131. Dinner Call (BCO 58 Part Two)

Ben, Scott, and Jared dive into BCO 58, exploring the constitutional requirements and practical nuances of administering the Lord's Supper within the PCA.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

BCO 58-5

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Well, Scott's not here to stop me, so we're just gonna cruise. Fifty eight five jump over to the piece here. The table on which the elements are placed being decently covered and furnished with bread and wine, and the communicants orderly and gravely sitting around it or in their seats before it, the elders in a convenient place together, the minister should then set the elements apart by prayer and thanksgiving. The bread and wine being thus set apart by prayer and thanksgiving, the minister is to take the bread and break it, in the view of the people, saying that the Lord Jesus Christ on the same night in which he was betrayed took bread, and when he given thanks, he broke it, gave it to his disciples, as I, ministering in his name, give this bread to you, and said, Take, eat, this is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. Some other biblical account of the institution of this part of the supper may be substituted here. Here the bread is to be distributed. After having given the bread, he shall take the cup, and say, In the same manner he also took the cup, and having given thanks as has been done in his name, he gave it to the disciples, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Drink from it all of you. While the minister is repeating these words, let him give the cup. So here we are to the distribution of the elements, which has been of discussion lately in the PCA. But first, uh the I mean, probably the most pressing question in this section is what in the world does decently covered mean and why is it there? I think we have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I know Jared's told me about this before, so well, I think you can have reflections on like that first sentence has a lot that's in it that you can have reflections on. Number one, table, not altar. Sometimes people are like, Why don't we have an altar call? We don't have an altar. Uh we have a table, uh, and we do have a table call, right? Dinner dinner call.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Burn.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

There's What's the difference between a table and an altar?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Good question.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

On an altar. On the altar, not on a table. Yeah. If I invite you over for dinner and I say, This is the altar in which I'm going to slaughter the pig I'm going to feed to you, then no.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

The main difference I always understood is that a table has legs. An altar is like a box. And so you're in order to have a proper lord's table, you need to be able to see under it.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

That's kind of the What if the tablecloth is covering it? I don't know. No hiding those legs. I think there's something to be reflected on on which the elements are placed. There is a common table. Even if there's not a common some people say, well, there's a common cup. Well, I don't we don't know that there were. There may have been many cups. There's a better case for a common loaf, but there is at least a common table that everything is at. And then the uh being decently covered, yeah, that's my my favorite little thing in there with Morton Smith's comment on it.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Does that mean the table can't wear a bikini? Is that what it's talking about?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Well, here's the first thing. What does that mean? Because I think that you could have two or three different interpretations on that. Does that mean that the elements are there and you cover the elements? That's actually what my church understood it to be, and that's just what they've done from tradition. So, like before we do the supper, you have to uncover the elements. And some people will say, well, that's in there because there used to be flies that got onto it or something.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

I don't know. Others say decently covered means you have a tablecloth, but it's underneath the elements, uh, because it's not really clear what this is referring to. Others say decently covered is in like an Anglican church, you might have, you know, all sorts of different, almost like relics on the table and a golden cross and candles and everything. And this is more like, no, it's decent, it's it's showing that it's a meal, it's not an altar, so it has to be not ornamented. I love Morton Smith's line. He says this paragraph speaks of the table being decently covered. There is no reference to such a requirement in the Bible. It just keeps on moving. You can tell what Morton Smith thought about this line.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

What do y'all tables look like? Yeah, so it's we we have a tablecloth over the table, and we have recently stopped covering up the elements because we have little cloches on top of our elements, and so we don't need something else to cover them up. Also, it's really awkward to watch grown men try to fold a tablecloth, and so it's it's like an American flag. Nobody wants to see that.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

It is like an American flag.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

You need a whole worship song to get through that folding. We just cover the table itself. We don't we have uh the little like covers for the elements themselves that are metal or sterling, whatever, sterling silver, but the table itself is just uh is covered with a cloth.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, we we cover all the elements, like we have a tablecloth, and then we have another cloth that goes on top of the the bread and the and the cups.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Double tablecloth.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

It's that has resulted in things getting knocked on the floor as the tablecloth comes up. So yeah, we're we're not necessarily a fan of it, but the the elders, when I came in, were like, well, it says you do that, so that's what we do. I was like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Here's the chance to talk about the uh elements, right? Furnished with bread and wine. So it has become very common, and I would maybe uh Jared, you'll have to well, both of y'all could correct me if I'm wrong. It's especially in the Southeast. I don't know how how widespread it is in the north to have juice instead of wine in many cases. Our church has juice instead of wine. Some churches I know do both juice and wine. Very I don't think I've can remember the last time I was at a church or heard of a church that only had wine and no juice available. What's y'all's practice? Let's talk about the you know the issue here.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Mix platter. Mix. We both have wine wine and juice. Wine and juice, and the I always get it mixed up one time because we have different colored cups for what's inside the cup. So purple is for wine and clear is for juice, and every six months or so I'll accidentally flip it around when I'm telling people what to drink from. And people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're gonna like you're gonna confuse us. Uh and I I often do. I often put my foot in my mouth. Uh but yeah, we color code our cups to make sure that you get the right element. If only I could remember the color coding. But yeah, we have both.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

In Ascension, every single church had grape juice until very recently, one switched to wine to offer it to have both a mixed platter. I I actually looked into this a while ago. I have an article, you can find it on uh Presbyterian Polity that talked about why we have grape juice and how that happened in the Presbyterian Church, because there were these inquiries from churches that were using grape juice, and they said, Does this fulfill the requirement for wine? And both in the north and the south, basically the answer came back, yes, that does fulfill the requirement for wine. So at least according to ecclesiastical church, you know, tradition in the Presbyterian church that has met the requirement. However, it's up to sessions what they're going to use. And so your session may think, no, wine means wine, and so that's good for your church, but that doesn't mean that you can file a complaint with the church next to you, at least in terms of how it's been commonly understood. I think there's a very good case that you can make that it's really hard to understand the words both in Hebrew and Greek, since it includes basically effervescence, like bubbling, to mean anything other than fermented juice. So I say that, and our church has just grape juice.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Yeah, that point you just made about how the interpretation of wine, does juice meet the requirement? We've talked about in the past how the standard our our doctrinal standards in Westminster are our standards as understood by our denomination, right? So it's it's as we make use of them. And y'all correct me if I'm wrong. We would say the same thing here. So it's as we make use of this constitutional portion of our documents, juice is acceptable here, even though it says wine explicitly. Is that that's kind of what we're getting at? Is that you're not doing anything wrong or anti-constitutional by having juice only?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

It's kind of I think the PCA is kind of taking it similar to how the confession says that we ought to sing psalms.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

And you were no one I mean, there are probably people out there taking exception to that, saying that we s also sing hymns and spiritual songs as well. But the PCA understands the word psalms and the context of the confession of being broader than just the Psalter. And so there's no need to take an exception to that. Just like this is broader than just the fermentation of grapes. And I think I am broader.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah, I I think this is an instance in which sometimes in the BCO, you may have something where it seems like the BCO allows you to do something broader than what scripture does, and some people may say that with wine, and that's that's okay. You just have to know that's it's been interpreted broader than what you think scripture is prescribing here. And some people think it's narrower than what scripture allows. Some people think that with baptism and they say, Well, I think immersion is fine biblically. Well, the BCO doesn't say that, and so we have to live with our BCO and and say if we don't think that it's it's within those bounds, we work to change it, but Yeah. Yeah, it it's just what we what we're living with.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yeah, okay. That's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

In the PCA's fundamentalist era, I think they did try to change it to fruit of the vine to broaden it, and I think it failed. Well, obviously it failed.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

It never passed. I remember Art Sartorius saying though, well, if it's fruit of the vine, and that's a requirement for it can use uh tomato juice, because it looks more like blood and it's it's on a vine. So that doesn't necessarily fulfill everything that was meant there. Yeah. Fruit of the vine meaning grapes.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Something from grape.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Well then I mean that like there has been questions in in like the history of the church on like does rice wine count or like other forms of wine. Like in an eastern country, grape wine might not at least historically be ready readily available. And so what are other forms of wine? Are those allowed to be used? I think we we'd all land on it has to be grape wine, but there are other forms of wine out there that aren't grape wine.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Early missionaries had a Bible in one hand and a grapevine in another. That's that's part of how grape growing became so prevalent throughout the world is Christian missionaries.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

That's cool. I love that. Alright, so the table the table is set, and the next thing the paragraph up there talks about is the the communicants. So they're orderly and gravely sitting around the table, or they're in seats before it, which is just a reference to the sanctuary, right? We can we stop there for a second, I guess. Orderly and gravely.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I love that gravely is still here.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I know it's still in the book.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

We changed it in the elder part, which I didn't like, because gravely means more than dignified. But here gravely serious, right? Yeah. It's a serious matter. You so you're not joking around you're not going up to the table, knocking each other down, telling jokes.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

No, there's there's something s there's something It it is hard uh well uh w what can I tell? The last few times we've had the supper, something has happened in up between the ministers and the elders that has kind of made us chuckle a little bit. And I appreciate I appreciate being like a a joyful reverence mixed with this this orderly and grave. Like I I think I think the supper is meant to be something that we smile about in the end. There's a grave aspect to it, of course. I mean we're s we're talking about the death of the Lord Jesus, right? And so obviously it's not something that's happy.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

It's a serious joy, it's not a goofy joy.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, yeah. And so but it always makes me like I'm always like, oh man, I I really don't need to be laughing, but that was hilarious. Like there was one time where our senior, instead of handing the whole platter of of cups, so instead of picking up instead of picking up the whole plate and handing it to one of our elders, for some reason he picked up an individual small cup out of it and handed it to the elder, and we were all like, What is going on? He was like, Oh, sorry, sorry, and he put it back and handed him the whole plate. But it's hard, you know, like there's stuff happens, right? But uh generally speaking, it is right, and there's there's some language later on about what the people are to do. And so orderly, gravely. And then also, so not only the table and the people are ready, but the elders are in a convenient place together. Uh where what what convenient location have y'all chosen uh in your churches to to place your elders before before all of this begins? Ours are standing up kind of in a semicircle around the front of the table between the pastors and the congregation as we are doing the fencing. So they're they're already standing before we start.

unknown 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

We we have seats, and so they they will sit to give more of the feeling of a table. And so when when we're ready to start handing it out, then they stand up, and when they come back and partake, they sit down again. So we have chairs, but I've seen other churches that everybody is standing, but they're around in the same place around the table. Ours is like the front row.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yeah. I was gonna say, Jared, is it yours yours they're on the front row, or you're saying there are different chairs?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Oh, we set up chairs, like we have the table in the middle, and then we have chairs that are set up around it, so they're sitting behind it on one side almost, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

So they're facing the congregation?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

They're they're facing the congregation, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Just just as you stand in front of the table. But you stand in front of the table, like between them.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

I stand behind it. I stand behind the table.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

So you stand where the elders are sitting is kind of where more of like uh the table is here.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

I'm I'm setting the table, I'm not I'm not taking attention to myself, I'm taking attention to the table.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah, I uh and I wouldn't I was just curious. I'm trying to get a picture in my head of of what y'all are doing because it's different and I love it. Yeah. Um Okay, so everything's ready. Okay, and then the minister should set the elements apart by prayer and thanksgiving. So this is where we pray, not that they the elements are changed, but that they are set apart. They are set apart for particular spiritual use. Any comments on the prayer?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah, I do I do a prayer for both, although there seems to be some hinting that you know you're having a blessing for both. So some people say you need to pray twice. I I do a prayer that covers both, and then at the very end I'll pray again.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, that's how we do it. Yeah. Yeah, we do it pretty much the way it's well.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Now, here's a question because it has something that you say after it. Is this the first Corinthians eleven, or do you do first Corinthians eleven and you also do this? Second, I do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I do what you just said. I do both and both it seems redundant. It does. I do like wonder in my mind, I'm like, this seems redundant. I just literally read this.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Um but I it's the form that I've adopted and I think it's worthy of repeating. It's probably why I haven't memorized so well.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah, so the bread and the wine are set apart, having been prayed for, uh, and thanksgiving, and so the minister deals with the bread first. Let's just point out, and maybe we'll talk about it at well, we can talk about whenever, but this is uh noticeably uh against the practice of intinction. Um we have the bread first, we we uh break it in view of the people. There's words of institution here taken out of the gospels, and then the bread is distributed. So do y'all want to talk about uh the breaking of it and those words kind of of distribution? Or I am curious to talk about distribution, but I mean y'all y'all tell me what you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah, this isn't explicitly the word intinction isn't in here. However, in order to follow these instructions, you couldn't do this and practice intinction because it has the bread first and then distributed. Yeah, and distributed, and then it says after having you know, after that is w is when you have the cup, right? After having given you the bread, then he shall take the cup. And so also drinking um and and eating a soggy piece of bread is not the same thing. And I think you lose some of the symbolism that's there of having these as two separate elements. You know, Christ had his his blood separated from his body, and we're putting them back together. Uh I think you're you're losing something in the midst of that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

You don't have to make theological arguments, it's just absolutely disgusting. Like, you can't tell me with a straight face this is pleasant. This is how my Lord intended for me to experience the suffering. Well, I have to I don't need theological arguments, it's just disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I'm pro-intinction with Oreos, but not not the Lord's.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah, yeah. Oreos now, if that's how the Lord instituted it, I could have very bad temptations, but not with like a not with bread and wine, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

But soggy bread. There is some liberty that's here in that it doesn't tell us exactly how this is distributed, right? I don't I don't know if we have different practices because we've mentioned before, at least I have the Scots table where people come up to the front around a table, and so distributing it happens at the table with the people standing right there. Our church practices passing through the pews, and so we have this instituting at the table, and then the elders will take the elements to the people in the pew so that they can they can partake, but they're not doing it at the table, you know, within a few inches, they're doing it in the pews. I don't know what your guys' practice is or if you have different distributions.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

What you just described is what we do. My question would be Scott, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

That was a Presbyterian invention too, to extend the the seating of the table to the pew itself in order to make it more accessible to the congregation. If uh in the old Scots tradition, when people had to come up to the natural table, um it would extend the life of the service by hours. And because you had to get a group up, they sit down, they have the supper, they leave, the next group comes up. It would take a long time. And so it was a good invention, a very wise invention within the Scottish tradition to make the pews themselves an extension of seats to the table. And I think that's perhaps I would say that's the most Presbyterian way to do it outside of actually sitting at the table. Either sitting at an actual table or using your pew as seats to the table would be in my that's the plainest reading in my opinion of this text. But yeah, that's what we do as well. So it has to be the right way.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So the what what does vary so given that we all do that, the the often another variable is do the people take it when they receive it from the tray, or does everybody hold and take together after everybody's been served? I know one church at least that they hold the how do they do it? I think they they eat the bread whenever they get it, whenever they want to after having received it, but they hold the j the wine and partake of the wine as a whole congregation. We hold both elements and take both elements at the same time after everybody's been served. And usually that's people have received the element and we're waiting, and then either Tim or I, whatever minister is presiding, we will s we will say, and you know, this is the body of Christ broken for you, and then we eat. What I mean, do you all do the same thing? Is it different?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Picture perfect.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, we um we distribute and hold together. Uh for the bread, we partake the bread, and then we distribute the cup and then partake altogether with the cup. And so I I have a kind of order that I do, I will say these words in bold, and then it's distributed, and we were holding, and when it's finally time for us to partake together, I'll have a little two-sentence reflection that connects it with the sermon. Right? So if I was talking about the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ took the cup of judgment so that you might take this cup of blessing, take, drink, and remember what he's given for you. So, you know, some like couple sentence reflection, and then we partake, and then move on to the next element.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I have a question for you guys. Do you have music playing during do you do like scriptural colics? Is it silent?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

What happens during the distribution at your We have uh we have one it's e it's a keyed instrument playing, either the piano or the organ. We'll play just a hymn or something in the background um while we're distributing and waiting. I mean we're we've got a pretty big sanctuary, we've got six elders walking around, we're serving you know, two or two hundred and fifty people, and so it takes several minutes, and so something playing is helpful.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

I was in a church that when they were distributing, so we were on vacation in Michigan, and while they were distributing, they were singing a psalm. So they were singing the psalm and then they would take their element as they're going through. Uh I like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

There was one time in which we had a guest uh piano player who was very young, and she was like, I can do two songs, and I can't do more than that. And so when it came to that time, I just started reading. That's when I was reading like John 6 or reading 1 Corinthians 10 selections. And so while it's being distributed, because there was no music, there was something for them to reflect on. Uh but you could do it in silence too, I think.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

At first pressed in Yazoo City, they did it in silence. It was always there was no music, and I grew on to appreciate that. I'd be actually okay if we did that here. Charlie also liked colics, and so he would read scripture during the distribution. So he wanted to read scripture during the whole distribution, so it'd be silent for most of it, and then when he would serve the elders, he would recite scripture. Um and sometimes some churches will just have recitation of scripture the entire time. Um, but he usually would do two or three scripture readings as he distributed them to the elders themselves.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, at Park Cities, there was a a guy that was there, uh Patrick Lafferty, and he uh when it came to the distribution among the elders, there's like 20 of them that were helping, and he would memorize something, and so as he's distributing it, he's just doing by memory this the section of scripture that he's memorized. I was just like, that was so great. Because it gave me something to reflect on. I'm not just like, oh, he's serving everybody, there's 20 of them. So I love that. So if you have something you can memorize, it's that's

BCO 58-6

SPEAKER_00 20:39

great.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Here, let me read 58.6 because this is directly relevant to our conversation. Since believers are to act personally in all their covenanting with the Lord, it is proper that a part of the time occupied in the distribution of the elements should be spent by all in silent communion, thanksgiving, intercession, and prayer. And so this is exactly what we're talking about, right? What's what's going on with the distribution? Well, some of it needs to be personal reflection. What would we say? Because it's not the sacraments are to be taken spiritually, right? We we we feast on Christ spiritually, and so participation uh with the heart is significant to the the sacrament. Um and so this time can be used for that, in addition to your preparation ahead of time. There's time in the midst of the distribution that we use.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Or after. I mean, we partake and then we just have silence for fifteen minutes, thirty seconds just to reflect and pray, and then you're gonna be a little bit of a man, that is. It's you know, it feels like it's only about 40 seconds.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

So many seconds, it feels like fifteen minutes.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah. I um one of my favorite parts of the supper. So we we just we give the elements to our elders, our ruling elders, and Tim and I have chairs that are up next to the table, and we sit down and uh I will spend a minute, you know, praying once you know, once I sit down, but then it's I love to look up and to be able to look across the the sanctuary. See all of our congregation there, you know, and a lot of them are praying. Some of the kids are kind of, you know, wiggling around and stuff. It's just such a blessing to be able to look up and see everybody participating. That's that's cheesy and and goobery, but there you go. Um what else? We're we're gonna get to sort of the the closing words here, but anything else about distribution elements? You said what you want to say. All right.

BCO 58-7

SPEAKER_01 22:21

So fifty-eight seven. The minister may, in a few words, put the communicants in mind of the grace of God in Jesus Christ held forth in the sacrament, and of their obligation to be the Lord's, and may exhort them to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith they are called, and as they have professedly received Christ Jesus the Lord, that they be careful so to walk in him and to maintain good works. It may not be improper for the minister to give a word of exhortation also to those who have been only spectators, reminding them of their duty, stating their sin and danger, by living in disobedience to Christ and neglecting this holy ordinance, and calling upon them to be earnest and making preparation for attending upon it at the next time of its celebration. Then the minister is to pray and give thanks to God for his rich mercy and invaluable goodness vouchsafed to them in that sacred communion, to implore pardon for the defects of the whole service, and to pray for the acceptance of their persons and performances, for the gracious assistance of the Holy Spirit to enable them as they have received Christ Jesus the Lord so to walk in him, that they may hold fast that which they have received, that no man take their crown, that their conversation may be as becomes the gospel, that they may bear about with them continually the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in their mortal body, that their light may so shine before men that others seeing their good works may glorify their Father who is in heaven. An offering for the poor or other sacred purpose is appropriate in connection with this service and may be made at such time as shall be ordered by the session. Now let a psalm or hymn be sung, and the congregation dismissed with the following or some other gospel benediction. Now the grace of now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. This is some of the weirdest BCO writing in the whole book.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

The formatting on this is a mess.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

It's horrible. I have a favorite phrase, by the way, now I think from the whole book, but I'll tell you about that in just a second.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, usually the bold tells you like something that you can just say. Nope, but not here. No, this is this is more like earlier when it was a list of different things that you can hit on.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Okay, so there's there's two basically it's saying, all right, before before you close in prayer, you want to address two groups of people. You want to address the communicants, right? And say something to them. Really helpful phrasing here, but just not something you can read. You've got to figure out uh how to rephrase it to encourage the folks in what has just happened and what's actually going on. I mean, do y'all do y'all do it like this? This is probably the the this is probably the portion that we leave out the most if if we leave one out, um, is this these particular forms.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

I sometimes do some of this with the fencing of the table before the sacrament's distributed. And so I like I call all to participate in the sacrament, but if you're an unbeliever, you're participating in a different way. I'm calling you to repent of your sins and let the plate go by. And the same for you non-communicate members. Like, don't waste this opportunity. This is a time for you now to confess Christ and meet with the session and profess that faith publicly. And so I call all to participate. And I think the participation is perhaps given the idea of that is found here. I just do that before the distribution of the elements when I'm fencing the table and giving exhortation.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah, I just have that as part of my kind of reflection after distributing the elements, and then I pray at the end. I don't follow this format in this exact order.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

My favorite phrase, by the way, now is it may not be improper. Man, that's fantastic. How can we be s like as ambiguous as possible? It may not be improper.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

It might be improper, but it might not be improper.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Right, for real. Like, we're not sure. It's probably not wrong for the the minister to do this. Yeah. Yeah, uh, Jared, you've talked about it in the past. I don't remember if you've done it or you've thought about doing it, but uh, we don't take up an offering for the poor or other purpose uh at a communion service. Have you guys done this or I feel like you've mentioned it.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

I filled in at an OPC church that uh when we did the com did communion service, they would always do this. Uh so it was a diaconal offering. So it was an offering that was taken up particularly for needs in the church, not for your general offering. So you had your other offering that you did, and they had a box in the back for that, but this was a special offering that they did um right after communion that would go towards needs of people in the church that came up.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

We um just looking at the singing a psalm or hymn afterwards, we we usually will have our so we have three hymns in our traditional services, and w when we have the Lord's Supper, we s we have the same hymn whenever we have the Lord's Supper as our third hymn, and we split it in half. And so we sing the first two verses while the elders are getting up and getting ready to for the table, and then we sing the last two verses after we have participated in the sacrament, and then we have the benediction. And it's not always I guess I guess it says it's some other gospel benediction.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I I find it odd that it includes this at all.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

I mean, every worship service ends with uh this benediction or some other gospel benediction. A little redundant, but how else are we ending our services?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Well, it seems to be suggesting Hebrews 13 benediction for the end. Which I mean is also a good suggestion on funerals. Whereas usually you're doing numbers. I knew I knew a PCA uh pastor who said that the only one that you should do is the number six one, but he's at odds with the PCO here.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah, I mean I use Hebrews 13 and other services outside of the supper too. I kind of have a rotation for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I do the same benediction every time. I'll just second 2 Corinthians. End of 2nd Corinthians. But maybe I'll start doing this one if I five benedict a uh uh communion service, maybe I'll use this now. Since it may not be improper for me to do so. May not be improper. Maybe but listen, if I'm doing something, there's a good chance it may be improper, just to be fair. So yeah, I think we've

BCO 58-8

SPEAKER_01 28:27

about finished this thing. Let's hit this last one, which we've already alluded to uh a bit. 588, as past custom has been found in many parts of the Presbyterian Church. Oh my. Our congregations are urged to have a service of spiritual preparation for the Lord's Supper during the week previous to the celebration of the sacrament. So this is talking about something we've already talked about from the very beginning of the chapter, but it's got this word urge in there, and also some reference to past custom in many parts of the Presbyterian Church, and also why is it here in the chapter? What is going on? Please tell me that Rickard is this is one of the chapters he wants to reorganize. Is it? Is that one of the ones that we're denying? No. Somebody make sense of this. Jared, you got any sense of this?

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I I think if you had a congregation that wouldn't want to do anything unless the BCO authorized it, be like, you're authorized. And there are some congregations though that like, if it suggests something, they'll do it. That's I have a friend that's at a church that's like if the BCO suggests something, we do it. And so Well, they're urging it here.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Urging, not just congregations are urged.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

This is pious urging.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah, I mean, I we've we've talked about this already, I guess. It's just f weird the way that it's here.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Uh it has it does have historical precedent for something like this to be in a BCO. Um, I think we are people that are just trying our best to preserve Sunday at all costs, and we don't typically have worship services on Saturday or Monday. Um, but I think that's with the context. Um other BCOs in the 1700s, 1800s had more than one worship service in the week. We may have a Wednesday evening service as churches, but I think there was at least in a different era an opportunity for congregations to worship on Saturday to prepare for Sunday or Monday. It's just not in our lingua franca for today. Or even our French language.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah.

Goodbye!

SPEAKER_01 30:21

It may not be improper to say that this podcast is a very important thing. Thank you for joining us, and uh, we we appreciate y'all's support and engagement as we work through these portions of the directory. We are amping up for GA. I just, you know, we haven't really talked much about GA coverage, but uh listeners, y'all stay tuned. We're starting to plan a little bit about covering overtures and you know how we're gonna have to have 12 episodes just to cover the overtures. But we'll we'll do all our normal GA stuff. Stay tuned. Uh, there's links below where you can support us and you can follow us on social media. Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast. A new feature actually of our hosting software is that you can send us a text. I think the technical phrase down there in the notes is send us fan mail, but we can now respond to you there. We used to. We didn't know who you were, we couldn't respond to you in any way, it didn't even show your full phone number, but now uh if you send us something uh in that way, we can respond to you directly. So uh, if you want to engage, you can do that. Of course, a lot of y'all out there have our emails or phone numbers, and you can just uh email us or call us or text us. Don't text me, text Scott. Uh don't text me, text Scott, yeah. So I think that's all I've got to say. Do you guys, unless y'all have anything at all, and we're all aching for this to be over. So until next time, say goodbye, gentlemen. Goodbye. Take care.