48. CRC Roundup

Scott and Ben catch up with Tyler Wagenmaker of the Christian Reformed Church, following their Synod meeting earlier this summer.

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SPEAKER_00 0:07

Well, hello and welcome to Polity Matters. My name is Ben Ratliff, and I'm joined today by Scott Edberg. And there's a rather uh rather large uh empty space in our hearts today, with Jared Nelson being away and gone off on some presbytery retreat of some kind. Scott, I don't know what he's doing. Do you know is he is it a youth retreat? Is that what he's talking about? Or do the the presbyters actually get together for a retreat during the week?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

I I thought it was like a VBS. Uh I don't even know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

We have no idea what's going on. But uh if you know Jared, reach out to him. He may be lost in the ether somewhere. Uh anyway, we are uh in the middle of our summer series. Y'all know that we've been taking uh a week off every other week and coming back to you in the interim uh just touching base with other Presbyterians in the world, seeing what's going on out there with uh folks that are kind of like us, but not quite like us here in the PCA. But it's good to stretch us a little bit. It it helps us uh be more brotherly and uh embrace more fellowship as we reach out and hear what's going on across the country. So we are glad and happy to welcome Reverend Tyler Wagonmaker uh to join us today. Uh he um he serves as a minister. Uh just that's about all I know about him. I've got to be honest. Uh we just we spent a couple of seconds getting to know each other just before we recorded, but I'm gonna let him introduce himself here in just a second. He serves in the Christian Reformed Church, the CRC, and I've already been called out for calling it the CREC, which is not correct. Uh a friend of mine just recently joined the CREC, and so that's that's stuck in the back of my brain. I'll I'll do my best not to say that again. Uh Tyler, welcome. Why don't you tell us about yourself and about your uh ministry and your uh relationship to your denomination, how you how you got into the Christian Reformed Church.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

You know, all that all that stuff all at one time.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, so I'm Tyler Wagamaker. I'm like you said, a pastor in the Christian Reformed Church up here in Beaverdam in the West Michigan area, which is one of the areas of the heartland of the Christian Reformed Church. The Dutch Reformed Church, that's where again we hearken back to our roots as a denomination, the Dutch Reformed Church. So we the Dutch Reformed, of course, have been around since the beginning of the Reformation, and uh, you know, the canons of Dort, the five points of Calvinism. But uh, you can largely thank the Dutch for that, the Dutch Reformed for that, for instance. So um, that's my heritage. That's where I come from, grew up here in West Michigan as uh, you know, as a son of the Christian Reformed Church, born and raised, baptized on the eighth day. And uh so that was just something, again, part of our birthright growing up. One of the things about the Christian Reformed Church is we've historically we've always encouraged and supported uh Christian day schools. And so usually all usually wherever you find a Christian Reformed church, you will find some sort of Christian education, day school education. It's not church run, it's parent-run. It's a very Kuiperian sort of approach with the different spheres of responsibility that that God has given with you know, hearkening back to Abraham Kuper and his influence in the Dutch Reformed uh church, which is part of our influence then too, part of our heritage again in the Christian Reformed Church. So Abraham Kuyper is part of our heritage. But uh, but um this kind of sphere sort of I idea where you have the church, for instance, you have the school, you have government, you have all these different spheres, you have the family. Um, so but the the church was actively promoting of Christian day school education. So I went to Christian schools my entire life growing up from uh from kindergarten, graduated uh 12th grade from a local Christian high school in uh Western Michigan Christian High School in the Muskegon area, and uh then went to Calvin, Calvin, it was Calvin College at that time. Now it's Calvin University in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is also now that is actually owned, that is owned, I guess you could say owned by the Christian Reformed Church. It is an official school of the Christian Reformed Church of North America. Calvin University is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So I graduated from there a four-year degree in history and English minor with a secondary education, so I could be a teacher. Some uh, and I thought, well, I knew I was going into seminary anyway by that point, even when I was starting Calvin uh university, and so I knew I was going into the ministry track, so everything uh history is a really good undergraduate degree, and also secondary education, because as you know, as pastors, we do plenty of teaching. And uh, and there's also opportunities to teach in local day schools, for instance, Christian day schools. That was I was keeping that option open then too, down the road. Uh, then after Calvin uh went to Westminster Theological Seminary in California, so um Westminster West, Westminster, California, Dr. Robert Godfrey was the president at uh Westminster West at that time. And and so I know some of the professors are still there, like Robert Clark, uh Professor Clark, uh Scott Clark, I should say, and um, and so he was just coming on when I was at Westminster um seminary, but we had people like uh Professor Strymple, for instance, uh Professor uh Frame um had him. Some of these are still in press well, Professor Frame and Presbyterian circles. So I was surrounded by Presbyterians, a lot of PCA guys, a lot of OPC guys, and some Korean Presbyterians, and there were a handful of us Dutch Reform folk there um at the time, the Christian Reformed Church. And so, but we um and at the time we went there actually too, uh, some of the professors were Christian Reformed, uh professors in the Christian or um office pairs in the Christian Reformed Church. So like Dr. Godfrey, he was he was a pastor in the Christian Reformed Church, for instance, and he and a couple of others too. In fact, uh the current president at uh at Westminster West, um, Joel Kim, he grew up Christian Reformed. And uh I believe his I believe his father was a Christian Reformed pastor in the in the Southern California area. But anyway, uh so we have a lot of interactions, historically, a lot of interactions with uh the Presbyterian circle and the Christian Reformed Church. In fact, when the OPC started up under Machin and and that whole movement at that time, the Christian Reformed Church was uh was one of the biggest supporters of the OPC and uh really encouraged them. And so you have people like um uh Cornelius Van Til, for instance, uh grew up Christian Reformed, um, the Vantilian sort of uh apologetic method um is one. And Gitterhardis was also Christian Reformed. So uh there's been always a lot of interplay between the Christian Reformed Church and the Presbyterian churches, like the OPC eventually, and then the PCA, which the Christian Reformed Church was part of Napar um early on. Uh we helped to establish NAPARC. Um what is that same for? Yeah, North American, Presbyterian and Reformed Churches, um, kind of that. And the PCA is a part of that, the OPC, um now the URC, the United Reformed Church, which was a breakoff of the Christian Reformed Church, but also part of the Dutch Reform Um circle, the RCUS, Reformed Church UF, the German Reformed Um Church. So all those groupings were part of NAPARC. The Christian Reform Church was part of Napark for a long time, of course. Uh, but then uh back in the 90s, we the denomination um ended up uh embroiled for quite a number of years about the role of women in the life of the church in terms of ecclesiastical leadership. Um, can they be deacons? Can they be elders? Can they be pastors in the Christian Reformed Church? Because it was just you know, being torn apart at the scenes, they eventually do what oftentimes uh denominations will do is they're like, let's just compromise and let's just try to all get along. Um, so they they came up with a position where both positions are defensible biblically, uh, the synod said, using a reform hermeneutic. And so that was a bridge too far. And so as a result of that, then to we the CRC was was removed from NAPAR. And uh, and then so we have not had formal fraternal relationships with the PCA or the OPC since then. We have a lot of informal relationships with people like myself who who have gone to, let's say, a Westminster West, uh, for instance. And uh we interact, many of us with the United Reformed Church. Uh we have family members, loved ones. In fact, most of my family are in the United Reformed Church now, um, are no longer Christian. In fact, I I was raised Christian Reformed in Coopersville, not that far from here. But uh I'm the only member of the Christian Reformed Church left in my family, and of of a number of siblings and my folks, um, all who are my folks are still alive too. But uh uh so my my oldest brother is actually an OPC pastor and an immigration lawyer. So if any of your congregations are struggling with immigration law issues, specifically with religious workers, um, with pastors and whatnot, I'd highly recommend my brother Todd Wagamaker. And uh so he's an OPC pastor down in the Fort Worth, Texas area, and he's served in uh other places too, like in the St. Louis area and an OPC and up in Holton, Michigan, and the UP, and uh he served as two CRC churches prior to that. And then uh my uh my younger brother is a URC pastor um in the United Reformed Church nearby here, not that far, like a half hour away from me. And uh that's where my folks are members at. And then my younger sister, she married a PCA pastor. So um, so actually, but he's now OPC presently, but uh and he was also served over in Australia for a couple years with the Presbyterian Church of Australia. So we have a lot of Presbyterians that kind of work their way in, or we kind of work our way in. I don't know which which begins first, uh, but there has been a lot of interplay, at least on the Wagamaker clan, uh, between the Presbyterian side and uh the Dutch Reform side, the like the Christian Reformed Church.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Now you you've alluded to a couple of these things already, so but let's maybe dial it in a little bit. In in the world of Presbyterian and Reformed churches, what what's unique about the CREC? Maybe especially thinking about doctrinal standards and and polity, those are that's kind of our two wheelhouses, right, on the show. Um, what what makes you all unique? What would make you distinct?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

With the I I think you called us the CREC there, Ben. Um uh I almost gasped out loud. So um uh apologies.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Apologies.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

You gave us forewarning that that was gonna happen. So I did, yeah. So the the the CRC uh uh in terms of in in terms of our doctrinal background, uh we doctrinally with with the on the Presbyterian side, we hold to the the same sort of principles. Uh the Westminster standards, um, on the Presbyterian side, of course, with the with the English, Scottish kind of influences and formation. On the the Dutch Reformed side, which is the Continental Reformed expression um of the Presbyterian Reformed world, is uh we have the Heidelberg Catechism, and uh we have the Canons of Dork, which I mentioned earlier, and we have the Belgian Confession. So we have what is called the three forms of unity, which uh unites us doctrinally, uh that we go, we go to, I mean, besides obviously the Apostles' Creed, the Athanasian Creed, the Nicene Creed, uh, but then we also submit to, we subscribe to, uh, we're strict subscriptionists, actually, and we don't allow exceptions to to our confessions. I know on the Presbyterian side, I believe you can you can state at the beginning of your of your ordination any areas of difficulty you might have um with uh with certain certain stated specifics of the Westminster Standard. But you gotta defend that. And I think it's it's a Presbytery by Presbytery sort of situation. Um and you I mean you know that you've lived into that more. But on the Christian Reformed Church side, uh you're not allowed to take exceptions to the exception, uh, to the confessions. Um you promise to submit to them, to be governed by them, to conform your teaching to them. If you have a problem with the confessions, you can you can write a gravoman. And that's actually what's been in kind of keeping the the attention of the Christian Reformed Church the past couple synods where we've met. Now you have uh the General Assembly, we have synods. Um, so same process and in the sense that it's a gathering of the churches on the press on the PCA set. I know every church can send delegates. And the Christian Reformed Church, we we have with our classes, you have your presbyteries, of course, within classes. Um, each classes can send four representatives, four delegates um from their classes. So each church doesn't send a delegate to our synod, each classist does, and typically it's usually two pastors and an elder and a deacon. Um historically, it was just it was two pastors and two elders, but they opened that up to deacons a number of years ago. Um, so uh we get together annually. But what we dealt with actually, again, this synod, uh which took place last month in June in Grand Rapids at Calvin University, uh, was this issue of Bravamend about taking exceptions to the confessions, and specifically in regards to the matter of human sexuality, which has kind of embroiled uh uh the broader church world uh the past number of decades. And Christian Reform Church was also swept up in that embroilment. Um, and so we've been dealing with that. So, but anyway, you subscribe to that as an office bearer, as an as a deacon, as an elder, and as a pastor, and uh, and so you say, I'll submit to the decisions of the church. Um, now the the Heidelberg Catechism, for instance, is not as detailed as let's say the Westminster standards. Uh the Westminster standards are much very detailed in a way that the re three forms of unity are not. And so that's for instance one reason why I think on the Presbyterian side you've allowed exceptions. And uh and then on the Dutch Reform side, we're like, nope, it's it's broad enough and yet specific enough that you got you got to agree to the whole thing, um and uh and be conformed and governed by it.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

So and is that true for your members as well, for um your church members as they come and make profession of faith?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Um, you know, that's that we actually this past Senate set up uh a committee, uh a task force to explore unpack that question a little bit more because we in the past we've said when you've made a profession of faith, when you get to that age, usually in your teenage years, and you say, I am affirming what God has been doing in my life, you know, signed and sealed to me in the waters of my baptism when I was a baby, and I'm oh you know, I'm owning Jesus Christ publicly as my Lord and Savior. And I'm also publicly saying I'm part of the church. One of the things that you say is that I believe that what this church is teaching is true and is in accordance with God's word. So there is a this is my language, like a loose subscription when you are a member, that you acknowledge that what you're joining is, yeah, they're teaching the truth of God's word here. Um and so, and you also promise when you become a member to submit to the authorities of the church, to the to the elders of the church and the pastor of the church and the sense of terms of preaching and teaching. And so, in that sense, it's kind of a loose subscription, uh, but it's not to the same degree that we hold office bearers, which is a higher level subscription where um, you know, if you're an a regular member, you can ask questions and even put on your social media like, hey, I'm not quite so sure about this, and um, and even push back against the church sometimes. You only do that so far, and they'll be like, eh, you know, let's we really need to talk about this. You're an office bearer, you're not allowed to uh to do that, uh, to publicly go against the teachings of the church. Uh, and by the church I mean here specifically the reformed confessions, the the Huddeberg Catechism, the Kansas Dor, the Belgian Confession, or the Creeds for that matter, either.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

There's so many places I want to go, but let's uh maybe let's be a longer conversation. Uh let's let's talk um let's talk for generally speaking uh about y'all's synod. So you said there's four uh from each classes are delegated to the synod. So how big does that make that that meeting that y'all had in Grand Rapids?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

That we have what is we have, I think 49 classes in the Christian Reformed Church. Each each one sends four, so kind of doing that just a little bit shy under 200. Uh and that, and that's if every every class sends four delegates. Once in a while, uh, classes can't get four delegates, they send three delegates or even two delegates. Um, sometimes there's a struggle uh to find enough, but most classes send all four delegates. So, you know, you have that lesson, you have some advisors on the side, you have some faculty advisors from Calvin Seminary who are kind of the theologians that if you have a question, they can you want to ask them, they sit in on committee meetings. You have we have ethnic advisors as well, a handful of them. Uh, we have some young adult advisors then too. They just sit in on meetings and they don't have the right to a vote. Um, they can speak if they want to. Uh, they but again, they can't vote and they're just an added sort of voice. Plus, you have denominational staff. So, plus you have people who just sit in like myself, past number of sentence, and been watching and giving some reports for for myself with the Abide Project, um, which is uh a uh part of a renewal movement in the Christian Reformed Church, but more than that, it's upholding the teachings of the Christian Reformed Church. Um, the Abide Project is. Uh it's it hasn't been trying to um to introduce anything new in the denomination. It's saying this is what we believe, this is what we always believe, this is what we we say we believe, let's know why we believe it, and specifically in regards to human sexuality and the reformed confessions.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Well, so uh maybe uh, you know, when I think about our own assembly this last year, I think you know there's probably 10 things I would talk about. Maybe we don't have time for 10 things from y'all's uh Senate meeting. But what would be the first, you know, what are the first couple of things that come into your mind about the the big ticket items that happened at y'all's senate this year?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, uh this is kind of uh uh year three of an ongoing, I don't want to say conversation, more a decision making in the life of the Christian Reformed Church. Um back uh back in, I believe it was 2015, uh the synod uh commissioned a study committee, a large study committee dealing with human sexuality. Uh that was to report in the year 2020. Uh COVID exploded everything. And so I at the time I was on the council of delegates, which is kind of synod in the interim, and we meet a couple times a year, and each class has one delegate to that. And so we kind of met as a synod in in lieu of synod, the council of delegates, knowing that that report wasn't going to be dealt with by us, it had to be dealt with by synod. So synod 2021 uh dealt with uh excuse me, synod 2022 dealt with uh the the issue of of human sexuality because again, synod 2021 didn't meet either uh because of COVID. And so uh so synod 2022 met and they said, you know, it was called the human sexuality report, the HSR. Uh this is the position of the Christian Reformed Church. We have always held to a traditional biblical understanding of human sexuality, for instance, one man, one woman uh is what is what marriage is, anything outside of that sexually is um is sexual immorality. And um, and so uh so we took a strong line on that. And though that vote was like 75% to 25% in the Christian Reformed Church, which surprised many people that it was that strong of a margin because there had been a growing undercurrent in certain circles, and especially around like Calvin University, um, sort of the administrative hub of the Christian Reformed Church that had been pushing in a different direction, an open and affirming kind of direction. Um, with many in the culture, you know, the movement that we've seen in the PCUSA, we've seen in the the RCA, the the old Dutch Reformed Church, the Reformed Church of America, the UCC. I mean, we've seen it played out. Um, and it captivated the attention and the imagination and some of the ministry models. In the Christian Reformed Church, too. And so, but so this was a response to that saying, no, this is the biblical position. This is the doctrinal position of the church. So when the Christian Reformed Church deals with the commandment that you shall not commit adultery, that the excuse me, the Hotel Catechism, the Christian Reformed Church Synod said when it talks about unchastity in there, that includes all extramarital sort of sex, pornography, homosexual sex, all that is under the umbrella of unchastity and is not permitted. So that was Synod 2022 said that this is again the position of the Christian Reformed Church said it very strongly. Synod 2023 dealt with appeals to that, because there were a number of churches and classes that appealed that decision and said, no, that's not right. That's not in line with how we understand scripture. And so Synod 2023 came back and said it actually is right. And in fact, when we said the previous year that this is a confessional issue, we mean it. This is a confessional issue. This is not an issue where you can agree to disagree, kind of an issue. Like like was taken on the matter of women's ordination. Um this is uh this is uh an issue that biblically, we're using even reformed hermeneutics, you can only come to one position. And uh you can't come to two biblically defensible positions on this. And in fact, this is a confessional issue. This is so if you're a teacher, you're or if you're a pastor, if you're an elder or a deacon, you have to submit to that. Um, you have to teach this. You can't be, or you know, you can't be officiating a same-sex wedding, for instance, um, which um which was starting to gain ground in some churches and some quarters, and um, and putting someone in a same-sex marriage as a deacon in uh in one of the churches. And that was happening also in the Christian Reformed Church. And so there was a disciplinary function that also took place that was put into place by Synod 2022 for one church in particular that was flaunting, um uh externally, very much publicly flaunting what the Christian Reformed Church taught and how it behaved. They were given a year to come back into line with this committee that met with them. Committee said we met with them, we met with their classes, and nothing's happening. Uh, so Synod 2023 said, You got to stop doing this. You have to come in line with the the Christian Reformed Church. But essentially, we'll give you another year to come into line with the denomination. And so um, and in the meantime, there were those voices that were saying, Well, you know, you can take exception to the confessions. Um, we we have a process called a gravimen, and and so it there is a confessional revision gravimen, which is to change the the wording of the confessions, and there's a confessional difficulty gravomen, which Synod a number of years ago came up with, which is I have some personal struggles maybe with something that confessions teach. And so there were some who were teaching it or promoting saying you can have a confessional difficulty gravamin, which is essentially you can take an exception to the confessions and be in the Christian Reformed Church. And there were a number of our voices saying you can't do that. We're strict subscriptionists here in the Christian Reformed Church. And if you do that, then the doors fly open on everything. Because what else can you take an exception to? Uh a classist doesn't approve that. You just have to go to your local congregation or local council and say, hey, I have a problem with this. And if they're all on the same page, for instance, if the majority of your council is like, yeah, we should, it's okay to marry two men, for instance, and they're all on the same page, there's nothing in theory anything anyone else could do about it. They were um uh they were saying. Um, you know, authority lies ultimately in the local congregation and uh primary authority. And so this synod dealt with that issue. Um, can you essentially take an exception to the confessions? Can you have a confessional difficulty gravimen? Where uh where I put it this way, and someone's put it this way. It's like you're crossing your fingers behind your back when you take your ordination vows. And you say, I I promote and defend the teachings of the Christian Reformed Church, the confessions, um, I subscribe to it, I submit to it, and and so this synod dealt with that issue. Can you take an exception or not? Essentially, um, and what this synod said was you cannot do that. Um, and again, uh by a vote of 75% to 25%. Uh, you can't take exceptions to the confessions. This is a confessional issue. And in fact, one of the other matters that was dealt with then by the synod was dealing with those churches that were in flagrant disregard, um, and I would say rebellion against the the church and synod, the past couple synods. They they were churches in protest and formally so. Um, they put that as a type of a category. They said we're part of the Christian Reformed Church, but we're churches in protest officially, um, which means we want to remain Christian Reformed Church, but we're not agreeing with the issue of human sexuality of the confessions. And so we we disagree with that, and we're still going to be open, we want to be open and affirming. Um, and so could you do that in the Christian Reformed Church? So this was a this on some level was a discipleship discipline sort of uh sort of synod. Will synod discipline these churches and what will that look like? Um and so this synod did discipline them, um said uh decided you have uh if if you are, for instance, an office bearer, a pastor or an elder, and you put out there in a very public way that you disagree disagree with the confessions on this one. Um, if your church did that, because some church councils were making statements by counsel, I mean that's your version of the session. Um, so we call it a council. And so if your council put out a statement saying we're open and affirming, you have uh you have up to a year to uh to and immediately uh uh the process has to start to rescind that or to disaffiliate from the Christian Reform Church. So it that has to happen in a year. So um, and if you've done that as an office bearer, you are immediately on suspension, limited suspension, which means as an office bearer, you can't be delegated to classes, you can't be delegated to synod, you can't be on a board, on a denominational board if you're an office bearer and you've done that. So you're you are to resign from those boards or be removed from those boards, from the denominational boards, if you've taken that position, or if you're a member of a church uh that has taken that position and an office bearer in that church. And so, or if you're a member of a classes that has taken that position too. Um so there was this limited suspension. And again, a year's time frame was given to either bring yourself back into alignment with the confessions, with the teaching of the church, the global historic understanding, especially on issues of human sexuality, is kind of that issue right now. Um, or in a year's time, you have to no longer be Christian reformed. You can go find another church home. Well, help you find another church home, another denominational home if you need that help. You know, the RCA, for instance, could be a good home for some, or the PCUSA, or the UCC for some of them, perhaps. Or some might they're talking about maybe they create their own breakoff denomination. That's that's an open and affirming kind of denomination. Um, and you could get an extra year of extension if you are in that process, for instance, of disaffiliating, but you just for legal purposes, you need to cross your T's and dot your I's. And so you could have an extra period of time. Also, too, back to the office bearers. I mentioned about a one-year time frame for disaffiliation or coming into alignment for a church. Um, for individual office bearers, um, you if uh if you are a present office bearer and you hold to a position on human sexuality is different than the confessions, uh, you have um up to three years to come into alignment. Um and uh if you're an existing office bearer, and if not, when your term is over, because we have three-year terms, that's a polity issue, then too. It's not a lifetime kind of office. So when you're an elder, you're an elder for three years, and then your term is over. And then you're usually off for at least three years, and you could be put back up again as an elder and serve again for another three years, and you're off usually for three years, you could put back up again. Same thing for deacons, um, and on the on the lay side of things. Uh, so if you haven't come into alignment after your term is is up, if you're an existing office bearer, you can't be put up for office again um in the Christian Reform Church until you bring yourself back into alignment with uh with the reform teaching on this. Um if you're someone You were talking about just a gold.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah, you were talking about a moment ago with um the I think it was like two, like uh item two B you're talking about with the removal, the process for removal. Um, when you guys were meeting, wasn't there were there was a majority opinion and two minority opinions, and it seemed the majority and the one of the minorities came together. What well how how did that look and why why was there a unification on on that idea of how churches or pastors leave? Um what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yes, that that came together at the end because of what happened earlier in Synod. That Synod set a good pattern for or came very strongly again with like a 75-25% vote, um, saying that uh um that there is discipline that that needs to happen, that disaffiliation um is is the path in which you're gonna go. And so the the they saw the writing on the wall, um, that committee that eventually reported at the end, and they're like, Senate has made its decision, um, we know where we stand. So, with that reality, based on how we're approaching, um approaching, for instance, congregations and uh and office bearers, even in the conversation, because a lot of that conversation just melded together, even though they're different reports, they all were heading in the same direction. They're all dealing with matters of discipline. Um, on a congregational level, on an office bearer level. And so that's why uh initially there was disagreement in that committee as the best way to go forward, but they saw the conversation earlier in synod, they saw the votes, and the committee met again and was like, okay, let's um let's just go forward in in terms of where we see the the decisions that have been made in the past. And so that's why they came essentially with a unified, uh, a unified report, essentially, um, at the end. There was one lone voice who who wanted uh who was who wanted an open and affirming kind of uh way way of going forward. Uh let's just have a big tent sort of approach. And and synodists said, no, you can't you can't be Christian Reformed and have a big tent report, uh, you know, approach on on something that's a confessional issue. Um this isn't just this is a this isn't a non-confessional issue. Let's say women's ordination is a non-confessional issue because it's not spelled out in the reformed confessions. And so it's a the the Christian Reformed Church said this is a discernment issue. So this is an issue we've decided we can agree to disagree, but the issue of human sexuality is spelled out very clearly in the Heidelberg Catechism, for instance, how we're supposed to conduct ourselves. And so it's a confessional issue. This is not uh an agree to disagree. And that earlier in the synod, again, they said that. Uh then they knew, okay, this is this is where we're at. This we're not going to create the space then to allow disagreement on uh on this issue.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

What will this do for your other your educational institutions? Um, I know you have Calvin University, Trinity, and Pelos and some other institutions. Uh, what what do the current interpretive understanding confessionally from the CRC, what are the implications for your schools?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, that that's a good question, Scott. The uh and the the implications are going forward that these boards, the membership of the boards, uh, of the denominational boards have to be in alignment with uh the denomination's position. Now educationally, Trinity Christian College, for instance, is not owned, owned by the Christian Reformed Church. Redeemer University isn't, uh Dort University is not. Um, those are some of the ones that uh have Christian reform heavily influenced links and ties, uh, but they are not formally part of the, it's not a Christian reformed institution. The only one that is on the university side is Calvin University. And so Synod has to approve every single board member who is on Calvin University's board. Um traditionally, usually that's just rubber stamped because the board kind of puts its names forward. You have some representatives on the board who are elected, elected, selected by the classes regionally. Um you have some who are at large members, some who represent the alumni. All of those still have to be approved by the Christian Reformed Church Synod. So going forward, I suspect there will be a greater move to say we need to be more serious about our reformed confessions, and not just even on the issue of human sexuality, but more broadly than too. And so I suspect greater questions will be asked of future board members going forward. Where are you in alignment with this? Um, and I suspect within these boards there will be conversations um and kind of gut check conversations like can you in in with integrity keep serving on this board? Because you I know you aren't in alignment with the confessions here, the reformed confessions, but you're on the board. Um, so there's an element of integrity. Uh the Christian form church generally is not a heavy-handed denomination. There's a lot of trust um that takes place. Um, this uh and so so some of this is just going to work itself out over the coming years of some of these boards um by asking those questions by synod, then being more rigorous, maybe, and asking the questions of uh upcoming board members. So some on there who maybe aren't as who aren't in alignment, their term gets up and they're not on anymore, and they get replaced with someone who is in alignment, for instance. Uh things move slowly within institutions. Um but if you have the principles down, uh things change in institutions. And this way I'd say they'll change in a healthier direction. Um, so long as, again, there is the will of the churches, the will of the body uh to live into our commitments. That our covenant. I mean, we've covenanted together on this issue. And and if you aren't in agreement with it, you know, spend your energies and your talents with in areas where you can be an agreement, but don't undermine the mission of the church. Don't undermine the um the position of the church in regards to its teachings. Um, so that applies to Calvin University. Calvin Seminary is also the denomination seminary that applies to the board members there. They have to be in alignment um with the denomination's position. If not, these board members should resign. And uh, and then and uh so I mean with integrity, that's what should happen with these boards. Same thing with the council delegates, which is synod in the interim. Every member from there needs to be in alignment. If they're not, they have to resign. And and if they're not resigning, they could get forced out um by the by the council delegates as well. They could force out a fellow a fellow member. Um, so some of that is internal policing, some of that is external synonical policing.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

So when I know that you also pass like a we call it a ministerial obligation uh like contract. I think you have like a covenant that you sign every year, I think now from the last synod. Uh, will that be required for your professors at those uh institutions? Uh, what does it look like? What are their responsibilities to the synod as like a professor?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

As a professor, they are not off, they're not considered office bearers. For instance, um at Calvin University, you're you can be a professor, but you're not considered an office bearer in the church. However, to be a professor at Calvin University specifically, you have to um sign uh a type of a covenant um where you are in alignment with the denomination's teachings, and you're not allowed to teach against what the synod has said is a confessional issue. And so these professors then uh need to teach in alignment with the denomination, um, with the reformed confessions. They're not allowed to teach against it. Now, there's academic freedom um outside of the specific teachings of the confessions, where professors can explore things, can push against things, can ask questions. Um historically, that's been allowed in in our higher institutions. It's been encouraged in one sense because sometimes that's how you expand the boundaries of our knowledge, of our understanding, is giving academics the opportunity to ask hard questions, sometimes to push back against the established way of thinking. Um, but on confessional issues, the faculty is not supposed to do that. And in fact, as we told you you can't do that. Um, and uh and then would be asked to then leave, I I trust, and and have we we've had some faculty leave Calvin University over this issue in the past couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Yeah. Well, in the middle of all this, I mean what I hear uh is that there's some encouraging things and some challenging things, especially as y'all move forward. Um what what else is well maybe there's nothing else, but anything else that came up at y'all's synod that that is worth mentioning uh to share with the you know the broader reformed Presbyterian world?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Well, I think you mentioned the broader, the broader world then. That that brings up one of the one of the the wonderful, exciting things that we've been seeing in the Christian Reformed Church. I know it's not just only in the Christian Reformed Church, um, but we've been seeing churches outside the outside of North America who have been intrigued and drawn to the reformed faith. And so we've established been establishing relationships increasingly so with a number of church bodies in place, let's say Venezuela or Colombia, um, who have been drawn to the reform faith. And so we came up with uh the council of delegates has been thinking through with the general secretary of the denomination what does it look like to be in relationship with these churches, as well as to be in relationship with other Christian Reformed churches. There's the Christian Reformed Church of Nigeria, for instance, is larger than the Christian Reformed Church of North America, um, by like 100,000 members. And so uh there's the Christian Reformed Church of the Philippines, uh, the Christian Reformed Church uh is scattered in different places, Christian Reformed Church in Cuba, actually. So the Christian Reformed Church is as a presence in many different parts of the world in different sized bodies, but we've never we we have a connection with them, but we don't do much with them. We we have fraternal delegates that will visit each other's synods, um, but that largely has been the extent of it. And we've and I shouldn't say on our mission, our missionaries on the field, there's been a collaboration um that takes place there too. But um, these are places where missionaries from the Christian Reformed Church years ago went and the church was planted and it's grown um organically, indigenously there. So we have uh a vision team, a global vision team that's been set up to help Synod work through what does it look like to be the Christian Reformed Church more globally? Um, more More expansively to collaborate together and talk together. So that's an exciting part in the church because that's where we've seen the growth in the Christian Reformed Church. Historically, again, we've been Dutch Reformed. We were largely fed by Dutch immigration movements. And so wherever you see the Dutch settle, you would see the Christian Reformed Church kind of sprout up. We a couple of decades ago, we intentionally were working away from that to say we're not just Dutch. We're, you know, we're American, we're Canadian, because we have almost a third of our churches are north of the border in Canada. And so we're a binational denomination. That's also something very unique about the Christian Reformed Church. And uh and we've had a long-standing relationship um between the Canadian and the American churches. We're one denomination. But uh uh but what does it mean to be Christian Reformed where you're not Dutch? And so we've actually been seeing a lot of the growth in the CRC among our Hispanic, for instance, and Korean congregations. So we have a growing number of Korean Christian Reformed churches. We have two different classes, for instance, with you know, like 30 churches each, uh 25, 30 churches in each classes that are just Korean um Christian Reformed churches. And that doesn't include the Korean Christian Reformed churches that are by onesies, twosies, and and uh some of the other classes. Plus, we've been seeing a tremendous growth, and a lot of our church plants now are among Spanish-speaking people in the United States, um, as well as some other different ethnic minority groups um north of the border in Canada, where there's been a lot of immigration taking place. And so we understand this globally as well. Globally, the church is, again, getting back to the issue of human sexuality, globally, the church is very orthodox, um, very biblical on that. And so these many of these ethnic minority communities were saying, hey, if the Christian Reform Church moves in a leftward direction on this, a very um uh culturally accommodating Western sexual liberation kind of approach, we're gone. We're not interested in being part of a denomination that's not biblical on this, and not essentially not counter-cultural in Western culture. Um, so the fact that the Christian Reformed Church, for multiple years in a row now, by large, overwhelming supermajorities, has said this is where we're at um on issues of human sexuality, excuse me, that's been very appealing uh also to many of these church bodies outside the Christian Reformed Church. And even just uh, and maybe this is just an encouragement too, Scott and Ben, as I uh and I've had this conversation too. So you think about what the Christian Reformed Church has done, because the Christian Reformed Church historic has been known the past couple of decades as increasingly very accommodationistic to the culture. We have given way on many different things. Uh, there have been things in the Christian Reformed Church we've been uh, you know, on board with a global warming sort of uh if you look at the Democrat Party platform on things, uh many in the leadership in the Christian Reformed Church were on board with that. Um and we're even historically we're strongly pro-life denomination, but we saw movement of some trying to pull it away from that. And and so we're like, uh, the Christian warm church is it's long gone, you know. We already see the trajectory. They keep, you know, they liberalize on women's ordination, they liberalize on on global warming kind of issues, they liberalized on, you know, just just name it. Um uh and the Christian Warm Church was heading in this direction. Um and then, but now we've we've demonstrated that a denomination can actually correct course and can move in a healthier direction, a more biblical direction, a um uh a direction that is in line with with the reformed confessions. And and I and I hope that's an encouragement to the broader, broader church community more broadly, that that things can change um uh through prayer. And that's something that uh people have been really much more intentional with prayer um on this praying for God to send this renewal, this revival, by just going back to God's word, spending a lot of time just unpacking it, studying it, preaching from it. Let's take it seriously again. I think we've seen more of a revival, and I would say the renewal revival in the Christian Reformed Church to let's get back to our roots in terms of scripture and the authority of scripture and having confidence in it, in our preaching and our teaching. And the reformed confessions are an expression of that, and that a denomination can actually move in a can correct course and can move in a healthier direction if there are those who are part of it, who are committed to it, who are like, this is in God's providence where he's put us. We're gonna contend for the faith and we're gonna do it winsomely, but we're gonna do it unapologetically, and we're gonna do it in a way that uh we want to see God's glory and his kingdom be advanced. Um, I would say that's an encouragement to other denominations that there's hope. Um, you can stand against the culture, and that you can stand against the cultural tide, and you can actually move in a biblical direction against the culture. And uh, and that I I believe I'm that that is going to be winsome. That will always be winsome to God's people. I mean, the Holy Spirit will always keep drawing out through his electing love, his people, and he will draw them to himself, and that will be winsome when God's people are faithful to God's word. Um, and and I think the Christian worm church in the future, I'm hopeful, will be more, will become more appealing again for those who love the Reform faith and want to be more serious about it and God's word. Um we used to we used to be known more for that, but we lost that the past couple of decades. And I see this again as a movement, a grower move, growing movement in the Christian World Church to reclaim that, um, that seriousness uh with the authority of God's word, uh, not needing to be so accommodating to culture. In fact, it's okay to be counter-cultural. In fact, it's necessary in certain ways. You can be counter-cultural. This is a shameless, I'm gonna do a shameless plug a second. Speaking of that, um uh another pastor and myself, um uh Lloyd Hemp Street, nearby. We we do a podcast, uh weekly podcast. We call it the Three Forms Podcast there. And but uh you can find it on many different things. But it's it's a half hour every week, Tuesday. We drop a new episode and we spend just a half hour, and we right now we're just taking the Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day by Lord's Day. We're just going through it each Lord's Day. Spend a half an hour just talking about it. He and I back and forth with scripture, unpacking it. And when we're done with the Heidelberg Catechism, we're a little over halfway through it now. We will then we'll move our way into maybe the Belgian confession will be next. We'll work our way through that, then we'll go to the Kens of Dor. We'll work our way through that, hence the the three forms, the three forms of unity, a three forms podcast. So we said this is part of this broader awakening of the what it means to be confessional and trying to be formed and corrected by God's word and and having excitement and a joy about it. And do we get to teach this? Um, that this is not some, these are not some dead dry documents. Like the Heidelberg Catechism is so winsome, so personal, so beautiful in so many ways. And it was a birthright that too many in the Christian formed church was like, ah, I don't want this. And we too many sold it for a for a uh you know, a bowl of of stew. And um uh they sold their birthright, and they're like, ah, it's not that not that big, not that important, or why are we teaching it? And which is too bad because I I say this is actually a way to regain that, and we're seeing more of a regaining of that.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Well, uh thank you. Um that that is very encouraging. I I think your point there about uh that uh that a denomination can turn is uh is especially uh poignant. Um maybe the most important question I'm going to have asked you this whole time coming up, and uh well, just just take it for what it's worth. How many food-based social events are take place around y'all's synod meeting, especially those focused around frozen desserts like like ice cream or the or or the like? Uh I mean, is that is that a prominent position? This is for my own personal research, so whatever you're willing to share, it's just fine.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Um has a healthy number of breaks, uh, which are needed because it it starts at like eight in the morning and goes till like nine at night, and then you have lots of meetings afterwards. So, like sleep is very little a lot of times for those who are delegates ascended. So, yes, they there are meals, uh, of course, breakfast, lunch, suppers, the main ones. Of course, they have snacks um uh midway through the morning, midway through the afternoon on there. No ice cream, actually. I shouldn't say that uh there is ice cream in the social hall or in the dining hall usually, but no ice cream formal breaks. But let me tell you this we have a lot. They this year at this synod, like almost every break had cake, Costco cake, um uh, which is amazing, or other similar kinds of cakes, which uh uh you if you're on a diet going into synod, it's hard to stay on that diet. Um uh because it's like food, food, food. And then if you're a stress eater, then it's like blah blah blah blah blah. Um uh because like I'm so stressed out, I need food. Um uh it's my coping mechanism. Um, so synod is not good for weight. Uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. That uh so so the the Christian Reformed Church is all about cake. That's what I'm hearing. Uh we're trying to get ice cream going again in the PCA, but the Dutch love their pastries.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Um uh, you know, we uh I I we should really actually do do more with them on the pastry side because you go to the Netherlands and some of the best pastries you'll ever have in Europe you'll find in in the Netherlands. So we don't do a whole lot of other stuff that well with with main meals, but boy, our pastries. So that's that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

So well, we're gonna uh we're gonna bring it in for a landing. You were right. We we uh tested the limits of our hour uh that we'd given ourselves. Uh as Abraham Kuyper would say, this podcast is over. Thanks for joining us. Uh, if you're interested in learning more about anything that we've talked about, do check out the show notes in your podcast player, or you can go to see those at Politymatters.org. Our uh big thanks to Tyler Wagonmaker for joining us. We were glad to have you, brother. And uh thank you for having me. Hope to run into you again sometime in the future. If you've got questions, comments, you can contact us at Politymattersfeedback at gmail.com or find any of us on Twitter and the show notes have all that information. Thanks again for spending time with us. Uh until next time, say goodbye, gentlemen. Goodbye. Y'all take care of the thing.