Learning Through Our Emotions | with Malisa Hepner

Key Takeaways:

-  Understanding that other people's behavior rarely has anything to do with us.

- Self-love isn't about perfectionism but about acceptance of our humanity.

-  Recognizing the difference between thinking about emotions (intellectualizing) versus, truly feeling them.

Growing up with the highest possible score on the Adverse Childhood Experiences questionnaire, Malisa endured foster care, parental addiction, violence, and loss. For years, she operated as the "golden child," making decisions driven by spite and determination to defy expectations, believing she had somehow escaped unscathed. Until she didn't. When darkness finally caught up with her, Malisa discovered she had spent her entire adult life running from her feelings.

We explore the profound transformation that can occur when you finally allow yourself to feel. Through spiritual awakening and deep self-inquiry, she learned to quiet the noise of trauma and reconnect with herself. Her insights on shame narratives, emotional processing, and the shift from victimhood to self-responsibility offer practical wisdom for anyone struggling with their past.

One of the most touching revelations comes when Malisa discusses breaking free from the "strong" identity that many trauma survivors adopt. "I need to be tender," she shares, describing how exhausting it is to constantly wear strength as armor. This vulnerable admission opens up a powerful discussion about allowing ourselves to be soft in a world that often demands our hardness.

Whether you're a fellow trauma survivor, a helping professional, a spiritual seeker, or simply someone craving deeper emotional awareness, this episode offers compassionate insights on how we can all learn to embody our light – not by becoming someone new, but by fully embracing who we already are.

All links to our guest's work and official site

Connect with Malisa and her work via LinkTree  

Website ➡️https://empoweredwithmalisahepner.org

Instagram ➡️@malisa.hepner 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Malisa Hepner
• 2:17 Understanding Adverse Childhood Experiences
• 9:00 Turning Darkness into Purpose
• 14:14 The Spiritual Awakening
• 20:39 My Dead Mother Said What???
• 24:44 Recognizing Core Wounds
• 28:08 The Harm of Victim Consciousness
• 33:40 From Victimhood to Self-Responsibility
• 40:15 Emotionally Unavailable
• 46:17 Learning to Feel and Process Emotions
• 52:50 Finding Tenderness and Undoing "Strong"
• 57:12 We're Not So Different
• 1:01:27 True Love & Self Acceptance
• 1:05:16 Conclusion

Transcript

Kertia: 0:00

Hi guys, welcome, welcome to another week on the other side of fear podcast. This conversation was had with Malisa Hepner. It was so fun, so heartfelt. Malisa, she is a licensed therapist who is on a mission to help people quiet the noise of trauma, to reconnect with themselves and embody the light. I just love that. She's also the host of Emotionally Unavailable podcast, where she has deep, meaningful and transformative conversations just like this one, and she is just super passionate about helping others move past a lot of the things that keep us stuck, and this conversation, personally, was a reminder for me that we need to allow ourselves to be tender.

Kertia: 0:57

A lot of us, myself included, spent such a long time being strong that strong became the default operating system. But there is a time and place for that right, and I understand that we are not all exposed to or surrounded by safe environments or emotionally safe people. That allows us or even facilitate us being able to lean into our softness. But the least we can begin to do is to practice being tender and gentle with ourselves. Give yourself the space to feel your emotions, to be anything but strong, and then offer yourself compassion.

Kertia: 1:53

All right, let's get into it is there anything that particularly that you wanted to focus?

Kertia: 2:14

on, or you want to just let it rip.

Malisa: 2:16

Just let it rip, man, I'm good with anything.

Kertia: 2:17

Awesome , okay, so you mentioned, um, your childhood and you spoke about. You speak about adverse childhood experiences. I'd love for you to kind of give us the lay of the land with that so that we are, I guess, more familiar with what that means. I know we talk a lot about trauma, but we don't often particularly mention adverse childhood experiences and kind of like how deep that goes and what the impact of that could look like. So I'd love for you to get into that and you could go as far and as deep as you'd like to. I'm here to receive.

Malisa: 2:57

Yeah well, you know, I love starting with adverse childhood experiences or ACEs, just because I guess I thought it was a more familiar term than it actually is, and I'm glad to know like I'm already like thinking of someone else you should talk to also. But the thing is is that I think people overlook what can be considered traumatic.

Malisa: 3:25

And so adverse childhood experiences is a essentially a questionnaire that was developed to try to like put the the biggest hitting pieces of trauma that they could come up with in a very succinct way in a like the original was only like 10 questions, cause it was like 10 categories. Now listen, I'm going to be really honest. I'm not like fully educated on the history of this questionnaire or anything. The way I learned about that particular questionnaire is I was working in education at the time and a lot of the trauma informed practices come from that questionnaire. Unfortunately, I wasn't receiving that questionnaire from someone who was enough trauma informed, so they just kind of like handed it out to everyone Like this is what you know, we're having people look at and you need to look at this. And it was actually the very first time I made the connection of like yo, I'm just a grown kid. Like I should have been given a lot more warning before you handed me this piece of paper.

Malisa: 4:27

I didn't understand that it triggered me really bad either. I just knew I was nauseous and not feeling well. So it covers physical abuse, sexual abuse, incarceration of a parent, incarceration of a sibling, and then it kind of it pulls from basically those things into five other questions too. But it really covers like the biggest ways that you can experience trauma and it's a quick little measure like a five out of 10, 10 out of 10. I happen to have the highest score that you can get on the questionnaire and so I lead with that, because I did have a very extensive history of childhood trauma.

Malisa: 5:10

I was raised primarily in kinship, foster care with my grandma, but there was some outside of family care very early on in life, like before the age of one, and my parents were still involved in our lives. So it ranged in degree of involvement and, like my mom had a those are my babies approach, so she didn't care She'd come around, no matter how messed up she was or whatever. My dad was more of like I don't really want the babies to see me all jacked up they also had addictions to different types of substances that led to very different behaviors. Together they were incredibly violent. I think my dad was still drinking then and they both reacted very violently to alcohol. I think around the time they divorced is when he didn't drink anymore, but he still used heroin and all kinds of other stuff and then he died when I was 15 and all kinds of stuff with my siblings that I was raised with I have other half siblings from my dad, but I, as much as I love them and whatever they weren't a part of this childhood, because one

Malisa: 6:18

is way older and was living in a different state, and two were way younger and just had a totally different dynamic in their family. I mean, my step-mom was wonderful. I couldn't have asked for anyone better actually for me, for my sisters, for my dad. But I was raised mostly with my two brothers, one a year older, one a year younger, which actually, as a mother, gives me incredible empathy for why my mom couldn't be more successful, because I would not be able to raise three children that were little stair sets. I'm not going to lie. But she then died when I was almost 22 and married pregnant with my first kid from cirrhosis Well, from hep C and cirrhosis, and it was basically complications from those diseases.

Malisa: 7:01

She had esophageal varices, and so basically I had all this trauma and I remember, at like 19, being like I don't know. I just don't think my childhood really had an effect on me the way it did my brothers, cause they were already leading like very different lives than me.

Kertia: 7:16

And.

Malisa: 7:17

I'm kind of the I was the golden child, so I was making all the right decisions for all the wrong reasons and just like motivated by spite. You know, like cause. I'm not going to be the statistic you guys keep telling me I'm going to be.

Malisa: 7:29

And you know crazy family members with the just nonstop talking badly to kids about kids, you know whatever. So I had a lot to prove to myself and others or at least I felt like I did and that was really my key motivator, instead of like what's going to be a fulfilling life On the flip side of that, I've always considered myself really lucky because as a child, I believed my purpose was to endure these things, to then find the way on the other side and show others how to do that. I mean, before the age of five, I was solidly like this is my purpose, I'm going to make a difference in this world because of these experiences. And then, as I got a little older, I'm like was it a Lulu? Was I just coping? But the missions never change.

Malisa: 8:16

It's always felt the exact same and so that's kind of where I'm at now is I realized oh did have an effect did. At now is I realized oh did have an effect did, and a big one. I spent my whole adult life running from all of the feelings, from those experiences, and then I just reached a really profound period of darkness. And this is me on the other side of that and sharing my light with others.

Kertia: 8:43

Wow. So what did it take for you to turn it all around? And you know talking about how you were perceiving things when you were five years old. How do you even perceive the experiences that you have right now? And then you mentioned in going through this period of darkness. Then how did you turn that around as well?

Malisa: 9:14

Well, it kind of started with, um, like just really wanting to die and and figuring out, if I'm not going to die, how do I make this existence more peaceful? And I just kind of started moving pieces, like I literally was just trying to survive from about November of 23 to July of 24. Like I was just going through the motions, trying my best, like using what little information I had about trauma, thinking I knew more than I did, honestly, and not knowing what I didn't know. It was just like inhibiting every single ounce of peace, like I just could not move forward. But I was like, okay, I know that there is an answer. So I kind of just got really creative and started working on some children's books. I wanted to learn the self-publishing process. I did a lot of things like that, but I knew I was in a really toxic work environment and I also knew I had this purpose and I wanted to pursue it more fully. So I kind of just decided I was not going to be scared to quit my job anymore and I did that and started a podcast and really just put a lot of effort into growing me and it was actually one of my earliest podcast guests that made the biggest difference in my life because she works for a guy in Arizona named Troy Love. He's also a licensed clinical social worker and he wrote a book called the Finding Peace Workbook and he has a whole method, a course you can buy and whatever.

Malisa: 10:39

I just did the workbook but she kind of walked me through. I had her on a couple of different episodes and she kind of walked me through because what he did is he broke shame down into different archetypes and you get really familiar with like the personality and the narratives. And once that was introduced, the beautiful thing about our subconscious is is that it immediately takes in the information. And the next time, because what was happening is my brain was very, very, very full of what I thought was just negative self-talk, but it was so loud and it felt like personalities fighting with each other. And I have my older brother is actually very chronically unmedicated schizophrenic and my mom was diagnosed with schizophrenia too. But in hindsight the way she described it sounded a lot like what I was going through and I know even people have thought BPD and I'm like no.

Malisa: 11:34

Once I figured out what these shame narratives were, I was able to eradicate them. So I had all this noise and it was so hateful. One archetype would be like I was just. I had all this noise and it was so hateful Like. One archetype would be like you know better than that. Why are you doing that? And then another one would be like well, I wouldn't have done that if?

Malisa: 11:54

they hadn't done. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da, I wouldn't have done that. And then here comes the judge again, who's like girl you already know. And then we got the rebel coming in being like we hate everyone, just act however you want. Really just going through my brain, just figuring out. But it was the very first time that my brain started that stuff again after a conversation with Jenny that's who it was my subconscious was like hey, remember how we were going to try to figure this out. And it was the first time I could actually hear and understand what I was saying to myself.

Malisa: 12:26

In these moments of stress I had zero coping skills literally. I mean, I couldn't deal with the most minor of inconveniences. In fact, it's hilarious to me that I started a podcast with zero understanding of how to do a podcast, no tech understanding. I mean I just said to myself perfect is the enemy of good. We're going to do it and it's going to be as crappy as it needs to be until we figure it out. But like I remember one day, the third tech issue of the day and I'm wailing because I have no ability to calm myself, like my early recordings, my voice is so deep because I would be crying for hours beforehand trying to get things figured out. And it was awful and I remember sitting there going I get it, I get it. I get it Because I was lucky enough to have like a real spiritual awakening during my healing, and so I was like I get it.

Malisa: 13:17

You're saying, as long as I'm going to respond this way to every minor inconvenience, you're going to keep giving me every little minor inconvenience. And so I just said okay, okay, I don't even care about this. I don't know who I'm talking to, I don't know. You know, I'm just like I don't even care about this, that's fine, and like I really had to learn how to just not make a really big deal about everything. But it was my podcast guests that really saved me, because I was like, ooh, good idea, let's start getting professionals on Give me advice. And I'm a therapist. But at this time I wasn't a therapist. I was licensed, but I wasn't doing that.

Malisa: 13:57

I was just trying to fix myself. I was like yo, we got to do something different here. And that book man it changed everything for me. Obviously, I've learned so much more since then, in the last year, but it changed everything for me.

Kertia: 14:11

Wow, that is amazing, Melissa. So, like you know, speaking of you not being able to cope with small, little little inconveniences, how did your spirituality really come into play? Inconveniences, how did your spirituality really come into play, Like? I'd love to know more about what your own awakening was like and what you learned about your experience from that.

Malisa: 14:36

Well, great question. My spiritual awakening really started in my understanding of astrology. I've always loved astrology, but the more I got into it, the more it resonated with me and I was friends with somebody who was friends with someone else who was super into astrology and he was like you know. She says astrology is more like a blueprint of your life or like your destiny. It's not like a coincidence that these are the characteristics you get, if this is what's going on. So I started looking into that and I had gone to a medium because my parents had gone, been gone for so long, and I was in this you know, are they proud of me place. So I'd gone to a medium and he said things that were very triggering to me because I wasn't there yet, but I just filed it away and I was like you know, I don't believe that and it kind of pissed me off that you said that, but also I'm open, so I'm going to just keep it back here at the back of my mind. And then, as I kept going understanding my astrology and looking at it as a blueprint, it made so much sense to me, like it really laid it all out and I could see each little piece coming together and so it kind of restored my ability to have faith in something.

Malisa: 15:53

Because I was born and raised in Oklahoma and we're very Southern Baptist here and in very everyone here is kind of a fundamentalist. I mean like you can't practice religion here without fire and brimstone and nastyness I mean really. So as I got older I kind of shed all of those beliefs and and they just they didn't like resonate with me anymore and I just believed in nothing for probably seven years or so and that didn't sit right. I was like I don't know. I mean I'm comfortable with the word universe but I really didn't explore it anymore. You know what I mean. I was like I mean it was something, but what? And so astrology, kind of just like I was like there's at least a path, I see a way forward.

Malisa: 16:37

And so it was actually episode four, I think three or four of my podcasts. I had just done an identity audit the night before for like a new moon and you know they're like write down everything that you know you want your future self to be. What's different between who you are now and who this person is? And I was really hating on myself Like yeah, I got to work so hard to be this person. And then the next morning I was driving and it just hit me like, well, why am I working so hard to become only this, like Zen Buddha person? Like I wanted to be perpetually unbothered and yeah, I'm serious, I thought that was the way I did.

Malisa: 17:24

I was like, okay, and part of that's because I've been very reactive most of my life and so my shame really lies in the fact that I was mean, I was loud, but I mean really only with the people very close to me was I reactive. Everyone else got freezer pond, you know. So I was like I'm going to be Buddha up in here, I'm going to no one's going to bother me. And I'm like, yeah, buddha doesn't have any stress. Man, those monks, they don't have any stress, they're out there in the nature, what? And I also realized like I had just become really good at standing up to like toxic people and and and really advocating for myself, for the people around me, whatever. And I was like, you know, I kind of just learned how to hold this fire. I don't want to extinguish it. What am I doing? And it was in that moment that I was like I already am all those things. I am already all these things that I'm trying to be. I just need to be, you know, like unbecome a few things and like myself for who I am right now. That was the beginning. That was really the first epiphany that I had, but that was like one. And then, two hours later, I'm getting mind blowing, eye opening, soul stretching revelations about myself, like every few hours for probably two months Like I was like, okay, we might be in spiritual psychosis, friends, because I'm a new person every four hours of my life. I don't know it, just like.

Malisa: 18:46

The more I was open to questioning why I was doing what I was doing, the more answers I got to like, hey, you're on the right track, this is what we're supposed to do. Question yourself why are you taking everything you think, feel, say, do, at face value and just asking myself some really simple questions like hmm, is it possible that you hate this about this person because you actually hate some part of that in you? That was a really big awakening for me, understanding that we really are just mirrors for one another and that you can't have people in your energy that aren't just like you, because that's not the way it works. I spent a lot of time figuring out how I was just like everybody else, how I do the same stuff, I act the same way.

Malisa: 19:30

Maybe it looks different, but our motivators really aren't any different. We're just trying to keep ourselves safe and that's our subconscious, that's its job. So learning that really impacted me like, oh, okay, and now it's kind of when I figured, figured out, like I've been making myself a victim of circumstances for my entire life, without realizing it, and that's something that I would have fought someone about if they had called me someone who likes to victimize themselves, like if someone said that to me, I would have been really angry. But man, it was true, it was true. I felt like everything in the world was just happening to me all the time, and I just don't view things like that anymore.

Kertia: 20:11

Yeah, I love the way you explained that and I love that for you where you are right now.

Malisa: 20:17

Yeah, it's good, it's good. Listen, I'm not playing. I mean, I still have stress. I still will go through a bout of three weeks where I'm like, what am I doing? You know, and then I just bounce back and I'm like this is what we're doing, yeah.

Kertia: 20:37

We're changing the world. Melissa, I'm really intrigued about you. Know what triggered you. If you're okay with sharing, yeah. What was it that the medium said that triggered you about your parents? What was so triggering for you?

Malisa: 20:53

It was the idea that I chose this experience and that I chose my parents. Yeah, I believe that now that's the way I view the universe and our role here and what our purpose is and why we have this human experience. I'm aligned with that now, but at the time that was very foreign. I mean, I knew nothing of that. Reincarnation was something I was familiar with, so I was very willing to lean into those ideals. But like, yeah, um, and then even like a friend that I made on the podcast, who is a spiritualist, really triggered me talking about victim consciousness, and so he'd always be like, okay, so then why'd you attract this experience? And I was like don't ask me, that, that's rude. I just like those ideals just weren't familiar to me and I was still pretty sheltered in any sort of spirituality, so I didn't understand that was a really common thing to believe and for me it just like it just hit me deep in my heart. I was like that's rude.

Kertia: 22:01

That's a tough one. That is a tough one. I think that is what. That's one of the most challenging concepts that we have accepted, because, like, even when I first came across that concept, I was just like what, why the hell would I choose this? It's shitty. Nobody wants. Like what are you?

Malisa: 22:24

saying, but it makes so much sense to me now, like I I had a yeah, I had a medium on my show not that long ago.

Malisa: 22:35

Man, I got so much healing from that conversation because I've actually carried a lot of anger about my grandma for a lot of years because she was very narcissistic. She's never come through any reading with a medium. Because that first one I went actually three times because I was like, oh, I was just like wanting to learn more, you know, and he was expensive too. But I was like, well, you know, we got to go see our dead folk, but this medium immediately she's like, oh, your grandma. And I was like that's interesting, she never pops through. She's like, yeah, it's always the one you don't want to talk to that will come through for me. And I was like word what she got to say. And she didn't say a lot, but what she said was actually about my mom, cause my mom has always popped through very fast, which was surprising to me because she was the speak in tongues, dance in the aisle church person.

Malisa: 23:31

So, I want you to know that. So I was always like she's not going to come through, because I didn't understand what spirits were. So it was like, oh well, she's my mom on the other side. So I was like she don't like that kind of stuff, but she really didn't care, so she was always first to come through. But what changed me deep to my core is when she said yeah, it's like your mom. And see, the first medium said this too, but I didn't understand it. Then he maybe used a little different language, but he said the exact same thing and I didn't know what he meant because I wasn't familiar with soul contracts at the time.

Malisa: 24:03

And so she's like yeah, it's like your mom kind of just didn't pass the test here and so now the help that she was supposed to like grow to get to, to help you grow through your mission, she can't do it on this side because she died. She's still doing that on the other side. And he told me that too, but I w I didn't understand what he meant, so I was like, hey, okay, I guess. Um, but hearing that about my mom made me have that understanding about my grandma too, like I can see in our astrology where, like our you know, like we absolutely have soul ties, like absolutely. And so it just made me forgive.

Malisa: 24:43

For the first time I was able to just lay all my anger down and get to that place where I've reached with really most people of like love and compassion, cause I can see how I've done those things too. I'm the first to get on here and say, like I was a terrible mother. Was I the worst mother? No, but I wasn't like the best either, and I can fully admit all the ways in which I've harmed my children, not physically, thankfully, but for me the physical abuse left way less scars than the emotional mental abuse you know so.

Malisa: 25:16

I'm not going to pretend like I didn't make a lasting negative impact on my children. I work really hard now for repair and I'm lucky they love me, they forgive me, whatever. But it still comes up a lot and so I kind of am able to look and go yeah, I do that too, or I did that too, or I know exactly why a person does that, and I think that's really what's helped me the very most. That's what's expanded my consciousness the most is every time I can sit and go yeah, okay. Well, I mean, I know why a person would do that. Does that mean I'm going to be around them anymore?

Malisa: 25:51

Like I was just talking to my oldest, who's 22, the other day about a relative of mine and I was like Ooh, yeah, they're a narcissist, blah, blah, blah. And I was just going off and he's like yeah, but weren't they raised by so-and-so? And I was like, yeah, he's like, yeah, I mean it kind of makes sense. I was like no, you're so right about that. And actually I feel really sorry for this person, because I know that they really do have so much good in their heart and I know what narcissism is.

Malisa: 26:26

It some sociopaths, guys like that aren't, you know, like just a narcissist and overall, just view like I almost have a good sense of what age they got stuck at. Whenever I'm around somebody who's that emotionally stunted, stunted and so like, when I work with clients, I'm like, okay, but imagine them as a 10 year old boy, what you know like. Does that change the way you feel about this at all? Wouldn't this be how a 10 year old boy would respond?

Malisa: 26:53

Not because I want people to get over things or allow things. We have a tendency to make ourselves believe that other people's behavior has anything to do with us, and it just doesn't. So I try to get people to a really empowered place like love yourself, have compassion for yourself, and everything that you do should come from that place. Not spite, not hate, not anger I mean there are there's a place for anger, but you know what I mean Like love is the highest frequency in my belief, along with gratitude. So just loving yourself.

Malisa: 27:27

I also found that that is the only true love. Is this love that you can cultivate within yourself and then you can share it with others. Because I was a person spending my entire life trying to get the feeling of being special, that I was chosen by people, and yet I felt on the periphery of every relationship that I had and like I loved everybody more than they loved me and I was nobody's person and I wasn't the special one or whatever. And then, when I really started to pour into myself and feel that love for myself, then I could receive because it was only ever a projection of the way I felt about myself anyway, yeah, so profound, so profound, melissa.

Malisa: 28:27

Thank you.

Kertia: 28:28

And nobody likes to hear that and nobody likes to admit how much we cling to that victimhood. I mean, unpleasant things happen to people all the time, right, and it sucks, and it's okay to be in that state and experience the grief of that. But yeah, like when we kind of take that and then it becomes our identity and then we use that as like a crotch for everything that we do moving forward, then that's just like a whole different thing that we're creating and it's just yeah to be stuck there. It's really something else and I understand the challenge of coming out of that, you know, and it's yeah, as you said, it's not easy hearing, you know.

Malisa: 29:19

No, not at all.

Malisa: 29:20

I mean, I was like, well, we're not going to be friends anymore, but see it almost helped me, because that's one of the biggest ways that I was victimizing myself without realizing it was. I actually found that I have pushed everyone away. My entire life I've kept everyone at arm's length. I didn't understand that on a conscious level, because on the outside what you'd see is a lot of trauma, dumping, a lot of people pleasing so anything you need, I'm going to be there, you know, making sure that you need me so that I can feel good and so that you think I'm a good person, because perception was the only thing I cared about. Also, subconsciously, I mean, none of this was anything I was aware of and I thought I was the most self-aware person on earth. Okay, it's embarrassing. Actually it really is. Sometimes I cringe because I'm like that's so, and even in the last few months, the way that I have noticed pushing people away or victimizing myself is. Well, the reason my show is called Emotionally Unavailable is because I learned I'm very emotionally unavailable. Then I learned we all are until we figure it out, and so I kind of realized that one of the reasons that I didn't share anything vulnerable in real time, like I was kind of the isolate until the problem was over. You know, maybe it'd be a week, maybe it'd be two weeks, whatever, and then be like, oh Lord, I mean I almost died last week. It was so rough, you know, but I could say it like jokingly and just be very comedic about it and I retold all of my trauma like a standup comedian. I mean, in fact, it was my goal to go and do that on a stage at some point because I had no connection to those stories. Now it is tougher for me to relive some of that because I'm very connected to them. Not that it's like a problem, but there are times, like if I'm giving a talk or whatever, that I can get kind of emotional about what I'm saying and I'm also not embarrassed about that anymore. But I just realized I wouldn't share my stuff in real time. So I've started to do that. It's a practice and I suck at it, but I'm getting a little better. So I'm working, I'm working, I'm working on sharing the stressors and then, when I do, someone pisses me off because I don't like their response and what I figured out is every time it was like this is the exact reason you don't share, but anytime I tell myself something, this is exactly why, about anything I now know that is like my trigger to stop and figure out what was I thinking, because that is confirmation bias. Every time I'm figuring out how I've been lying to myself my entire life, telling myself if I tell people things, I'm unsafe.

Malisa: 32:03

Yes, it's a trauma response to not want unsolicited advice. If you're not aware of that, just know it is, it's okay. It doesn't make you a narcissist, it doesn't make you a bad person. It's a trauma response. Now the next step is learning how to take the advice, whether you wanted it or not. It's not about taking it, it's about hearing without erupting like a volcano, which is kind of what I would do.

Malisa: 32:26

You know that was my reactivity. I didn't know how to handle those triggers and now, like I would be like people need to stop saying this or don't ask me this Cause. Then I'm in a position to have to say no and I don't want to say no all because I was so bad at boundaries and also like being the container for myself to handle those triggers. I would blame everyone else around me. That's another classic example of victimization, like I'm a victim because somebody asks me something or someone gives me unsolicited advice. No, what can I do If it's like absolute crap, because maybe I just experienced a loss and they told me you know they're in a better place, you can say whatever you want to someone who says that to you, but like it's my job to say something at that point, not walk away and then start pulling in every ounce of negativity that I possibly can to give me the strength to never talk to them again, cause that was what I was really classically known for was just you out, we're not going to have a conversation. Well, because if I had ever had a conversation with someone about feelings and they didn't respond well, that was it too. No, I'll just never share again. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Malisa: 33:40

And now I have so much more grace because, first of all, do you think that I handled anybody telling me that I hurt their feelings? Very well, handled it, just like the other people did. So it's like a full circle moment where I'm like okay, it's my job, it's my job to tell them I don't want them to say it, or just be chill or whatever. Just like when someone else comes to me and they say something to me, I can say to them immediately yo, I'm going to do my very best to receive this in the way that really honors you. But I'm also human and so just I'm going to ask you to give me some grace if I don't respond to this perfectly and giving myself the option to be messy and to just figure this human stuff out Anytime it happens. I can give that to others now and so, whereas before if somebody didn't handle me expressing a feeling to them very well and I'd cut them off, now I'm like, okay, I'm going to give you a minute to just like come back down and understand. I'm not attacking you, especially now.

Malisa: 34:41

The way I communicate feelings really is like this is what's coming up in me that other person doesn't have any responsibility in this. I'm talking about the normal everyday stuff. I'm not talking about, you know, the outlandish, abusive stuff. I'm talking about the normal everyday stuff. I'm not talking about, you know, the outlandish, abusive stuff. I'm talking about how I walked around feeling betrayed at all times and put that responsibility on other people Like betrayed me. And now I understand like no, I just felt betrayed.

Kertia: 35:03

Yeah, oh yeah, the growth huh.

Malisa: 35:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Kertia: 35:22

When your paradigm just completely shifts like that, it's so much more peaceful because you're not taking every single thing personally. You know, when we were talking about astrology in the medium and um soul contracts earlier, what do you think was a part of that soul contract? Like? Why, what do you think you went through all of that, why were you here to learn like, and what are you supposed to do with that from your perspective now?

Malisa: 35:50

Well, I kind of think we all have the same mission here. On an individual level, I think that we're supposed to get to a place where we're so anchored into the humanness but we also are in touch with our highest selves and we are full of love and compassion for ourselves and we understand it's perfectly okay to be imperfect and just to fully embrace who we are, because until we get to that point, we can't make a difference on the collective level. And I think that on the collective level, and I think that on the collective level, we are all here to move us forward, to be more loving, to be more compassionate, to be more understanding, to be able to see the humanity in everyone and also to understand we are all one. We are all one of the same thing. All one, we are all one of the same thing.

Malisa: 36:57

And when I started to see the connection between me and everyone else and how maybe you have the little T trauma but I have the big T trauma, but we have the same messed up thinking and the same messed up behavior, that's not a coincidence. And I'm really passionate, actually, about talking to people who had what they would call every like a normal mundane childhood. And yet you're just as messed up as me at the end of the day. Why is that? And I figured it out it's because nobody knew how to walk us through emotional developmental milestones. So we all felt neglected every ounce of our childhood, whether that was something that we could identify or not. Nobody knew how to sit with us in the most minor of discomforts, and when I started to see how I had repeated that pattern with my children, like it was alarming. And beautiful too, though, because the more I understand how I've messed up, the more I can understand why my parents messed up, and I think that's the point. I think we're all supposed to get to this place where we just understand humans are humans. I mean, about the only of people that I can't find an ounce of like love for really is pedophiles, but you know otherwise. I'm just. I can, like you, get me in a heated conversation about stuff like, yeah, I'm gonna get pissed and I'm gonna. You know, like talking politics is rough right now. So, yes, I can. I can react from a place of passion that isn't always subtle, but like when I sit, you that you like, but when I sit with myself and I say, but that person. I know why they make that decision. I know I know why they think that and I can understand that. Am I going to necessarily hang out with them or share bread with them? Not really, not really, but like I don't have to hate them either.

Malisa: 38:56

I think that's to what everybody was always trying to get us to understand about forgiveness you can forgive, you can't forget. Whatever it is. That's your own personal mission. But at the same time, like man, my life is so much more full of peace, not carrying around all of this anger. And like I did that for me, not not for anyone else.

Malisa: 39:16

I wanted to release that. Like literally just years of pressure was off of me when I could lay that down about my grandma. Like I can understand it's just about holding two perspectives. Like, yeah, I have every right to feel whatever I want and and I did allow myself to hold onto the anger as long as I wanted to I didn't pressure myself to let it go. Resistance keeps us stuck, so I just go with what I surrender to whatever I'm in right then, and then I was able to let it go and the hurt is gone, the heavy is gone. I just understand. Yeah, she did a lot of really dumb stuff that hurt me really bad and she was a human having her own experience and she was a very unhappy person and as a person who has been very unhappy, I can get that I didn't have the capacity to show up for anyone.

Kertia: 40:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly that, exactly that. So many gems, melissa. So many gems. Yes, I love it. I love it.

Malisa: 40:13

Tell me more about your podcast, okay, emotionally unavailable, like tell me yeah, yeah, well, okay, so in the very beginning, because I am funny, like I'll say that, but you are. Thank you I wanted a mix of like funny and whatever. Mostly I was scared to show up really fully, authentically, right.

Malisa: 40:34

So at first it was going to be couples. Like I would have couples on and I would interview them and I'd be like making fun of their answers, like cause it was, I don't know, it was just different stuff. Those early episodes were. They were, they're fun. But also I was struggling to get guests. I don't know how anybody starts a podcast and doesn't like do that, but I was struggling. I'm like begging people to be on my show, right yeah, and it was mostly just teaching people about emotional availability through a funny way. Then, as I kind of like was developing emotionally, spiritually, like when I had Jenny on, like I was very raw and she was helping me through real stuff, like that is on my show, me having these awakenings and like in real time I'm learning where I've really hurt myself for a long time. And so then I craved that type of connection and I didn't talk about astrology or spirituality at first, because I'm in Oklahoma and I knew like it was people I knew that were my listener base at first and I was afraid of losing listeners. And then I just quit caring and was like okay, but you know, you got to be you or your people can't find you. So I kind of slowly started talking about it. Now, you know I'll have I have people on that believe things that weren't necessarily things I believed in. It can feel very outlandish to people who aren't really in the spiritual world and that worried me a little bit. But it's also like hey, if you're my listener, you are open, you don't have to believe everything, like sometimes I'll, cause I do. It's like a separate intro before the release and so I'll be like listen, maybe we sound crazy and that's fine, we're not, but just listen, just listen to the episode, tell me what you think, but it's a lot of. I try to just connect with people about who they are, like cause, of course you know people want to promote themselves. So, like you know, coaches will come on and whatever, and I'm like that's fine, we'll promote your work, but we're going to have a heart to heart. So that's the way I do it, because I love connecting with people.

Malisa: 42:39

I found that it gives me so much energy to have these types of conversations. Literally I love going on other people's shows to do it. I love having people on and we just talk about what we've been through and how we got to this place and what. What did you learn? Oh wow, I haven't heard of that. You know, like I learned about human design from my show. That's been really instrumental. Like there's so many people that have come on and taught me the coolest stuff. Like it's and you know, sometimes they'll give you free readings, like there's all kinds of.

Malisa: 43:10

If someone offers a free service after they've been on my show, I'm like yeah, I'll do that and it's called I had a coach on, a mindset coach. She's so much more than that. I don't even know if that's what she actually names herself, but she offered a free coaching session for me. Having her on. I was like, okay, yeah, that was my first time ever doing anything like that.

Malisa: 43:29

She taught me how to get into energy that I want to, because I was nervous about an event that I was going to go to.

Malisa: 43:34

And she taught me that I was being in my masculine energy, like trying to Melissa, go do it but doing something that made me very anxious Because I was thinking I need to go into the event. Extroverted. I'm really not extroverted like that. I am, if we can have these kind of conversations, but most people don't want to be like, hi, I'm so-and-so, and then me just, you know well, tell me about your life story. That's not how it goes. So in crowded rooms I'll get pretty anxious, and so she really helped me understand like you can go sit at a table and wait until something naturally happens, like you don't have to go force anything, and that's when I really learned how to like get into my feminine. My show has changed me because I get to meet all of these really cool people who teach me so much. So I still feel like it really centers around my journey, but also I get to make all these beautiful connections.

Kertia: 44:28

That's beautiful. I resonate with everything that you've been saying because even developing this podcast, it has been a personal development journey and spiritual journey of mine as well.

Kertia: 44:40

Before this podcast was developed, I was at rock bottom and it was me doing the work and slowly crawling my way out of that how this podcast came into being and, yeah, my idea initially when I started it is completely different from what it is right now and, speaking to all the people that I've met on the podcast has taught me so much about myself, about my own process, about my journey. I've had readings on the podcast too.

Malisa: 45:10

Yeah, it is so great.

Kertia: 45:12

Yeah. So it's crazy how a world, a different world of things, can open up for you when you stay open and when you actually actively begin doing the work and just committed to just being open-hearted and open-minded about whatever it is that might be presented to you. Right? Because instead of being just stuck in this fear-based mindset, you know and that's why I named the show the Author's Side of Fear, because I recognize how much I have been operating from that state being the people pleaser, not having badges, because, you know, all of this came out of plethora of childhood trauma.

Kertia: 46:01

Um, yeah, and there are times when, like, I didn't know how to deal with my own emotions, like I've always written as a kid and that's how I kind of learned to deal with some of my inner thoughts and feelings. But even after a while of growing up into early adulthood, in my teens, I completely stopped writing because I felt like even that became hard for me, because I wanted to detach so much from what I was feeling, especially when I felt like someone did me so wrong. And I felt like, if I begin to think about how I feel, or if I begin to, or if I stayed in this feeling of sadness or unhappiness or feeling heartbroken, then I'm giving them power over me, or something like that.

Kertia: 46:55

And yeah, and.

Malisa: 46:57

I didn't. I can relate to that for sure.

Kertia: 46:59

Yeah, and I stopped writing for a while because of that and I didn't realize how distorted that was, because, it is true, being in that state and being able to express that then you could heal from it. And I thought that if I continue to express how I felt or continue to allow myself to feel those things, then I will be giving them more power. But truly, it isn't allowing yourself to go through all of that and express it and cry and scream and whatever you know that allows you to actually take your power back right. Take your power back in a way whereby you you express it, you're in that state and then you can release it, so that you can release it after, like it no longer has a hold on you. And, yeah, I was in that state of like wanting to detach from my emotions, of like wanting to detach from my emotions.

Malisa: 47:54

But that's what we all do we avoid, we avoid, avoid, avoid. In fact, I got to a place where I got a little tired of all the like precious ways that people talk about dismissive, avoidant versus fearful, avoidant versus anxious attachment on TikTok. I'm addicted to TikTok, I'm not going to play about it, but because we're all avoidant, like maybe a boy or a girl if that's what you're into, but like maybe the person that you're trying to get with can trigger your anxious occasionally. But overall we're all running from feelings and you, talking about being able to release it, reminded me that like I used to get pissed when people would be like you just feel it and release it, because what I was doing was thinking about it, spinning up here, up here, over and over and over. I didn't know how to feel anything. I could not experience a feeling, literally, I'm driving down the road and I'm like traditional grounding didn't work that well for me, like the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Because I like traditional grounding didn't work that well for me, like the five, four, three, two, one. Because I listen, think about me, I can overthink. So like I'd be in one way trying to find the five things and then over here like, still, you know, making myself miserable. So I'm driving down the road and I'm like, oh, melissa, your neck, shoulders and back are hurting really bad. That's supposed to be your clue that you're overthinking about something.

Malisa: 49:12

And I was like, okay, get out of my head into my heart. First of all, what was I thinking about? Okay, okay, okay. So if I were to label that cause, I just use those basic attachment wounds as my feeling labels, cause I feel like everything fits in one or more of those Cause like, if you Google feelings, you're going to get so many adjectives and that is a waste of my time. I don't need to sit and is it disappointment or frustration? So I was like, okay, what? What were you thinking about? And I'm like, okay, you were feeling rejected. Feel the rejection. Get out of your head and feel the rejection.

Malisa: 49:43

This was the very first time I ever experienced a feeling in my whole effing life. I was like, okay, feel. And I I felt myself like leaving my brain and entering my body for the first time in my entire life and it was very moving. I was like crying because it was new and I understood then, like, what people mean when they say coming home to yourself. It was the first time I came home and so I was like, okay, rejection. Then it's over in 90 seconds or less, and I've been driving myself crazy in my brain for years, not being able to, like, let anything go, ever Cause I could, I could. You know, I was one of those people that was fighting with people, like every time I'm taking a shower, like, and then another thing you know cause? I'm not actually going to say it to your face, that would be weird.

Malisa: 50:27

I'm going to come over here and I'm going to overthink it and I'm going to talk bad about you behind your back and like ad nauseum, like I couldn't let stuff go ever, because I couldn't, it wouldn't leave my brain. So, like understanding how to. That's what. When I work with people, my first step in the framework is like quiet the noise Cause you got to learn how to control this. It's a very powerful muscle that doesn't do you a lot of good. Like, unless you're trying to actively solve a problem, get out of your brain because it is only there to keep you alive. It's not there to help you in any other way. That's a great function for a brain.

Kertia: 50:59

I'm thankful that it's keeping me alive, but, like that's not where experiences that I've had with others and you know, even get into that point where you are recognizing that, where their reactions are coming from, recognizing what they're mirroring for you, recognizing like the lesson in the relationship, or whatever it was, that you have with the person. At first it's kind of like well, shit, right, but when you look deeper into things. But when you look deeper into things, you recognize the different layers of yourself that were not tended to for such a long time. And even when you were just talking about how, when you were developing your podcast and you were expressing your pain but you weren't expressing your pain openly, you were using like a narrative of humor right To express that Like I can lose count easily of how many people around me that I know do that Situations that seriously harm them and you know they turn it into a huge comedic.

Malisa: 52:32

Yeah, me and my brothers had very dark humor.

Malisa: 52:35

We made some really inappropriate jokes about our mother, but like I mean actually both of our parents, we just that's just what we did. I just wish well, I can't even wish for this, but I remember feeling hurt that people didn't see how bad I was doing because of those things. Something I talked about a lot for a little while in this journey was when I found softness, because I was so angry that everyone had told me my whole life you are so strong, you're so brave, you're so resilient. And it's not that those things didn't feel true, but I was tired of hearing it. I wanted them to help me. Like I was, like I don't want to be strong anymore. I want someone to hold me, I want to be nurtured, I just want to be a girl.

Malisa: 53:19

Like just love me please Like, just let me live.

Kertia: 53:22

Like somebody help me here. Yes.

Malisa: 53:25

Yes, I mean not that I had ever asked anyone for anything like that, but I didn't identify it before. It wasn't until I started getting very triggered by the you're so strong that I was like, okay, then what do you want? What do you want? Because that's not it. Those words did mean a lot to me when I was still motivated by spite, Like yeah, you're right, I am strong. But I was like no man, I need tender, Like I need to be tender with myself. I need somebody to hold me softly, Like understand, I'm going through it right now and I don't even know which way to go most of the time, and so I need someone to hold me. Me. And it felt good to finally get to a place where, like literally just visualizing somebody holding me felt so safe, because I think for so many years the thought of that felt very unsafe. Giving anybody else any amount of control to be able to comfort me even was unsafe.

Kertia: 54:25

And.

Malisa: 54:26

I had to create the safety in my body before I could allow anyone else to be around me and help me.

Kertia: 54:35

What a journey, Melissa. It really has been.

Kertia: 54:41

Oh, my goodness, I could relate to so many things that you're saying, and I think that's why that's why it's so important us being able to do what we do, and like it's hard, like people tell me like it's great and, wow, like you're doing such a great thing. But I always say this that it has not been easy for me to show up and speak on a podcast and express my opinions and tell people how I felt about certain things and even mention some things that I've been through. It's not easy For me. It has been a journey of uncovering many layers of shame, many layers of being in a state of not loving myself for so long, without even recognizing that I wasn't loving myself, because I was completely unaware of that. And even when the whole self-love movement started to be a thing and love movement started to be a thing and whatever, the whole idea of self-love can be so skewed and like caught up into things that are so external. Yes, so there's that trivial, yeah and trivial, and so the idea of self-love, I think, can be so distorted. So it's all about living in your heart, as you said, and operating from there. But if you can't operate, if you can't live here and operate from here, then you're completely detached from that.

Kertia: 56:19

So I didn't realize that all of these things that occurred, you know, because I was that person that thought, like I'm a good girl, why does bad things happen to me? Why am I surrounded by people who take advantage or break my heart or make me feel bad about myself? Why do I keep experiencing these these things? And I just never understood it. You know, I never understood it and I was just like it's just not fair, it's not right, like why is life like this? You know, and I was also that person like I didn't, I didn't get to the stage of planning and exit, but I've went through a stage many times, even that whole dark, like that darkness that I went through before this podcast came into fruition or conceptualization, I should say whereby I had experienced suicidal ideation, whereby I had experienced suicidal ideation. But I think what has always kept me so grounded are my kids, like for me. I was just like, yeah, of course I have trauma. I know that I projected a lot of my own crap onto her right.

Kertia: 57:45

Because I was a young mom but I always had this idea like, no, I need to be here, because they need me and because of what I was surrounded by, I felt like, well, I might not be perfect, but I really truly believe that, well, I'm their best chance to guide them here. So I need to be grounded. So figure your shit out. Figure your shit out because, yeah, I'm just like nobody is going to mess with my kids.

Malisa: 58:21

See, I actually was the exact opposite, in that I so resonated with you saying the layers of shame, because that was really the crux of my issue too. But because of my reactivity and the way I was like not wanting anything to do with my kids, and because I was just so, my God, I was just trapped inside a very ugly brain so I didn't have room for anything and I was just being so hateful and because they needed me and I didn't have it, to give you know.

Malisa: 58:48

So I actually got to the place of making a plan because I felt they were better off without me, like it finally reached that point where because they were the reason that I was staying for so long too Not that I had a plan ever before the time that I made a plan but I had struggled off and on with ideation my whole life. So yeah.

Malisa: 59:09

But, like the kids made it easy to be, like you can't do that Bianche, you know. And so I didn't. But this time it was like I, they're like, they're way better off without me. Cause there were times in the past that I would just tell myself like I messed up mom's better than no mom. I messed up mom's better than no mom, but this time it was like no like.

Malisa: 59:27

At this point the risk is outweighing the reward, or whatever like I felt like I was that bad and all because I wasn't perfect, like that's really why I wanted to die, because I couldn't handle the fact that I wasn't doing everything perfectly. And I guess I really believed somebody was. Like there was somebody on this earth that was doing it a thousand times better than me. And now I'm like baby, like yeah, you messed up, but you really wasn't that bad first of all. Like I mean, you know, like you wouldn't know yourself to the cross, that's fine. But like you can go compare yourself to the neighbor even, and you're doing better than they are with your baby.

Malisa: 1:00:05

So, whatever, I don't want to make those comparisons, but at the time it was like you wanted to die because you couldn't do things perfectly. What? And, like I said, I think that's that part of self-love that is missing when people are chasing that journey. It's not just about yoga and journaling in the woods, it's about full stop acceptance of who you are. And I've had this realization that we really think that hating ourselves is the level of accountability needed when we make mistakes.

Kertia: 1:00:41

And.

Malisa: 1:00:42

I really had to unravel that and think why do I believe that? And because that's the way I was programmed to believe, like my grandma, you know the lecturing, the all the things like if you mess up you gotta be told that you are irredeemable for the rest of your life over this little tiny mistake. But I believed that and so then I just realized, like honey, you're, you're really, you're really asking a lot of your humanness. And I think when I got to that place I was able to just be like okay, I can let all of that perfectionism go. I still find sneaky ways that it pops up in my life, but because I'm so much better I'm not going to say perfect, obviously, but I'm so much better at stopping in the moment and be like what the hell is this? What is going on here? Why am I upset? Much better at stopping in the moment and be like what the hell is this? What is going on here? Why am I upset? Why did this come up? Oh, perfectionism, okay, great, that's easy. Bye-bye perfectionism.

Malisa: 1:01:35

But I think that people think that if you're willing to have unconditional love and regard for yourself, that you'll just give yourself a free pass to be whatever. And that's how I know that they don't know love. Because when you fill yourself up with love, you can't go be mean to other people just on the reg. You go and you give that love, you share the love. They have their love and you have your love and we're all just sharing it. I'm not on some mission to go get away with murder.

Malisa: 1:02:08

Obviously, I'm on a path here of peace and joy childlike joy, like, in fact, I've been struggling with energy levels since I've been working from home. So I told my husband this week, like, okay, my next focus is I'm literally just focusing on getting a better routine exercise, things like that to get my energy levels up again, because I know that's what's needed. No more once a week. Go have fun every day. Play sometime like play, play, play. And it's slow. It's a slow process, but you know I'm building the foundation right now, so that's what I'm going to do. But that's love. That's the love we're talking about. It's not. It is also some of the frou-frou stuff that you see on Instagram and you should do those things. But mostly it's just about understanding that if I am full of this love for myself, how can I go wrong? Because A we're supposed to make the mistakes. That's what we're here for is to figure out how to overcome that stuff. And B it's such a better existence.

Kertia: 1:03:08

Yes, yes, all of that, melissa. This is such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for sharing.

Malisa: 1:03:16

I just want you to know that, like when I was reading your profile and even when I got you know how, like the Calendly reminders or whatever I felt so connected to you. So I'm not surprised that it's been such a beautiful conversation, but it definitely has.

Kertia: 1:03:31

Yes, and I'm definitely. I resonate with everything you've been saying, girl. I've been through it, I get it. Let me tell you.

Malisa: 1:03:41

Life is hard, man, it is.

Kertia: 1:03:43

Yeah, yeah, and it's like, just like how you said, like the how, however your trauma looks, how we internalize it might be different, but the impact, you know it's there. You know, like we both experience suicidal ideation, but you can see the internal processes of why that was there, how that was there and how we like, how we perceive that. You had a completely different reason for me, like, for me, I was just like no, I have to be here because of A, and you were just like, at this point they're better off. You know what I mean. But it's the fact that we're at that point, that turning point, whereby we're just like this doesn't make sense anymore. Why am I even here?

Kertia: 1:04:32

Right, so we all go through the same things. It might just look different, the process might be different, but we all go through it. So it's just about being kinder to ourselves and being kinder to others. But know, but first be kind to yourself, because I think that's that's just where it begins. As you said, once you're operating from your heart, once you're truly in touch with that love you know that pure love you can't go wrong. You can't have an inclination to want to hurt someone else.

Malisa: 1:05:10

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's a beautiful driving force, for sure.

Kertia: 1:05:14

Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we head out? You can tell us where we can find anything that you're working on, where we can contact you and anything else you'd like to tell us.

Malisa: 1:05:28

Listen, kersha, I'm still trying to figure my life out. Okay, once I get really solid on what I'm doing, I pivot again, so you can feel free to go to my website, empoweredwithpelissahepnerorg if you want to. There are some good little workbooks on there. There's a couple of like workshops, things like that that I have linked, but otherwise I don't know what I'm doing with my life right now other than my podcast. But I would love if people listened and I'm very active on Instagram at Melissa Heppner and you know making friends and you know building community and all that. So I try to stay connected with folk, love it.

Kertia: 1:06:06

Yeah, guys, thank you so much for listening, listening, and, if you're enjoying this podcast, head over to youtube and look us up and hit that subscribe button. Your support truly does a lot for our visibility, and we just want to continue putting out meaningful work, because the world needs a lot of love right now. So we decided to begin releasing the videos to these recordings, and I'd love to see you all in the comments section. You can also find Melissa's contact details in the show notes of this episode, and feel free to send us a text and tell us what you think. All right, then, until next time, and remember, let your light shine and be your guide.