The MHW Mark Podcast
Welcome to the MHW podcast, bringing you conversations with experts and leaders in the alcoholic beverage industry. Covering topics ranging from selling alcohol online, creating a new brand from scratch, and what you need to know when you start doing business internationally. Hosted by Jimmy Moreland and a rotating cast of cohosts from the folks at MHW.
The MHW Mark Podcast
M&A in Beverage Alcohol Mini-Series Part 1: Beer
Join us for part one of our three-part journey into the hot topic of M&A - Mergers and Acquisitions. We begin with beer, and we're lucky to have two experts on the topic: Brewers Advisors Founder and President Mike Mitaro and corporate transactional attorney for Kudman Trachten Aloe Posner LLP, Joseph Mannarino.
Special guest cohost Brigid McCabe joins host Jimmy Moreland for a deep dive into M&A, with plenty of great advice for new and established brands.
More info on Brewers Advisors: Website
More on Kudman Trachten Aloe Posner LLP: Website
More info about MHW at https://www.mhwltd.com/
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Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep dives into various aspects of the alcohol industry. My name is Jimmy Moreland. Mhw is a US and EU beverage alcohol importer, distributor and service provider. On today's episode, we are in episode one of a special three-part series where we will be talking mergers and acquisitions, and today, in particular, we're talking about the beer category, and we have two guests who will be taking us into great detail in a great conversation. But broadly speaking, I want to introduce our co-host, who will be guiding us through this journey and hopefully providing us a little bit of context for this deep, weedsy conversation we'll be having. So welcome back to the program, bridget McCabe.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I am very excited for this three-part series. We're going to address M&A within all three verticals that MHW represents beer, spirits and wine and you know the reason why this matters is because so many of our clients have successfully exited over the past 30 years. We get a lot of incoming clients who ask us how did these exits happen? How common are they? How quickly does this happen? How can I prepare, even in my brand's infancy, if this is a desired outcome at the end of the day? So we know that this is a topic that everyone is looking for guidance on, and we're lucky to have two experts with us today who advise both the sellers and the buyers on the process and one just happens to be my husband, so that'll be interesting.
Speaker 1:And how does MHW sort of factor in for a brand who is sort of looking to enter this process?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. So in the big picture, I always say our business model is really built for this. We are the back office platform that frees brand operators the time, energy and finances to focus on their sales and marketing. And, as you'll hear a little bit later in the episode, that's really the impetus for a seller to want to purchase another brand, and so they need the time to really be able to not only start up but then accelerate their brand to outpace the competition.
Speaker 2:And you'll hear Mike talk a little bit about how buyers buy a brand not necessarily a singular product or even a company and that rings very true to what we've experienced with our clients, and although we do get sad to sometimes see a brand leave our portfolio, we're really thrilled for them. We've been with them every step of the journey and it's a win for us as well. And a lot of times I can say that we've actually been invited to stay on after when the purchase happens. We help facilitate the transition and then the buyer will actually see how much we can help with the operational compliance support, so they'll keep us on. So it is something that we've seen every part of the M&A process and we're a great platform for brands to be able to control their destiny.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, our conversation does get very, very deep into the weeds. There's a lot of detail that gets discussed here, so if listeners have any questions or they want to follow up about something, there are links in the show notes that you can follow up either with MHW or, potentially, with one of our guests directly if you've got some follow-up questions. So please do that. Now let's get down to business and introduce our guests. Our first guest is the founder and president of Brewers Advisors. He's founded, operated and sold four beer companies in his career, making him the perfect guest to speak about M&A in the beer category. Welcome to the show. Mike Matero Thanks for having me Also joining us is a corporate transactional attorney for C Cutman Tracton Alloposner LLP, who has represented and advised owners of businesses in the alcoholic, beverage, healthcare, pharmaceutical, real estate and equipment rental industries in transactions with lenders, strategic buyers, private equity groups and public companies with more than $500 million in representative transactions. Welcome to the show, Joseph Manorino.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I'm excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:We're excited to have both of you Now. Longtime listeners to this podcast know that I have an MBA that, shall we say, hasn't gotten a lot of use in the last few years, so I fear that I may know just enough to get myself into trouble. So I will try to take a backseat in this conversation and let the smart people who live and breathe this stuff daily do most of the talking. So please, Bridget, take the floor and save me from myself.
Speaker 2:Oh, jimmy, don't worry, I feel very similarly to you, and you know the joke always goes that you know, two lawyers should never get married. And so Joseph here, who's on the podcast, he chose the complete opposite profession for his wife, and so I'm the marketing director for MHW. But I'm happy to have him, and I'm happy to have Mike on as well. Mike has been a longtime strategic advisor to many MHW clients. He's brought in many to us. We've helped out some of his clients, and so I don't think that there's anyone better here to be able to talk with you about M&A on the beer side. So, to jump right in, I'd love to start with Mike.
Speaker 2:You have a very impressive career. You founded and operated Rheingold Brewing Company, and you also served as president and CEO of Carlsberg USA. Eventually, carlsberg Global went on to be the number four global brewer in the United States, and then you went on to represent Carlsberg and helped to sell it years later. So can you share with the audience? How did that time on the front lines of leadership really equip you to start your advisory company, brewers Advisors?
Speaker 4:Sure, I've been at this a long time and I'm not sure there are too many problems that I haven't seen and the solutions tend to be pretty consistent as well. So I guess, if you've been in this game long enough, worked with enough companies whether they were my own or now, 12 years of consulting with all of my clients, when I work with entrepreneurs, I've walked in their shoes. There's a lot of emotion in this kind of a business the excitement of the startup and everybody's all fired up and full of enthusiasm and tempering expectations, and the pain of growth, which is wonderful but hard, all the struggles, the challenges and all that stuff. I've pretty much walked that path now with a lot of my clients and walked it myself. So all those things that you do in the past bring you to somewhere and I love consulting and helping entrepreneurs best. I can.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about the legal side of things here. And, joe, this is for you. I know that you've worked with Mike quite a bit. Now how do corporate attorneys like yourself typically work with someone who is a strategic advisor and broker like Mike? What's that relationship like?
Speaker 3:So you know, Mike has very important roles in the transaction and I think one of the most important things is figuring out what the strengths and weaknesses of a potential seller are and helping me understand those things.
Speaker 3:And that enables him to find the right kind of buyer for a particular company and understanding what actually is important to the buyers in a transaction and how committed they are to it.
Speaker 3:If, for example, a buyer needs additional capacity and the target doesn't necessarily have that, it's a transaction that may not necessarily work. The other thing that I lean on him for is, you know, sort of taking what the buyer's temperature is, how enthusiastic are they to close, how much do they really need the transaction to close, because it gives me some insight into how much leverage I have to negotiate certain legal aspects of the transaction, how much I want to push back on, for example, indemnification or covenants or other responsibilities of the seller. And the other thing is, as you said, with your MBA you know just enough to get in trouble. Obviously, I as an attorney don't have the sort of in-depth knowledge of. You know, the actual brewery up that nobody anticipated and that's when lawyers and sellers and buyers really tend to to lean on the broker to to figure out a resolution to those types of problems.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Joe, there's always that tension point in every deal where every side says I'm going to walk away and the other guy says I'm going to walk away, and the other guy says I'm going to walk away, and everybody wants to walk away because some unknown thing came up. And that's when the role of just trying to keep everyone together and on the same page and bring them back comes in, and the attorney and the someone in my role would both be doing that.
Speaker 2:To take a couple steps back. I'm curious. Mhw is often working with brands immediately after their launch, maybe a few years after their launch into several different markets, but they're still pretty young in their journey. So what advice would you give to beverage alcohol brands about what buyers look for and what defines an appealing brand to acquire, so that they can make sure that they're really meeting that criteria? And what does winning look like here?
Speaker 4:The first thing is the consumer. It's a funny thing, but it's so simple. If your brand connects with the consumer, the rest is easy. The rest is just management. And if the brand doesn't connect with the consumer, no matter what you do, it's not going to work. So everything starts with whether the consumer wants your brand. Once you have that and the level of consumer demand, that allows you to have some control over your pricing, so your margins are good, so your profitability is good, so your cash flow is good and you're using your capacity the right way. So all of those things start with the consumer and work that way.
Speaker 4:The other things that matter that buyers look for is it's got to be a fit. That's also one of the magic words. If it's a fit, so if the businesses are compatible, the buyer wants to buy your business because he thinks he can make more money on it than you can. So they're going to buy it and put it into their system and presumably they have synergies that allow them to more than pay out the purchase price. So that's what they're looking for. And they're also looking, especially now, for low risk.
Speaker 4:People years ago would be willing to take more risk on a brand that they thought might take off. People, or buyers, are much more risk averse now that we're in an industry and maybe we'll talk about that, but we're in an industry that's that's struggling. So but what does winning look like? It's the greatest feeling in the world when you're winning and your business is winning. When you're winning and your business is winning, as I said, first it starts the consumer wants your brand, then your distribution is there because the retailers want to carry your brand and the distributors want to sell your brand and everybody loves you and you feel like a hero and it's all wonderful and that's momentum. Momentum's a powerful thing. It's also a powerful thing in the other direction.
Speaker 4:And what does losing look like? And unfortunately, there's a lot of that going on right now. I hate to use the word losing, but there are a lot of struggles out there, because the environment is hard and when your consumer kind of gets off your brand and they're on to other things maybe they're on to other beverages, or your brand has lost a little of its cachet, or in distant markets people just aren't buying it anymore Then you start losing distribution and everything I just went through. The opposite kind of happens, and then it's a matter of do you get out or can you get out, and is there still enough value for a buyer to make a deal?
Speaker 2:That's really interesting because I think you know, when it comes to the sales and marketing game, there's more and more competition, and the beer space in particular, over the last 10 to 15 years. What does that look like now and I imagine it has to be different based on the environment when a beer company approaches you and asks for you to accelerate their sales and marketing. What would company approaches you and asks for you to accelerate their sales and marketing, what would be your approach and how would you kind of walk them through the steps?
Speaker 4:Well, it starts when they need to accelerate their sales and marketing, there's already an issue.
Speaker 4:So you know, if it's a startup and they're just getting going and there are no issues yet because you're just getting out of the gate, then again you look at the consumer and you look at the branding. With beer, especially the brand of beer that you hold in your hand is a badge. It's a statement about who you are, what your identity is, your self-identity, and when I'm holding that can of beer in my hand, I'm making a statement about myself. And if consumers buy into your statement and they wear that badge, then your marketing is going to take off and do really well. So again, in all your marketing, whether it's social media or just word of mouth or whatever it is, it's all based on that badge and that identity that the consumer has, and then sales comes from that. You can get all the distribution in the world, but if your brand isn't selling, it's not going to do you any good. You're going to lose it soon enough. So one thing leads to another and it's all momentum led by the consumer.
Speaker 2:And how, joe, I'll turn it over to you. How can you make sure this process happens compliantly and legally? I know you help a lot of businesses set up their ownership structures, get their licensing and permitting, look at distribution agreements and that can be, depending on the market, a very tricky consideration. So what are some of the things you would, you would look at?
Speaker 3:So the first thing I'll say when you know a new company is thinking about selecting a lawyer, a lot of companies don't like to put legal fees up front right. There's lots of other startup costs that they have involved and a lot of times it's one of the last things they're thinking about and the last things that they want to spend money on. But setting your company up correctly from the start can really set it up for success over time and if the goal is an exit, ultimately can make that exit a lot cleaner. The right legal partner can help improve the value of your company tremendously. In terms of what type of lawyer you'd want to hire, you wouldn't necessarily want to hire a solo practitioner who's spread extremely thin over the number of different issues that you might face, you know as a young beer company. On the other side, you wouldn't necessarily want to hire a big law firm where people are charging fifteen hundred dollars an hour and you relatively less important client to them. So I think choosing a lawyer that has expertise or relationships in areas like contracts, who has relationships with accountants, intellectual property which is extremely important to the value of brands, real estate right you may be le estate right you may be leasing a space, you may be leasing an office, you may have a tap room.
Speaker 3:Who has experience with finance? Some companies may bootstrap themselves. Others may, you know, have money that they're going to invest individually. But a lot of companies, when they they're getting started, are taking out loans, whether they be SBA loans, private loans, raising money from friends and family through a private placement. And having a lawyer with, like I said, with experience in all of those different areas is extremely important because you want to keep all of your information and knowledge and institutional knowledge in the same place right when you move things around, things get lost, takes time to catch people up to speed and you don't sort of build this deep understanding of what a company is that can ultimately be, you know, extremely valuable to the client.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you know if the end goal for a brand is an exit? Yeah, at what point should a brand begin engaging with specialized services, both on the legal and the consulting side? Or what does that look like and when? Like, what boxes need to be ticked before they start going? Ok, let's start moving this along. Is it just sales numbers? What are we looking at?
Speaker 3:Well, they come up as you go along, right? So prior to selling anything, you need to get licensing and regulatory in place. Anything, you need to get licensing and regulatory in place. When you start hiring employees, you may want to think about contacting a lawyer about that. When you lease a space, you probably want to have a lawyer or an expert review what your lease looks like. If you're taking out a loan, you probably want to have representation. So it sort of depends on how your startup evolves and when issues begin to happen.
Speaker 4:I'll say one thing as a practitioner. Someone told me a long time ago listen to your lawyers and bring them in early. And lawyers are expensive and you hate to get those bills, but when you need them, the lawyering you did a couple of years ago, boy, it sure comes back to help you when the time comes that you need something like that. You may never need it, but a good attorney, someone like Joe, the way they will review your contracts, keep you out of trouble, help prevent problems before they start you out of trouble, help prevent problems before they start. Every now and then it's that one word in a contract that makes all the difference, and it has helped me to have good attorneys on the case.
Speaker 3:And it's, you know, one of those things where, if you don't ask, people can't say yes, and I find more and more in life that when you ask for things, people like to say yes, but if you don't have somebody in your corner knowing what to ask for, you may miss out on an opportunity that you didn't even know.
Speaker 2:One thing that comes to mind for me that you hear time and time again that there's owners that will sometimes do handshake deal with each other. Maybe they started as buddies and then they created a beer brand together and years down the line they're looking at whether it's selling or dissolving, whatever that might look like and that might be a mire for you to have to look through. Joe, right, if you encounter a situation like that, where you're trying to figure out ownership structure and the legal boundaries of that all, so for some of our clients that are getting that ownership structure together and the licensing, what are the recommendations that you have there.
Speaker 3:Well, a lot of businesses these days use a limited liability company form, so having a strong operating agreement that is carefully considered, thought out and discussed is extremely important. If you look at where a lot of disputes and litigation in the business context arise, it's actually because one person thought the agreement was one thing and the other person thought the agreement was something else, and there's nothing written on paper to say who's right. So actually nobody's right and you wind up with no real good way to resolve things. To the extent that you write things down in an operating agreement or a shareholder's agreement, it's sort of a reference point that you can look back at years later and say, oh, this is what we actually agreed on, and I highly recommend that you don't just sign some form operating agreement when more than one person is involved. Right, because it's a contract that's going to bind you for the rest of the life of the company.
Speaker 2:And Mike, a lot of times when you sell a beer brand or, as is the case, when you've been involved, there are still expectations on you to have involvement in the business post sale, and so it's never that you can kind of cleanly sell it and walk away. There's responsibilities and obligations there. What would you recommend to brands in terms of, say, they do have a great buyer and they're going through the process to ensure that they have the best of both worlds met here?
Speaker 4:Well, if you're fortunate enough as a seller to be able to make sure that you sell to the right people, trust and integrity are amazing things and when you have that, everything is easy.
Speaker 4:So you sell your business and maybe it's an earn out, where you get a certain amount of cash up front and then the buyer pays a certain amount to the seller based on performance or whatever the structure is. Sometimes the entrepreneur stays on as a consultant or sometimes they stay on as an employee, but you want to sell to people who you like and who you trust and who have a shared vision. If you have that luxury, sometimes you have to sell and again, on the best case, what I just outlined is what happens. And in a lot of other cases you have people who have debt and they may not be selling the company, but they're selling the assets of the company, essentially the intellectual property, the brands, and they sell the brand, but they still are expected to help support, you know, usually by some kind of consulting agreement or employment agreement or just certainly in transition, to make sure that it goes well, so that the buyer gets what they bargained for.
Speaker 2:The other question and curiosity that I have relates to when a brand is looking to sell. Mike, you have an incredible repertoire of relationships and, I think, just an uncanny ability to see where a brand might fit in another portfolio, where there's synergies there. How does that process go about? If, say, you have a client that is maybe ready to walk out for bid, and what does that look like as opposed to maybe the last 10 years?
Speaker 4:Things have certainly changed in the last 10 years. Today, if it's someone who's new to me, not someone I've worked with, the first thing you do is you look at their business and their financials and their sales performances and you dig into all of the data that they have and figure out where they need to strengthen their business. If it's a struggling company, the first thing you have to do is stabilize the business. You might say you're not ready to sell yet. Your company's not in a position where you're going to get any value for it. A lot of people, of course, think that their company's worth more than it is, and the value of any company is worth what someone's willing to pay for it. So the first thing you have to do is help that company position itself for a successful sale.
Speaker 4:No one wants to go through the process and not end up with a transaction that's painful for everyone. So stabilizing the business is the first thing. If it's declining or if there are issues, straighten those things out and get it done, and then after that you want to strengthen the business and just make sure that the business is in a good position for a sale. Once you work with the client to get that done, then you go out and go through the whole process of trying to figure out who are the likely buyers for this company, who's the best fit and, again, who are the best people, because you want to make sure you're dealing with good people. Everything's easy if you're dealing with people who, in good faith, want to make a transaction, as opposed to someone who wants to just try to steal something from somebody.
Speaker 2:And do you think that, based on how the environment's changed, do you have any predictions for where this vertical is trending, and what are some things that a seller should keep in mind if they're trying to achieve an exit during this time period right now?
Speaker 4:Depends on what category you're in. For craft breweries, 10 years ago was the heyday. Those were the golden years, and I remember standing at the Southern Brewers Conference giving a speech in 2016 on the changes to come and you could see the kind of curve in the life cycle of craft beer beginning to peak and, sure enough, brands and categories tend to have a 15 or 20 year run and that's what craft beer had. So the M&A atmosphere you had. Companies like Ballast Point sold for a billion dollars and ended up being a tremendous overpayment by Constellation was the buyer in that case. Other brands you know Lagunitas went for a billion dollars and a lot, of, a lot of brands had very, very high valuations that you know that sold at the peak.
Speaker 4:Today, what a buyer looks for is trends. Today, what a buyer looks for is trends. There are very few craft beer brands that are trending up, but those that are, the buyer looks for that and they say, well, if I buy this brand and put it into my system with my distributors, can we operate this brand profitably and get a return on our investment? So the atmosphere is much, much harder. The valuations are way down versus even five years ago and if you do have a growth brand that's profitable, you're in a good position. Hopefully you have a few horses running around the track and different people bidding on it. That's what happened years ago. Today it's much tougher. If you can get a couple of good buyers, then you're in a good position.
Speaker 1:Joe, what advice would you give to brands who are going to enter this process? Maybe they've had some preliminary talks and some emails exchanged, but having represented the seller side in your last couple of beer transactions here, what advice do you have for people in that position out there?
Speaker 3:Well, first I'll say that Mike Stoll probably my number one piece of advice was you have to like and trust the buyer for all of the reasons that he talked about. It's somebody that you're going to deal with, even if there is no post-closing obligations. You're going to deal with over the course of a three-month, six-month, year-long process of getting from sharing the initial information with them to closing, of getting from sharing the initial information with them to closing. Another piece of advice I would give is to get your lawyer involved before you sign a letter of intent. So a letter of intent is a non-binding contract, sort of an oxymoron, but a non-binding contract that outlines what are the most important terms of the deal, things like purchase price, what sort of post-closing consideration might be paid, whether that's debt, whether that's some kind of an earn out, whether that's, you know, a per case bonus to the seller. It will often discuss non-compete arrangements, right, a buyer doesn't want to come in, buy a company and then the seller turns around and starts stealing their business from day one. So that's, you know, often a big aspect of it. And the reason that it's important to have a lawyer involved in the letter of intent is it really sets the tone for the entire transaction. Although it's non-binding, what is in there becomes sort of the baseline assumptions for both parties about what the terms of the transaction are and what it will look like as the process moves along and it becomes, you know, difficult for a buyer on one hand or a seller on the other to try and change one of those terms later on. It's called like a retrade, where we have this sort of non-binding deal and now you want to pay me $500,000 less. Why and the buyer may have a very good reason at that point you know something they uncovered in due diligence, some liability that they didn't know about. You know when they agreed to pay a million dollars and now you know, because of that liability the company is legitimately worth less. But it prevents the buyer from coming back and just saying, hey, we want to pay you $100,000 less for no reason. Because people I've found and this is well beyond the beer industry, but maybe particularly in the beer industry if they agree to do something, they generally do it. People don't sign pieces of paper with the intention of going back on their word. So letter of intent, I think, is an underrated, extremely important document.
Speaker 3:Another thing for sellers to keep in mind. We talked about how long the transaction may actually take to close, but it's also the intensity of the work in preparing for the transaction putting together financials, putting together recipes, negotiating. The difficulty of dealing with employees who you know may be losing their jobs or may be, you know, offer jobs by the buyer, keeping track of all of your contracts, making them available for review. And I think the more a seller puts into the process, the sort of the less involved in terms of time. At least the lawyer needs to be involved, right, some sellers are extremely disorganized and it takes a lot of work for lawyers and brokers just to put the pieces together, to even start to review or start to do things. So, to the extent a seller can do those kinds of things for themselves, not only will they have a better understanding of their business, not only will they create value, but they'll save time and money on legal expenses.
Speaker 3:And third is when you actually get to the LOI stage. I think there is a tendency for sellers to overestimate the likelihood that a deal will close. They sort of think all right, I have my LOI, I've got this buyer, they want to pay me five million dollars, the deal is going to close 100%, when what I've seen is significantly less than 100% of deals actually close for one reason or another, and the longer deals tend to go on. Time kills deals. So having not a backup plan in mind, but understanding what the future looks like if one particular deal does not close is very important, and whether that be how you're going to deal with financing, how you're going to find an alternative buyer, how you're going to keep your employees happy, how you may decide to continue just running the business if a particular transaction falls through, is definitely something to keep in mind for sellers.
Speaker 1:For our listeners who have their own brands and they feel like maybe they're ready or maybe they've got questions about for when they are ready. How can they start preparing themselves as far as like self-education? Should they just go ahead and give one of you a call or shoot you an email? Is there a website? Is there a book they should read? What's sort of an easy next step from this podcast? What can they do today?
Speaker 4:I talk to people every week who are interested in selling their businesses either sooner or down the road, and it's always an interesting conversation and for most of them it's you're not ready to sell your business yet. Now is not the time. There are some things you have to do to get it ready, and so the earlier people initiate those conversations. You know, I I talk to people all the time and I don't charge people for something like that and you just try to understand and I learn a lot from everyone I talk to. Everyone's got a different set of issues. There's a lot of commonality, but if I'm either an importer or a brewer or have a non-alcoholic beverage company, I would make that phone call sooner, because I always say when something can do you some good but it can't do you any harm, then go ahead and do it, make the phone call and get the advice and take it or don't take it, but no reason not to ask for it.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, to bring us up out of the weeds, we'll wrap up with our favorite fun question that we always like to ask on the podcast here, and that is what is your favorite alcoholic beverage these days?
Speaker 3:And we'll start with you, joe, I pretty much exclusively drink beer, so I mean not to the exclusion of all other beverages.
Speaker 1:No water for Joe.
Speaker 3:No water, coffee and beer are pretty much my big three. For a mass market beer, I like Goose Island. For sort of a smaller brewery, I like Cigar City Highline, which I'm actually seeing you know more and more places these days. And for a small craft brewery, bridget and I used to live about a block away from a brewery in Astoria, queens, called Single Cut that makes amazing small batch beers of every kind. So those are my three.
Speaker 2:And, as a marketing person, I absolutely loved their packaging. They always had very unique graphic design for each skew.
Speaker 1:So I would go just to appreciate that. Mike.
Speaker 4:I always say it's a better time when you have a beer in your hand than when you don't. And I love beer. So I'm more of a lager pilsner guy, and if the beer is fresh I can taste fresh beer instantly and I can smell the old beer before I even taste it. So if the beer is fresh and it's good quality, I love it, I don't care what the brand is All right.
Speaker 1:So we've got Joe with it Sounds Like More of an IPA Guy and Mike with your Lagers and Pilsners Very good. Well, for folks who want to find out more, check out brewersadvisorscom to see what's going on with Mike, and we'll have links in the show notes for anybody who's really interested in following up with either of our guests. So thank you so much, mike Matero and Joseph Manorino, for stopping by.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Thanks for having me and thank you listeners for joining us on the MHW Mark podcast, and thanks again to Bridget McCabe for joining me in hosting Absolutely. This podcast is produced by me, jimmy Moreland, with booking and planning support by Cassidy Poe. It's presented by MHW. Find out more at mhwltdcom or connect with MHW on LinkedIn. Lend us a hand by subscribing, rating and reviewing this podcast wherever you listen. We'll be back in your feed in two weeks with part two of this special series. We'll see you then, cheers.