Stop Fighting About Sex And Start Enjoying It with Jessa Zimmerman

In this interview with Jessa Zimmerman, we reframe desire discrepancy as normal, not a defect, and show how couples can move from pressure to play with clear tools, language, and empathy. She explains proactive vs reactive desire, why “no” should be celebrated, and how to build a buffet of intimate options.

• normalising libido differences across long-term relationships
• shifting control dynamics away from pressure and blame
• identifying health, stress, and relational obstacles to desire
• understanding proactive and reactive desire patterns
• starting with higher desire partner’s mindset and behaviours
• redefining sex as shared pleasure over goal-driven outcomes
• using the playground metaphor and “maybe” starts
• broadening options between all and nothing
• handling disappointment without punishment or withdrawal
• practicing self-validation to reduce validation seeking
• creating a safe container for exploration and communication
• restoring hope through shared responsibility and small wins

You can go to www.intimacywithease.com for free resources, guides for higher and lower desire partners, and details on courses and therapy availability

Transcript

Framing Desire Discrepancy As Universal

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. I'm your host, Monica Tanner, and I'm excited about our episode today. I have a special guest. She is Jessa Zimmerman, a certified sex therapist and couples counselor. She specializes in helping couples who have a good relationship but who are avoiding sex because it's become stressful, negative, disappointing, or pressured. She is the author of Sex Without Stress, host of the Better Than Sex podcast and creator of the intimacy with ease method, and is regularly featured in popular media. Welcome, Jessa. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I am great. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Oh, it is my pleasure. This is a big topic, especially with my listeners and my clients, because desire discrepancy is just such an issue. And I feel like when couples come to me with a desire discrepancy, the first off, they feel like something is terribly wrong. Right. And secondly, the higher desire partner usually comes in with like, can you just fix my lower desire spouse? Right. Like, like, let's just fix the problem, focus all your attention on them, and we'll just get this worked out, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Right, right. I mean, I think the first thing people have to understand is that desire discrepancy is actually universal. I mean, maybe not in the very beginning of a relationship, but over time, like no two people are gonna want exactly the same amount of sex. So when you really think about it, it's like, of course there are differences in libido, and that doesn't mean something is going horribly wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah. I like to universalize it even a little bit more because I'm like, yes, there is a desire discrepancy in sex, but there's actually desire discrepancy on any topic you bring on almost any topic.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

And so you're gonna have somebody who wants the house cleaner, you're gonna have somebody who wants to spend more money and somebody who wants to spend less, somebody who wants to discipline the kids more and somebody who's less, right? Like literally any topic you're talking about marriage is going to be a desire discrepancy. So let's not get all freaked out about the fact that one of you wants sex a little bit more than the other.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah. And I, you know, I'm glad you're pointing that out because I use those other examples sometimes to illustrate the dynamics. Because it can be really helpful for somebody who's the higher desire person around sex to understand. Wait, but I'm the lower desire around budgeting. And now I know how that feels. Like it can give them some empathy or compassion for the other role when they realize, oh, I'm in that role around some other topic.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Exactly. That's a great way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah. So you you can relate. You can empathize. You can all of a sudden it can it can make sense, like, oh right, I feel pressured around budgeting when I don't want to do it because I, you know, it matters less to me.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Usually it's the lower desire partner who has a little more control in the relationship, right? You kind of go to the lowest common denominator.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah, any lower desire person has the control. And it's and this is the thing, it's not because they want it. You usually they hate it, actually, especially around sex. Because it feels like pressure, but they're the one, you know, if their partner is always a yes, they're the one saying yes or

Power, Control, And The “Lower Desire” Role

SPEAKER_00 3:10

no, or if or when or how, like there's it's their hand on the spigot. And we can't we can't get around the fact that the lower desire person is the one who's got that control, but they're not trying to be controlling, they are not enjoying this control. This feels like pressure to them, but we all need to understand that's how it works.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, and they probably don't love the idea that they need to get fixed.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, no, they sure don't. And you know, and I'm trying to think, is it 90% of the couples in my practice? Probably. Both people think it's the lower desire person who has the problem. You know, because the lower desire person often feels bad about their lack of desire. What happened to it? They feel guilty that their partner's needs are not getting mad, and then they feel all this pressure like they are the problem. Obviously, they don't want sex, so it's their fault and it's on them to fix it. And again, 90% of the time their partner thinks this too. And it's it's not right. It's not that person's fault or problem. What is the first thing? Yeah, it's one of the first things we have to address.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, so I was gonna say, first things first, how do we solve this problem of everybody thinks it's the lower desire partner's fault?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, I mean, I think it there's sort of two prongs to that. First, well, no, there's three. Maybe there's more that'll come to me as we talk. First of all, we have to understand that there's no amount of sexual desire that is like normal or healthy or whatever word. Like we can't compare to anyone else or to our partner or how we used to be. Like nobody's wrong for how much sex they want, how much, you know, how it works for them. So you can't have too little, but you also can't have too much. I mean, it's just like what you want. This is just how it is for you. And often there are obstacles in the way, really legitimate obstacles that are making it hard that makes sense why somebody would struggle to feel desire or to feel pleasure, or it's in the way of their sexual functioning. So there are like real things in the way that we have to unpack and discover. You know, so things just about, you know, health issues, mental health, relationship conflict, you know, like maybe you don't want to have your sex with your partner because you guys are in conflict all the time, right? There's children and there's work stress, and I mean, there's so many things that that makes sense, it could get in the way. So somebody's not broken. They like we have to figure out what are these legitimate obstacles, right? And then there's the whole concept of what I call re proactive desire and reactive desire. Some people might have heard that as spontaneous desire or responsive desire. But like, we don't tend to understand how sexual desire actually works. So when somebody comes in and says they have zero desire for sex, what they generally mean, they don't know they mean this, is they don't have the proactive kind. They don't, it just doesn't come up spontaneously and they're thinking about it and wanting it. But what we have to realize is we can access the other kind if the environment is right, and then they can it then anybody can want at least some sex. And so, you know, it's like moving those obstacles and then tapping into that kind of hidden desire that people can have.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. So let's give people a really actionable step-by-step framework. If you're the lower desire partner, how do you go about figuring out what are the obstacles?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Well, I'd back up a step. I wouldn't put it all on this lower desire person because even that framing somebody might hear is see, it's my job to fix this. So I think the first thing I would say is that a couple should really look at how have they each contributed to building up the pressure? Like, what have their expectations been around this? What milk?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

You're giving assignments to each partner.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Yeah, in a way, I mean they they can sort of do it together too, but each person has sort of their own side of the court, you know. So, like actually, I really like to start with what is the higher desire person doing that's making this whole thing worse, you know? Because the lower desire person is already coming in feeling so bad and like it's on them, and often actually is at this point sort of resistant

Obstacles To Desire And What’s “Normal”

SPEAKER_00 6:55

to looking at this. They could be very, you know, defensive or protected or shut down, you know, it could be so heavy on them that I like to start with a higher desire person who's often coming in kind of motivated, right? Can you fix my partner? It's like, well, let's look at how you've fallen into some of the traps.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Like this is great. This is so great because yes, oftentimes, by the time I see a couple, it's the lower desire partner who feels like they've tried everything, like they're broken and cannot be fixed. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

That's just that's just how I am now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so the first step, and in fact, in my in my course too, like where I start is creating hope, which is which starts with understanding how we got here. Like, what have we been doing? Then of course this makes sense where we got there. Well, what one of the first traps is just thinking your partner's broken. Something's wrong with them. They're missing something they used to have. It's they should go see their doctor or test their hormones or whatever. And even if you don't say this stuff, if you're thinking your partner's broken, they're going to read that. So we have to rebalance that right away. Like, wait, they're up against real stuff, their desire works differently.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Let's not view them, you know, that's a better frame for the higher desire partner to be looking at.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Well, that we have co-created something that's become more stressful, first of all, and that my partner has legitimate obstacles that are making it harder for them. They're not broken, there's stuff that makes sense if we would just understand it, and that their desire probably works differently, and we've never accommodated that. So that's so all of a sudden that resets, you know, like, wait a minute, what's actually happening here?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

So for the higher desire partner, is how am I contributing to perhaps my partner's obstacles or resistance to yes, yes, and then we've got a trap like, and this is so common, so many higher desire partners feel rejected. They take it personally. But what happens if you do that? Well, first of all, you turn into what I call one of the seven dwarves, grumpy, weepy, mopey, needy, whiny, surly, resentful. I get there could be 20 of them, but I love that. If you feel if you take it personally and feel rejected, it sucks, right? That's miserable. And it's likely to show up in how you behave. And so if you get, you know, mopey or grumpy after this, there's a consequence now to your partner's lower desire. And they're getting the message, whether you mean it or not, they should have sex with you so you feel better about yourself, not because, oh, this is some joyous place we go together.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Well, that's a problem in and of itself, because now it's the lower desire partner's job to manage. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Right, right. And it's just building up the sense of, you know, of like obligation around this, it's changing the meaning of sex, and that's really problematic. It's not gonna help a lower desire person actually want it, right? Yeah, and certainly higher desire partners often tend to frame things around their own pain.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

And while their pain is valid, I mean they're suffering and they're missing this thing, and it's

Proactive vs Reactive Desire Explained

SPEAKER_00 9:40

really important if they approach the conversation from that point, it just piles on their partner feeling worse and bad and guilty, which doesn't help them step into doing something differently. I really like to start with the higher desire person's role and understanding, like, wow, I've done check all those boxes and it makes sense. Like, holy cow, I've piled on here. It's not just my partner. Yes. Yeah, and I think that, yeah, and that gives a lower desire person maybe finally a little bit of sense of relief. Relief. Yeah, relief. It's not just me. And it's like, yes, and most of them recognize once I start talking about this, they both start to recognize this has been happening.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah, okay. I love that. And I also love the direction you were going. And I kind of cut you off when you were saying sex is a place that we go together.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah. I mean, to me, sex is first of all, it's not about what we're doing with what body parts or who's doing what. You know, it's not, it's not that simple. It's about sharing pleasure and connection with each other. And it's supposed to be just easy and fun and natural if we can change how we have conceived of it from, you know, most of us approach sex, another trap for people, very goal-oriented. You know, I use a slide in my training about it a football field, and it's like we could go 98 yards down the field, but if we don't cross the goal line, it we it it doesn't count. And it's like that's how a lot of people are approaching sex, as if it's something very particular with a particular outcome. That's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah. So I like, I mean, a lot of times I give couples homework assignments that have a lot to do with just enjoying the experience of being aroused and turned on without having a goal.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, yeah. It's crucial. I mean, I think the metaphor I use is sex is like we're going to the playground. I haven't it's childish, but I haven't come up with an adult version of this. But anyway, the point is the outing. It's not about what we do when we get there. You don't go to the playground and have an agenda. And it's not all about going down the slide. It's like, let's just go and show up and enjoy each other and getting inspired in the moment. And, you know, we could be there for five minutes and come home, or we could spend all afternoon. It does like there's no, there's no way to fail it. So, how can you create experiences that feel like you're just going to the playground? You know, it's it's also what I sort of talk about with like maybe. So many, so many couples approach sex like it is all or nothing and yes or no question. We're doing this or we're not doing this.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

If we start this, we expect to finish this, you know. And especially reactive desire needs a lot of maybe. We don't know yet. Somebody who's not in the mood can't see around the corner to know if they're gonna get in the mood. And so that all or nothing pressure is a huge deterrent. And so people will say no, yeah, unless they're really confident they can do the whole thing, and that cuts off so much opportunity. Well, and so much just interaction that we can enjoy with our personality.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I love that. I love that. I think my husband and I at some point figured out that just feeling aroused together is really fun. And even if we get interrupted, or you know, like, yes, like it can still, but talk for a second because I have I would say I have several men in my practice who feel like, man, if I don't get some sort of a release, I have a hard time sleeping or working or functioning.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Here's the thing you can have an orgasm one way or another. I mean, it's not like you have to just stop cold turkey and that's it. I mean, I so part of what makes going to the playground easier is knowing there's going to be some way for someone to have an orgasm if they really want one. Because it's true, if you get aroused enough, you want a climax. But you can do everything from do that yourself. The other end of the continuum is your partner does something to bring you there. But there's a whole middle ground of like what could we share and do so you can come if you really want to. But it doesn't mean I, you know, it does not mean your partner has to get you off just because you're turned on, but there is some way to have an orgasm.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So in no way are we thinking somebody's gotta, you know, go to bed hungry, sort of well, so let's talk about that for a second, because I would say the majority of my clients come from a very conservative background and do feel like it needs to be partnered.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Like well, um okay, if that's kind of yeah, I mean, if if people I mean, sometimes I I can gently I don't know, that there's such a broad range here. There may be room to gently challenge that assumption. Does it really need I mean, how strongly do they believe that and why?

Starting With The Higher Desire Partner’s Traps

SPEAKER_00 14:05

And are they really attached to this? Has to be a shared thing and it's sinful, for instance, to just masturbate on your own. But even if it needs to be partnered, it doesn't mean it's your partner's job to do the whole thing or they have to have sex with you. It's like, what way is there to share an experience where the person who didn't get turned on can still feel good about it? You know, so sometimes they can do a whole thing to bring their partner to orgasm and be responsible for all of it. Sometimes maybe they can just snuggle up and nibble on an earlobe and you know, caress a thigh or something while the person touches themselves. Like all of this is sex. And all of this could be could really be experienced as a shared, beautiful thing. I mean, it may not be your favorite, you know, your first choice might might be intercourse or something, but it all counts. It's all just about sharing pleasure and connection. So it's about any couple kind of broadening out that buffet of options. It's just gonna be helpful if people have more options than all or nothing.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That is a real deterrent, especially for somebody who's not in the mood. So trying to figure out some other ways that this could go because it takes the pressure off. Because if you don't have that, like you don't want to go to the playground. Because what if my partner gets all turned on and then I'm supposed to have sex with them? Like that's that's gonna just continue to be a barrier.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

I love this. I love the more options, like a buffet of options.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, and they're all count. It all counts. There is no, I mean, again, you could have your favorites, but they all have value, and they're I would say they're all sex.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yes. So let's talk for a second about how what this conversation kind of looks like. Like maybe you have a couple who have been kind of stuck in that all or nothing mentality for a lot of years, and now they're like, all right, maybe I listen to this podcast, or you know, I've been working with a coach, and how do we start talking about let's broaden our buffet of options?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Well, there's, I mean, the the first step is just to understand how much the all or nothing, all or nothing has hurt you and shut off so much opportunity to just be intimate together. Because it's, you know, being aroused together is lovely, but so is being together, but not even getting aroused. Like any physical closeness that we have our with our partner has value. So understanding that and then understanding how reactive desire works. So just I mean, maybe your audience knows this, but pro what I call proactive or spontaneous desire, that's the kind, you know, you're thinking about sex. You're you're interested in this, you're horny, you're in the mood already, whatever. Reactive desire, somebody starting at zero. They are not thinking about sex, could be the last thing on their mind. And in fact, I you probably have heard this too. How many people have told you, verbatim? If it were up to me, I could go the whole rest of my life without sex and be just fine. Yeah, I hear that a lot. All the time, right? So that's the thing. Some people have almost no proactive desire, but you can start at zero with like a cold engine. And if you get what you need, and you may have to figure out what this is, but the connection you need, the time you need, the touch you need, you might get into your body. Your body might wake up, you might end up aroused, and then it's like, oh, now I want to have sex, you know, and that's real desire. Like, this is not something to fix, this is not a problem. This is how it works for a lot of people. So a couple has to understand that what that requires is first of all, starting, you know, being willing to do something that you could react to and creating that space. And it requires some input. Like the person who has the cold engine, the reactive desire, needs to grow some awareness of what would actually feel good to me now. Where would I want to start? What do I want right now? And to be able to communicate that.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

And how do they start to figure that out?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Well, if they don't know, I mean, I I recommend, I mean, I give people this particular exercise, but start to just explore and see what you think. You know, we got a lot of skin, there's a lot of ways to be touched. Like you can just experiment and like connect with what feels good to me, what's pleasing to me. Not with the idea that it has to be arousing, like it doesn't have to be sexually arousing, but like what just feels nice. Sure. Like what could what could feel better? Yeah, exactly. Play with my hair. And now that you're doing that, and that's feeling really good. Could you kind of nibble on my neck? I mean, you just get you learn to tune in to how does this feel to me and what might I like now? And again, maybe some per some percentage of the time, reactive desire will show up between five percent and ninety-five percent of the time. So it's not gonna be a hundred percent, but it's also not gonna be zero. So there's some room to learn what we could respond

Sex As Connection Not A Goal

SPEAKER_00 18:30

to. But the other ingredient is this flexibility because again, a reactive desire person, there's no way to know ahead of time if they're actually gonna get turned on and want sex. So it has to be okay if that doesn't happen. Otherwise, that is gonna, it's gonna shut the whole thing down.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Good sex is about freedom and choice. And I think absolutely I think lower desire partners feel resistant to even that because they're like, no, if I get this started, I'm locked in because now my partner's aroused and it's my obligation.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

It's my right, it's my job, or they're just gonna be disappointed and I don't want to face that. And again, the cut both people need to understand the impact of that old paradigm and why this is such a huge block and be willing to say, no, it's okay. We'll find other we'll broaden the menu. There's some other options here, I'll be fine, I'll just take a cold shower, whatever it is, but like with the pressure has to come off of this, or it can't, I really think it can't change.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

So let's talk about this for a little bit because I think it's so important that the higher desire partner, if at any point the lower desire partner shuts it off and is like, I'm done, I'm too tired, let's I'm not feeling it. Right, right. The higher desire partner will inevitably be disappointed. And how do we make that okay? What do we do with that disappointment?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, I know people it often respond to like disappointment is some huge, horrible thing to feel, but it's just it's just an emotion we have. Like, I wanted ice cream and I didn't get ice cream. I'm disappointed, you know. But do I need to inflict that on my partner? Do I need to become one of the seven dwarves, you know, and get all grumpy or withdrawn tomorrow? Like, no, I can just tolerate that. But uh to go further, I but then you've got the lower desire.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Okay, so the higher desire partner is disappointed, and maybe they are tolerating it okay, or they're getting better at it, but now you've got a lower desire partner who feels guilty, like my partner's disappointed in its default.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Here's where I was gonna go. To go further, that one of the things I coach my students and clients to do is I and I really mean this literally, you should celebrate when someone says no. You really should, because they are taking care of themselves. Yeah. So, first of all, you don't have to. You don't have to be like, oh, I'm supposed to read the room and know if it's okay and it's all on me to figure this out. Well, that's impossible. It's on them. But you don't want them doing something that would be bad for them. Like I, you know, I talked to so many couples where a lower desire person has kind of been going along, doing it for their partner for years, taking one for the team, sometimes for years. And that's really unfulfilling to the higher desire person. They are not looking to just get off. They want their partner to want to be intimate with them. And sometimes they find out later their partner didn't want to do this and they feel awful, almost creepy. I mean, it's it's not good for either person for the lower desire person to do this out of obligation. So if they are saying no and taking care of themselves, you really should thank them. Thank you for taking care of yourselves and not putting putting care of yourself and putting us in a position to do something that would have been bad for you. And that would be awful for me too. Like that really reframes it. Like, yes, I might be disappointed, but this is so much more important.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's so important. Yes, I have not emphasized that enough, probably. That's a really good thing. I do that in my in my coaching sessions. Like if somebody doesn't want to share, I thank them for taking care of themselves in that.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So And I think when people really can connect, I mean, I it's again, it's not something you just sort of hollow hollowly say. Somebody has to understand that wait, if let's say it's a woman and my wife goes along and just submits to this somehow, that feels icky. I don't want that. So if I don't want that, I've got to rely on her to say no. You know, it's like really to reframe that and get that it's something to celebrate.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah. And I keep I know I I work with couples that where the higher desire partner is like kind of lost hope in this. He's just like, I it's never gonna h it's never gonna work for me, right? And I'm like, you've gotta give up the bad sex in order to get to the good sex.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah. And it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yes. Well, and again, most in my experience, a lot of those people have felt victimized by this and haven't understood their own role. And so I really want to emphasize that not because I'm trying to make them feel bad, but it actually gives them hope and a and a place of power to change how they're showing up and make a difference. Because most of them have felt like it's totally out of my control. It's like actually, there's some stuff you've been doing that you can control, and that's

The Playground Metaphor And “Maybe”

SPEAKER_00 22:45

actually good news. And to understand, like, oh my gosh, I hadn't realized how much pressure I was adding just from feeling so rejected. It's like, oh, they're not just bro, I don't know, it changes the whole victim dynamic that can happen and make somebody feel really hopeless.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

So is that something you generally work on with the higher desire partner? Because I find a lot of my higher desire partners, they've felt kind of overlooked or rejected their whole life. Like it, it's it's kind of like an inner child type thing. So it's much deeper than just I'm being rejected by my partner. It's like I'm I've always been picked last.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, I mean, it's it's an interesting question because it often for people it's validation, right? Or they validate yeah, and that's that's sort of yeah, right. And that's that's too much to put on your partner to put on sex. And if they can understand how that's tainting the whole thing, to again, now your partner's supposed to be taking care of your self sense of self-worth, not just like have this joyous playground to go to together. That can be pretty motivating for people to address that, but it's not as easy as like, oh, now I realize I've been looking for validation. I'll stop that. I mean, you know, sometimes it's gonna take more therapy or work or really wrestling with that to detangle it fully, you know. But I really I feel like all of us as children, I don't know, I was training with this guy and he talked about how we all are other validated when we're children. Our only sense of ourselves is from our caregivers and our loved one. And it's sort of a life's work to move into self-validation, you know, where I can be myself and tolerate somebody not being happy about that, you know? And so it's a it's a human journey to get better and better at that. Yes, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah. Something that we could all use more of is just yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

And we're never really done. And it's not, you know, it's not our failing that we're up against this, but we should understand the impact of it and at least seek to be changing it because it's too much pressure to put on your partner to like fill that bucket when there's a hole at the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yes. So, but let's talk about that for a second. Cause for me, like uh I'm a words of affirmation girl, and I married somebody who is not fluent in that language at all. And so I had to learn to give that to myself and what that looks like and sounds like, and I share this all the time is that the I spend so much time alone during the day, right? Like my husband goes to work, my kids go to school, and now I'm at home alone doing laundry and meal prep and podcasting and working with clients and all of these things. And nobody's like following me around going, you did such a good job on that. Great, you crushed that interview. Like, you know, so at the end of the day, I give myself the information I want. You know, I'm like, good job, Monica. Like you did so much for other people that they will probably never recognize. And like, good job. Like, I'm proud of you. Like, you did a good job today, right? But what does that sound like when you're feeling rejected around sex? Like, what is that valid self-validation? Like, you're really hot, like she has no idea.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Well, I mean, it could be it could be that that could lean into problematic area, perhaps. But I think it's like, wait, my partner's desire is a is about how their body works. There's nothing personal about this, it's not a statement of my desirability. This is just how their body works. I mean, I think that's the biggest one. It's just they probably have reactive desire. That's not because I'm not attractive or they don't love me. It's just that's the way it works, right? Or they really are a person where stress throws on the brakes instead of makes sex more appealing to them. They're up, they've got a lot of like, again, these legitimate obstacles. They've got they're on medication, they're in menopause, whatever it is, like all this stuff makes sense. It doesn't have to be about me personally.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Okay, so that's I like that conversation you're having with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

This is not about me. This is absolutely not their deficiencies, but right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

But like real stuff going on or the way they work, and we have to approach this differently that accommodates both of us, you know. Yeah, okay. And I I just wanted to point out like it's totally fine to want words of affirmation. The problem becomes if you need it, right? If your whole sense of self-worth is dependent on how other people are responding to you, like it feels really nice to be appreciated, right? Or whatever, desired. But if we need that and that that's in someone else's control, that's where it gets to be problematic.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah. So the way I think this relates to sex is because I had to learn that instead of functioning for the benefit of other people, which I'm doing things for other people, but like I almost in my head, it was like it doesn't count unless they see what I'm doing for them or recognize or appreciate it, right? But instead, it's like, no, I actually am walking around in my own integrity doing things for other people that I feel good about, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

So Yeah, and feeling so good to know you're yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

I'm not it's keeping me from overfunctioning, like you know, I'm not doing things for other people solely so they see and appreciate what I'm doing. It's

Release, Orgasm Options, And Values

SPEAKER_01 27:30

like right, no, I'm what can I contribute to this family, to my children, to whatever that I can feel good about, yeah, and show love to these people, right? Yeah, exactly. You do it because you guys it or not.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, you do it because it feels good to you. And then if you do get appreciation, how lovely, that feels really nice, and that's fine, right? But it doesn't require, like, wait, I I'm not a good person unless everybody else is reflecting back to me that I'm a good person. I'm not attractive or interesting unless I'm getting that from my partner. It's just too much responsibility to put on other people. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

So how this relates to the higher desire partner is because a lot of my higher desire partners are like, I feel like this is a good thing, like this is how I show love. And, you know, I love my partner so much, I want to be with them. And so it's really hard now to feel rejected or not that to not have that be reciprocated. Like, how can something so good? And I feel I'm speaking for a higher desire partner, like I feel like this is divinely gifted to us to be able to appreciate this thing in our marriage, and I'm not getting it. Like, how do I well it's a classic sense?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah, it's a classic inversion where they're trying to do the thing that means the most to them, but it doesn't mean that to their partner. So I like it. One example, I I mean, one of the things I'll talk about in my touching exercise, for instance, is one person, the thing of highest value to them that would be most pleasing in this moment is for you to brush my hair. And for my partner, maybe he wants oral sex. It's like, how lovely that we are each able to be involved in each other's highest pleasure. I mean, unless we have to say no, right? Like there's nothing inherently more beneficial about sexual touch than having your hair brushed. Like if you really are committed to pleasing your partner, you would do the thing and honor the thing that they most want, even if it's not what you wish they wanted. You know, so this gets a little messy for people.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

What if their lower desire partner is locked in? I do not desire sex. And so if you love me, you would just allow me that.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Well, I think there's how do I put this? I think that stance is often coming from a protective place where they haven't understood all the stuff we've been talking about today. And they feel like this is just the way they am, and I wish you would just leave me alone. You know, because they haven't understood how they've both contributed to something that's made this more pressured, that's made it more all or nothing. It hasn't accommodated how their desire could actually work. Like there would be a lot to exhaust before I would conclude, for instance, that someone is just purely asexual. Because somebody who who has purely reactive desire feels zero desire for sex unless they get going, can look a lot like somebody who would be asexual. Like it's really hard to tell apart until you've exhausted all this.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Well, also if they're very protective because it's something that has felt so obligative.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

And pressured, right? So they're very protective. And so they're very much. I mean, I'm speaking for I feel like for a lot of my lower desire clients who are like, I have to fend this off because if we even get started even slightly, then it becomes my responsibility to finish it off.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Right, right. And that's that's what we I think we have to reverse, and people have to understand wait. It's been co-created all this pressure and this paradigm around this, and the lower the higher desire partner can start changing a lot right away. And then that creates a safety for the lower desire par person to start to talk about what's been in their way. How can we start to address this? And what's the safe container to explore what might be arousing or pleasing to them without the pressure that has to go to sex? Like that is just such a deal killer, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

And how do we avoid kind of the all or nothing thinking, even on the side of the higher desire partner who's like, gosh, maybe it's all me. I've created so much stress and pressure, and now I just have to not want it. And now they're like going so far the other way. Which is a bit helpful, but not too much.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Right, right. No, I mean, yeah, anybody just like I'm it's all on me is missing that this has been co-created. So at that point, it's like, wait, we have to realize that your lower desire person, first of all, hasn't understood this or hasn't brought these obstacles forth, or hasn't taken an active role in trying to make this better, which I do think eventually they have to step into. Right. Yeah, exactly. They haven't known how. So I mean, everybody's everybody's tot, you know, really stuck because they haven't understood this stuff and they haven't known what to do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Oh, this is so it's like it's so hopeful. I want to leave the listeners with like some hope. Like, what can you say to the couple who they love each other so much, they've created this beautiful life together, but sex is just a sticking point. And yeah, what what can you offer them to well?

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Here's the thing, and I really believe this. And I it the way I talk about my own work, right, is I help otherwise happy couples bridge these libido differences so it can be fun and easy for both people. And I truly

Broadening The Buffet And Communication

SPEAKER_00 32:20

believe that every single one of you, if you're in an otherwise happy relationship, is there if there is friendship and love and goodwill, it doesn't mean it's perfect, doesn't mean you never fight, right? But if you've got those foundations, there is absolutely a way to create a physical relationship that's fun and easy. Now, it may look different than what you expected or what you wished. I mean, it can take shifting our expectations and understanding of this stuff, but there is some way to make this playful. I just see it over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Me too. Oh, I love that. That was a beautiful message, Jessa. Thank you so, so, so much. And thank you for your time today. Please tell them where they can get more information about the wonderful stuff.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

But if you go to intimacywithease.com, it's where you can find all my free resources about desire discrepancy. And I've got stuff just for higher desire partners and just for lower. My information about my online courses there, therapy if you're in one of the states where I'm licensed, everything is on that site.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Excellent. Thank you so, so much. And we'll have that in the show notes. And wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

You are welcome.