The MHW Mark Podcast

Leveraging Your Brand's DEI Story With Authenticity - with Deborah Brenner

• MHW • Episode 47

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In this episode, we once again welcome a returning guest for an important discussion on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the beverage alcohol industry. Host Jimmy Moreland and MHW’s Cassidy Poe chat with Women of the Vine & Spirits and Diverse Powered Brands founder Deborah Brenner about how all kinds of brands and related businesses can cultivate and incorporate inclusivity into their culture. We dive further into how the relevancy and impact of these issues differ among different age cohorts, and how to avoid potential challenges in hiring and operations.

Find out more about Women of the Vine & Spirits: Website

Also check out Diverse Powered Brands: Website

Hear our previous episode with Deborah: Episode 11

More info about MHW at https://www.mhwltd.com/
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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep dives into various aspects of the alcohol industry. My name is Jimmy Moreland. Mhw is a US and EU beverage alcohol importer, distributor and service provider Co-hosting with me. Today we are welcoming back Cassidy Poe. Hello, cassidy.

Speaker 2:

Hey, jimmy, always happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

Cassidy Poe. Hello Cassidy, hey Jimmy, always happy to be here, very good to be with you. How is New York treating you? The listeners may already sort of know how this thing works, but we've already recorded the main conversation. But I didn't hear a single siren or crazy thing happen outside your windows today.

Speaker 2:

I will say I was muted for a lot of that because of the sound of my AC unit, because it is insanely hot today here in the city. We're supposed to hit a feels like high of 100 degrees today.

Speaker 1:

That's rough. Well, I hope everyone out there is staying cool. If you're able, let's talk about today's conversation. It's a good one, it's an important one that we've had on this podcast before, and that is the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion in the beverage alcohol industry. Today we add a bit of a wrinkle or perhaps it's better to think of it as an axis to think about this topic and that is the axis of generational cohorts. Now we have me I am dead center in the millennial cohort, and Cassidy, you're Gen Z and are you dead center as well?

Speaker 2:

No, I'm technically an older Gen Z. I'm in the first couple years of Gen Z. So, it's interesting. I actually, before we recorded this, I was Googling what the year like, what the cutoff was for Gen Z, and it actually it's like 1997 to 2012, which I thought was very interesting. Especially the 2012 part. I was like, wow, there's a big difference I at least, I think between different ages within Gen Z, and I'm sure you would feel the same about millennials as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I promise you listeners, this podcast does not devolve into kids these days, but our guest is the official representative of Gen X on this particular episode and she has some really good insights on not just her personal experiences with her own generation, but a lot of it is data-driven. She's seen a lot of numbers about different consumer behaviors based on when they were born, and that is a bit of a. It's not destiny, but it drives behaviors for sure. So it's a really fun conversation. So, without further ado, we're going to go ahead and get into it. Our guest today is the founder of Women of the Vine and Spirits, the global membership organization dedicated to pushing the wine, beer and spirits industry forward in a more diverse, equitable and inclusive era that supports business development and innovation. Welcome back to the show, debra Brenner.

Speaker 3:

Hi Jimmy, Thank you so much for having me here today.

Speaker 1:

It's so good to have you back. We love having return guests. We don't do it very frequently, but if listeners want to get a little bit more familiar with Debra, you can go all the way back to episode 11 in the early days of the podcast and you can listen to that episode. But for right now, for people who don't have time to do that, can you give us a little bit of a background about yourself and just sort of reintroduce yourself?

Speaker 3:

Oh, absolutely, thank you. So, yeah, a lot going on since I was last on the podcast. So basically, I started Women of the Vine and Spirits as a global membership organization really looking to advance and empower women in what was a traditional male-dominated industry. I had a passion for it over 20 years ago when I entered the industry from the tech industry and just really recognized that there was so much amazing talent and just wanted to give a platform and an outlet for men and women across all three tiers and all industry sectors, to recognize and to really look at having more diverse teams. They're just going to get a lot of different thinking and started the organization now just over 10 years ago.

Speaker 3:

So we've come quite a long way and within that 10 years we've seen so many women in such incredible leadership roles and taking over companies and getting promotions and all sectors you know, and the wholesale tier, the retail tier, on off the premise and suppliers. So it really, I think, demonstrated that once we started having the conversations and really talking about it, it was really looking at the teams and how we can make a difference. But with that we also looked at certain policies and things you know that would allow for empowering women into the leadership roles, and when I say that it's all women, you know every woman that's in the industry and that also shaped a lot of decisions for companies, being able to maybe just tweak some policies, making things a little more flexible. So that's really a lot of what we do, but we also are an incredible network of people. We can't you know, and most people join trade organizations for the networking and we just have an incredible large amount of people globally that are just like-minded and want to do business with one another.

Speaker 2:

I can vouch for that myself. This with one another I can vouch for that myself, having been to a couple One of the Vining Spirits activations really is a great network and everyone's always so happy to meet new people and give advice. So I've been grateful for that myself, and I know the rest of the women on MHW are as well.

Speaker 3:

And we welcome all our men too. Right, cassie? We have all of them because we're kind of advancing the industry into a more modern era together, you know, and breaking all kinds of barriers together and you know, really reflecting. You know what the business is like and how we support, but the activations are always a lot of fun because we've created a just like companies. Right, you have to create a company culture and our company culture is one of being very collaborative, being very supportive, celebrating each other's wins, not competitive, taking off the competitive hat for the greater good of the industry.

Speaker 3:

And I really think our membership has been so strong because of that culture that we have has been so strong because of that culture that we have. And people join because they know genuinely you could reach out to our members and they're really very open to share and give advice. When I started in the industry as a wine supplier over 20 years ago, there wasn't a lot of places for me to go to. It was like a secret handshake If you weren't in this business, figure it out on your own and it was definitely the school of hard knocks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know a couple of our female executives have said very similar things. They've come a long way in the industry as well, so we're happy to see a lot of things changing lately. A long way in the industry as well, so we're happy to see a lot of things changing lately. We also want to switch gears a little bit to diverse powered brands. I know a lot has changed since you were last on regarding that specifically, so do you want to tell us updates on that and what initiatives you're currently working on?

Speaker 3:

Sure, it is a separate, standalone company from Women of the Vining Spirit, so it has nothing to do with corporate membership or individual. Anybody can sign up for Diverse Power Brands. The reason why I started a new company and more of a platform database catalog was to empower suppliers that were diverse, own led or made, which is basically BIPOC, LGBTQI+, veteran women and disabled. These were very important things to consumers over the last few years, as socially conscious consumerism has been on the rise, and yet it was very difficult for buyers to be able to identify and find those in those categories that qualified and buyers were really seeking them because they wanted to satisfy their customers. So if you owned a certain bar or a certain restaurant or a certain retail store, you have a particular clientele. You may want to be able to find these. That's going to surprise and delight, and there was no easy way to do that.

Speaker 3:

So that's what I created. Basically, it's a very affordable sales and marketing tool for brands that are diverse and they can use it as a sales and marketing tool to build campaigns, to get out there and to work with buyers, and we are always working with buyers. So, Cassidy, one of the new things we did was. We just did BCB Brooklyn in June and we hosted our very first pitch competition and that was very exciting in combination with Women of the Vine and Spirits and Diverse Power Brands and the prize package included MHW and also in the judging and it was a prize package worth over $51,000 with basically our corporate members of Women of the Vine and Spirits lending their expertise to help the winner really scale their brand.

Speaker 1:

Do we want to give a shout out to the winner of the pitch competition?

Speaker 3:

Yes, it was Adriatico for their Amaretto and it was wonderful. All of the candidates were great. It was wonderful, they got up, they pitched, our judges were fantastic and you can find more information about it on our website and Diverse Power Brands. But what we did, jimmy, was we looked need a 360-degree plan as you enter as a brand into the three-tier system in the US. The winner happened to be from Italy, so you can even imagine that it's even more difficult, coming from outside of the US, to understand the three-tier system in the US, and you really do need to look at everything from packaging to your distribution, your importing to your PR plans, to everything that goes into it, in order to be able to launch and get to market, but also to scale and accelerate. And, of course, mhw is a big part of that, because that's part of your 360 degree plan. So that's the kind of stuff that we're doing now really trying to help connect people together and put them into that right holistic package.

Speaker 1:

Looking ahead. I want to talk about, I guess, trends or forecast. I'm asking you to. I know it's always a little risky to predict the future, but I'm curious, without getting political, there are some folks who in the past few years have come to view the concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and even view just the acronym almost as a curse word. A dirty word. Almost as a curse word, a dirty word. Do you feel that that's a cyclical thing? Do you feel like the pendulum will swing? Do you feel like it's a matter of education? How do we sort of tackle these sort of strange, perhaps uniquely American, cultural shifts and how do we move forward and do you see that going in a positive direction over the next, say, five to 10 years?

Speaker 3:

You know it's a very good question. I think that the acronym and the terms can often be misunderstood. I mean, most people have to Google what the difference between equality and equity is. That's a huge, huge thing that a lot of people really just don't understand the nuances. So I think that a lot of that is problematic.

Speaker 3:

My approach in the industry is not like, okay, we have to educate everybody and we have to do that. To be very honest, the way that it works, in particular with beverage alcohol is you're not going to get on the shelf, You're not going to get your product purchased, You're not going to get distribution because of an attribute it has to. It is the most competitively global industry. I mean, I worked in the tech industry and I got to tell you I thought that moved fast and that was competitive, and I was in high-end technology, television and film for 16 years before. But this is highly competitive.

Speaker 3:

So I always say to people will the pendulum swing? It really doesn't matter, it's you have to have the right packaging, the right price point, the right juice in the bottle, the right taste. You have to know your target audience. It's your story, your brand, your way, and if a diverse attribute is part of that in your DNA, then it's part of anybody's brand in their DNA, your DNA then it's part of anybody's brand in their DNA, regardless of what it is that they're selling, even for celebrities that themselves are the brand right, and so it really doesn't give you a foot in the door and a free pass, Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

If anything, you have to work that much harder because we know that women and minorities get the least amount of venture capital out there from VCs, and yet this is a very capital intensive endeavor to start a BevOut brand. So you know why I did it was to give founders and not just founders and owners, but also makers an opportunity to hone in on that being one piece. And then what is that whole brand story around it? That's going to resonate with your target audience, and so it should be part of it. Going to resonate with your target audience, and so it should be part of it. Going in and saying I'm a women-owned or veteran-owned brand is not going to get somebody to take your product.

Speaker 2:

Deb, I want to hone in on something you've just emphasized the target audience. Understanding your target audience, the consumers it's one of the most important things for brand owners to need to understand how to do so. How do you think consumer expectations regarding, like, brand values, inclusion how has that evolved, and is there anything that producers should do to respond to that? Is there something they should focus on when marketing their brands, and what is your advice on that?

Speaker 3:

I love this question, Cassidy, because just yesterday I was looking at some things that Amazon's doing and, of course, Jimmy, back to your question, with not getting political or anything is Amazon and their sellers thing. They talk about the value and the importance of sharing your brand values, and I love seeing what other you know e-commerce sites and other retail that are doing. Brand values is really the most important thing, right? So it's not about a personal attribute, it's what's the value to the brand. So, and you have to have that baked into your DNA, especially with younger people today, they can see through. It's very transparent when somebody is being performative and just doing something because they think it's going to look good to that target audience.

Speaker 3:

So the values can be everything from charities that you support, activities that you do, that you support activities that you do. I'll be honest, like if you look at like Tito's and you look back at when he started, you know, 20 something years ago, he really leaned into a lot of charitable activities and he started on a local level. Doesn't need to be on a national level, could be local, right to you know your area. That's part of your brand value. What is it that you value? Valuing people, valuing place, valuing things that are important to you and what your brand stands for and that's also Cassie.

Speaker 3:

Then how do you find your target audience is those like-minded people that are sharing in your values are going to be the ones that are going to want to support you, and those values could be everything.

Speaker 3:

Like I love animals, you know it could be so much that, like for me, part of my brand values could be the charitable work that I do to take care of, you know, dogs and cats that need and that may help shape my audience, my target audience. And then the activities that I do are very authentic to my brand values, because I want to be out there supporting things that I care about, people that I care about. So, yeah, brand values is, Jimmy, that's the new thing that you're going to start seeing in people's profiles and brand stories and the way that they're talking about versus the other, Because you really can't get political about, like you're saying things that you believe in, things that your company believes in. It's how you build a company culture, right? I want to build my culture with people that value other people and people's opinions, and you know you may not have to agree with everyone, but I want to value their opinion and let them feel like they can share it.

Speaker 1:

Do you think we'll see more of the same, of things moving in that direction? Or do you think, because obviously there's been so many shifts in work culture in general in the last five-ish years, with people employers in particular trying to move away from work from home, for example, so do you think that there's more of a shakeup coming, or do you think this vision you've laid out is going to continue to grow?

Speaker 3:

Again, I think it comes down to your company, your culture and your brand. If your company and culture and brand is very collaborative and social, then working remotely may not be the best solution for you to be authentic to what you believe in. I worked in the tech days, like I said, in television and film. You had all the post-production houses and you spent so much time in post that they had pool tables and game tables and fun things and vending machines and food and catering. I mean, it was basically, you know, they built this culture because we knew we were going to spend, you know, 24 hours, seven days a week, until we finished getting ready for Super Bowl ads or something you know, and we were living there. So I think it really depends on what it is that your culture and your brand is all about. So I think that we're going to see both. I think when you see companies like a Patagonia, they encourage people to be remote because they want you to be out in nature. They encourage sabbaticals.

Speaker 3:

My niece doesn't work for them, but works for somebody else. She's half my age. She had a two-month sabbatical to go. My niece doesn't work for them but works for somebody else. She's half my age. She had a two-month sabbatical to go trekking around the world and said I wish I could. You know, I think it depends on what that company is and what they want from their employers. And again, if that's what they want their customers to be doing like Pantagonia out there and trekking, and Clif Bar and everything else then live and breathe and be authentic to what your audience is. You know, and your employees are going to be your biggest brand ambassadors. So if they're out trekking, they're going to be doing it. So it's the same thing for Bevel. I think that it's. You know, some people love to put a suit and tie on and go into an office. Still, I ditched corporate America 23 years ago, wasn't?

Speaker 2:

for me, deb. We touched on this a little last time and I think what you just said really kind of hit the younger generations to come and how they're really impacting people's opinions on brands and how brands should market themselves. So I kind of want to hear how do you think Gen Z is impacting diversity, equity and inclusion also, like on the consumer side, but what you kind of just started to hit on from a professional standpoint as well.

Speaker 3:

There is so much talk about this, cassie, so the question is absolutely important to discuss. You know very much like when I started Women of the Binding Spirits, one of the things that was very frustrating is putting an entire category of people into one descriptive bucket. Gen Z should not be looked at as one big bucket. There's a lot of different types of Gen Z bucket. There's a lot of different types of Gen Z, and I think that's where we need to start as an industry to really segment that group. They say Gen Z's not drinking.

Speaker 3:

Well, let me tell you something I know some Gen Zers that are partying it hard and traveling around the world and doing all kinds of things. And then I have my niece who's a Gen Z who doesn't touch alcohol at all. It's not her thing. So then you have also, without getting into politics, you do have Gen Z demographics that are feeling differently about certain political views than other Gen Zs. There's still division in that age group when you're talking about things. So why are we putting them all into the same bucket?

Speaker 3:

I think what we need to do is talk about the Gen Zs, what they're doing, who they are, and start really segmenting that group, because one that group in stereotypes. They want experiences. They are traveling. They grew up with a cell phone in their hand at the age of two, unlike me, which didn't have a cell phone when I started my career, you know, we didn't even have the internet. So I'm showing my age. So they're global already, you know.

Speaker 3:

And it's not just the pandemic that people think makes them not social. Their faces in the phone 24-7,. They're walking across streets in Manhattan looking at their phone and I'm like, oh my God, you're not even looking up, you know. And I'm like, oh my God, you're not even looking up, you know. There's so much more we should be talking about in addressing that group and embracing the people that want to do things that our brand represents. I do think that they're missing a lot of opportunity. I think that it should not be an excuse why, after the pandemic, numbers and sales are down. It's not down because they're not drinking. It's down because we're not meeting them where they are.

Speaker 3:

And they're not all in one place. We have to get bigger and broader and segment the group, and I could talk about that as a whole podcast, about meeting them where they are and stuff, because that's where we can. You know, like I said, I never thought in my adult life that I would go to a bar and see all of these younger people sipping cocktails out of a can. When I have a bartender to make me a cocktail, you know I'm like what? So let's talk about that, right? You know, let's talk about why are they doing that, their individuality. There's so much I love talking about that if we want to talk about it.

Speaker 1:

It feels like an imposition. Cassidy, as the actual youngest person in this call, can you back me up? So I will often order an old-fashioned. I like an old-fashioned, but I'll specifically say I don't want to be, I don't want to be a bother. You know, am I close or am I just fully dead center millennial with that? Take Cassidy.

Speaker 2:

Um, I mean, I, I am a member of Gen Z, so I can speak on behalf of all of us, I guess. Um, I find it interesting because, like you were saying, deb, I completely agree Like it shouldn't just be thought of one large group who thinks the same exact way about alcohol because, to be honest, the whole thing about like Gen Z is not drinking. I don't have a single person in mind off the top of my head who's in Gen Z who doesn't drink. That I know personally. I do know, like, in regards to like going to the bar ordering cans, I have friends that strictly only drink RTDs when they're at the bar.

Speaker 2:

I mean, another thing to consider with that is a lot of us don't make a ton of money yet and that is cheaper than getting a cocktail. So that's one thing. Like you're saying, we have to dive deeper and think of the reasonings behind why this behavior is happening. We're not like very high maintenance. We're just like it depends on the mood. Like, if I'm going to a cocktail bar, sure, give me the presentation Like that's what I'm paying for, but on any given day it's really not. But I mean, I don't agree with the fact that there's a bartender Like I'm getting a cocktail. I'm not getting a canned drink. I want a cocktail, so we're all different.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, hey, and some bartenders especially. You know depends on where you are High volume, you know, opening a can is so much faster you can move volume Places where you don't want glassware to break around pools or marinas or stadiums and things like that. You know RTDs are amazing and things like that. So, yeah, I mean that's what I'm saying Like we can't put everything into one. Like everybody of Gen Z and I forgot what the statistic is, but I read something recently of how many Gen Zs are becoming, you know, legal drinking age every single year. It's massive. So I really think that I think you also touch on the fact that it's Gen Z grew up in a mobile cell phone, global Internet generation and they stress individuality and not conformity and I think that's reflecting in their drinking and I think also with wine.

Speaker 3:

Wine in a bottle is to be shared. I give credit to mel dick from Southern Glaciers who actually created Wine by the Glass to sell more wine. He was the first person to introduce that. I don't even know how many years ago. Had to be quite a while, but one time he told me that story we were just talking about, because wine, when you are going to make an investment of opening a bottle. Either you drink it all by yourself or you better have some people to share it with, and that's now. It's pretty hard to find. Like you said, cassie, you go to the bar, everybody's drinking something different. So wine by the glass is exploding and that's building that market and now it's becoming wine and RTDs. I got lots of people I work with that have canned wines and things. So again it's. It is an individuality, a non-conformity and convenience convenience in price. You know, these are things we really have to be talking about.

Speaker 2:

Makes me think of wine in a box. It started as a college phenomenon, at least for my age, that people were only really drinking wine in a box, and the whole selling point is basically you're saving money because you don't have to drink it all right away, because it'll last longer. I opened a bottle of wine last night. I was sharing, we had two glasses and then we realized we didn't want any more. We have a whole bottle left. It's like oh, we're leaving for the weekend, I guess we're out of luck. But if it's boxed wine, it's a whole other left. It's like, oh, we're leaving for the weekend, I guess we're out of luck, but if it's boxed wine, it's a whole other situation. So that kind of comes into play too the convenience of it all.

Speaker 3:

You know it's so funny when you think that, and I mean I'm not starting another brand, but I've yet to see line in a box like a kid's juice box where it's single serve.

Speaker 1:

Like a pre-sun.

Speaker 3:

And you don't need to spend the money on aluminum for a can.

Speaker 2:

Wine in a pouch. That's a good idea.

Speaker 3:

Right, Because I mean, I think about all the little kids. They peel off the straw and stick it in.

Speaker 1:

Your sippy cup, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Instead of like a big wine in the box, I can take it with me.

Speaker 1:

Listeners, stay tuned. One year from now, we will have that brand on the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Maybe one of your clients, cassidy for MHW. But yeah, these are really. I love talking about the demographics and the different people and stuff because my background is in marketing and business development, so I love exploring and having these conversations. We'll have to talk about it as well, but that's also the kind of stuff that I talk a lot with.

Speaker 3:

Our brands in both Women of the Vine and Spirits and in diverse power brands is no pun intended, or I should say pun intended. Think out of the box. You got to differentiate because the competition is so huge. Growing up, we were maybe five vodka brands were out there. You know our liquor stores were local and small and family owned and operated and just the amount of options and choices out there, it's incredible. So you really have to know what differentiates yours and then just lean into that and realize that you know. Just lean into that and realize that you know if you're selling a Mercedes, that's your target audience. That's going to be very different than selling a Toyota, corolla or something else. You know like you just stay in your lane and being niche can actually be very lucrative versus trying to appeal to the masses. That's really hard.

Speaker 2:

Not to put Gen Z or any generation back in a box here, but in terms of diversity and those brand values, do you see people in the younger generations caring more about brand story compared to the older generations, or is that a myth we've all been hearing?

Speaker 3:

I think that, to your point, if we put them in one bucket I don't want to put everybody in one bucket there's a lot of people that are very well off, but a majority are just entering the workforce and they're not making a lot of money and they're on their own. So I think that price and taste is, first and foremost, the most important thing for capturing that audience, because they are limited in what they can spend. I can tell you I am even older than you guys, because I think I'm considered Gen X, you know. The thing is is that brands that were really popular back in the day they didn't innovate, so things that my grandparents drank, my parents drank, some of those brands don't exist. And then you see brands that are celebrating their 500th year, like Disarono and other things. So what makes that happen? Some are cocktails, right, you have some cocktails that were so popular back in the day and now those are no longer even talked about. Now there's a resurgent of some of those retro cocktails coming back into play. So, but I still think brand story is important, but the other parts have to be there first, which is, you know, the price and and the flavor and the taste. I will tell you.

Speaker 3:

Brand story is really important when you mess up, because for Gen Z, everything is at the tip of their fingers and so if you mess up something that doesn't resonate as part of your DNA, then they're going to call you out on it immediately. So I think your brand story and your brand values is very important so that you stay in your lane. Now again, not getting political but if your brand values is to a very certain niche group and maybe I don't agree with that, but there's a whole market that does then you got to stay on point to that and don't flip-flop, because your loyal brand followers are going to say what did you just do? I don't even have to use the example I think it's probably already coming in your head of a couple of things that have happened where somebody flip-flopped and forgot what is our brand value, but what's our values of our consumer? Make sure they're aligned.

Speaker 1:

We've talked a lot about authenticity. That's probably the biggest buzzword of this podcast over the last year and change that we've been doing it. Can we talk about sort of that authenticity as it relates to, I guess, the less public-facing side, so not necessarily in advertising and marketing and all of those sort of consumer communication channels, but more in? I'm thinking in hiring practices and things like that? What are you seeing brands and other people in the space in this industry do to try to attract talent that sort of aligns with their principles and so forth?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. I mean, again, it all comes down to your brand values and the company culture. So you know you want to attract people that are going to share your values, because they are going to be your biggest brand ambassadors, you know, and they're going to be the ones that go out there and it doesn't matter what capacity they work in, it doesn't matter if they work in the warehouse, they work on a forklift or they, you know, are doing admin work or they're marketing, and that they still want to have pride in the company that they work with, and part of that pride is to be able to enjoy the products that the company makes and to introduce friends and family to those products, right? So you really want to make sure that you're hiring and that is, that you talk about your company's and your brand's values and you should be asking very specific questions during the hiring process to get a better understanding of their values and to make sure it's going to be a good fit. One make sure it's a good fit because they're going to be again representing your brand. But also, we all have had experiences, I'm sure, in listeners, where you hire somebody that doesn't share in that and it can upset the entire apple cart, as they say, one bad apple. It's like, all of a sudden, and again, everybody can have opinions and do things and believe in different things. It's how the company culture is to make you feel like your opinion matters regardless. If we agree or disagree, it's okay, but then I expect you to be tolerant to other people in my organization as well. So I think it's it really and if your brand does really have, you know, a forward facing, like you said, it's not, you know, you really want to make sure that you look for that in your hiring, because it could be a contradiction in, you know, in their values. Like I said, you know, if my brand was built on the love of animals, I may ask some pertinent questions about you know, do you have any pets? Did you grow up with any pets? Did you? You know, do you like to go to the zoo? I mean, you need to think about how you want your company, your brand, to be represented and tolerance for different things.

Speaker 3:

You know, believe it or not, when I worked in that tech film, I remember going into studios where all they did was make these hunting videos, you know, and stuff. They're very big on channels and stuff of people watching it and I knew that there's no way I could work there, because I wouldn't be able to edit and do that stuff all day long. I would cringe. So it's, you know, it's like everything. So share your values right up front, because the person on the other side of the table, they're not going to want to work for you either Because, like I said, I don't want to sit there and watch those videos all day long. I certainly didn't want to market them and sell them. So you know funny examples, but I don't want to. I don't want to market them and sell them. So you know funny examples, but I don't want to. I don't want to call anybody out particularly so but I think, yeah, I think that's really important you know, I wanted to ask beyond like making sure that your hiring practices are representative of your values.

Speaker 2:

How do you think, like amongst a brand's employees, how best should they foster inclusion and belonging? What kind of things can they do to kind of make sure that that company culture is upheld? It could be something like becoming a member of Woman of the Vine and Spirits. I just want to hear if you have any other ideas for our listeners, to kind of pick your brain here.

Speaker 3:

Well, I love you saying that, cassidy, because that's one way that we really tell people as part of building that. The other thing is, you have to really listen as leaders. You need to empower your leaders to intervene and also to help foster that sense. So, for example, just giving examples of what do I mean I'm in a meeting I may be middle management, I'm not in executive management. I'm in a meeting with some team members and somebody is saying something that maybe sounds a little derogatory, could be something that's a little bit makes people not feel inclusive, maybe cutting them off, not wanting to hear what somebody has to say, or being derogatory because of their position and title. As a leader. It doesn't matter what position you're in. It's your job as a company culture to say wait, wait, wait. I'd love to hear what Cassidy has to say. Hang on, jimmy. I want to hear what Cassidy has to say. Cassidy, please, you know, or hang on a second, jimmy. What were you talking about? Or say to somebody like well, you know, we really don't talk about certain groups like that here. It's not the way we want, you know, to talk about people, and I think that's where you empower your people. Again, going back to Women of the Binding Spirits, of empowering people. The company should feel that people are empowered to do that and that's how you create and sustain a company culture that you want in your.

Speaker 3:

Because we've all been in companies I say we all I have in my past where the company culture was a bit toxic, and I tried in the old days because this was very, very different. When I entered the workforce in the late 80s, early 90s, showing my age, there wasn't. First of all, I never even heard of HR. I didn't know what that even meant. So I think that those types of environments it's because the company culture has that environment.

Speaker 3:

And if you're going to develop a company culture built on competition and on cutthroat and who wins and who loses, that's exactly what you're going to get and if that's how you want to build it, I mean it's your company. But that's not the company I wanted to be in and so at the end I ended up leaving my corporate life because I couldn't find the right fit back in those days. But I was seeking it and I still think today, and I think a lot of people are realizing that you know you've got to find the right fit and then you will thrive as an employee. You will get advancement and you will enjoy what you're doing. And some people they love going into a cutthroat, competitive environment and they gravitate to those particular cultures because that's what they like to do. I don't want to work there. That's why we can't put everybody in a box. That's right.

Speaker 3:

We can't say that everybody's like that. I mean some people put on a suit and tie, go down to Wall Street and cut each other's throats, stab people in the back and they're having a ball. And it's just not me.

Speaker 1:

If I came to you as a new brand and say I don't say I don't check any boxes for any kind of DEI, I'm just a regular plain old white guy which I even understand, like that framing is probably problematic in some ways. But say I didn't even understand that you know. But say my heart is in the right place and for, not just for purely capitalistic, greed-based reasons. I do want to reach out to some of these communities that I might not personally have a lot in common with with. How might I foster those kinds of relationships in a way that is authentic despite not being authentic to me as an individual? How might I start doing that work?

Speaker 3:

I think it's a wonderful question, I mean with Women of the Vine and Spirits. You know, we have lots of different groups and affinity groups. We have people that sit in and they join these conversations for listening and learning and to understand. That is the best way to do it, you know, is to get in these conversations and really learn about things that you just may not have an understanding about. It's a group that you, you know, don't necessarily, like you said, feel like you authentically belong. I think those are absolute great ways.

Speaker 3:

I think for me, it's really important for people to listen in and understand the perspective of other people, and I also do like to say that when I talk about inclusion and equity and everything, I always use the example, jimmy, of like the tip of the iceberg. So what happens is, when you see me, you know as human beings, we make very fast judgments. It's part of our fight or flight to keep us safe. And you're looking at the color of my skin and my and the color of my hair, and you know this. Am I five feet tall or am I, you know, six, two or what am I wearing? All these things that we immediately make? What you're not seeing is. That's just the tip of the iceberg. What you're not seeing is everything below the water, and what you're not seeing is where did I grow up?

Speaker 3:

Maybe I grew up really impoverished. Maybe I grew up without an education. Maybe I had to go to work because my family was in peril. Maybe I didn't get to do things. Maybe I was very sick as a child. Maybe I had other issues. Maybe I'm neurodiverse. Maybe I grew up in other situations.

Speaker 3:

Those are the things that I wish people would understand. That is diversity to me. That's what diversity means to me. It is not all the things that is talked about. It's the fact that, as humans, we all come to problem solving and issues and things so differently because of what's below the water, and so when you hire people of all those different things, that's where your magic happens, because I don't know certain things. I didn't grow up in a fancy country club. I didn't grow up with very wealthy parents, so I only know what I know. I don't know what I don't know. So I want to surround myself with people that grew up and has things below the waterline and I want to bubble them up and find their superpowers. So that's how I like to describe it.

Speaker 1:

We're going to go to our fun final question here, and that question is what is your favorite cocktail? Now I listened back to your answer in episode 11 when you were first on, and your answer there was the paper plane. Is that still your answer or have you changed?

Speaker 3:

You know I know it sounds lame I don't have a favorite.

Speaker 3:

It's what I'm in the mood for and what the setting is, and I think I have a favorite based on my mood and the setting. So like it's July and I'm outside and I'm on an Aperol spritz and it's so pretty and it looks great and it's fun, or I'm by a pool and I'm going to have an RTD because I can't have glass, or I'm in a fancy cocktail place like Cassie and I want the full-blown mixology thing going on, and a lot of times I'm also a very purist of just vodka and soda. So that's kind of like, okay, I don't want too many calories, but I kind of want something refreshing. So, yeah, I think it really depends. So if I have to answer now, I just say I'm outside and it's really cool, and when I sip an Aperol Spritz it brings me back to fond memories of being at Vin Italy and being in Verona and stuff. So, again, cocktails, it's like time travel for me. It kind of takes me back to some of my happy places. So that's why it depends on where I am.

Speaker 1:

That's lovely and very poetic. Love that answer. Thank you so much as always for stopping by. For listeners who want to check out more, womenofthevinecom is the website for Women of the Vine and Spirits. There's also diversepoweredbrandscom. We'll put links to all of that and more in the show notes so that you can follow up. Deborah Brenner, thank you for stopping by again.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

And thank you listeners for joining us on the MHW Mark podcast and thanks again to Cassidy Poe for joining me and hosting.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me again, Jimmy. It was a fun time.

Speaker 1:

This podcast is produced by me, Jimmy Moreland, with booking and planning support by Cassidy Poe and Bridget McCabe. It's presented by MHW. Find out more at mhwltdcom or connect with MHW on LinkedIn. Lend us a hand by subscribing, rating and reviewing this podcast wherever you listen. We'll be back in your feed in two weeks. We'll see you then. Cheers, Bye.