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Leaving the Research Loop w/ Michelle Weil | Ep 57

• Beth Kendall MA, FNTP • Episode 57

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Stuck in the research loop with insomnia?

You’re not alone.

When sleep becomes unpredictable, researching feels like the next best thing to do. Because at least you're doing something… right?

But what if that something is quietly reinforcing the very problem you’re trying to solve?

In this episode, Beth and Michelle talk about why it’s so easy to get trapped in the research loop, and why it’s so hard to get out.

Listen as we explore:

  • Why researching creates the illusion of safety
  • How it keeps us stuck in fear instead of freedom
  • Why true recovery begins when you stop searching for it

If you’ve been operating from the belief that more knowledge equals more sleep, this conversation will gently challenge that idea—and invite you into a new one.

Enjoy! 🧡

Previous Episodes with Michelle:

Ep. 7: The Lighter Side of Insomnia
Ep 48. Belief or Behavior: Which Comes First? w/ Michelle Weil

Michelle’s Website: https://hopefulmind.com/


Connect with Beth:

 👉  Instagram 


Work with Beth:

👉   Learn About the Mind. Body. Sleep. Mentorship
👉   Start the Free Insomnia Course Here


Full Show Notes & Transcription HERE.


About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP: 

For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.


© 2023 - 2025 Beth Kendall

DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurances as to any particular outcome.


Mind. Body. Sleep.® with Beth Kendall is your trusted source for holistic insomnia recovery, blending neuroplasticity, nervous system health, and mind-body coaching to help you finally sleep again.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for anyone out there who wants to understand and recover from insomnia using a holistic perspective. I'm Beth Kendall, your host. Let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Mind Body Sleep Podcast. My name is Beth. I'm a sleep coach for people with insomnia. And I am super happy to be joined once again by another sleep coach who also just happens to be one of my closest friends. Her name is Michelle Vay. Welcome, Michelle. Hi, and thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be back. Well, I'm so glad you're back. And for any of the listeners out there who aren't familiar with Michelle, this is, is it the third time? I think it's the third. I think maybe fourth. Might be fourth. She's been on the pod. And if you haven't listened to her other episodes, you absolutely must because they're amazing. I'll link those up in the show notes. But Michelle and I are always talking about all the podcasts that we could do together because we talk pretty much every day. And I feel so fortunate to have that friend in my life that you can bounce the same idea off a thousand different ways. And you know, it just never gets old. But we were talking about the role of researching when you have insomnia. And I think it's safe to say that many, if not most of us who run into the experience of insomnia are pretty good researchers. So, Michelle, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off by telling us first a bit about you and how the role of researching played out in your experience of insomnia. But first, I have to say, I wasn't sure if I was going to bring this up, but I'm thinking to your message that you left right before we got on the Zoom call. And I think there's something that you want the world to know about watermelon. Ah well, which part, Beth? Maybe we could just have a quick little mini pod on everything we've learned about watermelon. Folks, we are having a watermelon summer. And the way this all played out is I finally, in my 50s, got an adult chef's knife. Like a really, like I'm really finely adulting when you get the real knife. And this led to watermelon is my all-time favorite food, but I don't like chopping the watermelon. And so my boyfriend got me this beautiful knife, and we learned all about knives and how to hold them and what to look for, and it was fascinating. And he loves the process of chopping watermelon, and this has created a daily watermelon experience in my summer. So I was telling Michelle about this, like this something called black diamond watermelons. And I know you don't have them in Canada, Michelle. I'm so sorry for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Wait, wait, we might. I just haven't found one yet. It might not be the season. I think you have to wait till the end of season. So I have not given up. Okay, good. I might actually have to quote research that on the You might. I we may have to research the black. I've already done a little bit of research, but I will have to dive back in.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so apropos. But yeah, so I was telling Michelle it kind of opened up with this black diamond watermelon. And she got to thinking, you know, life, like, why wouldn't we have watermelon all summer? And the ripple effect of this watermelon story has like, you know, my parents have now had nonstop watermelon. The minute they finish one, they go out and get another one, and they're only like three dollars down in Arizona, these giant watermelons. And so, Michelle, like tell the listeners quick and like a condensed version of what you were telling me earlier today because I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, first of all, I had watermelon right before jumping on this podcast, of course. So that was just it's just part of my day now. And I love that you have the adult knife. It's a very adult experience to have the good. I have a good knife as well. And it's it's I feel like such an adult using it. Yes. And I find cutting, I'm the watermelon cutter in our house, and I find it very satisfying to cut up a watermelon. Feels very productive. And we were talking about how to find a good one. Yeah. How to find a good one. And this is something that I had been researching. And it goes exactly. And you know what? Proud, very proud of researching and all the things. And I found out something new yesterday about picking out a good watermelon that I was very excited to tell you about because I didn't know if you knew and you didn't. So this is all very life-changing. But we were talking about looking for a watermelon with a certain weight or density. Like it looks, if it looks small, but it's kind of heavy, that's a good sign. Yeah. That yellow patch, you want that. That's good. Don't shy away from that. That can mean it's a sweet watermelon. And then what I learned yesterday was the ends, they have a stem, and then there's this little, I don't know what to call it. I was calling it a nubbin. Yeah. The nubbin on the other side. You want to look for the smallest nubbin possible because that means it was on the vine longer. It's sweeter. So I'm excited to take all this research and go out and see if I can optimize and find absolutely the best watermelon that I can possibly find. And I'm excited because I'm probably gonna go out possibly after this podcast to go watermelon shopping. I love it. It's that important. It's become that important in my household to have yellow melon.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know, I had no idea about the stem, like looking for the stem that way. And I just have to add, because my dad told me this when I was down there last week, that with the yellow, you have to look for it to be buttery yellow. Yes, yes, that is the key word.

SPEAKER_00:

So glad you said that. I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you want to look for a buttery yellow. It's important. Yeah, yeah, because it means that it's been, it wasn't picked too early. It's been on the ground long enough to ripen. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So it's like this, it's very counterintuitive because if you see a watermelon and it actually looks, let's say, very pretty, just green, you might want to get it, but you really want to look for that buttery yellow spot. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Want to look for the ugly watermelon. Exactly. It looks a little uglier, but it's gonna taste better. And then we could do, I mean, again, we could go on for a long time. We each have different cutting systems.

SPEAKER_01:

Just do a podcast on watermelons with every for how much time we have devoted this summer to talking about watermelons, because we go into how to cut the watermelon. Yeah, there's different ways.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know what? I think there's a right way. I'm just gonna say we could have a whole debate about that. Huge debates, totally.

SPEAKER_01:

So, I mean, I think this is a like the perfect segue into this topic of researching. So, okay, so back to you and tell us about you and what researching looked like for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So just like Beth, I'm a sleep coach as well. And I struggled with really severe insomnia for about five years before recovering and coming into the coaching space. And when we were first thinking about this topic, all the memories of how much of a researcher I really was started to come back to me. And before I really understood insomnia, and I was in these years of really just confusion and fear and not understanding what was going on. Why couldn't I sleep? Why did I have so many symptoms? Why was I constantly anxious? And I just felt like my brain and body was no longer my own. I didn't understand anything. So during those years, I was really constantly in a research loop of some kind. Now the topics would change. I might stay on a topic for even more than a year at a time. I was, I mean, I was an avid researcher. I think I could have been paid to be a researcher during this time. That's how in depth I could even take courses. And, you know, I would spend so much time reading papers and Googling and books. I mean, you name it. I was deep into research mode for years and years at a time. I was trying to sort of turn over every rock and look under it. Could this be it? Could this be how I was broken? What about this? What about, you know, every topic from hormones to dysautonomia to Parkinson's to, I mean, gosh, just I can't even list them all. Just all the things. And yeah, it was very consuming. Yeah. And it also felt at the time extremely necessary. Yes. Extremely felt like a life or death, you know, situation. And so that, and that I needed to research my way out of that life or death situation, essentially is what it felt like. So it felt like the most essential research that, you know, I could be doing. And I would never have known at the time that, you know, that, well, one, that it wasn't going to lead anywhere and that it was actually part of what was fueling this really hard experience that I was having.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Everything that you're saying, so very similar to my own experience. And of course, I mean, I had, you know, I had insomnia for decades. So my researching evolved. I mean, I remember as a young girl checking out books at the library and reading them and then turning them back in and checking them out again and reading them again. And then, of course, you know, my researching skills evolved over the eras with the introduction of Google, which honestly just 10xed everything.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my goodness. I'm trying to, I have such now, I have a moment of such empathy that your research period was also before Google. So you had to really earn it. You were really, you were a real researcher.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, how deeply this behavioral pattern became ingrained with my way of life. And, you know, of course, with the internet, you know, the researching capacity just got, you know, so much bigger. And I'm just, I'm really overloading my brain with just a tremendous amount of information. Yet I didn't understand how I could know so much about sleep, but still struggle with it more than anyone I knew. And it just would be this vicious cycle of, okay, well, I've got to learn more, I've got to learn more, I've got to learn more. And I think, you know, you really touched on it with that word confusion is because I didn't understand what was going on. And no one could really explain it to me. You know, the places, the people, the things I was doing to seek help weren't helping me. And so I think, you know, the allure of researching for me was that it made me feel like I was doing something. You know, it was like, you know, and it really did on some level become a bit of an addiction for me, but it it made me feel productive. It made me feel protective. You know, I couldn't find help anywhere else, but at least I could keep going online and try to find that peace that surely had to be out there somewhere, you know? And like I said, I think, you know, looking for that information or that peace in and of itself became an addiction. But, you know, how many times have we heard people say to us, you know, I kind of gave it one last ditch effort and I went online and that's when I found you. So it isn't like it's all bad. It's really not, because in some ways, you know, people, this is how they find us.

SPEAKER_00:

But plus we've just established that the watermelon research was very necessary. Look how fruitful. Look how fruitful the well done.

SPEAKER_01:

Well done. So so yeah, I mean, this is such a you know, just such a common thing that our folks run up against. But here's the thing, you know, let me ask you this, Michelle. When would you say that researching stops becoming helpful? Yeah. Or when does it become a bit of a trap?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think the first thing to know is that what we're describing is really like I like how you use that word, it becomes sort of addictive. You're in it, it feels like you're, it's like, well, at least I'm doing something, right? And it feels very necessary. And I think a lot of it really was a result of being in that for both of us and for so many people, being in this constant sort of fight or flight survival response, where the story of being in that survival response is I gotta fix it now or else. Right. And if if that's not even a conscious story, that's the feeling of being there is I I've got to fix it now or else, all the time, all the time sort of driving that research loop. Yep. And so where it becomes unhelpful is really when it becomes this very fear-driven process, right? Where it's an extension of that fear. And it's so tricky because in the moment it can feel a little better because, like what you just said, it feels like you're doing something. And the part of us that feels like we really want to fix and control will feel better by doing this. And so it does feel a little bit better, but it never actually gets us where we want to go. And it just becomes this very fear-driven process as opposed to what you mentioned before, like a learning-driven process, which is very, very different. And so thinking about well, what's actually driving this? Is this fear or is this a desire to learn or something that feels inspiring and joyful or something that can be enjoyed in some way? It's really a different underlying driver. What do you think? 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and I think the watermelon research is a perfect example of this. Like, this has not been a fear-driven research process, it is sheer interest. And how fascinating that there's these videos out there that show you how to like cut a watermelon in the most efficient way. So, yeah, I think it it goes back to intention, you know, as it so often does. And, you know, the ways that I see researching becoming a bit of a trap is when you're in something. So sometimes like people might be in the program and they know it's helping them. Yeah. But then they're looking, you know, just in case. You know what I mean? And so it's like this is helping, but what if I'm missing something out there? I've got to look just in case, you know? Very human, you know, very human. That's really common. That's a big one. It is, yeah. And I think another way it can become less helpful, and this is something you can definitely look for, is when you leave a span of research feeling more anxious instead of less. You know, that's that's sort of a clue that, okay, this is something you might want to visit. Or like back to my first point, you begin to start doubting what is helping you or what is working for you.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, like when research starts pulling you out of that, then you know, okay, this is not as helpful. This is becoming less helpful for me. And of course, the biggest one I think is that when researching starts pulling you out of trust with your own body, right? And we unconsciously start outsourcing our own inner knowingness to Google or just some sort of authority out there that we put more stock in than our own natural wisdom that we all hold inside. And I think for me, that's what I have to be very aware of, and also just that back to the intention of am I looking for something to fix me, you know, because the invisible message back to ourselves with that intention is that what we are or something within us is broken. Or is it strictly from that educational standpoint? I want to understand more about this, I want to understand my experience, I want to know more about watermelon. I know, you know, that's such a different, that is such a different driver than the fixing orientation.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh hugely. Yes, that's completely different. Yeah. But I think what you touched on is the most important piece of this is that it can take us away from our own inner knowing, our own trust, our our own intuition, and think that we have to outsource that somewhere externally. We're gonna find the answer out there if we just keep digging and keep digging and trying to fix. And it's like we're not looking in the one place we could actually find the most helpful information within ourselves. And even when we're in states of anxiety and we're feeling scared, we can still access our own inner knowing. It can feel a little bit harder with that sort of noise around it, but it's still there. And that's always gonna lead us somewhere so much more helpful than any amount of all this external research. Or, or, and would you agree that that is actually the thing that can point you in the direction of maybe research that could be helpful versus feeling like you have to do all the research about all the things?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Like I said, I think, you know, sometimes people research itself isn't good or bad. It is just like how we're using it and getting to know ourselves and how we're in relationship with this experience of insomnia and in relationship with sleep and starting to notice like how am I using this or what is the intention, or noticing like if it's a fear-driven process, like just like it's really learning about yourself, I think, you know. But the research in and of itself isn't bad or good. It's just how we're using it. And um sometimes it can be helpful. I mean, I think about how much, you know, we were talking about this before we hit record, how much information is out in the world right now, and it's it's so available and so at your fingertips. And I think that can be really like a really fun thing. But then it's also being able to recognize, oh, I'm going into overwhelm. I'm putting too much information into my head, and now it's time to take a break. And, you know, so there's pros and cons, and it's just about, you know, knowing yourself, knowing your intentions, and also I think recognizing what do you want for yourself on some level.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, absolutely. Do you think there can also be a part sometimes for people where going back into research or maybe even staying in that research loop can start to sometimes become about avoidance? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You found that? Yeah. Oh, definitely. I well, a couple of ways. Like one of the ways I was thinking about this is I think it's human nature to want to look for the easier path. You know, it's so much easier to find a supplement or, you know, some external thing. It's easier than changing yourself or doing, you know, or doing the inner work of meeting this fear, you know? Um so it's that's some of it. And then you were talking more about like what is the feeling? If you didn't do the research, what would be the feeling that would show up in the space of that, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. I just want to really agree with what you were saying because if it could be caused by, let's say, something else that we could take a pill for, for example, but then we wouldn't have to then be with it or we wouldn't have to do any inner work. Yep. Which is of course the hard stuff, right? So that avoidance piece. And then the same idea is if we didn't do that in the moment, what is the discomfort that's actually coming up? Yeah. And so that can be that can be such a useful exercise. And I do that with so many of my clients, whether they might be using researching as an avoidance or some sort of a reassurance seeking. Yeah. I might ask them to pause the next time they are drawn into, you know, the day of Googling, so to speak, just pause first and actually just notice what kind of discomfort is present for them. Like what is actually coming up that is driving this. And so much of the time it's fear. It's some kind, it's, you know, it's it's really fear. And if they're able to really work with the fear in the moment, a lot of the times the need for that research or that afternoon of Googling, it just falls away. Yeah. Yeah. It falls away completely. So that's something that can come up as well as even just noticing what is going on. And I think that's especially true when someone is already educated. They really already understand what's going on. So I'm not talking about, you know, people at the very beginning where they're just learning what's happening. It's a little bit later that you see this pattern a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think when you start, that's such a good, that's such a good point, talking about like how we can like work with this loop. And, you know, something that comes to mind is I think the first thing is just not turning it into a rule or a restriction, like something you shouldn't or can't do, or having it be like all or nothing. Because I think the minute we turn something into a rule or restriction, it's like automatically creates this fixation and you just want to do it more. Yeah. Which is why, you know, I don't diets, I just have never felt like really work. It just immediately creates this like total focus on it. Yes, exactly. I must have the cake now. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, it's not make or break, you know, it's it's more like, oh, I think what really helped me start to because, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, how our experiences were a little bit different in in that, you know, for a lot of people, once they understand what is going on with them, the mystery is solved, they have so much more clarity, the need to research just kind of goes by the wayside. And they don't they don't have that. And then there's like for me, my experience was more um that pattern itself. And maybe because I had it for so many decades, it was so deeply ingrained that that was just the default behavioral pattern that I would go to whenever I felt discomfort or I felt like I wanted some level of certainty or, you know, and so even when I understood insomnia and I, you know, I just kept the pattern but changed the topic. And so for me, it was like, how do I want to work with this pattern of feeling the need to hop on Google every time I feel some uncertainty or something doesn't make sense, or you know, something like that. And you know, I had to think about it more in a long-term fashion. Like, why would I want to start initiating some boundaries or start like looking at changing this pattern for myself? And it's like, what I really wanted was to not need to know the answer to everything. Um, to live in the flow of life and trust that, to trust myself and my ability to sleep, like start honing that level of trust that comes with moving in a world that's always in flow. You know, nothing is really permanent, everything flows, everything's changing. And not it just like, what would it be like to not have to control this all the time? So, like looking at like how did I want to be in relationship with my life as a long-term thing being more beneficial to me than the short-term assurance or whatever little thing I could find on the internet. And now I'm talking more about when I'm researching in a way that is from that intention of fixing or whatever I am or whatever my present circumstances aren't right or aren't good enough. Not so much the watermelon that we've been talking about. No, that's for me, like that was only good. Yeah. For me, the personality of researching can very easily swing into that direction. So, you know, I would notice like when I was getting out the laptop to avoid feeling something, just like you said, just starting to first thing was just noticing that. And then, you know, sometimes I would notice and I would research anyway, and that's fine. And sometimes I would decide, you know what, I'm gonna close the laptop lid, and just that action of closing the top of the just that, like it's an action. It feels nice to have an action closing the lid. And then I would sort of replace that with, you know, something else. Maybe it was a walk or cleaning the kitchen, getting the watermelon, whatever it is. Just replacing that behavior with with something else was that gentle nudge to move out of that pattern. And and from that, you know, I really like we've talked about, I wish I could actually get a little bit more of that researching in terms of, you know, some like I've had a weird eye thing coming up that I've you know, I've got a diagnosis. And listen to this diagnosis. It's called, I think it's convergence insufficiency. And I'm thinking, and it's not that uncommon, it's I'm not worried about it at all, but why do they have to throw words like insufficiency into diagnosis?

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I mean, is there like a worse word? Anything with the word they go out of their way, they're they go out of their way to create these label.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, okay, way to make, you know, you start worrying right off the bat. And I'm not worried. I just need to like figure out what kind of glasses I need to get and all that. It's no big deal. But what was I talking about, Michelle?

SPEAKER_00:

Pick it up, but you're so you're so now far removed, or I'm just so far. I'm so far removed pattern. Yeah, and I know you don't want to go back in any capacity other than for the watermelon. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I only really am interested in researching things that intrigue me or fascinate me or expand me or you know, help me be a better coach or just whatever. I'm not as interested in going down those fixing myself or my life roads anymore.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, and what a relief. Right. Yeah. It does. It frees up a lot of brain space for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it does. And it sounds like there was a time where you were finding a lot of safety in doing research. And then it sounded like there was this transition from finding more safety and trust in yourself. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think that's really what we're all seeking when we're in this research pattern is like a feeling of safety ultimately. I just want to feel I just want to feel safe and okay. Yeah. And that's, you know, and I think that leads into the idea of when you're wanting to shift it, if you're seeing this happening, to not be rigid, just like you were saying, to be really flexible with it. And I think that's important. And and I when I work with clients who are maybe using research as let's say reassurance seeking in the moment and were looking to shift that a little bit, yeah. It really reminded me of what you were saying, where I might encourage them to pause and be with the discomfort and then we'll work with that. But you know what? If they've done that for a little bit and they still want to research and Google, go for it. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. It's definitely not, it's not an all or nothing, doesn't exist. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen this approached so many different ways by my clients. Like they sort of come up with what feels supportive or doable to them. You know, I have had people just be like a total research detox, but then I've had, you know, maybe they say something like, I just stopped researching after a certain time of the day. Or, you know, however they want to introduce that. Yeah, it's all okay. You know, whatever you decide or however you want to do it, there's really no right or wrong way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. And be kind to yourself along the way because a lot of us have been in that research loop for a while. And it can feel it can feel a bit unsafe to step away from, but ultimately it's really about finding that trust and safety within ourselves. Yeah. And that's a bigger piece for sure. Love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, anything else that you can think of to add to our research conversation today?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I don't know. I think we covered everything I was thinking of, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, girl. It is always so wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you. Oh, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm always so excited to come on and chat anytime. Yeah. And please. Please do tell everyone where they can find you.

SPEAKER_01:

You can find me at hopefulmind.com. Awesome. Go check out her site. Get on Michelle's list. Do all the things. Thanks again, Michelle. And thank you for having me. It was so fun. It was fun. And to everyone out there listening, thanks for being with us today. This is the Mind Body Sleep Podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks for being here today. If you love what you heard on today's episode, don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe to the podcast. And if you need more support with your sleep, join me in the Mind Body Sleep Mentorship. This three month one on one program will transform your relationship with sleep so you can get back to living the life that you love free from the fear of not sleeping. Head on over to bethkendle.com for more details. I'll see you next time.