If You Write It Down, Make It Accurate. I'm Autistic (Episode 140)

Most people talk about autism. Far fewer can tell you what it actually feels like to walk into a workplace while autistic and wonder if the rules are about to change without warning. We sit down with Sam Mitchell, executive director of Autism Rocks And Rolls, for a raw, practical conversation about fear, literal instructions, and why a job that “looks fine on paper” can become overwhelming the moment reality doesn’t match the written expectations. 

Sam breaks down the hidden stressors many employers and co-workers never notice: the anxiety around management, the pressure of workplace social interaction, and the painful pattern of being misunderstood or mistreated. He explains why it’s often not getting hired that’s hardest, it’s keeping the job and surviving the unwritten social code. We also dig into the difference between quantity-driven workplaces and the autistic drive for quality, accuracy, and doing things the right way, even when the culture rewards speed over care. 

We move from challenges to solutions: what kinds of roles can be a better fit, why clear direction and predictable routines matter, how online work can reduce social strain, and what it looks like to “bend” on schedules while still keeping healthy boundaries. Sam also shares how he built real leadership skills running a nonprofit, including the importance of surrounding yourself with a board that covers your weak spots. 

If you’re autistic, love someone who is, or manage people for a living, this conversation will change how you think about hiring, retention, and human potential. Subscribe to Mind Shift Power Podcast, share this episode with a manager or educator, and leave a review telling us: what workplace change would make the biggest difference?

🔗 Connect with Sam Mitchell:

https://info@autismrocksandrolls.com/

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Sam Mitchell

Fatima Bey 0:04

This is Mind Shift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, Fatima Bey The Mind Shifter. And welcome everyone. Today we have with us Sam Mitchell. He is out of the state of Indiana in the USA. He is the executive director of Autism Rocks and Rolls. So people talk about autistic people, and but mostly they don't actually know what it's like for them. Imagine graduating high school and trying to figure out your future and your college and your autistic. So Sam is also autistic, and he's gonna talk today about what that's like so that we can understand and people with who are autistic out there today can listen in and maybe get some guidance to help them navigate this crazy world. How are you doing today, Sam?

Sam Mitchell 1:02

Hey buddy, good to be here. Thank you for having me on again.

Fatima Bey 1:05

And I I'm glad to have you on. So I like to dive

Why Work Feels Scary Inside

Fatima Bey 1:09

right in. Tell us specifically what it what it is like to walk into workplace or professional setting as someone who is autistic, not the diagnosis, not the label. What does it actually feel like from the inside?

Sam Mitchell 1:22

Scary. Scary to walk into the workplace because sometimes you don't know what the job is like. While it's on paper, sometimes what's on paper is inaccurate and false.

Fatima Bey 1:35

Okay. Inaccurate and false, how?

Sam Mitchell 1:38

Inaccurate and false because the facts on the paper aren't straight. And sometimes when bosses see autism on the resume, it's an automatic disqualification. And that's not the way it should be.

Fatima Bey 1:53

It's not the way it should be. So when you say the facts are are different on paper than in in reality, I'm rephrasing what you said. I want to dive a little bit deeper into that because I think I know what you mean. Um and correct me if I'm wrong. So I think what you mean is I know this from dealing with a lot of autistic people over the past couple years, um, that for you, everything on paper needs to match reality. And sometimes yes.

Sam Mitchell 2:22

I mean, if you're gonna go to Walmart and it says on that paper, hey, you're stocking toilet paper, but then you're gonna instead, oh, even though that's on paper, you're not stocking toilet paper, you're stalking eggs. No, I'm doing toilet paper because that's what it said. Those are the instructions.

Fatima Bey 2:41

Right. And this is something, I'm talking to the audience right now. This is something that is very, very, very common um with people in the spectrum uh to take things literally. And um if if a something is on the list, you better make sure it's accurate. Um, I s I can see why that's a problem, but I can also see why uh that can be helpful in the workplace because you get everything to a T. So it's it's scary when you walk in because you're not sure if it if the job is gonna match. What else is scary? Because I know that's not the only thing.

Sam Mitchell 3:16

Management. Because you don't know if the people are gonna like you

Social Rules And Getting Fired

Sam Mitchell 3:20

off the bat, and then there's and then there's and then I would also try to try again, and there's also this workforce social interaction that people abide by when some people with autism are very free-spirited, have a hard time socializing, they don't understand how to socialize in the workplace as well.

Fatima Bey 3:39

Yeah, I know. It's it it's can you explain that to the audience a little bit more of what you mean by not knowing how to socialize?

Sam Mitchell 3:48

Yeah, basically not knowing how to do a conversation the best way possible. And in the workplace, there's some stuff you can't say. Well, I could easily see some on spectrum saying that because they're impulsive and they get fired the next day and they don't understand why.

Fatima Bey 4:05

Do you think by the time someone is going into the workplace as a young adult that they've been they've had some bad workplace experiences already?

Sam Mitchell 4:14

Oh yeah. I'll be the first one to tell you I've already had a bad workplace, and I'm gonna say the company because I don't feel like sued by them, but I left that job and I found another one.

Fatima Bey 4:23

Okay. Um is the is getting fired from jobs common for people in the spectrum?

Sam Mitchell 4:30

Um, sometimes, yeah. The problem is from what I've heard from other people is it's not gaining the job is the problem, it's keeping the job.

Fatima Bey 4:38

Right. Yeah, that's that's pretty much what I mean. Um so is is so fear of fear of what the job is going to be like, if it's gonna match what they say it is. Um just to go a little bit off the center from that, as someone who's not in the spectrum, a lot of other people have that concern too, because sometimes people say one thing and they do another.

Sam Mitchell 5:03

Oh, but if sometimes those on spectrum won't go to that work because they're so afraid of it. I mean, I was afraid of that when I was getting my new job, and I finally do have a job at a part-time shindig at Goodwill, but that's what I was terrified. I mean, I had literally meltdown for three weeks because it was so much stress, and one of those reasons I was stressed was I was afraid that wouldn't be accurate on what I was doing.

Fatima Bey 5:32

So that fear kind of wow, for three weeks. So that fear it just had a major emotional impact on you.

Sam Mitchell 5:39

Oh yeah. I would probably say I hit rock bottom for three weeks. Is that common? It can be. I would say so. You're talking to a guy who's experienced it.

Fatima Bey 5:49

Okay. Well, I I didn't know that. Um, and I'm sure there's other people there's people who probably didn't know that. Um, but I I didn't know that. And this is why we're having this conversation. Uh, the insight is, I think, something that we could all learn from. So uh let me ask you this.

Quality Over Quantity At Work

Fatima Bey 6:04

Um we both we both know, and I think a lot of people know, most workplaces are not built with you in mind. Um, what are the specific things that make navigating work harder for someone on the spectrum that people who are not autistic wouldn't even think about or consider?

Sam Mitchell 6:23

I would say the way they work. I feel like with certain workplaces, there's a way you have to work, and if you're not fit for it, you're cut out. Okay, why are we not adapting to their style?

Fatima Bey 6:36

You mean why, you mean, uh, why is the workplace not adapting to you? Exactly.

Sam Mitchell 6:42

To a point. I mean, I get to a point you can't treat us like kings and queens. I get that. But why aren't you changing up the way we learn? Why do we have to follow that way versus the way we want to? All that should matter is we get the job done efficiently and effectively. And if I had to pick, sometimes they want quantity over quality. It needs to be the other way around. It should be quality over quantity.

Fatima Bey 7:10

And what you just said is something that I've heard a lot, actually, from people in the spectrum who've talked to me about what it's like for them. Um, and that is that that is how your brain is wired. Quality over quantity every time, and it doesn't make sense otherwise. And you're right, at least in the US, uh, a lot of workplaces are the opposite. Quality is not cared for at all. Quantity is the only thing that matters. Uh that's not true in every workplace, but it's true in a lot. So I think that that's let's take a little deeper dive into that. Why is quality more important than quantity to someone like you?

Sam Mitchell 7:55

Quality is more important than quantity because we care more. We care more getting a job right than just throwing it all around. There are some people who have work and will just throw stuff around and then the bosses are like, eh, okay. Why do you want that? Why do you want a C when you can get an A?

Fatima Bey 8:17

Mmm, good, good point. And that is what I've constantly heard too. It the logic uh for anyone in the spectrum that I talk to, they think like you. So I I'm assuming that most do. Um, they think like you, the quality over quantity is a good way to put it. And where things, if things are out of order, they bother you more than they do the rest of us. Uh am I correct in saying it that way? Yeah, you are correct.

Best Jobs For Clear Direction

Fatima Bey 8:48

So, what kind of jobs would be good for someone in the spectrum?

Sam Mitchell 8:54

Concrete direction to the point, sometimes very basic, sometimes very advanced. A lot of online jobs too, because we don't have to socialize. What about jobs that have goodwill? I'm purging and I have to sort the colors, and it's different each week, but all I can do is look at say, hey, okay, you know what, you're gonna purge green and black. Okay, that means I will take the board games off the section and it's green and black. I don't have to do anything else.

Fatima Bey 9:26

So things that are repetitive are good. Yes, essentially, but with absolute clear direction and no opportunity for variations.

Sam Mitchell 9:37

To a point, there can be some, but it's gotta be very limited.

Fatima Bey 9:40

Okay. So when there's too much quote unquote freedom to do what you want, that that is actually a bigger problem than something that is more okay. Uh what what kind of jobs? Okay, so you said that that's the kind of jobs that would be good for you guys. Do you f now let me ask you this when um because this shows for teenagers, so teenagers who are coming out of high school, let's say they're graduating and they're deciding whether or not they're going to college, whether or not they're going to be an entrepreneur, whether or not they're just gonna go to work and never go to college or trade school or they're all the different choices that are out there. How is that different for people like you than the rest of us?

Sam Mitchell 10:27

I would say that it's very different because yes, you have to have a path, but a lot of people with autism too like to go into self-business because they don't like to work for people, because they don't want to deal with that fear of management being garbage to them.

Fatima Bey 10:44

Yeah, I understand that. That makes sense to me actually. Um and correct me if I'm wrong with this statement. Because of what you just said, people who are in the

After High School Paths And College

Fatima Bey 10:56

spectrum are used to being mistreated. Is that correct?

Sam Mitchell 11:01

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't like talking to people at work. It's not because I don't hate the people there, they're just they're nice people. It's just that one, I'm scared because of being mistreated my whole life. And two, I'm so concrete focused on my job that interacting with people is a less of my worries. I care more about doing the job correctly.

Fatima Bey 11:23

Which to me makes you a good hire. If I'm it's depending on what the job is, if I'm a boss, then I want to hire people that are that dedicated to making sure they do it right. And that makes sense to me based on other things that I've seen too. Um, but I I pointed that out because I want the I want the audience to understand that when you say fears, I know you're not just talking about one thing. It's a uh it's an accumulation of things. And when you are used to being mistreated, yes, you're afraid to open your mouth, you're afraid to go there, you're afraid you're gonna be mistreated, you're gonna start to work and get fired in a week. So if all these things are going through your head, that must be kind of that that must be difficult. I mean, going from high school to college or whatever your afterlife is gonna be after that, that's always a challenge for anybody, no matter in the spectrum, out of spectrum, black, white, blue, tall, short, whatever. That's that's just for everybody. But specifically with people in the spectrum, I see what you're saying about some of these, some of these things that can be a barrier. Now, I know that you're not necessarily an extra college expert, but I just want your opinion as someone in the spectrum who works with other people in the spectrum who has a greater understanding than most, I would say. How often do people in the spectrum actually go to college?

Sam Mitchell 12:45

Um that'd be a hard one for me to answer. That's an expert question, but I would say half the population.

Fatima Bey 12:54

Okay, so half of the people who are are in the spectrum. Do you do you feel just from who you the people that you've talked to, not from everybody, but just the people that you've talked to and dealt with, do you feel that many of them didn't go to college because they felt it was hopeless? Or they just or they just didn't want to deal with people? Or a little both?

Sam Mitchell 13:14

That could be the reason. There's a lot of reasons why people didn't want to go to college. Maybe college wasn't the best bet for them. It could have been trade school because that they wanted to do with their life. Maybe it's because that some people with autism have a lower understanding, and if they did something impulsive in college, it'd be an automatic jab through the face.

Fatima Bey 13:37

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this.

Building A Nonprofit With Support

Fatima Bey 13:41

So you've you have yourself built something successful. What did you have to figure out on your own that nobody taught you and nobody warned you about when it comes to operating in the professional world?

Sam Mitchell 13:54

I'm not running a nonprofit. I'll give you that one because I didn't know nothing about nonprofits. Now I definitely have a boat load, I would say. It's not the highest boatload, but a decent size amount of knowledge when it comes to nonprofits.

Fatima Bey 14:11

And how did you learn it?

Sam Mitchell 14:14

Uh, through just watching, learning, uh having a board, being taught information, learning about how nonprofits have a hard time staying the doors because we get taxed with it.

Fatima Bey 14:30

Yeah, not people I don't think people realize that nonprofits are actually one of the hardest things to run. Um they really, really are for a multitude of reasons. But uh well-intended and and you know, good intentions don't necessarily make everything run smooth. Uh, there's a lot of reasons. So, what I'm hearing from what you said is that you learned by a little bit of being self-taught and having a board that helped you learn what you didn't know.

Sam Mitchell 14:59

Yeah, I would say so. And a board who works with stuff that I know I'm not good at. For example, I didn't really do well in math. I was very C B and A with math, but with a lot of help. Won't lie there. But anyway, I would say when it comes to finances, nightmare. So I got a treasure handle on that for me.

Fatima Bey 15:24

I love that you said that because that that that goes way beyond the conversation about autism. If you're running anything and you do and it's a talent you don't have, get someone who has it. Don't try to be everything. You don't need to be everything. Work with the strengths you have.

Sam Mitchell 15:38

I got a problem with that, I'll be honest with you, because in the job for they want to be the boss of their own way and be a manager. It doesn't work like that. You don't walk in and become the manager. You gotta start from bottom to top, buddy. Sometimes you may have to start part-time where we are today.

Fatima Bey 15:55

Yes, and that's a good lesson. That's a good lesson for life in general.

Flexibility Boundaries And Schedules

Fatima Bey 16:00

Uh, let me ask you this: what do you want employers and co-workers and young autistic people who are entering the workforce right now to understand that would actually make a difference for them?

Sam Mitchell 16:12

Okay, here's one that's gonna be hilarious because I hate doing this, but I'm doing you have to bend because a great example with my part-time job, I wanted the morning shift so bad because I'm a person who got up early, who'd rather get the job done quick than go do whatever. Yuliberg gets the storm, as they say. That didn't work out. So I had to do the second thing they offered, which is afternoons and evenings. Do I love it? No, but is it decent? Yes. And I know sometimes those with autism want a certain schedule, they may not get that.

Fatima Bey 16:50

That's very good advice, actually, Sam, because that is something that is very common for artistic people to have this great aversion to change. Like, it's like the devil himself.

Sam Mitchell 17:02

At the same time, I think there's a fair compromise where you say, if you're not gonna get this shift, then you can leave. Like, for example, I think I told my mother, I'll do mornings and afternoons, but I'm not not so sure about evenings. But after a little persuasion, my mom finally convinced me. But I also know myself, well, that could have been the other way. I could have said, I'm not doing evenings. I would have had to find another job, clearly. But that may be the consequence, is if you're gonna set a boundary, I get it, but you may have to face the consequence. But I want to be so nice to get the job, but I do agree with saying some boundaries.

Fatima Bey 17:47

Okay, so be willing to bend. And I I know that's one of the hardest things, but I also know it's possible. Um, it is possible, but they have to be determined that they're willing to be to make that possible. Like you said, you were like, no, no evenings. And then you're like, okay, well, let me be a little bit flexible, and that probably was a lot for you, but you did it. Um, yeah, I had to make a schedule.

Sam Mitchell 18:13

I had like this whole elaborate schedule where if I got evenings, this is what I was doing. Oh, okay.

Fatima Bey 18:21

So it came with a little bit of compromise.

Sam Mitchell 18:23

Yeah, the compromise is I'll do evenings, but we're gonna follow this exact schedule.

Fatima Bey 18:29

What advice

Changing Your Story And Identity

Fatima Bey 18:30

do you have for the youth of the world today?

Sam Mitchell 18:32

Well, have you ever seen the movie Kung Fu Panda 2? Now, there's a reason why I'm asking this. I promise. It will make sense in the end. I have not. Okay. Good. That's good. Now, if you have seen now, if you have seen it, great. You know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, spoiler alert, you might want to turn this off now. But anyway, in the movie, Poe learned where he came from from his after his he learned where he came from, and he learned his parents got killed. And I think someone who was on the bad side turned good, helped Poe out. And she said this and it very resonated me after Poe realized and had his moment of sadness. She stated, and I quote, your story may not have such a happy beginning, but that doesn't define who you are. It's the rest of your story, who you choose to be. Because some people with autism and the youth have had the worst cards dealt to them. But here's my question: Does the apple really have to fall off from the tree? Do you have to be the same person you were that your father was? No. You don't have to be them.

Fatima Bey 19:46

Change the pattern. So we can be who we want to be. We don't have to be our past or our parents' past. Correct. That's excellent. That's excellent. So tell us more about I mentioned that you're the executive director of autism, rock and rolls, but we didn't talk about what

Autism Rocks And Rolls And How To Find It

Fatima Bey 20:05

that is yet. So tell tell the audience what is autism, rocks and rolls, and what do you do?

Sam Mitchell 20:09

So what I do is I run a podcast called Autism, Rocks and Rolls. That's a podcast about autism and how we cope with daily struggles that you may or may not understand through the podcast. It's grown so much. I develop sponsors, a board of six, as we mentioned. I do events at NES is where I'm from. We actually have a poker run coming in a couple months. And then we also do events as well. And then the speaking engagements, I've spoken in Oklahoma, Orlando, and Canada, all over the place, man. And we also have a lot of irons in the fire with a children's book in the works and educational modules. So sounds like you do it a lot.

Fatima Bey 20:44

I think it's really excellent that you have iron speaking all over the place. Say it again. I'm wearing a lot of hats. Sounds like it. And um, and I I I will be honest with you. I love that you're doing all of that for a couple different reasons. Number one, because it helps people. That's always what I'm looking at. The number one reason uh it helps people. But number two, it defies stereotypes. I love that you're defying the stereotype that all you are is a label of autistic, and you're, you know, showing that you're so much more than that. Um, and that you can do whatever you want to do, and you're doing it. And I love that. I think it's great. So, how can people find you?

Sam Mitchell 21:31

Oh, I'm not hard going to find you. Google me on your favorite media platform. Just Google me your search engine optimization. Something will pop up. My official website's Autism, Rocks and Rolls. Do me a favor though, don't search my name. The only reason I say it's because you get a basketball player, and I've done no slam dunks lately. So, best thing to look up is Autism, Rocks and Rolls, and something will pop up on Apple Podcasts and Podme or Spotify.

Fatima Bey 22:00

No, I'm pretty sure that whoever the basketball player is doesn't look like your picture on the front cover.

Sam Mitchell 22:07

He doesn't, trust me. We let's just say we both have different skin tones.

Fatima Bey 22:12

Yes. Well, Sam, it's been really great having you on, and and thank you for helping us to understand and giving us some insight. Um, and I hope that we send some people over to your podcast.

Sam Mitchell 22:24

Oh, please do. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you again. Appreciate it.

Mind Shifting Message For Employers

Fatima Bey 22:29

And now for a mind-shifting moment. I want to take a moment to talk to employers because this conversation was about people who are autistic. But I want you to focus on a piece of the principle behind it that goes beyond autism. And that is do you make room for the humans who can maximize your business or do you try to force the humans you do have to fit into boxes that were never made for them? You see, when we take the time and actually are willing to make adjustments to get the best out of the people that we have as business owners, you maximize everything and including your bottom line because you'll be able to keep people. And having someone who's very finicky about details and loyal and cares about things being right, that sounds like a pretty good employee to me. But do you try to force them into a box that was never made for them? Whether they're in the spectrum or not. So if you own a business or your manager of any kind, I want you to think about that. If you control the systems, the work environment, wherever you are, do you make adjustments to get the best out of what you have or do you force humans to fit into boxes that were never made for them? Just think about it. You've been listening to Mind Shift Power Podcast for complete show notes on this episode. And to join our global movement, find us at FatimaBey.com. Until next time, always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.