139. Scott, Take Care of It (BCO 61)

Ben, Jared, and Scott walk through Chapter 61 of the PCA Book of Church Order ("The Burial of the Dead"), discussing the theology and practicalities of conducting funerals and graveside services. They cover how to balance worshipping God with comforting the living, navigate sensitive pastoral situations like cremation and services for unbelievers, and train ministry interns in funeral care.

Referenced Links & External Resources

• Leading in Worship by Terry L. Johnson: Liturgical resource cited for graveside committal services.
• Article by Steven Spinnenweber: Article (and accompanying sermon) on preaching the gospel clearly while conducting his sister's funeral.
• The Book of Common Prayer (1662 & 1979 editions): Historical liturgical references for burial orders.
• Matthew Henry's Deathbed Reflection.
  Upon his death bed, Matthew Henry wrote this note to his loved ones, to be read when he had passed.
  “Would you like to know where I am? I am at home in my Father's house, in the mansions prepared for me here. I am where I want to be – no longer on the stormy sea, but in God's safe, quiet harbor. My sowing time is done and I am reaping: my joy is as the joy of harvest. 
  Would you like to know how it is with me? I am made perfect in holiness. Grace is swallowed up in glory. 
  Would you like to know what I am doing? I see God, not as through a glass darkly, but face to face. I am engaged in the sweet enjoyment of my precious Redeemer. I am singing hallelujahs to Him who sits upon the throne, and am constantly praising Him. 
  Would you know what blessed company I keep? It is better than the best on earth. Here are the holy angels and the spirits of just men made perfect...I am with many of my old acquaintances with whom I worked and prayed, and who have come here before me. 
  Lastly, would you know how long this will continue? It is dawn that never fades! After millions and millions of ages, it will be as fresh as it is now. Therefore, weep not for me!”

Transcript

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Welcome

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Hello, welcome to Polity Matters. My name is Ben Ratliff, and I'm joined by Jared Nelson and Scott Edberg. Uh what's going on, guys? Long time no see. Glad to have y'all back in the studio, as it were, uh recording. Everybody okay?

SPEAKER_00 0:18

I'm just looking forward to the next GA. You know, I'm just wondering what what number of uh overtures we're gonna get this year.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

That's true. I guess we are before GA as we record, but it might be after GA as we release this episode. Uh we've got a lot of things coming, but yeah, we can. Oh man, already there's another one. Why are there two Scots?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

My riverside, my riverside crashed, right when you started saying long time and OC it just crashed.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

There are uh there are two Scots on the screen now. I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

And are they both moving?

SPEAKER_03 0:47

We're gonna cru no, only one of them is moving. We're gonna cruise there now. There's one. Boy. Well, we just recorded our worst nightmare live on air. Two Scottedbergs in the same room.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Can't handle one of us, let over two.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Man, I have to Well, here we are. We're in uh BCO 61 and uh the burial of the dead. If you're if you're keeping up, so we just did visitation of the sick last time, and now we uh appropriately move on to funerals. We we've mentioned it. Let's it's worth saying again in a whole separate episode now, right? That these latter chapters of the directory don't deal with elements of worship properly the way all the former ones do, but we're dealing with matters of pastoral care and uh congregational life and uh and family life as well, once we get a little further along into um uh 63. So that's where we are, 61. I'm gonna read the first section and then we'll uh see what the guys want to do with

BCO 61-1

SPEAKER_03 1:37

it. Chapter 61, the burial of the dead, 61-1. The services proper for such an occasion are the singing of appropriate psalms or hymns, the reading of some suitable portion or portions of scripture with such remarks as it may seem proper to the minister to make, prayer, in which the bereaved shall be especially remembered and God's grace sought on their behalf, that they may be sustained and comforted in their sorrow, and that their afflictions may be blessed to their spiritual good. So it feels a little bit to me like this sort of drops into the middle of the conversation almost. Like there's an assumption going into this that you should have a service for the burial of the dead, uh, and then it gives you things that are appropriate for such a service. Any thoughts, guys? We can talk about maybe our practical experience and stuff in a minute, but just talking about the section itself. What stands out?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

It's not something I've done a lot of research on, but uh the 1645 has very little for you to do. Um it was mostly about not making a big ceremony like at the graveside. So, like the original uh 1645 says, When any per person departeth this life, let the uh dead body upon the day of burial be decently attended from the house to the place appointed for public burial, and they're immediately interned without any ceremony. So I guess we uh we kind of change a little bit in what we want to do around that.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Well, there are like multiple services in view, right? There is the graveside service, which is basically what Jared said almost. We're very short and to the point. And then often we have a larger funeral or memorial service that is maybe an hour or half an hour to an hour. And so it kind of depends the service and the scope of what you'd be doing between those services. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

And we should refer folks to the appendices C, D, and E in our uh Book of Church Order deal with the funeral service and a child's funeral and a graveside service.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

The uh I think there have just been so many abuses of praying for the dead and having superstitions or talking to the dead. When we talked to the guy from the ARP, that's what they said was they wanted some sort of uh instruction that they're not to talk to the dead as if they were still alive. Like that was some sort of a ceremony that was popular in Canada or something. So I mean there's maybe a swinging of a pendulum away that we're now kind of like, okay, you you do need to do some things, but just make sure that you're not praying for the dead or or having some strange ceremonies surrounding it.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah. Say what let me not

BCO 61-2

SPEAKER_03 4:02

not to hurry us along, let me read the second section just so we have the whole chapter kind of in front of us, and then I want to talk through uh what what we have found helpful, how we were trained, what things we might advise guys in terms of funerals and these matters. So 61.2, the funeral services are to be left largely to the discretion of the minister performing them, but he should always remember that the proper object of the service is the worship of God and the consolation of the living. Uh so it's it's well said uh that that funerals are not for the dead, but are for those left alive, and uh we we should bear that in mind in our conducting of these matters. I mean, Scott, you are trained by like the pastor of pastors, right? By Charlie Wingard. Uh and so I'm sure you've got lots of good practical one-liners for this kind of stuff. But how how did he help you start thinking about funerals and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, we we didn't actually I I participated in every funeral in Yazoo City that he participated in. He always would give me different parts of the worship service and we would tag team every funeral, and he would help me plan them. I think one of the important things, I come from a secular background where funerals are mirror memorials of human beings, which include whatever they liked or enjoyed. And as we've read already in the BCO that they are worship services, and so there is appropriate and inappropriate, though these aren't times of dogmatic exchange. You probably want to stay away from certain common things that you see in the world. I I kind of don't appreciate or enjoy eulogies because they can distract from the worship service. And so he's taught me things of how do you like protect the worship service by including those sorts of things outside of the worship service. And so if you want to play your Led Zeppelin or anything like that, uh you could do that before the worship service and after or whatever, but not during. And same thing with like eulogies or memories, taking time, putting that outside the service because those can distract from what you're actually there to do. There's often good stories, but you often don't know where people are going with those stories, and they could be towards any sort of end. And so those are some quick things he taught me. But one of the best things I think for if you ever have an intern is to involve them in every aspect of the ministry, and that includes funerals. You know, being at the bedside when they're dying, and then having your interns read scripture, pray, and even conduct a homily, but like cutting it up so that your intern has sees what it's going through. It was so helpful that by the end of it, Charlie was out of the country. I think in Brazil, I'm doing seminary teaching and someone died. He sent a simple email, Scott, take care of it. And I was able to take care of it because he involved me. And so I think involvement's probably the most important, is I would not have known what to do if it was my first thing, my first rodeo without any exposure.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, I I think there's uh this is something worth reflection of weddings and funerals. Are they proper worship services? And so this says at the end that there's an object of worship, but for me it's almost like the visitation of the sick, that it's not a formal worship service. So um I'm probably at a different part of the uh discretion of the minister performing them that I don't consider them to be as regulated like by the uh regulative principle of worship, partly because I'm I don't want to serve the Lord's Supper at a wedding or a funeral. And I think that if they're a proper worship service, you could. Um but instead I think there are worship elements. Yeah, but I think there are worship elements that are there. So this is just how I think through it, and how if somebody asks me, hey, can we have the Lord's Supper at the funeral, I say, it's not a proper worship service. No, we do have worship elements to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

So it's just how I conceptualized Led Zeppelin. If you want Led Zeppelin at your funeral, call Jared. No, if you want hymns and spiritual songs, you can call, you can call me. I'll I'll take those up for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I do encourage singing and things like that, but I mean this would regulate would you have a eulogy and somebody else speaking that's not ordained. And so, like in our in our area of the country, it's common to do things like remembrances and eulogies. And uh, you know, would somebody come up and read a poem or read, you know, Psalm 23 or something like that. So I think that's something you have to work through because if they're properly regulated by uh scripture as part of the regular principle, you're gonna have to warn people. So if you fall on that side, you're gonna have to warn people, hey, uh I'm I'm gonna be doing the scripture readings. Um, or you have to decide these things before they ask, is what I'm saying. Like you need to figure out what your philosophy is for what you allow and not allow, what's part of wisdom, what part of uh is not part of wisdom. So mine probably look a little bit different that I have an invitation, a greeting invitation. Um, I have uh prayers and singing, we'll we'll do some reading of scripture. Um I I'll have a message, but then also we'll have people share remembrances and things like that during the services. So yeah, probably looks a little bit different, and the BCO leaves a lot of it up to the discretion of the minister.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Uh I have I'll have one major thought, but I was just gonna connect to something Scott said. It's interesting to me that uh one of the few things that an intern of the PCA is permitted to do, he's not permitted to preach regularly necessarily, right, unless he's licensed or even uh right sacraments, but he does have the right to conduct funerals, which you would assume with that statement that he could be the only officiant in a funeral, so to speak, and it would be acceptable uh in our politicians. Um there seems to be some kind of emphasis there, even. Uh it's an interesting allowance, I think. So yeah, get your interns and your your candidates involved. Um I think you guys will probably agree. I don't I haven't been to a lot of funerals outside the south, so I don't know, Jared, what it's like up there in the north where you are. By the way, the north for me is Tennessee or further, so it's just you're you're way up there. Funerals have this ironic character to them that they are some of the most significant services you'll ever conduct as a minister, just by virtue of the people that will be present in the congregation. Probably more unbelieving people will show up to funerals than than your regular worship services. But at the same time, funerals also often are the worst services you'll ever see in a congregation. Not necessarily in our circles, but just generally speaking, people go to bad funerals. So you don't want to be the place where it's a bad funeral. So you really need to think through what you're doing in these services. This is why I so appreciate that the BCO talks about it's for it's not it's for the worship of God and for the consolation of the living. That necessarily requires that the gospel be proclaimed, probably in as in more clarity than you've preached on a regular Sunday morning, Sunday evening worship service, because you can pick a text that's straight to the point and and go for it. Actually, I'll try to put in the links. Steven Spinnenweber recently wrote an article about conducting uh his sister's funeral uh not long ago and about about the need to preach the gospel very clearly and explicitly uh at funerals.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

So I think of uh the verse from Ecclesiastes, it's better to go into the house of mourning uh than into the house of mirth. I think of that as the difference between weddings and funerals. Nobody's listening to you at a wedding. Nobody cares what you're gonna say there. So might are short and sweet, and I I do have gospel in there, but it's I don't think anybody's listening to me. At a funeral, everybody is listening. It is a unique opportunity to have people that are thinking about the shortness of life, and I remind them this is a a time to think that. And it was the opportunity that Jesus had some of his deepest teaching about who he was in John 11, of the resurrection and his sympathy with people. I mean, and they were they were open to it. Mary and Martha were open to that at that time, and so were your people. So that that's a good word, Ben.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

What do y'all do for graveside services? It's not explicitly mentioned here, but it's worth talking about.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Terry Johnson has a nice little cutout in his book, Leading and Worship. And I mean, it's basically the words of committal, reading a short verse or two, praying, and you're done. Um it's it it I say it's five minutes long, but that'd be like it's probably like two and a half minutes. It's not long at all. I don't think it's meant to be. You've already spent a lot of time. Typically, you've spent a lot of time in a funeral service already. And so this one is as short as can be. Um, all you gotta be conscientious of where you are. You're not in a building that's regulated. Um, if it's summer, it's really hot outside and everyone's wearing black. If it's winter, it's cold outside, and the ground's like frozen. I mean, it you have to make it short and sweet. Usually there's no parking, and so even getting to the graveside is cumbersome. Um and so yeah, two two minutes, two to five minutes is just just enough.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Some of my favorite graveside material Jared gave me. I don't I don't know if the Matthew Henry quote. Um, I don't know if you want to speak to that at all or or mention it. It's I'm trying to I'm trying to set well, I mean, look, like it's some of the best help I've gotten for a graveside, and so I don't want to take the credit. Uh if Jared Jared wants to share.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Well, I I won't take the credit either because it was Nathan McCall that gave it to me.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

But there's a Nathan Matthew Matthew Henry.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah. Um so uh Matthew Henry was at a time in which he thought he was on his deathbed, and so he wrote something up that was to be read as a note to his friends when he passed. And uh it's it's beautiful if you can find it. And if you if you want a copy of it, I'll email you mine that's a little bit edited. But it's uh, you know, he just talks about um you're probably wondering where I'm at, and he's talking about, you know, I have a company of angels, I have the company of the people who have come before me, uh, but I have the best company of all, uh, which is I am in the presence of my Savior, whom uh all there is to do is to praise and enjoy him. And uh there it never it never gets dull. In fact, it's it's new every morning for ages and ages. And Ian's basically saying, I'm where I want to be. And if you know the the location of the soul of that uh departed saint, that is such a great uh comfort uh for the people that are left behind. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

I I love to read that Matthew Henry uh uh quote for somebody that whom I am sure of their of their The Appendix E and R BCO is also helpful for gravesides, it's about probably about as short as what Scott referenced with Johnson. Um and uh some of those old like Book of Common Prayer, what's the other one that we would uh anyway, some of those older kind of liturgy books have really, really good stuff for funerals and graveside services. So if you can if you can get in you know a copy of that kind of stuff, they could they can be helpful. You need to skim them and make sure they're fully reformed in in the way they present things, but usually give a lot of good attention to these types of matters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

You gotta tweak some of the language. Like if you use the 1979, it it almost sounds like you're praying for them. So you gotta you gotta tweak some whole language there. Yeah, you gotta go older. Yeah. Like 1662, you're probably okay. Not though nothing. The the 1662 has some language like that too. So I just I just use our appendix and and my own. I actually have a little booklet that I made for myself that is committal language, and I I just have it stuck in my Bible, so I can can read the ashes to ashes, dust to dust, prayer guidance for we are no longer in their care, they're no longer in our care, and so we are now in the care of of our heavenly father, and comfort those that are left behind. Maybe read Psalm 23, maybe another psalm, and then benediction, usually Hebrews uh 13, 20 to 21 uh is a good uh benediction there. And then I say something about like, and now um alleviates to your final goodbyes, and so I'm out of there. At least not near the near the cask. I want you to have some time that people are kind of saying their last goodbyes in terms of uh realizing that they're they're leaving the graveside, and it can be emotional, and people are it's kind of an intimate moment there too. So you don't want to just like hover like, hey, what's your reaction going to be? You know, yeah. Um you need to be kind of on the back skirts in the back row.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Some practical things that I've learned over the years, and you guys think about some too. Maybe you can share, but this might be a southern thing. I'm not sure. Scott, you might be able to know the difference. I was always taught as a if you're the minister, you accompany the casket. And most most like funeral homes are gonna the men are gonna be able to tell you what to do and where to go, but it's it's a good principle to stay with the casket. Oftentimes you're gonna be leading the casket. Um you can think about that as your final act of pastoral ministry to that individual. You're you're pastoring them through their funeral. The other thing, too, usually at gravesides, you finish, you're you're gonna process across, usually the family is sitting, and so usually we here in the south, we process across the front of that row and greet every family member that's there, especially the immediate family of the departed. You want to you want to greet them and and uh you know, maybe say a brief blessing or prayer uh with them as you go, because that's kind of the last time you'll probably see them in the official duty at that moment. You know, you sometimes there's food afterwards back at a church or at a home, and you might see people again, but you you want to maintain the appropriate respect and decorum, and so greet them as you go, don't just disappear.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, we're saying something about our eschatology too. This body is important. That's why I like funerals more than memorials. And if there is a memorial that you do and then you go to the graveside, there's something important about that to say, no, this this body was part of this person, and will be they'll rise again with the same sort of body, with the same body. And so we're saying that there's something important here. It it isn't just a shell that they left. This is we're looking forward to resurrection when body and soul will be reunited. So there's important things to say. I love to say those things, especially as people are like, oh, he's an angel now. It's like angels are a different sort of beings, uh, and people are body and soul, and therefore we're gonna have a body.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

If uh Scott, can I pitch it to you? If somebody somebody in your congregation asked you what your opinion of cremation is, and I really am asking, like, it's a member of your congregation, they genuinely want to know. What how do you respond to that pastorally? I think people have their technical answers to cremation, but what do we say to people when they're thinking it through and and wondering about it?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Well, we're advocates for Christian burial, and we obviously encourage that. I think the time to have those discussions is is most importantly before someone dies. Often people will come to their pastors, as you said, asking for counsel. But Christians have always buried themselves in light of the resurrection by burying them in the ground or in a cave, not by burning. We are not pagans. Pagans burned their dead. But Christians do not because they anticipate the future hope of the resurrection and that that body will be restored. That is not to say the Lord cannot resurrect a cremated body. Oh, he shall, and he will be all the glorious for it. Um, but I think the symbolism there is an eager expectation of the hope of what happens after death, even after we are united with Christ, we will return to the estate of flesh in the resurrection of the dead. And so we are holding our eschatological hope forward by not cremating. I know that it is cheaper to cremate, I get that, and that's why we need to, as ministers, encourage people to plan their funerals ahead of time. Because often, if you don't plan ahead of time, the cost is so striking between the two options that cremation becomes the the default. Um that I'll t I will do a funeral for someone who is cremated. It is not time to argue with the family after someone's died. Um, that is not the time for that. The time for that is before. Um, when the person's sick, before they're sick, someone who's an aging saint in their 70s often will come to the office and want their service planned, and this is the time to talk about that. We don't want to bludgeon our people who are mourning by giving them guilt for how they've handled the burial of their loved ones.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

That's right. That's right. That's good. Yeah, you handled that well. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

I'd be on the the same page as that, counseling before. Afterwards, you do get the questions. I do I do like to take people to uh Hebrews 11 where it talks about Abraham. Uh he was going to offer up his son as a burnt offering and consider God was able to raise him even from the dead. God would be able to raise him that way, but everybody since Abraham has buried in expectation for the resurrection of the dead. And uh I think it's just it's unfortunate that we've created this industry that has so many chemicals that you pump into a body to preserve the body just so that you don't have to have the memorial for a day or two, and then that goes into the ground and is polluted. There are some places, it's very few, but getting more popular where you can do a natural burial, which is no chemicals, wicker basket deteriorates. I think that's better. That was what Calvin did, unmarked grave in a in a wooden casket. Most Christians were buried without those chemicals. So I think that's it's made it much more complicated. And I think the the cost factor is a big one for people. So I always counsel against it. What are you saying about the body if you're if you're cremating? But then afterwards it's like, you know what, he he can raise you the same. It's just we need to say some words about the importance of the body, maybe in the service now.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

It's it's horrible in the context of this conversation, but World Magazine has recently been reporting um on a couple that ran a funeral home, a so-called eco-friendly one, and they discovered they had all these bodies that they had just like tossed into a pile somewhere and told everybody that they had buried them and stuff. I mean, yeah, it was like weird. Sorry, that's probably very inner yeah, uh we'll put the explicit marker on this episode. But um sorry. But I mean, but it is like it's crazy. Just like the eco-friendly stuff is probably helpful to the point that you said, but it just made me think like there are wack-a-doodles out there that will do anything. So I'm about to cut that. That had nothing to do at all with our episode. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Talks to the importance of the body, and the secular world doesn't take an importance with the body, and so you need to.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Jared turned it around, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Need to uh recognize that and and what you're doing. So your your secular funeral home may press you on that. I know around here we have a lot of Eastern Orthodox and Catholic uh funeral homes, and so they're a little bit more about uh burying the body, but you know.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Yeah. I think Scott was right. That a lot of the times the cremation issue comes up because for for financial purposes and and savings. That's that's usually the biggest concern. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

If it were the same price, there wouldn't be a debate. No, that's right. It's waiting too long to plan. And because you haven't purchased the plot, you haven't purchased the the box, you haven't done all the prepay stuff, and well now your family's strapped, you don't have a life insurance policy.

unknown 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

And so your family's trying to get the money to the eight to ten thousand or whatever it costs, or they could spend half of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I did a funeral service for somebody who was cremated once because their pastor refused to do one for somebody who was cremated. So don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

I um well, this is another story, but don't worry, there's a lot less dead bodies in it.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

It the I can't wait for that to be the title of this episode.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

A lot less dead bodies in it. We went to a I went to a funeral and um they had cremated the individual, but they they wanted a casket up front at the service, nevertheless, and uh somebody told me that that's now referred to as a used casket, even though it wasn't used for the purpose that it would normally be used for. And so you can get a used casket, so to speak, if you want something in the front of the service to represent the body of the deceased. Yeah. I used casket for myself, I guess. The name of the chapter is The Burial of the Dead. If anybody's listening and thought we weren't going to talk about dead bodies, welcome to the show. Here we are. At this point, everybody's really glad we only have two chapters left in the whole book. They're like, it's about time to be done with this. We are done with this. Anything else? Tried I want us to try to hit a bunch of different stuff. I think we hit everything related to funerals.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Um I've I've encountered more and more. I don't know if you have people who don't want to do a service at all.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And I think the very end of BCO uh 612 is helpful. What's the what's the point of a funeral service? Notice it isn't to honor the wishes of the person who's departed. They're gone. They have no objection, they have no vote in it anymore. All right. There's two things. There's two things, and I think people need to hear this. Two things that you're doing with a funeral service. You are acknowledging worshiping the God who created that person, and number two, you're consoling the living. It has nothing to do with the person that departed. This is my soapbox. Um and so if you said, well, the person didn't want to, it doesn't matter. They don't get a vote anymore. If you it is good to have a service to worship God and to console the living. I've never met somebody who didn't have a service that said, That was a great idea later. Everybody regrets it. Everybody does.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

And from a pastoral standpoint, you should press that with people that are members of your church, especially, right? Like it's a way of pastoring them by having a service like this.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

That gets us. We are we are often called to do services for unbelievers. How do you approach those services differently than you do for your own congregation?

SPEAKER_03 24:21

I mean, we can paint the picture a little bit, right? So my pastor gets this request a lot. Unbeliever dies, they don't have a church home, but their grandfather's been a member of our church or something, and so they approach our pastor about doing his service because they're they want something. They just don't have anybody connected enough that knew him or whatever to do it, and so he'll he will often say yes to those types of things. There's the picture. Jared's gonna answer the question though. Why me? Because Scott asked it and I talked a little bit already. Oh, okay. That's the way this works these days.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Uh I've done a I've done a few funerals for unbelievers. My favorite text is Hebrews 9 27. Uh, just as it has been appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. And just talk I basically paint the picture of uh they're in the casket now, you will be someday. What have you thought about this this moment? Um because obviously the person who uh we're doing the funeral for has not thought about it well and and live their life well in light of it. Uh, but this is your opportunity now. Because it's not about I'm it's not about condemning or judging them in terms of um you know making a final judgment on what happened in their life right before you you knew about them, but it is about the worship of God and the consolation of living, and sometimes to console the living, you have to con you have to confront them with the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Yeah. The the question about doing an unbeliever's funeral can feel very daunting, right? Because it's oh no, uh they didn't know that what am I gonna say? Well, the truth is that you don't have to say very much about that particular aspect of their life. Often it can just be, hey, if so-and-so were here and could tell you anything, they would want to you to hear the gospel, and that's what I'm gonna proclaim to you right now. And you can have the harder conversations with family members off to the side, but in the funeral itself, it really is rather straightforward and and not unclear in the least.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah, do the text of Lazarus and the beggar, that would be or Lazarus and the rich man. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Yeah. Did you have any thoughts on that, Scott? You asked the question.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Uh when I was at Moody, my pastoral theology professor said that you shouldn't bash people over the head with the gospel for funerals in this capacity, that it's not time for that. I d I generally disagree with them. I think that it is time. That's the perfect time. This might be the only time that they get to hear the gospel. And so I I do it for my own family. Some of the the time, the only times I have to preach to them in a serious manner is when one of us die. I often feel guilt for not sharing enough with my family. And so in these circumstances, I don't hold back because that this might be the only opportunity I have. Um, and so they need to hear the gospel. Yeah, I I I don't you don't need to be overly offensive or critical of the person who died. This is the time more than any to share the gr truths of our sin and our need for a savior.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

There's a story here in the Delta that there was once a uh a honky tonk owner who died, and uh he wasn't a believer. The the minister got up and said, Well, I'm not gonna mince words with any of you people. I never frequented Mr. Smith's establishment, and he never frequented mine, and we all know where he is today, and went on to say something else.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

But there is an honest reality there that you don't have to be dishonest in a funeral service. I mean, some people that die are scoundrels, and the family doesn't need you to paint them in a rose-colored image where they are what they weren't. And I think they'd actually appreciate you not to paint over some of their vile sins, because you will bury scoundrels. And if they're alcoholics and beat their children and family, you don't need to paint them as a hero. You don't need to necessarily further tarnish the reputation, but you don't need to create a saint out of a an unbelieving scoundrel either. Well, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Uh speaking of uh joke stories, that there is a story around here that goes around of uh the the guy who was part of the there was these two brothers that were in the mafia, or that uh his brother was in the mafia and his brother died. And uh he told the priest, if you if you don't say something if you don't say that my brother was a saint in the funeral, you're gonna be a problem with the with the mob. So during the funeral, the the joke goes that he said, uh, you know, so and so was a liar, he was a cheat, uh, he was uh he was really just a horrible human being. But compared to his brother, he was a saint.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Rumor has it around here that there was a eulogy given at a funeral for a real scoundrel, but it it did exactly what Scott said not to do, is it painted him into heaven basically, and it got done, and and the widow goes, Who's he talking about? What the fuck are they talking about? That's not new eye. Yeah. Well,

Y’all Take Care

SPEAKER_03 28:56

I think we've squeezed it as much as we can. Got all the juice out of this one. Y'all good? I don't know why he's on my mind. Just came up all of a sudden. Steve Tipton would certainly tell us that this podcast is over. Thanks for joining us. Make sure you're subscribed in your podcast app of choice. There's links down below. I'll at least try to make sure there's one to spin's article about his sister's funeral. Uh it's very uh encouraging and uplifting. And um uh there's there's even a link to go listen to the sermon he preached if you've if you feel like doing that. Uh hopefully we're past GA when this comes out. We hope you guys all enjoyed it. Uh thanks to our supporters. If you want to become one, you can click the link and uh and help us out. Uh the further along we get, the more we wonder what's gonna happen when we get done with the book. And a lot of people have been asking, but there's still an RAO and an SJC manual. I'm not saying we're gonna go through those the way we've gone through these, but they're there, and who knows? We like doing this, but we don't want to be podcasters for the rest of our lives. I think some of you want us to do this until we die and go to our own burial of the dead, but I'm not interested in that. I just want to make a good resource and be helpful to the church. And I think my buddies share that sentiment. So let us know if you have thoughts, if there would be something helpful. That's where all that was leading. If you've got something that would be helpful, tell us because we we would take suggestions and at least entertain different ideas. I think I'm done rambling. Uh, until next time, say goodbye, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Goodbye. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Y'all take care.