Stop Launching Pilots And Start Working Together

If you have ever watched a great community programme succeed and then vanish when the funding runs out, this conversation names the uncomfortable why and the hopeful how. We sit down with Jodeme Goldhar to explore integrated care, population health, social care, and what it really takes to connect health and social services so communities are not left to stitch the system together on their own.

We start with Jodeme's origin story and a clear-eyed view of Canada's fragmented health and social care landscape. From there, we unpack what integrated care looks like when it is designed through the lens of the person and their family: shared goals, one team across organisations, and support that follows real life rather than institutional boundaries. We also draw a hard line between improving a clinical pathway and achieving population health outcomes, then ask what changes when community-defined well-being goals become the centre of planning.

The most disruptive insight is not a new model. It is governance and leadership. Strategic plans, board fiduciary duties, and CEO performance measures can unintentionally lock silos in place, even when everyone wants collaboration. We talk about the danger of "side of desk" integration, why pilots often collapse, and two practical steps leaders can take tomorrow: build collaborative leadership across the ecosystem and align multiple organisations around at least one shared strategic priority tied to community outcomes. We also honour Indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing as essential guidance for holistic well-being and belonging.

If you care about integrated care, community-centred services, cross-sector collaboration, and real accountability for health and well-being, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review, then tell us what you want to see connected next.

Here's more about Jodeme's important work and upcoming conference highlights from Jodeme:

🎙️ Episode Footnotes: Jodeme Goldhar & The Power of Integrated Care

Jodeme Goldhar (MSW, MHSc) is a globally recognized leader, systems-level transformation expert, and leadership coach with over 25 years of experience in health and social care. Her work focuses on bridging gaps among health services, social sectors, and community networks to advance population health, well-being, and a true social movement for systemic change.

Key Professional Roles & Affiliations

• Founder & Managing Director: The Centre for Systems Collaboration (a division of 4C IMPACT Ltd.), dedicated to driving co-designed, large-scale systems coaching and collaborative change.
• International Foundation for Integrated Care (IFIC): Vice-Chair on the global Board of IFIC and Co-Founder/Co-Director of IFIC Canada.
• The North American Centre for Integrated Care (NACIC): Co-Founder and Co-Director of NACIC, based at the University of Toronto's Dalla Lana School of Public Health.
• Network for Integrated Care Excellence (NICE): Co-Lead and Knowledge Brokering and Mobilization Lead for this CIHR-funded initiative.
• Academic Appointments: Adjunct Faculty member at the University of Toronto (IHPME) and Part-Time Faculty at McMaster University.

Movement for Collective Leadership

• National Health Fellows Program: As part of her work with the McMaster Health Leadership Academy, Jodeme helps anchor this signature national program. It brings together leaders from coast to coast—across public, private, health, and social care sectors, including those with lived and living experiences—to build collective leadership capabilities across Canada.

Upcoming Events & Movements

• NACIC27 (North American Conference on Integrated Care): Hosted in Toronto, Canada, the upcoming conference centers on the theme "Community as the Catalyst." Serving as a focal point for a broader social movement, this conference strengthens relationships across international borders and drives local system evolution. Learn more and join the movement at NACIC27.

Connect with Jodeme Goldhar

• Website: The Centre for Systems Collaboration
• X (Twitter): @JodemeGoldhar
• LinkedIn: /Jodeme-Goldhar
• Email: jodeme@me.com

Featured Resources & Reading

• Framework for Sensemaking: Goldhar, J. et al. "A Framework for Sensemaking and Advancing the Continuum of Integrated Care: From Condition-Based Pathways to Population Health." Healthcare Quarterly.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Integration Matters

Speaker 0:18

Welcome everybody. And after having a wonderful conversation with our friends from Ireland about credit unions, today we're joined by Jodeme Goldhar, a dear friend of mine. And Sash and I are really looking forward to having a chat with her about the importance of integration across our services that places communities at the center. Jodine, great to have you with us. Welcome.

Speaker 1 0:42

Thank you. It's honor to be here.

Speaker 0:45

Yeah, it really is a buzz. And there is no better place to start than just to ask you to maybe tell us a little bit about your own journey and a little bit about what is alive for you right now.

Jodeme’s Origin Story In Care

Speaker 1 0:58

Thank you, Cormac. Thank you, Sasha. My journey started at a very young age when I was in my early teens. I was very close to my great-grandmother and often drawn to understanding how I could support her in her health journey. That led me to start to volunteer in a multi-level health system, supporting older adults and their family families. And I was always struck with the conversations I was having with older adults and their families around how difficult the circumstances were for them in trying to navigate our health and social care system. And I'm the kind of person who naturally holds the emotional load that I hear. And I also hold what is unsaid but definitely felt. That led me to pursue a career or degrees in social work. And I thought I was going to be a clinician. I have two social work degrees. Um, always working with older adults and their families. I thought for sure I would have a clinical practice and I would be interested in finding out and supporting what was most important to older adults and their families my whole career. But I never practiced. And I never practiced because when I got quiet within myself, I knew there was a untethered force around what people's lived and living experiences were, that despite the good people working in health and social care, we were failing people in their families. And how might that force around us be better understood, be better connected, and in fact understand what's important to people and their families? And so that led me unconsciously at first, and then very consciously on a journey to work around some of our biggest systemic issues. And what's interesting around that is I didn't even understand how profound that journey would be until I went back to school again. I looked at have an MBA in health care. I did a number of kind of honing around my education with executive programs, et cetera. And all of it was never sufficient and didn't serve me well in what I was seeing and hearing, which is that our health and social care organizations and sectors are so separate from one another that it is absolutely impossible for an individual, an organization, or a sector, no matter the industry, no matter the part of health and care, no matter whether public or private, could meet the needs of people in communities and enable health and well-being. And I in 2006 or 2007 said, I'm going to ask that question: where are the opportunities to connect up organizations, sectors, industries to work together to enable health and well-being? And I set out to meet with 25 people in Canada, none of whom I knew. Cold called them all ministers of health, deputy ministers, deans of schools, heads of CEOs of different parts of health and social care, heads of research. And every single person I met with said there are no roles, but we need them.

Abundance Exists Even In Scarcity

Speaker 1 6:20

And so my journey and what's alive for me are very tied, our untapped potential for impact.

Speaker 6:27

I love the way, I love the way you bring us right back to your own um origin story, your own uh family story. And so some, I think so much of the professional work that we encounter in this podcast, you know, it's autobiographical, isn't it? There's that sense of it's tied to who we are as people and not just uh what we are by specialism or by by credential. We first met uh Jodeme, if I if I'm remembering correctly, in Hamburg in 2015, and I was talking about asset-based community development, and you were talking about integrated care, but it felt like we just had we were saying the same thing, but with different accents, so to speak. And I'd I'd love you to talk, particularly because we know, but particularly for the listeners, so from a third-party perspective, what do you see as the complementarity or the integration between what you're trying to achieve and not just trying what you are achieving in very um in very impressive terms, and what I uh am trying to achieve? And I guess also you may know a little bit about Sasha's work, she'll talk to you a little bit more about that later in the interview. But I think Sasha's work sits at the center of what you and I are both trying to do as well in holding um very centrally that that uh indigenous ways of knowing, being and and doing. But I'd love to just hear your thoughts on, you know, I suppose what drew you to uh my work and eventually to our collaboration.

Speaker 1 8:06

It was a profound experience when we were sharing a stage together and had this incredible kindered understanding of how we have resources and abundance, and yet individuals, organizations, and sectors experience scarcity. And what drew me to wanting to build a lifelong collaboration and friendship with you is that the opportunity for large-scale change does not rest in new resources or layered-on solutions. It rests in the untapped potential of what already exists and in the shift in mindset, behaviors, skills, and capabilities that could enable that.

Integrated Care Through People’s Goals

Speaker 1 9:12

And so, more specifically, in the world of integrated care and population health, and I'm part of also the International Foundation for Integrated Care, I'm lucky enough to serve as the vice chair for the board. And the reason I mention that as part of this discussion, it's in that role and in the role at the North American Center for Integrated Care, which is a hub of the broader one, is that initially the work of integrated care was around integrated models of care, where we could understand what are the needs of a particular group of individuals, older adults, maybe children with medical complexity who may or may not be technology dependent and their parents, people who may be towards end of life and receiving palliative care, people experiencing mental health and addiction circumstances. And the integrated models of care say through the lens of the person and their family, what are their goals and who are they interacting with in the health and social care system that if we understood, perhaps we could knit that team together at the point of care to work together as one team, regardless of what organization or clinical or non-clinical background you come from or sector? And how might we help support an interorganizational team at the point of care to work together to understand what's most important to people and their families? And through that work, I became part of a community that wanted to listen and understand more deeply that it's not just a model of care, although any individual who is participating in an integrated model of care, um, the research is showing improved uh experiences. Uh, people who work as part of integrated care teams experience uh more support as part of a team, more support with their own health and well-being. We have an opportunity to look at value for money, equity, a number of areas. And so, you know, in my own work, the research bared that there was a decrease in mortality and morbidity and increased in experience around their own health and well-being, people's own health and well-being. And yet we were replicating models of care, new models of care everywhere. And what's so ironic about integrated care is integrated care models, we don't always know other integrated care models and who's doing what where. And so started on a journey to actually understand what are all the integrated care models, where are they across my own country in Canada, Sasha, where Sasha and I both live, but internationally. And the reason that's important and relevant to the question of how does this apply to asset-based community development is multifold. First and foremost, this whole notion that we have a number of initiatives or pilot projects or exemplars across the country or countries, and we don't yet have a mechanism or we didn't yet have a mechanism to learn from each other, unlearn from each other, grow and have impact together? It's a very important contribution to be fit for purpose if we want to achieve population health. The second is that all of these models are predicated on the fact that the resources already exist. We're just not working together as a team. And what is it about that mental model that we can apply even more broadly around health and well-being? And we often say that you could have integrated care and never achieve population health, but you cannot achieve population health without integrated care. And just a very brief example, if we're looking at an integrated clinical pathway, perhaps somebody is experiencing congestive heart failure, as an example, or is requiring a hip or knee replacement surgery, the number of individuals across organizations or sectors that need to work together, integrate, is relatively small. It may be home care, primary care, a specialist or a hospital stay. And the opportunity for that team to work together is a relatively short time frame. So you could have many integrated clinical pathways in a neighborhood or in a country, and we will not achieve population health outcomes, although you will achieve better outcomes for that person, better teamwork. If we're looking at a population level, then we are saying, how might the organizations and sectors work together to consider what

From Better Care To Population Health

Speaker 1 14:34

is most important in a community? How does a community define their own health and well-being goals? And how might the resources exist ask themselves, how might we be in service of the goals you are trying to achieve? And when we go to that, then we are fundamentally disrupting the status quo of the ethos of an organization, of individual organizational strategic plans, of individual interests of sectors, and re-relocating the emphasis to what is most important to communities and how might we together um shift the way we work to honor what's most important to people and their families and hence the connection.

Speaker 15:19

Beautiful. So beautifully said. So that that idea, Jodiem, that um we don't we're not trying to find new things that we were missing, and if only we had them, everything would have been fine. But we're trying to take what we already have and connect it in new ways with community at the center. Um you're saying, and I think I couldn't agree more with you, but you're saying that that's profoundly disruptive. Just before I hand over to Sasha, I think it'd be really helpful for people who are maybe listening to this but who don't have a lived experience like we have. Could could you give maybe a couple of examples of how you've seen that disruption play out?

Speaker 1 16:02

Yes.

Speaker 16:02

How does it how does it land in a hospital or you know, uh in in a real experience?

Speaker 1 16:10

I think what's really important for me around this work is that there's a deep provocation underneath it that doesn't does not make a lot of people comfortable, but in my opinion, is one of the most important catalysts for change.

Governance And Strategy Keep Silos Alive

Speaker 1 16:35

And that is that the status quo is no longer sufficient to enable health and well-being. And what I mean by that is that the counterforce to the status quo is the collective, and by the collective, what I mean is that the way our organizations are designed, and the way our leadership curriculum is designed, and I'm speaking in general generalities intentionally, and the way our sector interests are promoted, take us further and further away from population health. And the reason or the example is that if you are in a hospital system or in a home care system, or you work for an organization that provides community supports like support for meals or transportation, each organization has its own strategic plan. The strategic plan is the fiduciary responsibility of the board of directors. The other fiduciary responsibility of the board is the hiring and the performance of the executive, whether it's a CEO or an executive director. And then they have financial and other fiduciary responsibilities. If you are to look in a community like I do across Canada, many most communities have many individual organizations. They each have their own strategy. Each of those strategies has their own set of strategic goals. Each of those is intended to serve the people that receive service from that organization. And the individual goals of an organization enable our status quo, which is a fragmented system not working together across with shared accountability to be in service of population-based outcomes. And so the provocation around that is how might organizations have interorganizational accountabilities to work together to find out what's most important to people and their families and to adjust their strategies and their performance expectations of their CEOs, executive directors, and hence their teams to be working in interorganizational ways around value-based outcomes or shared outcomes that are important to community. So, Cormac, I don't know if that was specific enough, but right now we do not have the governance or leadership mechanisms that enable this, that hardwire it. So many of us around the world are trying to highlight the opportunities to make these fundamental shifts, but not to just talk about it. People like us and many others are trying to help build the skill set, the meaning making, the sense making, the how to do it, and to also create the enabling conditions for it. And my final piece is and this is meant to be a stretch provocation, it's not enough for a single organization to reorient itself in this way. To get at scale, we need multiple organizations in a community who are willing to have look at shared contribution for a kind of outcome that would enable health and well-being.

Speaker 20:57

That's great. And I suppose as I hand over to Sasha then to begin to think a little bit more out loud with you and me about this question of integration, it really feels like the um the challenge that we're we're we're mindful of all of the time, it's very present to us, is that balkanization, that fragmentation, that siloing, um, which again we're not attributing to any individual practitioner because the reality is we've got great practitioners, but they're working within processes and within structures that are almost fragmenting by nature. And um and so I want to hand over to Sasha to come in at this point and and take us where you feel we need to go, Sasha, from your perspective.

Indigenous Community Work Meets Institutions

Speaker 2 21:43

Well, I just I've had um a lot of experience in government and in community. So when Jodeme's talking, it reminds me of different scenarios that I've been involved in and knowing that the government they have accountability. And they have to have policy requirements. That's a real thing. And so, you know, how institutions balance those responsibilities while sharing power with communities is that question. And when you're in that machine, you think if you're the mindset the way that I am and and we are, then you you think creatively around things, accounting. You think creatively around how you're going to implement a program. It's an automatic thing for me. It's not for it's not the machine's not made to care, if you know what I mean. So it's like beating your head off a brick wall. And so I was happily, happily got out of government um uh five years ago, I think, and I started at Mount A. And one of my stipulations in the interview with my university was that I am allowed to work on community and not have all of all of the learning in the institution. Um, because communities learn, thrive, their health, their well-being, everything is holistic. So every service that is coming to indigenous communities needs to be that way because that's how it functions. And it it is easier to do on community, much easier on indigenous communities, mostly where I run my programs for all students in the summer. It's still not that easy, right? Because, for example, I won't name the community, but I'm doing work with their case management program, which are social clients who uh may be struggling for various reasons. I think I talked about this last time. So we ran a at of extended learning, a home residential cleaning program. That's what community wanted. They're outsourcing this to other people, they're paying a lot of money to the outlining community. Let's get the people in our community because we need it. Why do we need it? Your health is dependent on if there's mold growing in your home, if there's a leak, da da da. So the health department, are you interested? Child and family, these children here are unhealthy in this environment. Housing, it's gonna bring your costs down if we maintain. So there's so many reasons to do it, right? And then you have this beautiful model where these case management clients are in there, they're now off social assistance, they're trained, they never miss time. It's a beautiful thing, and then it's boom, program ends, and it's like, okay, here you go. What are you gonna do with that? And I'm like, Well, I thought we wrote a report to all these departments because they were gonna chip in on this salary because they saw the huge benefit in this, uh, you know, and it's sitting there at that standstill, and they were honored at a ceremony, and they were, you know, given uh honorariums and the whole thing. And I'm thinking that is not what this was about, you know. So it there's there's always this challenge, and I know that's what we're trying to draw out and talk more about, but I guess uh what I'm interested in knowing how you think that in those situations, you know, what are the biggest barriers, I guess, to breaking down those silos across health, education, housing, those types of things. That was a long-winded question.

Why Programs End When Funding Ends

Speaker 1 24:59

Sasha, I so appreciate the example you gave because I think this is my point. I'm not always I want to be like super crisp if I can. If we are hiring people to connect up a new create a new program that is not already embedded in the DNA of organizations, then what predominantly happens is the example that you have shared. So some funding is given for coordination and a number of the ministry priorities. Um, but the people who are involved work in organizations that have full mandates, and this would be an additional side of their desk or in parallel. And what we're learning is that when you layer on a solution like hiring or doing something extra, when the funding runs out, then what does it mean? It means it's not hardwired into the mechanisms that are sustained. And so the challenge for us, or the opportunity for us, or how I'm trying to bring some offerings around this, is I'm working with organizations now, and it's this is the provocation, which is why is it we would have to hire in an example like you gave that would be extra and we'd have to look for funding? Why isn't it that the resources that already exist start to be mapped and we understand different ways of working with the resources we have? Now, not every community this is possible, and in an example you gave, it may not be, but I'm working with 75 organizations, anywhere from 50 to 75 organizations at a time. One group who is looking at how to better work together to support people who are experiencing mental health and addiction. And the hardest work we're doing is this is not a project. This is changing the way we operate fundamentally together. You each have, you each are supporting people who are experiencing mental health and addiction for different reasons. And we have people with lived and living experience in the room at the same time who are like, it's ridiculous that you all have separate mandates. We are just a whole person. Um, why aren't you working together? And how we mitigate for it, or at least an offering for how we mitigate, is that we now have to change the way we operate. So in those 40 to 75, whatever the number is, organizations, how might we adopt one strategic direction within our strategic plan that says we are going to work together and have shared accountability? I may not say this perfectly, but for what is most important to our community together around how uh mental wellness can be achieved. And what are the ways in which our resources, our staff could be reallocated to work in a different model. So it's not a layer on, it's not an intervening variable that's going to try and go to heroic efforts to fix something and it may get funded, it may not. It is a fundamental different way to operate with the assets that exist, but would allow us to achieve the goals that are most important to people and their families. And it would require letting go of what experts think is most important for their organizations. Well then, yeah. So what would you say? What do you think about that?

Speaker 2 29:38

Yeah. So if I asked you then, what is one practical step that you could tell an organization to take tomorrow to move toward more community-centered approaches?

Two Practical Steps Leaders Can Take

Speaker 2 29:48

What would you say?

Speaker 1 29:50

I would say, yeah, the one step, one would be to train your staff and yourselves, not as an organization, but pick the, let's say you're supporting people who are experiencing mental health. Every organization that's experiencing this, I would bring them all together and I would talk, I would help them understand what collaborative leadership looks like, help them work through what does this mean if you feel threatened that you may be letting go of some of your long-held beliefs? Because no one of us can address this issue, but together we can. So, how do I create the enabling environment for people to learn together, unlearn together, grow to be able to have impact together? I don't believe that happens within organizations. I believe it happens across organizations and across sectors. But if you want to do it within an organization, you can to ready for that next phase. So one is how do we learn from each other and create an ecosystem that we see ourselves as a community of change makers? And how do you create an ecosystem that learns? So I would, this is this is a bit of a provocation, I wouldn't be supporting individual leadership programs anymore. I would be supporting uh programs that help the ecosystem learn together so that everybody is shifting their mindset, their behavior, their ethos, and they're solving together for what this might look like. That's practical, although big. The second is I would ask CEOs or executive directors and governors to understand that if they're receiving public dollars, but then there's also for private companies around creating shared value, that how uh the opportunity to change their strategic directions, to make a commitment to have a shared strategic priority across organizations, that the governors are held to fiduciary accountability for population health outcomes, not just organizational outcomes, and the CEO recruitment and performance expectations line up to that. So there's two examples. But I'm talking about the more systemic change pieces.

Speaker 2 32:13

It's interesting because I think government thinks that they do that, that they do like when I went to the legislative assembly and had to, you know, be whispering in the minister's ear about why the budget was spent where it was, you know, just the other parties, the green party, the whatever, whatever, just because they got to sit there and question that, which really it's grandstanding, that's supposed to be public accountability, you know, but it isn't, and you know, and and communities aren't involved in these conversations or anywhere the money's being spent. So I guess leading into what you just said, which I agree with, um, what do you think? And this is the last uh question for me, is I guess the how would I um if you could change one assumption that institutions make about communities, what would it be? Does that make sense? Is that coming out right? Like the government, it's not that we we sat there at the Department of Education and thought we knew better than everybody. It was just this structure that was there. And and the assumption is that the people in this building are the experts in education and that we do know better because they don't design curriculum and they don't do this, and yes, they want this, but they don't know this policy interferes with. Do you know what I mean? So the assumption there was that you're not the experts in education, we are, and I guess in health, then I'm wondering what you think the main assumption is. I know how Cormac beautifully talks about you know, a doctor is not responsible for your health. Do you know what I mean? He's responsible for treating uh diagnosis or something like that. But as far as your caring for yourself and your community, that's your responsibility. I know you don't say it like that, Cormac, but anyway, so that's that's my last question. Do you want me to repeat it?

Speaker 1 33:55

No, no, that it's such a good question. We have a continuum where organizations may think that they have the right and the responsibility to be strategic and to use a competitive mindset. Maybe it's market share, maybe it's funding, maybe it's and the biggest, and then on the other end of the continuum would be organizations or sectors who believe they're in service of health and well-being for the people they serve, and uh in collaboration with others, regardless of where you're at along that spectrum, the biggest mindset to challenge is if we look at the health outcomes in our country and at large, we have an individual responsibility to reorient ourselves to community, and that that means our organizations and our sectors as well. I do an exercise when I'm with communities, private and public, uh, different roles across health and social care and people with lived and living experience. And I ask people, how collaborative do you think you are? And most people say very high. Then I say, How collaborative is your organization, and it gets a little less. And then I say, How collaborative is the sector you're a part of, and then it gets a little less. And then I say, How collaborative are your partners, and it gets even less. And what's so interesting is all of the our organization sectors and partners are just made of us. It requires us to hardwire these skill sets and mindsets and behaviors. And I the opportunity is that this is not someone else's responsibility, it is our responsibility, and that's the biggest kind of piece that I think we have an opportunity for a breakthrough on because then everything else follows.

Shared Responsibility And Sacred Teachings

Speaker 36:33

Beautiful. So one of the things that I'm thinking as I listen to both of you speaking is what might we be able to do together that we're struggling to do apart. And I think that's such a lovely uh uh I suppose community question, really, isn't it? Because I think that's where we're seeing the real hope in a lot of the conversations we're having, where particularly people who might have a positional uh power or some kind of a resource base that gives them a sense that they can really make change happen in a special way, can humble themselves to be alongside communities and really recognize that they're creators too, that they're bringing something unique to the conversation that can't be replicated and should never be displaced. Um so we're holding, we're kind of standing on sacred ground, and I think we're holding a lot of promise and trust. Uh but yeah, to that question, uh Jodiam, as we come to the end of the conversation, what is your sense of what we people like myself, yourself, and Sasha might do together that could really open up that promise a little bit more?

Speaker 1 37:45

I think our opportunity one is to sense make the opportunity to help people really understand the opportunity to connect the space in between and uh what it might mean for us to all hold sacred the opportunities for health and well-being. And that we have an opportunity to create the enabling conditions for change. Very often, this kind of change is directed rather than uh creating the space that enables this for people to walk a step or two in each other's footsteps to understand, uh, to learn and unlearn so that we can grow and have impact together, and that the indigenous teachings are at the root of health and well-being, and that the Western approach to health has so much value, but has also created a lot of the fragmentation, and how might we honor the abundance of resources in kind of the Western approach to health and care while we honor the sacred teachings? And how might that be a guide for us hearing from community and then shifting our skills, our capability, our mindsets, and our behaviors to reorient towards health? And I think our collaborations enable that.

Speaker 39:34

Yeah, that sort of brings us full circle around, and I I'd like to close, if it's not an imposition, where we started. You started by invoking your relationship, your one of your primary relationships with your own kin. And I I'm just wondering is there something either that you might like to say in her name? Or I wonder what might she say if she was eavesdropping in on this conversation. Might we give her the last word?

Speaker 1 40:05

So beautiful, Cormac. Her name was Tilly Himmel. She lived, didn't experience directly, but lived during the Holocaust. She carried as I do the trauma of when we don't belong or unseen. And that the work we are talking about together is seeing people, creating belonging and community. And it makes me think now of my three kids, one who is named after her, Calatilly, my daughter. And what I would say is that what comes through me from multiple generations is that the more disparate we are, and the more we dig into uh mind traps and closed perspectives, the more we will be unable to create this sense of thriving communities, and that we have the resources both through our hearts, our minds, and then every single person, heart and mind in organization, sector, private, public organization, to have a shared responsibility for the health and well-being of each other, and that this work is the work for anyone wanting to work in health and care. Um, and I'm honored to be part of it.

Speaker 41:55

Absolutely, as as are we. It's just so powerful, isn't it? That that all our relation, all our relationship invocation. Thank you.

Speaker 1 42:03

I always say connection is the correction.

Speaker 42:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Listener Invitation And Closing Thanks

Speaker 42:08

Yeah, getting in right relationship with each other in our places. And that starts, you know, I know we're we're obviously not in the same room, we're we're on Zoom, but um, and we're trying to connect as well, not just with each other, but with lots and lots of people who are listening. So, you know, we're hugely grateful to our listeners and really keen to hear your thoughts and what what this triggers, what this pops for you. And uh, you know, that's that's really important so we get a better sense of what we need to be leaning into. But Jodeem, it's been an absolute pleasure to uh spend an hour with you. And uh I'm going to close off the session by just handing over and uh inviting Sasha to say thank you, and then perhaps if you have any closing thoughts, Jodim, uh please feel free to pitch them in. Sasha.

Speaker 2 42:59

I just really appreciate you joining us, and uh I always appreciate somebody that can speak from the heart and that really understands the holistic way of people and uh and knowing that that is the way back to good a good life, I guess, as Cormac would say in his book. So thank you very much.

Speaker 43:19

Thanks, Sasha. And Judim, any closing comments or closing reflections?

Speaker 1 43:23

Uh just to thank you both. I'm so honored to have been asked to join. I have so much respect. I've listened to all your work, and I know um me being invited as part of this community is I'm humbled, and it's a general, generous, genuine honor. So thank you.

Speaker 43:42

We see you as a friend and a peer. So it seems like the most natural thing in the world to do. But thank you too. Okay, folks, so that brings us to the end of yet another connected community podcast. The journey continues the search for what it means to place community at the center uh with services in backup and really figuring out how we do that well and get better at being humans together. So thank you for joining us. See you next time.