The Other Side of Fear
The most important life hack you'll need: A Holistic Guide to Get You Unstuck.
Self improvement topics covering mental health, trauma, limiting beliefs, mindset, spirituality, energy healing, mindfulness, and purpose.
The Other Side of Fear explores thought provoking stories about the types of fears that are triggered by our individual insecurities, conditioning and traumas. We examine the role of societal conventions and how they function as a strong determinant, in how we often choose to address our most personal struggles.
Our guests discuss how they navigate through various challenges, while taking ownership of their true desires. Giving you a gentle push, to live in a way that honors your authenticity. What does it mean to lean into fear? How can we recreate our stories and embrace the unknown? What does the other side of fear look like for you?
This is a reminder that, your fears are as big and as scary as you allow them to be. Your purpose is greater than the fear that hinders you.
Are you ready to unlearn and undo the old programs and reconnect with your truth?
The Other Side of Fear
Rising Above the Echoes of a Narcissist's Control | with Dana S. Diaz
Key Takeaways:
- Trust your gut!
- At any given moment, you can choose to take your power back.
- The path to healing requires coming back to yourself, reconnecting with and re-establishing the most authentic version of yourself.
Imagine the strength it takes to break free from the suffocating grip of a narcissist. Dana Diaz, author of "Gasping for Air," joins us to share her courageous journey—a tale that echoes the experiences of countless others who have endured similar battles. Tracing Dana's path from a childhood steeped in emotional distress to a marriage that tested her very soul, this episode delves into the nuanced process of reclaiming self-worth after years of manipulation.
Dana doesn't just recount her story; she offers a beacon of hope for anyone navigating the treacherous waters of co-parenting with a narcissistic ex-partner. Her resilience in the face of her ex-husband's relentless attempts to undermine her is a testament to the power of maintaining one's dignity and prioritizing a child's happiness.
Wrapping up, we reflect on the critical importance of listening to our instincts when it comes to forming connections with others. Dana's own tale serves as a profound reminder to trust our gut feelings and embrace the healing that comes from a journey toward self-acceptance. Her book is not just a personal narrative but a resource and a shared space for those who seek solace and understanding in their own stories of overcoming narcissistic abuse.
Visit Dana's website to purchase her book, read her blog about narcissistic abuse and related topics, and take the quiz to find out if you are in a relationship with a narcissist.
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All health and mental health topics within the content of this body of work are for informational, discussion, reflective, and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this work are not intended to be a substitute for medical or professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
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Hey, there you're listening to the Other Side of Fair Podcast, where we talk about how personal affairs has hindered your ability to take that next step that will get you to where you aspire to be. What will it take for you to stop playing small and start playing big? Let's get into it. In this episode we're speaking about an experience with narcissistic abuse, which is a type of emotional abuse that can create a certain level of confusion and internal conflict for any individual who has experienced it. So dealing with a narcissist, whether it be a parent or a partner, can really have you questioning your reality at times, because the tactics used by narcissists tend to interfere with your own perception of reality.
Kertia:Let's just say, the truth is easily obscured and for anyone who has experienced this, I'm sure you've often found yourself questioning your own perception, like am I crazy? Am I overreacting? Maybe there really is something wrong with me, maybe I'm the problem. So today, Dana Diaz, author of the best selling book "Gasping for Air, the stranglehold of narcissistic abuse, touches on her own personal journey and how she regained control of her life. Okay, dana, thank you for being here with me today, really excited about this conversation.
Dana:Well, thank you for having me. I'm very excited too.
Kertia:Awesome. So you spoke about surviving abuse, primarily narcissistic abuse, throughout your life, not only in marriage, but also in childhood.
Dana:Yes.
Kertia:So your marriage lasted nearly three decades. What was that journey like?
Dana:It was long and miserable, honestly, but it was necessary, I believe, for me to go through all that, I guess, to figure out that I was the one in control all along, even though I had released my control out of fear, to the first with my mother and stepfather and well, not that you have a choice as a child but then in my marriage. But it's interesting when I looked back and I thought, how did we get from point A to point B? Because it was, we started out okay, not great, but we ended with major domestic violence and him threatening my life and telling people he was planning to kill me, like, how do you get from here to there? But I think I needed to go through all that, as awful as it was, to rediscover myself and to realize self-love that I never had before Because, obviously, coming out of a childhood where I was physically and verbally abused, I had no self-esteem, I had no self-worth.
Dana:I mean, I was told almost daily by my stepfather that nobody ever wanted me, nobody ever would love me, I was a bother and a burden and I wondered why I even existed, honestly. So it was necessary. But I'm glad to say that I'm standing here at, you know, 47 years old, that, yeah, the first half of my life wasn't how I would have liked it to be, but I now am standing firm and tall and proud of who I am and what I have become, and I am living a life that is fulfilling and true to my purpose and true to who I am. So it all works out.
Kertia:That is so interesting, such a huge reminder that your childhood trauma has so much effect on the trajectory of your life. Because, of course, going through that in childhood, having your primary caregivers speak that onto you, of course it sets you up for situations whereby you attract that or whereby you, even when you meet someone and they seem great, you miss so many of the red flags. And I can speak to that because I've been through that whereby maybe I wasn't told right out that your worth is low or you know what I mean. I wasn't told outright. But a lot of situations that I was presented with as a child it made me feel that way, made me feel that I wasn't enough, made me feel that I wasn't accepted, absolutely. I felt like the outsider looking in a lot of the times.
Dana:That's literally what it feels like and I can relate to all of that immensely. At one point, as a matter of fact, when my mother and stepfather were pregnant with their own child, my stepfather actually said to me that when that child was born, that I was not a part of their family, that they were going to be a family and I was not a part of it. And I've struggled, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I've come so far in my healing so far, but gosh, that sense of belonging, it's all I ever wanted, just to belong to a family, a group, but to have my tribe, so to speak. And I still struggle with that. I always have this sense that I don't fit in and I don't belong. Even where I might, I perceive that I don't because I have internalized. I think when actions or words or both create this idea about who we are, when we're so young, we internalize it that there's nothing anyone can say or do that can make us think otherwise.
Kertia:Yeah, you're exactly right. For you, the words were spoken explicitly to you. For me, it was the words weren't spoken explicitly to me, but the actions of the person, the actions of my parents, my mom and my stepdad at the time. It created those beliefs. I internalized that to believe that I am an outsider, I am not enough. And now I'm in this cycle where I feel like I need to prove myself, to prove that I'm deserving of love and acceptance. So that is something that I hugely identify with and that, of course, also affected the relationships that I got in, because it really affected my decision-making. Oh, of course, the feeling that you meet that gives you a little bit of love, a little bit of affection. You kind of cling to that person because you're so not used to getting that I'm not laughing at you.
Dana:by the way, I'm laughing because I'm actually in the process of revising my second book, which is about my childhood. I just finished a chapter yesterday with a boyfriend in high school that he broke up with me because he said I was clingy. But I was. There's no denying it and honestly I'm remarried now. But the thing about being clingy is it can be seen as a bad thing or it can be seen as a good thing, because my husband now loves that. He says I just feel like you're so into me all the time. So it can have a positive thing. When you're with a partner that's your best friend and they treat you well and it's a good situation, clingy can be okay, it's not a bad thing.
Dana:We have to stop beating ourselves up for what we've become because of our circumstances. I think that's the most important thing to take away that we're not broken, we're not damaged, we're not all these awful things that people call themselves Stuff happened to us, but what it comes down to is that what happened to us and how it affected us isn't always pleasant, but it wasn't because there was something inside of us that really was defective. It was because other people have unhealed trauma that they didn't deal with and they projected it onto us. They put the burden of their unhealed trauma on us, on our hearts and in our minds, so that we had to carry their shame and we had to carry their guilt and resentment and whatever it was that they hadn't dealt with in their lives. And I think when you can look at it that way and realize, wait, it's not me, it actually really is them and I don't have to carry that anymore because it gets heavy.
Dana:It's a heavy load to carry. I mean I hate when people say let it go Like I'm trying to not, let it go on purpose, like I don't want to be like this or do this, but I think that at some point you have to tell yourself it's okay to release it Forgive yourself. You don't have to get into forgiveness. I'm not big on that. I believe in forgiving ourselves for taking on what other people should not have burdened us with.
Kertia:Absolutely, absolutely. I know a lot of people that I've spoken to on this podcast. They really drive that home. That forgiveness is really for you. Right, it's really for you. It doesn't mean that you re-invite someone into your life. It doesn't mean that you need to have a relationship with the person in order to try to reconcile and heal things. Access for you is for your own personal healing.
Dana:Exactly Tag along to what you were saying earlier. I think most people that have some kind of issue in their childhood do carry that into adult relationships. I think that's the part where the forgiveness for ourselves comes in, because we were trained in our childhood. I could relate 100% to the not being good enough. My God, the whole reason my brother was born. I hate to say it, but it was because I wasn't enough, I was somehow deficient as a child, that they replaced me. Talk about feeling like I'm not good enough. How horrible is that that I'm not only replaced but then removed from this new little family they have. That's torturous to a person's soul. How do you deal with that?
Dana:The thing about the forgiveness is that we, as people that were diminished or subdued or not accepted or felt like we didn't belong because of how we were raised and how people treated us, we go into the world where people pleases. We are clingy, we're codependent, we're all these labels they like to put on us. The reality is, yes, we need for people to like us. We will almost do anything, like dogs begging for treats. I'll give you my paw Roll over. Just give me a little treat. Just give me a little crumb of affection, give me a little crumb of kindness, just anything, because that's what we need. We just need somebody to validate that we're worthy and deserving of that, so that we can maybe feel a little bit of that for ourselves. But the forgiveness comes in for us when we can say that it just was not us, it was what people did, but that we don't have to be perfect. We're enough exactly how we are. It was never that we were not good enough. It was that we weren't good enough for the people who were projecting their judgment on us. Basically, but we are enough. And when we can stop beating ourselves up and stop being perfect, then that's when we can give ourselves that forgiveness, so that we can kind of and again I hate to use the words let go but release some of that burden on our hearts, because we're the ones holding on to it and we have the power to let it go.
Dana:I had the same conversation with my husband the other night, because I don't even know what led to it. But he said something and I said yeah, I know, I'm a perfectionist, I'm the one that I get overwhelmed and I get anxious, because I just strive to be the best and I'm competitive and I don't want to do something any less than what I'm capable of doing. And so I push myself and I push my limits and I push myself beyond what my body and my mind are telling me. Like, even when I know I need to rest and give it a break, I won't because I just can't. I can't stop till it's perfect, and that's part of that always feeling like it wasn't enough and it was never going to be enough, and because I'm always going to try to be better. So, but again, this is something that can be a good thing or it can be a not so good thing. It just depends how you look at it and how you manage it in your own life.
Kertia:Yeah, it's learning to identify and acknowledge those things, those trends and traits that are coming from your trauma and your conditioning, and then finding a way to manage it, because it doesn't just go away. Regardless of how much healing and self-work that you do, these things don't just go away. They can improve and you can learn to manage them better, so that it doesn't become a burden on you and your life.
Dana:Exactly. I mean, it's just a matter of coming to terms with it or accepting it. You know, I always say it's kind of like any kind of illness or whatever. Maybe people have a bad knee and you learn how to walk just right so the knee doesn't hurt so much. You know what I mean? It's kind of the same thing. It's always going to be there, it's never going to go away, and that's something that I'm having a pretty harsh reality right now, like I said, working on this book about my childhood, that I've actually done a lot of work and I thought I was much further along with accepting and dealing with it all than I really am.
Dana:But now that I'm kind of going back into the past and remembering things and really diving into them so that I can verbalize it for readers and make it come to life, it's just, oh, I am noticing now where I still have areas I need to heal in. It still affects me. I mean I can be writing and just I can break down crying. It'll affect my mood. So it's hard, but I think, yeah, we all come to terms with it somehow and it's all about perspective. Again, just like with the verbiage we use with ourselves, we have to be careful of it. But I think also learning about it and relating and connecting with other people who have been through similar situations it'll just give us some perspective.
Dana:My husband can tell me all day long that I'm lovable and how great I am and give me a million compliments, but I'm not going to believe them, right. I can't just take his word because of course, many of us also come out of those situations being very untrusting and sometimes we don't even trust ourselves. We doubt our own opinions and our own beliefs and we question everything and we're hyper aware of everything around us. And it's a lot. It's an overwhelming situation to be in for your mind and your body. And you know, I talked to a trauma nurse a couple of weeks ago. She also had some situations in her childhood and then in her first marriage and she said that in her experience, if her eyes were open, taking in all the stimuli, there was pain, there was trauma there, and the only time that she could get a break from it all is if her eyes were closed when she was resting. And that was just such a poignant thing to say, because it's true, it really is.
Kertia:It is so telling how much our childhood and early learning affects the relationships that we get in, and I can say that it definitely affected my yeah, I'm with you, girl.
Dana:Trust me, there's a lot of. It's unfortunate, and I've even read studies that say that by the time we're about six or seven years old at the latest, we're sort of hardwired to understand our roles and the roles of, let's say, a mother or a father. You know different things in life and if you think about it, my gosh, that's early. It's really discouraging to think that. But I also think that, again, we have control over how we think about.
Dana:You know, it's kind of like the glass half full, it's like a tongue twister or the glass half empty. You know, it's how you look at it and people can say, oh, that's like brainwashing yourself. But you know what? Sometimes you do need to shift your perspective and you have to have control of that so that you can live a better life, because nobody, nobody, really wants to live with all the doom and gloom and all the shame and guilt and the burdens of all that. It's painful, it's awful and it affects your health too. So it's not fun and nobody wants to be that way. But ignoring it isn't going to solve anything either.
Kertia:Yes, speaking of shift in your perspective, how can you say fair played a role in your inability to separate yourself from that situation you were in in your first marriage?
Dana:I don't think I really was able to separate myself in my first marriage. It actually took me getting physically ill before I kind of realized and it was just one question, honestly, that I asked myself and I challenge everybody to ask themselves. I just remember thinking what do I want? Because I was laying there thinking this life just was, I was living somebody else's life, he was dictating everything about it, everything was in his control. I submitted to him, not because I'm submissive, but because it was easier than fighting and I needed some peace for my own sanity and that of our son. And so I just went along with things just to keep the peace. But when I finally just said what do I want, I knew immediately what I want. I wanted to use my degree in journalism. I went to school to be a writer, I mean, and I'd never been a writer. He had me scrubbing toilets and floors, cleaning houses in a small town far from the city that I grew up in, and he just diminished me. But when I thought, no, I want to be a writer and I still can be, and I want to travel, he didn't even allow me barely to go to the grocery store to grab milk or cat food because I was apparently screwing somebody if I left the house aside from work or church although he fought me on church as well. But he just put me in these limiting circumstances. But I realized, in asking myself what I wanted, that I had said that he kept me in those circumstances all that time. He had all these rules, he had all these restrictions on me. He put the bounds on me. But you know what? It was me. It was me. I thought there was a collar and a leash on me, but I was the one that put it there. I kept it there, I stayed there and when I realized that I had the same power to release myself, it was amazing what happened. It's just been three years actually since I've been divorced and funny thing happened is I published a book. I'm publishing two more books next year. I'm a writer In less than three years.
Dana:Out of that situation, I'm remarried to a longtime friend and you know what I'm actually happy, amazing. I couldn't have been happy with my ex and the traveling my husband. Now we travel all over the world all the time. He always says where do you want to go next? It's like our little secret with each other is when we're on the plane coming home from a trip, he'll say where do you want to go next? That's our thing, and I'll think about it and I'll pick a place and we plan the next trip.
Dana:So anybody, anybody can realize their full potential and realize what they want. They just have to want it. And that's the trick of it, because there are people who are in limiting circumstances and I understand abuse. The abusers intimidate us and they put fear in us and they threaten us and we don't think we can make it and we worry about how are we going to pay for a house or an apartment? How are we going to feed our kids? We can't leave behind a pet, whatever it is.
Dana:But guess what? When you get out, you realize there are all these people in the world who would give the clothes off their back for you. They would put you at their table and feed you. They would shelter you and your children if you needed shelter. There are resources out there and there are a lot of good people still left in this world that nobody's going to let anybody suffer. So I think we have to. It's kind of like how I said before we're the ones that are putting all this pressure on ourselves and feeling like we can't or we won't, or we need to or whatever it is. But it's all in us. We have the power to change things.
Kertia:Yeah, it's so difficult. I think where the difficulty is is that in those relationships you are so disempowered. You have no power, no self esteem, no self confidence, and when your mind is still in that space, it's nearly impossible for you to come out of it Exactly. You get to that breaking point whereby you literally have no choice, right.
Dana:Yes and no. I think it's a matter, I mean, like, for me, getting sick was that's always the funny part for me, and I have to laugh at myself. It wasn't when he swung a crowbar at my head or the knife he kept next to him to keep me in line, or you know any of the gazillion things that he did that I should have said that's unacceptable. It was when I got sick as a result of the chronic stress doctors called it of living in an abusive situation, that I finally asked myself that question, because I was like I don't want to live like this, you know. So what do I want? But the key to that question is that I saw it. Every one of us.
Dana:If we say what do I want, we know what we want and you don't have to have a list of things. You don't have to tell a genie three different things that you want. Right, this second. But if you've envisioned something, once you answer that question, you cannot unsee what you've realized. And when you have that in your mind, it just doesn't go away. And so then you begin, even unconsciously, starting to enact those little baby steps towards those goals. And then you get there and you're like, oh my gosh, I can do something. I am capable. I do have the power in me to do that, so it's a really cool thing, but I agree with you, it's hard. And again we go back to.
Dana:People have to want it, because there are people that remain in abusive situations or even if they're not being abused necessarily, they're in controlled situations where they have no power. But they want to be there and I have to say my mother is one of them. We are estranged, but that's because her husband put the final divide. She told me she could not be my mother and be his wife and she chose to be his wife because she liked her house and she likes her car and she likes walking into any store she wants and buying whatever she wants. She likes her life, and so she sacrificed me. Is that sad and disgusting? Yes, and I've cried many tears over it.
Dana:But the reality is is there are a lot of people that they don't want the power, and I think that's why she and I could never see eye to eye. Because even as a little girl I'm realizing and writing this book that I was always very strong willed and very opinionated, and I would stand up to my stepfather, even when I was five, six, seven years old you know the tiny little thing I was. I would tell him no, sir, you don't get to talk to me that way, you don't get to treat me that way. I'd even stand up for my mother and say you can't talk to my mother that way, you can't treat her that way. But my mother never stood up for herself and by the time I was a teenager I stopped defending her because she wanted to be there. She doesn't want to leave.
Kertia:Yeah, you mentioned specifically that you endured narcissistic abuse. Can you tell us what that is?
Dana:Yes, it's actually very simple. It's exactly what it sounds like it's when a narcissist abuses you. And what narcissists do, and what makes it the most traumatizing form of abuse, is that they will use any form of abuse, and sometimes all forms of abuse, so it can be physical, verbal, psychological, legal abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse. They will employ any tactic they can to get what they want out of you, because, basically, a narcissist is using you to fulfill their ego in some way. Maybe you come from a family with a few bucks and it entitles them to have these status, name brand things they want to have, or better cars, better places to live, whatever. Maybe it's just subservience that they want and us being people-pleasers and codependents. I mean, when I first got with my ex, that was like serving me up on a silver platter, because whatever he said, he said jump. I said how high? Because I knew it would get me a reward. It's just that towards the end I realized I didn't have to do that, that other people found me just perfectly fine, exactly how I was, and that I didn't have to earn anything. I could just be who I was and be worthy and deserving of the love that he would only give me if I performed for him, so to speak.
Dana:But it can come in so many things. There's just so much. It's different for everybody, but it's not different for everybody. You know, the one thing that I never really experienced in my childhood. My stepfather was obviously an overt narcissist, but he only physically and verbally abused me More verbal than physical, but still made a huge impact on still to this day, on who I am and what I deal with my ex. I experienced everything except and this is where we teeter except the physical abuse. Except he was physically aggressive. He just never actually made contact with me for me to have black eyes or marks on my body, like when I was a kid I'd go to school with handprints on my neck or on my arms or bruises on my forehead from my head being banged against the wall or beaten with the phone for trying to call for help, things like that. So again, I hear stories from so many people, and there's definitely a spectrum too.
Dana:I was, I think, somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of narcissistic abuse, whereas I've heard just horrific stories of what some people have gone through, from being locked in rooms, dark rooms, for days, without a window or food or water or anything. People can be chained. But then there's very on the other end, less severe, where I remember a girl that worked with me years ago said that she couldn't go to bed without performing certain sexual favors every night for the man she was with and there were other things that he was doing financially and legally to keep her in that situation. But it's a little different for everybody. But, boy, it can really mess with you and who you are I mean to be controlled in any way is just so demeaning, because we're all meant to be who we are and in the right fertile soil we can blossom and grow. And that's theoretically how or any relationship is supposed to be, whether it's a parental relationship or a romantic relationship. But it just doesn't go that way for some people.
Kertia:It's so sad because, having gone through that you personally as a child, having gone through such horrific treatment from your parents and then to then marry someone who treats you like that and who created a situation whereby you were completely disempowered In the moment you spoke about narcissistic abuse creating confusion and conflict, I can't imagine how much that created this space in your mind where you were just further sunken in that dark space. In that dark place, having already gone through so much from childhood Right. What does this do to the psyche? What does this do to you mentally? It?
Dana:completely screws with you. The thing about narcissists is they put on this mask in public, so the rest of the world. They're funny, they're charming, they're even humble. Sometimes People think they're great, yes, and then they're at home and I always called my ex Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but the problem is you don't know at any given second who you're getting.
Kertia:Yeah.
Dana:When are your]. I have a man telling me he loves me, telling me I'm beautiful, and just thinking everything's fine. And the next second it could be. Something is flying across the room at me, or he's screaming in my face, seething, spitting, and I'm cowering back because I think he's actually going to punch me this time or do something. Or you're constantly negotiating, like who am I with? Who is this person really? Are they really this good person? Am I just provoking this other side, or are they really this bad person? And they're putting on a front.
Dana:You don't know. You just don't know and honestly, I still don't know. That's the problem, and I can say that for my mother and stepfather and I can say that about my ex. All I know is it really screws me up because there's no consistency and that unpredictability makes you hyper vigilant and hyper aware and you can sense a shift in a mood or the energy in the room and it just makes you like a cat. Your claws go out and your ears go up and you're bracing yourself mentally and physically for like okay, what's going to happen now? Because you never know what's going to happen. You don't know if you're just going to be yelled at. You don't know if you're getting silent treatment. You don't know if you're going to end up dead. I'm not exaggerating To live like that.
Dana:So when I got sick and the doctors say, oh, it's because of chronic stress, well, yeah, it's a little stressful, I mean even at night sleeping. I couldn't sleep in the same bed as my ex because things would happen at night. I was vulnerable if I fell asleep, so I couldn't sleep. I could not sleep in the same bed, I would sleep in my basement. I learned to put a two by four under the knob on the door or chair or something, because if he came down in the basement and I'm sleeping, I wear glasses and I didn't want to have to scramble for my glasses, or you know, I ended up getting a taser that I slept with.
Dana:But I felt the same way in my childhood. If I heard any slight creak of the floor or anybody at night, I mean I was like hyper alert and then I couldn't sleep all night. So then you're sleepy and you're tired and you're exhausted emotionally from having to worry about everything all the time and then, on top of it, you're kind of in this brain fog. So then you're questioning yourself am I just tired and irritable and delusional, like this person says I am. Am I really crazy, like they say, or are these things really happening? I mean, it's kind of surreal. So yeah, it's a lot. It just screws you up.
Kertia:It does, because I really connected with what you said there being so confused about who this person with, who am I with? I was in that situation before where this person that I was with he was charming in public. He was great, he was a great friend, he was always helpful, always good. Oh yeah, yeah, if his friends needed anything, he was always there he should offer them.
Dana:Don't drop anything for everybody. Yeah, yes.
Kertia:Yes, he will go the mile for his friends and they regarded him with such love and the way that they looked at him. He was just a great, magnificent, kindhearted, caring human being. Right, yes, and then I see that and at home they're chucky yeah. And you get home and it's a completely different person and you're just like what in the hell is this?
Dana:And then that's why nobody believes you, because when you finally have the courage to tell somebody or speak out, or if it's after the breakup, nobody believes you. Everybody sides with them and decides that you're crazy.
Kertia:Or they say well, what did you do to provoke him?
Dana:Yep.
Kertia:Like he's not this kind of person we know him to be this person?
Dana:Yeah, we're the monsters, yeah.
Kertia:He's always this wonderful, caring, kind, compassionate person that we know him to be. There is something that you must have done or that you must have said to make him act out of character.
Dana:Exactly, and they're also creating that narrative behind your back, even when things are good between you. Yeah, they're creating that narrative, whether it's him or her or whatever there's. You know, I know with my ex he was telling people that I was harassing him. I was the one abusing him, it was all me. Everything that he had done, I cheated on him. It was everything that he had done he was telling people I did. And I'm like no, it's the other way around.
Dana:But again, no, here you're upset, you're looking like the crazy person saying it's him, but they're out there looking with their little halos on their head, looking like angels, and nobody believes you. Yeah, but you have to get to the point where you just I mean honestly, people think I unfortunately still live in this small town that he drugged me out to. So let me tell you, rumors spread like you would not believe, and people will believe just about anything. And I'm at the point where I don't even care what people believe about me, because I know my truth and I am standing in it firmly, honestly, and I am not the final judge. I will let that to whoever it is, but people will find out in their own due time.
Kertia:Exactly, exactly.
Dana:I just have to surround myself with people that support me and encourage me and stand by my side. Those are my people, and they may be few. There are a lot fewer now because so many people sided with him, because I'm the one that supposedly did all these awful things. But the truth is the truth. There are police reports. I got wise and realized I had to actually make those police reports, and I loved when there were witnesses to things, because, you know, then it wasn't even me, it was other people saying, yeah, this is what he said or this is what he did. I saw this with my own eyes. So you just have to be firm in who you are and what your truth is and know that this is just how narcissists operate and they're not going to change. They don't think they have to change because there's nothing wrong with them. There's only something wrong with you, except there isn't.
Kertia:Exactly, exactly. I remember leaving that first relationship that I was in and there were numerous circumstances of him cheating and I remember when I was about to leave that relationship when I've just, it was just enough Like the verbal abuse eventually turned to physical abuse and the mental, emotional abuse was all there. So when I finally decided to walk away, he literally threatened that he would tell his family and everyone that I left him for another man, that I cheated on him. And, yeah, this is what I've always wanted to do. I had. No, I didn't want to be in a family setup because you know, from his culture, family and traditions are huge. So pretty much what he was threatening to do with literally scar me Right.
Dana:Oh yeah, well, they have to make you out to be bad. Ryan was also a drunk and he had actually admitted to me in the midst of the destruction at the end. He actually admitted to me because I said you know, I used to be so close to his family, particularly his mother and his sister, and they just went very cold and completely dissociated from me and I didn't understand why nothing had happened. And he admitted that. He said he told them atrocious lies about me to make sure that they hated me.
Kertia:Wow.
Dana:Because he felt that they liked me more than they liked him and he needed to make sure they hated me. But it's not even funny. But he was drunk and kind of forgot. You know that he had loose lips when he was drunk, so he admitted it to me. Was there a witness? No, so he can say. He never said that, but he did and I won't ever forget that. I could actually tell you the date he said it. I remember the date and the year and where we were and everything, because it was shocking and it hurt me because I didn't have.
Dana:You know, coming from my childhood, I'm estranged from my mother and stepfather. My brother doesn't talk to me anymore either because he buys their lies about me and it's just. His family was my family, they were the only family that I felt I had and he took that away from me because he knew how to hurt me. And that's the thing about narcissists they know how to get you, they know how to make you pay and that's what you fear. It's not, I mean, it's, it's all this other fear, but they know where to get you. And then if you have children with them, that's a whole other ball game, because if you ever do try to leave or leave. That's where the legal stuff comes in. A lot of the time is threatening that they're going to make sure you never see your kids again. They're going to make sure that they get custody of these kids that usually they don't even have any interest in or never even wanted, but they want to make you pay for offending them.
Kertia:Yep, I remember having so many conversation with this ex of mine, who I do have a childhood, and he tried to use her against me in so many ways and I had to make sure that I had everything set up legally to make sure that there is nothing that he could do. He even in situations regarding her growing up. After that, by the time she was three years old, we were already broken up and there are so many things he would do to spite me through her. Whenever, I would try to check him on it and say, like everything that you're doing to spite me, you're actually hurting her.
Kertia:What he would say to me is yeah, what he would say to me is well, this is your doing, this is your fault. And she's going to have to suffer because you decided to break the family. That's exactly what he said to me.
Dana:Oh, I believe it because that's the problem.
Kertia:She is going to suffer because I decided to break the family.
Dana:Right, and that was the thing, the funny part of my breakup with my ex. It was about 15 years coming, but I actually came home from work one day and I looked around because there were things like missing, like knickknacks and pictures and things, and then the bed sheets and the pillows and the blankets. I realized he just he was a coward. He up and moved in the middle of the day while I was at work. And then my son walked in from school or work, wherever he was at, and he looked around and I thought what a coward. He knew I was getting ready to leave. I had already talked to an attorney, but he left so that he could tell everyone he had to leave because I was insufferable and I was harassing him. But then he went and told our son that, oh well, your mom filed for divorce.
Dana:I'm like I I didn't actually. I talked to an attorney but I haven't filed anything, you know. But that's what they do, and I mean honestly. My son's 20 years old now and I won't play the game with him, though it's one of the hardest things I've had to deal with. My son believes things about me that his dad has told him that are not true, but I realized that one what's between me and my ex has my son does not need. He doesn't need that. I just want him to be a kid.
Dana:I mean, to me 20 is a kid, sorry if I offend anyone, but you know he was 17 at the time, though you know when this was all going down, but I just wanted him to live his life, be a senior in high school, go to college, do your thing. You don't need to worry about this function between me and your dad, and I'm not going to defend myself to lies. I'm not going to participate in it, I'm not going to give it energy, I'm not going to give it any more life than it deserves, because it's all ridiculous and over exaggerated and it's all about, again, the narcissist not taking accountability.
Dana:So, I just have to live with the fact that my son thinks things about me that are not true, that are probably horrendous, that probably affect our relationship they have a little bit. But I also trust that his dad is going to say or do something at some point and my son will become enlightened, because at that age, when they're older, they have to come to their own decisions about things. And the one thing that I know my son knows about me, regardless of anything he's heard, is that I have always been the consistent and stable parent, no matter the rumors about me being crazy and bipolar and I harass and abuse and all these things. Has he ever seen that? No, what he has seen is his dad leave us multiple times, multiple. He has seen his dad leave us for other women multiple times. He has seen his dad abuse, alcohol abuse, drugs, drain us financially.
Dana:I mean, I could go on and on about the havoc that that man put us through. But what did I always do? I worked hard, I stayed positive. When it came to my son, I was smiling and made sure his life never, ever got affected by what was going on in our house and whatever his dad was doing, I sacrificed whatever I had to sacrifice on my end of things to make sure I could maintain whatever sense of normalcy I could for my son and stability, and he knows that. And when he needs something you know, or serious you know, or major life things or whatever, when it's something he needs an actual parent. For who does he come to at 20 years old? He comes to mom Because he knows mom is the one that will take care of him, that will be there for him, that will give him sound advice, guide him correctly, you know, and thank God and I'm not saying this as a diss to his dad but his dad will always be a five year old and a 40-some year old man's body and he does not have the capability of thinking outside of himself. So thank God that I have been able and I'm not sure how, because it's not like I had good role models for parents, but my parents showed me exactly how I didn't want to be. So I just do the exact opposite with my son and I don't know if I just got lucky or what. I did work, but I'm very proud of the man my son has become because he has come out of everything for the most part unscathed.
Dana:I mean, I'm sure there's some underlying trauma in there somewhere, but he is very good at what he does it. He's very successful at his job. He has a lot of friends, he's very close to family, even, unfortunately, my mother and stepfather, which I have a hard time with because it feels disloyal. But he has a very good sense of himself and I want him to. I want him to have that independence to be who he wants to be and to feel things out and learn things for himself in the world, instead of hovering over him and dictating to him how it should be, like it had been done to me. So I sit back, I watch things. I don't like everything, but I know that when he needs me I'm here. He knows when he needs me, I'm here and I'm just always going to be, even though he has a dad, I'm always going to be a single parent Always was, always will be.
Kertia:Yeah, I totally get that and I really something that you said stuck out to me when we were speaking of having this experience being abused by someone who is narcissistic. One thing about someone like that is they always have the need to control the narrative. When you were speaking about the lies and the misrepresentation of you, they always feel the need, they need that to control the narrative and they will do any and everything, Anything, To make sure that they control the narrative. Right, they love having control in general of everything else, but the narrative is really what feeds them.
Dana:But it has to be because they have trapped you, so to speak, for a certain purpose there is something you're providing to them that they just it's like a drug they cannot live without, whatever that is.
Dana:So they cannot risk you having your own thoughts, your own opinions. They don't want you having friends. They don't even want you talking to your family. They don't want you getting influenced by people at work. Lord, my ex, he didn't even like me going on the internet. He would get angry. I mean to the point where it was just easier for me to just not even go. I didn't even have a smartphone. Do you know that I had one of those 3G little flip phone things because I couldn't have access to other people or other information? And I'm a writer, I like to read. He didn't like me reading books. He would get so angry if I read books Because, god forbid, I have any influence in my mind that would give me any empowerment or any sense of myself.
Dana:They have to minimize and diminish you to exactly. They have to put you in this little box of what you're supposed to be to them and that's all you can be. You cannot be anything else. It's like putting a seed in the ground and trapping that seed in the dirt, not letting it grow. No sunshine, no water, no nothing, just keeping it in that little box. Is it going to grow? No, it's not snacking a bloom. It's not going to look pretty, that's what it feels like and it's a terrible thing.
Kertia:Yeah, exactly, you said a few things there and you really just touched on some of the red flags even that people can look out for, especially speaking to people who are younger. I know older people go through it. I'm in my mid 30s and I just I came out of the relationship when I was in my mid 20s. It can happen to anyone. No one is immune to abuse, and so I'd like to talk a little bit more about what are some of the other red flags that we can identify when we are dating, when we are seeking to partner with someone.
Dana:Everybody has a different life perspective and I mean certainly, I think, anybody that's trying to control you and, like I just said, and which you acknowledge, if they have a problem with the primary people in your life. They don't like your friends, they don't like your family, they don't want to go to your family, they don't. That's a big issue. But I think really what we need to really look at, instead of looking at red flags in them, is to listen to ourselves, because our gut will tell us it doesn't matter who you meet, whether it's somebody on a date or somebody at the store, even when you're cashing out at the Walmart or whatever, you're getting vibes from people. And this isn't like hoodoo-goo-doo stuff Like this is just generally how life is, they say. You make your first impression of somebody within like two seconds or something of meeting them. Every person you come across, you make a judgment, you get a vibe. That's why you'll meet somebody and you'll be like oh my gosh, you just click with them, like they can finish your sentences, you're aligned and thought and morals and everything else. And other people you're like yeah, I like them, we'll go out for coffee or whatever, but we're not connected like where pieces of the puzzle that should fit together. And then there's other people you're like man, I don't know what it is, but there's something about that person that I can't put my finger on. But they just rub me wrong or I just don't like them, you know, or whatever it is. And then there's, of course, the people that we're like oh my God, we're holding up our fingers like a cross, like stay away from me. But we have to. That's what I tell people to listen to, because we apply these things in life. You know the people. Let's say, like your best friend, or maybe it's a family member you're closer to than your other. It's because you click. But when we're going out in the world looking for a romantic partner, why don't we apply that same aspect to our love life? Why don't we wait to click with somebody? Why is it that we try so hard? We excuse things, we enable things, we go along, we tolerate a lot, because we want the relationship to work, we want this to be the person. Why, why can't we just wait till we click? I mean, even if it's not in the timing that we wanted in, isn't it better than spending, like I did, 25 years with somebody that I didn't even like the first time I met him and I didn't like him much after that either, and he didn't like me. But we spent 25 years of our lives together. Why didn't I wait to just click with somebody? I was 19. What was I thinking? Was you know? I thought I was going to be an old maid is what happened.
Dana:But red flags are just, I think, a personal thing. So I think people just need to listen to themselves. If you have a certain idea of a type of person you want to be with, look for that person and don't settle. Get outside your little bubble of life where you run into people, expand and I'm sorry, I'm not trying to diss anybody who has found somebody online but match and what. I don't even know all these websites where you find dates. But that's not the answer. You know you're hoping somebody's being honest to be able to even be matched with them.
Dana:Go out and experience people Live. When that person comes across your path in the time that they're supposed to, they'll be there and you'll know it. But stop trying to apply and force things and look for things and just wait it out. But red flags just stay away from anybody who is just not a nice person, or for me it might be different than for you, but I don't like angry people. I don't like negative people. I don't like people that have to brag about everything they have and have to have name brand everything and show off their watch, and I don't like people that mistreat others or feel superior. Superiority is definitely a narcissistic thing. I think you should treat the person sweep in the floors the same as you treat the CEO. We're all human, but just follow your gut.
Kertia:Yeah, I definitely agree with that Following your gut. Because usually even for me, coming across partnerships, friendships, anything like that, even family members, when I can feel in my body that I don't feel good being around this person, I don't really like them very much. For whatever reason, I am not clicking with them, I don't vibe with them and at first you don't know why, right.
Kertia:But later on, getting to know them over time, then you begin to understand why you had those feelings before, why those initial feelings came up for you why you just didn't vibe with them or there was just something about them that you didn't like or you couldn't stand, or you just didn't enjoy being around them, and that thing usually reveals itself over time, and so that's why it's so important to follow your gut, follow your intuition and trust it Exactly. So I love that. That was a very, very good thing to point out. I just wanna end with, because you've had such a journey how can someone who's experienced anything like you have begin the journey to heal in?
Dana:I think the first thing and probably the most important thing to do is just enjoy being who you are and allow yourself to be who you are. And people will call this all kinds of things. I think it falls under self-care or rediscovering. But it's just little things Like if you wanna paint your nails red because red is my favorite color, I'm gonna paint my nails red because it makes me happy when I look and I, even if I'm not going anywhere, or maybe I wanna wear that lipstick, or I'm gonna go buy myself a new outfit. I'm gonna have a pint of ice cream for dinner instead of cooking whatever else I thought I should eat. Just indulge yourself, Because I think if you can indulge those little whims, it's kinda like making a little deposit in the happy jar. And when you're filling your soul with those little joys just those little minuscule joys that cost nothing and they take no effort you're gonna be in a better mind space and sort of have a better feel for who you are and learn to respect yourself and love yourself enough to go through the real hard work of the healing process, Because healing is no joke, it's awful.
Dana:It's awful. I always joke that. I think people think healing is like you go and talk to somebody and then one day you wake up like somebody waved a magic wand over you and you're suddenly skipping and smiling and it's sunshine and rainbows. And that's nowhere near what it's like. No, it's an awful place to be. But I think that if you can go into it feeling better about who you are and feeling better about yourself in general and, like I said, it's small things Talk about listening to yourself.
Dana:When I'm tired, I tend to push myself and overwork, but you know what, If I wanna take a nap at two in the afternoon doesn't mean I'm lazy. It doesn't mean I'm unmotivated, Means my mind needs some rest. So I give that to myself now. And if I want to go have a glass of wine with a friend, you know what I'm gonna go do that. I'm gonna take that break. I'm gonna give myself permission to enjoy life and to give myself those moments of joy, because so much joy has been stolen from me. But I think when you are honest with yourself about what you want and you indulge it, you become who you are. You're authentic and there's something really liberating and being who you really are instead of trying to be what somebody else wants you to be.
Kertia:Yes, exactly, I love what you said there about giving yourself those small allowances, allowing yourself to indulge. It's definitely a start. It's definitely a start to the healing journey, because the healing journey requires you to come back to yourself in so many ways and it starts out with the smallest thing Allowing yourself to take that nap if you need it. Exactly, you're not lazy. Allowing yourself to drink a glass of wine there is nothing wrong with that. Allowing yourself to do your hair and get your nails done. All those small allowances, they mean something too, and when you've been robbed, when you've been denied those small things, they add up and they do so much for you over time. So much for you, and the smaller things gradually leads to the bigger things. And so that coming back to yourself, it's so important in the healing journey, because the healing journey it's not pretty, as you said, it's not fun and roses. Most of the days are not sunny. No Right, no, they're not. It's a painful process.
Dana:They're dreary and awful, it's very painful, but I think if you're able to stand on your own to feed and affirm in who you are and just coming from a better mindset, meaning you've rediscovered some part of who you are so that you're able to face it with a little more strength and a little more resilience, like, okay, part of me is back. Yeah, it might just be enclosed in nail polish or what I'm choosing to eat, or deciding I'm going to go take a walk every morning to clear my mind. Whatever it is, it's just going to put you in a better place. Because if you try to take on all the pain and it's just a nasty, nasty thing to go through healing and to dive back into those dark places and really analyze them as much as you need to to get to process them correctly if you're going into it with still those ideas that you're unworthy and you're just not going to get anywhere, it's much more effective if you can feel some sense of yourself again.
Kertia:Yeah, allowing yourself to realize that you are deserving and through those little actions you are telling yourself you're actually. It's like the beginning of reprogramming that thinking Right, telling yourself, like I deserve this, it's okay if I have a pint of ice cream, it's okay if I have that wine, it's okay if I do this for myself today, because I do deserve it. Right. And then gradually you begin to retrain that thought process. Now you know you deserve even bigger and better. Exactly Right. So I love that.
Dana:And it gets easier.
Kertia:It gets easier.
Dana:You start and that's where your confidence is built. And then your self-esteem comes in and you start to stand up taller. And it's definitely a start, because not everybody can go through therapy as costly, not everybody has the ability and not everybody responds to traditional talk therapy too. You know, I did writing therapy. It was extremely effective, but I'm a writer and I know people who have done music therapy or dance, whatever it is. Just find your niche, but start with you.
Kertia:Yeah, start with you. I love that, and I just want you to talk a little bit about Gasping for Air. Tell the audience about it, where they can get it and how they can find you.
Dana:Yeah absolutely Gasping for Air is actually. It's the story of my 25-year relationship with my ex, from the day I met him till well after the divorce, from start to finish, and it certainly doesn't cover everything, but it's pretty comprehensive and a lot of people have unfortunately been able to relate to the experience. But it is available on. Most people go to Amazon anymore in eBook and print, or you can go to my website, danasdscom. The link for the book is on there, as well as my links for Facebook and Instagram if anybody wants to reach out Awesome.
Kertia:Thank you so much, Dana.
Dana:Thank you so much for having me.
Kertia:Thanks so much for listening. I've included a link to Dana's book in the show notes for those of you who would like to get to know the whole story. I'd also love to hear what you all thought about this episode on narcissistic abuse, and if you're currently going through it or have experienced it in the past. I'd definitely love to hear from you.
