Mind. Body. Sleep.® - Retrain Your Brain. Restore Your Sleep. Reclaim Your Life.

From Fear to Freedom: Rik's Journey Out of Insomnia | Ep 60

• Beth Kendall MA, FNTP • Episode 60

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In this inspiring story, Rik shares how insomnia brought him to his knees — and how he slowly rewired fear into freedom. From panic attacks to the loneliness of sleepless nights, he describes what it was like to feel trapped in the cycle of anxiety and exhaustion.

But through patience, community, and a new understanding of the mind, Rik discovered something profound: freedom isn’t perfect sleep. It’s letting go of the fight.

“The wild thing is dealing with insomnia… it's just kind of letting it be—that's what fixes it.”

You’ll hear:

  • Why medical fixes (like CPAP, supplements, and strict rules) didn’t solve the struggle
  • The role of community in easing loneliness and breaking the cycle
  • How Rik learned that sleep doesn’t require calmness or perfection to happen
  • What it looks like to shift from fighting insomnia to accepting it
  • Why recovery is messy, non-linear, and still full of hope
  • The surprising ways progress shows up
  • How neuroplasticity helps rewire fear into freedom

If you’re struggling, Rik’s story is a powerful reminder that hope is real, recovery is possible, and you are not alone 🧡


Connect with Beth:

 👉  Instagram 


Work with Beth:

👉   Learn About the Mind. Body. Sleep. Mentorship
👉   Start the Free Insomnia Course Here


Full Show Notes & Transcription HERE.


About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP: 

For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.


© 2023 - 2025 Beth Kendall

DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurances as to any particular outcome.


Mind. Body. Sleep.® with Beth Kendall is your trusted source for holistic insomnia recovery, blending neuroplasticity, nervous system health, and mind-body coaching to help you finally sleep again.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for anyone out there who wants to understand and recover from insomnia using a holistic perspective. I'm Beth Kendall, your host. Let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the podcast. Today I am so glad to be doing another hope story because these are definitely the most listened to podcast episodes, and it's always such an honor to be able to sit down with someone that I've had the opportunity to work with and talk about them and their story. So today, Rick is joining us. A big hello and welcome to you, Rick.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thanks so much for coming on because I know you've already had a full workday today and you're you're probably starving because you didn't have a lot of time between getting home and and hopping on the call.

SPEAKER_00:

No, yeah, I didn't eat lunch today, but that's kind of normal at work. So I'll usually eat dinner around like 5:30 and then yeah, and then hang out until I go to bed.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, well, perfect. Okay, so let's just start kind of how I always start, if you wouldn't mind, just taking us back and telling us a little bit about how insomnia started for you and what that was like.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. I remember it started uh end of April, early uh May of last year. I got sick. Yeah. Just like a normal, your average head cold. And I remember like one night, you know, and whenever I was sick, what I would do back in the day was just take a ton of NyQuil and just pass out. And I remember like I would sleep great. And I remember for whatever reason that night, I kept waking up, it kept waking up, and it was like I was snoring myself awake. I'm like, this is weird. Like, okay, what's going on here? And it kept waking up, felt like I didn't get any sleep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Go to the doctor, and you know, she's like, hey, like, your blood pressure is a little high. And so then that's one more thing building on the on the anxiety. I'm like, oh, that's weird, okay. And I remember like went home that night, got some good sleep, and then went back to work. And remember it was a Friday, and I got home from work, or got home from hanging out with my buddies that Friday, and same thing. I kept like now it's more pronounced. Like I kept every 10 minutes it felt like snore myself awake. And like I remember it was like at some point four in the morning, and I think I had what was like a panic attack. I'd never I've always been kind of you know an anxious person, or what am I calling? My mom called me a worry wart. But I remember legit having like a feeling I was gonna throw up and I'm like sweating and just freaking out. I'm like, why can't I fall asleep? Like, what is happening here? Like, what is going on? So freaked out, ended up calling my mom at like 6 30. She's like, hey, what's going on? I kind of told her what happened, and she's like, okay, well, like, how are you feeling now? I'm like better, but still kind of like that was really weird. And she's like, Well, hey, like, take it easy today, kind of relax if you can, and just see what happens tonight. You know, maybe it's the cold affecting you. I'm like, okay. So then that night I passed out pretty hard. I was like, okay, cool, I'm cured, we're good to go here.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then the next day, it just stuck in my brain, I remember. And I was just kind of on edge all day. And then sure enough, that night we got ready to go to bed, and it felt like I didn't sleep all night. And then I was like, oh man, that's that was uh Sunday going into Monday. So I go into work Monday just like a zombie. My boss's like, you alright? I'm like, yeah, I couldn't sleep last night. And so then it's even more my brain, and then I go home that night. Don't sleep that night. I'm like, what is happening? Like this is this is insane. And then I think the next couple nights slept, I think, because my body was just so tired, slept, and it would just kind of be that pattern, and then it turned from like the snoring keeping me awake to I just felt like I wasn't gonna sleep at all, and I would just lie there and just the stress, and I had sweat, and I'm like, what is happening? Like, what is going on here? Yeah, and it just keeps getting like more and more ingrained in your brain, and then all of a sudden, you know, now you're just I started feeling like anxious, just anxious like all the time. So, first thing, like I feel it's so funny because I feel like you hear this across the board. First thing I do, go to the doctor.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like like you do. You're like, oh my god, yeah. The doctor, he can they can fix anything. What is wrong with me?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I go there and she's like, Yeah, you know, your blood pressure's a little high, you got this, you got that, but uh, I'm not gonna really write you anything for sleeping, you know, go. You should get a sleep study done. I'm a bigger guy, so definitely she's like, get a sleep study done, this, that, and the other. I'm like, okay. And then it's just persisting. And there's some nights I'd sleep, but I would wake up and feel like I didn't sleep at all, even though I'd got you know, six, seven hours, I would just be so on edge the next day. It was miserable.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Let me ask, I can't remember. Was prior to then this was it was like early 2024, you said. Yeah. So did you was snoring in the picture at all prior to that?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like I knew I snored, and I'd okay. I'd snole myself awake from time to time. Like, especially if I was sleeping on my back, I'd wake myself up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But like anything, like it wasn't in my brain, I didn't think of it. I was just like, okay, and then just roll over and I was fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And but now all of a sudden it's warmed itself into your brain. And I noticed leading up to this, I had started to kind of waking up at you sometime between 2:30 and 3.15 in the morning. Yeah. And it's like anything, the more you pay attention to it, the more it kind of sticks around. Yeah. And I was like, that's really weird. I need to like try to fix that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I mean, this is like, okay, so now you're moving into the medical model, you're going to the doc the doctor, which of course we all do. And then this the whole thing starts with the sleep studies and and all of that. And this is when the relationship with sleep really starts to change. Okay, so what happened? So how did it go after that?

SPEAKER_00:

So of course, it takes forever to get a sleep study. So finally I get, you know, I go in, I see the doctor, and it's we're at our institute out here in Scottsdale. Yeah. You know, nothing but really high marks. So I go in, I talk to the doctor, and he's like, okay, we're gonna do a sleep study. I'm like, but hey, like I obviously have sleep apnea. I'm gonna accept that, but like, why can't I fall asleep? And he's like, well, we'll put you on a CPAP and you'll fall asleep. And I'm like, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying here.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And, you know, to their credit, like, they don't they don't understand, right? And they're just there looking at the medical side of things. Right. He's like, no, no, once we get you your CPAP and your sleep study, you'll be fine. I'm like, okay, sure. All right, hopefully this fixes it. Yeah. So they'd give me the at-home sleep study. I take that, give it, yeah, you have horrible sleep apnea. Here you go, here's your new CPAP and your mask, which you know, I joked, I called it my fighter pilot mask because it covered my my nose and my mouth. Yeah. And so, like, now on top of somebody who already can't sleep, you're gonna add this to the mix. And if I move the wrong way, it breaks the seal and it's leaking air and just miserable. And I remember like at this time, like we always have you know, family vacation on the 4th of July at my parents' house, and I go out there, and my you know, my mom's like I feel my mom's like, what is wrong with you? And I'm telling her this, and you know, she's like, Well, you can you just try to relax? No, I can't try to relax. Like, yeah, all I can think about is how I can't sleep, and it just makes everything worse. And it was weird for me because I just remember being at work was almost a reprieve because I would be distracted there, but on the drive home, I'd start getting the feeling the pit of my stomach and just getting worked up and like what had once been my like sanctuary of you know, chill at my house was now like felt like a prison. And then, you know, I'd sit on my couch, you know, barely eat dinner because I was just so racked with anxiety. Yeah, and then as it got dark and then closer to bedtime, the anxiety would get worse.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'd get in my bed and I would just start the cold sweats, and I would be like, Well, maybe I'll sleep tonight. Maybe I won't. And it was absolutely miserable.

SPEAKER_01:

So you knew it wasn't sleep apnea. What did you think was going on at this time? Or was that part of what was so scary?

SPEAKER_00:

Is that so that was the scariest part? So then at that time, like at work, I'm starting to struggle. And I have my two bosses, uh Lex and Kedra, are fantastic. I love working for them. So they're trying to get me help through the through the police department and great support structure. So I'm talking to them and they look at my past and they're like, oh my God, like you know, you have some mild post-traumatic stress you have, you probably have anxiety, this, that. So I get into therapy, start talking to a therapist, then she sends me to uh a psychiatrist, he evaluates me, and he's like, you know, everyone says, like, yeah, you probably had looks like you have some generalized anxiety, uh, maybe a little post-traumatic stress in there. And I'm like, okay, like that makes sense. And they're like, you're not sleeping because you have anxiety, which is kind of true.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's you know, it's anxiety.

SPEAKER_02:

Not the full picture, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, not the full picture. So I'm like, okay, well, I just I just have to get rid of this anxiety. So I'm determined and I'm meditating every day, and I'm doing going on walks, and I'm doing this, because in my mind, if I get rid of this anxiety and push it out the door, my sleep will come right back. And it, as we all know, does not work that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I would do the worst thing too, like horrible. Like I'd be googling everything, going on Reddit, uh, like right out of the gate. I cut out coffee, I cut out this, I cut out that, I took this supplement, I didn't take that vitamin and going down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, that's that's all of us, you know. It's kind of like the low-hanging fruit, you know, it's kind of what you hear everywhere, and it's, you know, and then it and then when that doesn't really help, you're really nervous and scared and wondering, probably really wondering what in the hell is going on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because my entire life, I was always a light sleeper. I'd wake up really easily, but a great sleeper. Like I could fall asleep at the drop of a hat.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And if I wanted to, I mean, I could sleep until, you know, 10, 11, sometimes noon, depending on how tired I was.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So to all of a sudden have it, like I couldn't fall asleep. Like everyone says, like I felt like my brain was broken.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. Yeah. And you know what, Rick? That's not unusual for it to come on like that, you know, where somebody just never has an experience like that. And it can be just a single sleepless night, you know, and it's so understandable. So by now it's probably what summertime? And you're seeing yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we were in late August.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Wow. So you're going all summer with this. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then just on top of that, the heat out here in Arizona just makes everything even more unbearable. So I'm just uh hot, anxious, sweaty mess who hasn't slept at all.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And just super fun. Super fun. It's a good times. Yeah. And then you start doing the thing that I find typical for a lot of people is you stop going out with your friends, you stop doing stuff because you just you read everything, and it's this is a stimulus, and that's a stimulus, and that's going to keep you awake, and this is gonna keep you awake. And you're just like, oh my God, like don't look at your phone, don't watch TV, don't do this, don't do that. And you're trying all these things, and it's just making everything worse. I feel like the only thing I didn't do was CBTI, because kind of reading it, I'm like, oh my God, like you're gonna tell me, like, how am I supposed to time how long I've been in bed? I'm gonna be looking at my clock every 20 minutes. Like, there's no way that's gonna work for me. So at least I knew that was not gonna be a route for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you had that, you know, inner voice to say you just even by reading it, recognizing that that wouldn't be a good fit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was like, this is gonna be a disaster if I do this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So I remember, you know, there's so many things that come along with this experience, and there's so many ways your life gets like more and more limited, just like you said, like your world can get smaller and smaller because everything kind of becomes this landmine, you know. And I remember when we were talking and I asked you, you know, what was the hardest part, and you said it was the loneliness. Does that still feel true?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, absolutely, and that's why like I try to, you know, hop on the venture ship whenever I can and talk to people because I just remember that because none of my friends experience this. Yeah, none of my family have experienced this, and it's just as you sit there in your bed at 2 45 in the morning, just wrapped with anxiousness and wondering why you can't sleep, you feel so alone. Yeah, and it just it sucked. Like it was awful. Like it I've been to some some intense things in my life, and I came out the other side. I'm like, all right, okay. But this like brought me to my knees, and I like I remember talking to my bosses at work, just crying because you don't know what's wrong with you, and you seemingly can't fix this, and it just came so out of the blue, and it was it was brutal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Yes, I think a lot of people listening will completely relate to that, and I know I do as well. So, what finally brought you into this approach? I know that you were at the sleep coach school initially, and then you found your way to the mentorship. So you, you know, you already had such a a good foundation coming in. How did you even find it?

SPEAKER_00:

Was it just of all places Reddit? Oh, you did?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, well, there's sometimes Reddit, you know, it's Reddit to the rescue every once in a while.

SPEAKER_00:

And I found it on Reddit, yeah, and I was like, huh. And it was a guy that I think had been through the sleep coach school. Yeah, and he was like, hey, like this is what it is.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you definitely recognize some things and you're like, huh. And then I remember, so like I kind of noted, took a picture of that screenshot of that, and I'm like, all right, I'll look into that later. And then I remember seeing something, I forget how, like, it was through my Google searching, and it's it was this guy, and it was like it's this blog of some random guy, and he's like, Your sleep issues aren't because of that cup of coffee you had, your sleep issues isn't because you watch TV too late, your sleep issue isn't because of this, your sleep issue isn't because of that, your sleep issue is because you're anxious about sleep. And I was like, that kind of jives, and so I ended up joining the sleep coach school, and I was like, okay, cool. And it it it sounded so weird. Like, like, what do you mean, like hyper arousal? And what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01:

Like, what I was wondering if it like for you, if it if it resonated right away, or were you a little bit skeptical, or was it like, no, this makes total sense? Or definitely a little skeptical, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, because you're like, what are you talking about? Like, I have to unlearn being afraid of it, just didn't make sense to my analytical brain, you know. And then of course, I do the wrong thing and watch as many videos, like limit the unlock everything unlocks every week, but I just watch the video as fast as I can. Like thinking the watching the video, that's gonna fix everything.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And doing that, and then then would be in their uh Slack in their Slack channel, but kind of being standoffish at first, because you're not like uh okay, we'll we'll see, and not believe in it, and going through that and talking to people, and you're like, wow, and you just see while we are all uh, you know, insomnia is you know what is this saying?

SPEAKER_01:

Like you're unique, but you're insomnia. Insomnia isn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you see kind of the same thing across the board, and there's subtle differences like what triggers people, what doesn't, like you know, what each people I feel like we all have a thing we fixate on. Yep, and I was like, that's kind of interesting. That's interesting, all right, all right. And it started to make more sense, yeah. And my sleep incrementally got better. And I was like, oh, well, there you go. That's a bonus. Like, yeah, things aren't good necessarily great, but things are slightly better. Yeah, all right, like progress.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, it's always nice when you can get that little bit of of evidence. And you know, I think this is the good part about community, is that when you read other people's experience and you really see yourself in it, and you're like, wait a minute, like it isn't just me, you know, and I'm not completely alone in this. And there are actually a lot of other people that, you know, have very, very similar trajectory with insomnia, that can be a really good part of community.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, then suddenly for me, even those people were all over the United States, all over the globe basically, I didn't feel so alone.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And sometimes just going on and posting like what you're experiencing, just having a place to talk about it, and people listen and empathize with you, yeah, let alone like offering up like advice and you know, hey, look at this. It just it felt better. So like I stopped feeling as yeah, as isolated as I had felt, you know, in the worst of things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, it was a great feeling.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it is. And you know, it one of the things I love about the mentorship is just having people in all different stages of the recovery process because you know, people that are further down the road can share their perspective from where they are at. And it also is helpful to see people newer coming in because you can see the previous version of yourself in in. And it's you know, that also helps you uh further along. So that's great. And then how did you find me? Was it just through Sleep Coach School?

SPEAKER_00:

I think I've seen you seen something about you on there, and then you started popping into my Instagram feed, and I was like, oh, interesting, okay. And I started following you on Instagram and I was like, oh, I want to check out her podcast. Yeah. And I started like at episode one and talked about like where it all started from you. And I don't know, it's just a very calming vibe I got from listening to your podcast. Yeah. And like I definitely like I got all the material from the sleep coach school, but I definitely I feel like I rushed through it to like how fast can I consume this content and fix myself? And you know, like trying to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and be done with this whole thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I remember like reaching out to you on Instagram, you're like, hey, shoot me an email and kind of asking about your mentorship. And I remember one thing was like, and I'm reading your blog, and the thing that fascinated me was the neuroplasticity. And you're like, oh, like, because you basically you find that you've forged these pathways in your brain, and that's why it's acting the way it is, but you can also change it. Yes. You know, and that really interests me. And at the same time, uh, a buddy buddy of mine who was in the military, like he was in recovery programs for post-traumatics, a bunch of different things, and he too was talking about like the program he was in was a lot of neuroplasticity. And so I'm like, there's something to this. So I remember he kind of emailing you and asking you about what the mentorship was like, and you kind of telling me, and I was like, okay, cool, like I'm gonna do this because this this is what I've been looking for. Like, this is the good vibes to it. And I'm and I remember saying, I'm like, I want to be active as much as I can. Yeah, um, I want to learn as much as I can, but not try to rush through it and just kind of like as much as you can with insomnia. Enjoy the ride.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. And you know, I mean, like I said, you kind of came in with the education, but like being able, oh, and I wanted, yeah, I wanted to bring that up in our podcast because I remember you talking about your process and how you went through the mentorship. And yes, the neuroplasticity aspect to this I find to be such a hopeful angle, you know, and it hasn't even really this the science of neuroplasticity really hasn't even been around around that long, you know. I think it was just in the 50s. We just still thought, you know, your brain was just fixed and you had what you had and you couldn't change or unlearn anything, and which really doesn't make any sense because no, makes zero sense. I mean, how did we even really think that?

SPEAKER_02:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, so yeah, it was definitely, you know, my whole world, my thesis was all about that for a couple of years, and I lived in that, and I just I still to this day feel like there's a a feeling in my body that I get when I think about this aspect of being human. So I'm I'm so glad that resonated. And okay, so you're you're in the mentorship and you're taking your time this time, and you're actually even enjoying the process a little bit. Gasp, you know. Right. What can you share with us about your recovery journey? Which of course is, you know, almost always very up and down for everyone. But what were some of the struggles that you had and some of the understandings that maybe helped you through them?

SPEAKER_00:

Big struggle I had was being kind to yourself. You know, self-kindness was just tough after having like a rough night of sleep, not being like, because of my, you know, I think most of us, it's so similar, like these over-analytical brains, which in many aspects of your life are so beneficial to us, yeah, but in dealing with insomnia are your worst enemy.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you just could not stop thinking about sleep. And so for me, it was just practicing like being kind to myself and then having patience and understanding like this was gonna be a bumpy road. It is not a linear progression. I start here and I end here, and it's gonna take this many months, and I'll be cured. Yeah. So just like for me, I would just try to, I don't know, like make baby steps each day. You know, try to get, and you can't even say try to get, because I feel like when you start saying I'm gonna try to do this, I'm gonna do that. Like, and the the wild thing is like dealing with insomnia is like it's the opposite. It's just kind of letting it be, and that's what fixes it, not forcing like I'm gonna be better at sleeping. It doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, well said. That's a very, very key thing that you just mentioned right there.

SPEAKER_00:

And but it's trying to be uh more accepting, I guess, yeah, each day of where I was at. And you know, and it was what I remember taking a step back at one point in like March and looking back, I'm like, wow, like I've still got a ways to go, but look how far I've come. Like in just kind of being cognizant of law.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, you know, the the process is so interesting because it it sneaks up on you, you know. I mean, so often I'm working with people and they they're like, oh, I'm not getting better. I'm still, you know. But then I'll do just what you you said is think back, you know, think back to six months ago or a year ago, and that's how they can see how how far they've come.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and that's you just gotta look at that. And it's so hard just to take it one day at a time, though, because you because all you want is just to sleep well and feel better and not be anxious, especially those those early days where I mean I would be, I'd get up in the morning and shower to go to work feeling like I hadn't slept at all. When in reality you had, you know, I had I know I had slept at least a little bit, but I'd be shaking in the shower just from the anxiety of everything. And it was it was a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And how like how did recovery start showing up first for you then? Do you think?

SPEAKER_00:

Would you say for me, like one of the big things was that last year we went to training and I didn't know how I was gonna make it through this training at work, and I did, and I was like, okay, cool, so I can do this, like, all right, and then just I remember what was so confusing to me is like there'd be nights where I slept well, I'd wake up feeling anxious, but then there'd be nights where I didn't sleep well, and I would wake up feeling calm, and I'm like, uh. So it's not all tied to how well I do sleep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I think too like learning how resilient you are, yeah, and how you can function and sometimes even thrive despite lack of sleep.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's not fun and it's not easy, but you can still do it and be like, okay, like I can handle this. It sucks and it's awful. And then, you know, there's some days where you have you hit by a pretty gnarly speed bumper if you and you feel like you're back at square one, but realizing like no, you you're not back at square one, it just kind of feels that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. I think your brain will just tell you that automatically. You just almost have to assume it's just gonna, it's just gonna come, you know, say all those things, and that's that's really pretty normal. Pretty normal. Yeah. And did you notice like your reactions starting to change if you did have a bad night, you know, less freak out mode, maybe?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, absolutely. And like one thing I started to do, like, so I started, you know, I remember finally at some point, like well, I think I was in that training, and I was the first night we got there, we were in Arkansas for training, didn't sleep well at all. Yeah, and I remember I was with my two co-workers and like we're gonna get coffee. And at that point, I would coffee was so taboo, oh, it'd make me not sleep. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have a coffee. And I just remember it kind of like almost a calming effect. And so finally I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna live my life. And like, this sucks, yeah, but I'm gonna live my life in, you know, like if I had a bad night's sleep, like, hey, maybe I'll get an extra shot of espresso in there, like and really help myself out. And it was so funny because like those nights or those days where I'd have extra caffeine or drink too much caffeine because I just didn't care. I was like, whatever, it's gonna whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. And then wow, you you end up sleeping pretty well that night, and you're like, oh, this is so weird.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that about your coffee, is life's too short to give up the coffee.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, 100%. That was like one of the worst mistakes I made was not drinking coffee for months. I know you're already suffering. I wouldn't do this to myself.

SPEAKER_01:

I know, and it really has nothing to do with the coffee, you know, and you're already you're already suffering, and then to take away your coffee is just brutal.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I just remember too, like it was the coffee, and then realizing that I could watch TV in bed and it wouldn't give me insomnia.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And once I kind of doing that and living basically living your life again, as hard as it is, yeah, it's you know, step by step, day by day. For me, the sleep improved first. So then I was left with a lot of anxiety.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it was a mix of anxiety. I think I, you know, like I said, I'm glad I went to therapy for anxiety, but a lot of it was anxiety related to sleep. And then slowly that started to dissipate. You know, I wouldn't be as anxious, or I would, you know, I could kind of calm down before bed. And I was like, huh. And you know, slow but slowly thinking less about sleep. So I mean it, I'm sure it was the same for you, just day after day, just all consuming, like, you know, yeah at work, you know, something would be fine. And then I would think, oh my god, how am I gonna sleep tonight? Well, if I don't sleep well tonight, how am I gonna sleep tomorrow? I'm on call tomorrow, so I gotta sleep well tonight. And just it was crazy, like how much it can occupy your brain.

SPEAKER_01:

It consumed my whole life. I mean, it was just every single thought or decision or everything I did in life was put through that filter of, but how is this gonna affect my sleep? You know, and now it's like I don't, I just don't ever think that anymore. And I think that is more meaningful to me than better sleep, to be honest. Yes, you know, being free of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, the free of the worry. Because you just and whatever happens, happens. And I think you know, one thing that you and Richard that's great is like some nights, sometimes a bad night's sleep is just a bad night's sleep. Yeah. Like you're and I and I think back like you know, before, especially like when I had something stressful going on the next day, like, yeah, I would sleep terribly, waking up all the time, you know, tossing and turning, but like then you know, through insomnia, you just get so hyper focused on that. And the more you focus on it, the worse you make it. And it's such a weird thing that you just have to sit there and not be at peace, but just sit there with your insomnia and your anxiety, you know, in the middle of the night and tell your like tell yourself I'm okay. Yeah, I'm safe. When I and that's the one thing with this, like I had never talked to myself before, at least externally. I talked to myself on the inside, but like I'd sit there in bed and be like, you're gonna be fine. Yeah, you're okay, you're safe, and just reassure myself. And weirdly enough, you do it enough times and it starts to work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, your brain starts believing you. It's like, okay, maybe there, maybe he really is okay. Yeah, maybe there's something like that. Maybe I can let down the guard now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it's just such a and I remember like you know, listen to your podcast and you just think about it. Yeah, like if for as evolved as we are, our brain is still an animal brain.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, something has triggered the alarm and you're brain can't stop focusing on it because it's so, you know, worried by this thing and puts your puts you in guard mode and that's why you can't sleep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I mean we are consciously so much further ahead than the unconscious, you know, lizard brain in this process. And you know, I always think you almost have to take the unconscious mind by the hand, like it's a small child, and just show it over and over that everything is okay. And really realize yourself like, okay, this doesn't feel okay, but I actually looking around, I I actually am okay. And work and just working with with your brain on it and it it will eventually get on board. It just takes time and and repetition and a lot of patience.

SPEAKER_00:

A lot of yeah a lot of patience. And for me it was interesting because my insomnia would like morph into different things. So it originally started with the snoring and and you know not being able to fall asleep.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then you kind of forget it kind of forgets about that. And it's like what if I do this to him and then you get all anxious about that. Yep. And then you kind of relax about that. And then it's like what if I try that like there's a period of time like so I've always been afraid of heights never a big fan and I started having like these dreams about like you know being on super high things or potentially falling off and like I'd wake up and I'd be so freaked out and I couldn't fall back asleep.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm like what is happening well that's really that's a very interesting like that is your mind trying to get your attention isn't that fascinating.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It was wild.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I remember listening on your podcast and you're saying isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so now I'm like isn't that interesting that my brain is now doing this to me. Yeah. And it's just I feel like it's basically like unpacking all the things with sleep that you're afraid of and showing your brain that you're okay with all these things like okay I'm okay with snoring myself awake. I'm okay with sitting in the bed and nodding off a bunch of times but not falling into true sleep. Yeah I'm okay sitting here not sleeping at all tonight. I'm okay with waking up at three in the morning and not falling back asleep.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Just having to come to grips, having to talk to yourself and be like it's gonna be okay. Like no matter what the night throws at me, my brain throws at me, I'll be okay and I'll be safe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah and that is how we show our brain and it is a you know acceptance is probably the secret weapon in all of this and and and just understanding what is actually happening and that it is just a conditioned arousal and and a fear in the mind and we can develop fears about so many things in life. And for us it just happened to be around not sleeping. And you know just going back a little bit I wanted to to mention how, you know, for you it's in progress started showing up in sleep first, but it can be the opposite. So where you still had anxiety showing up but sleep was better sometimes the anxiety gets less or the fear comes down but sleep kind of you know comes later. But what I think is is so great about what you shared is that it shows you that anxiety and hyperarousal doesn't have to be gone in order to sleep.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh 100% and I think one of my big one of my big nights with that was I it been super stressful at work and I was really anxious and you know I'm coming home from work late and I'm just all spun up with a bunch of things and I'm like there is no way I'm gonna sleep tonight. Yeah. Like I was kind of okay. I'm like it just is what it is like it's gonna be a resting yeah and I you know get home kick off my shoes grab a shower real quick hop into bed turn the TV on just anticipating like I'm gonna be up all night or and I don't even I don't even think I got through like the credits of whatever show I was watching. Yeah and the next thing I know my alarm's going off and I'm like what just happened I was like and it's crazy yeah because as anxious as I was I was still able to sleep. Right. But then I would have occasionally I'd have the opposite be true like I'd get into bed and like oh what a great day and just so relaxed and chilled out then I'd kind of nod off and my brain would start scanning and I'm like oh cool I don't feel anxious but it's gonna be one of those nights and it that's just a weird frustrating thing dealing like your brain like you don't feel as anxious but your brain is still in the back you know it's still slightly on hyper alert mode and it's like oh I don't know if it's quite safe to let you sleep yet.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know it's almost like you I think the isn't that interesting approach was so helpful for me because it it just took me out of because there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason in all of this. You know it is just very kind of messy and all over the map and that's pretty standard. But trying to even like pin it to what you did or didn't do or find the pattern or find the thing and it's sort of like giving up all of that is the recovery process. It's just kind of just like maybe I do maybe I don't you know and just and giving up on all all of the trying to figure it out and that's what takes us out of the you know out of the fight out of the struggle out of the figuring it out mode basically and it's so hard because like that's what my whole life has been exactly that's what makes you so good at your job. Yeah exactly I know yeah I know I I hear you I hear you and I was gonna ask too before I forget when I did a post way back it's been a while about the best way to use the mentorship and you know as always you so generously chimed in and talked about how you moved through it. And you know since you talked about that I've been so curious to hear how people use the mentorship and use the resources because there's you know there's really no right way and everyone takes different things from the program. But what was your process and and did it change at all over over time?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes it did. So like I said when I first did a sleep coach school was you know learn this watch these videos as fast as possible. Yeah this will fix my anxiety. And then when I joined the mentorship I was like I really want to absorb this so I limit myself I would only watch one video a day. I would allow myself to watch it as many times as I wanted to kind of like let it sink in sometimes I would just sit there and play it a couple times and then you know I would go on to the mentorship and ask questions. And then what I would do like so every night I try to walk I find like it just is it's just good for me. Like it's not going to make me sleep I learned that like it will not make me sleep. It won't take away my anxiety but it's just something I'd like to do and just kind of like help not even wind down but just a good ending to my day. And the first part of my walks would always be I'd listen to one episode of your podcast. And I was like I'm gonna start at the beginning and then you know go all the way up to present. And then there would be certain episodes that would really kind of resonate with me and I would mark those down and like and it's very weird like I would do it like if I had a rough day I'd be like all right I'm gonna go on my walk and I'd listen to one of your podcasts and it you know after a while I felt like it was kind of like okay like this is all part of the process.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know like this is all part of the process. It's not fun. It's not necessarily short it's not linear but this is where we're at and just kind of like listen to you talk and go over different parts or even like sometimes I would be like okay this is what I'm experiencing right now. I'm gonna speed bump. So I'd try to find speed bump episodes yeah and listen to that and be like okay I can't try to get out of this because that's not how this works. I have to be okay with being in this and then eventually it'll kind of you know work through it.

SPEAKER_01:

And and now here you are on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

So you've got full circle I love yeah I never thought that I'd be here and then one thing I kind of promised myself was if I could ever get through this I would be as helpful to other people as possible because we talked about earlier man is it lonely. Yes and you know you see the people that just join up and you see what they're going through and you think back to those days and it's just it's brutal and I'm lucky that you know I'm not not I'm not married don't have kids so all I had to worry about is myself. So people that are you know worrying about their families and their kids and all this stuff I'm like man I just had to worry about myself through this and that was all that was a mess unto itself let alone having to raise kids be uh be in a partnership like oof that's a lot so I just want to be there for people and kind of be like hey man like there is hope like it's not going to be as quick as you want it to be but there is hope.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes and you have been so generous in the community and you know you're kind of one of those people that gets out of the fire and goes back to help and it's just been such a wonderful thing to to watch as a coach. And so how is life now? You know I I I remember when we talked that you said you love your weekends and I I loved how much you love your weekends. Yeah but you know anything else that you want to share about how life is now in general?

SPEAKER_00:

Life is pretty good. Work is stressful. I think that's just gonna be par for the course working at the police department. My weekends are great. This it's wild like how much this helped me in several aspects of my life like learning just to be okay with things like in sitting with things is like you know a part of this too was tied to anxiety and learning like hey I'm just gonna I remember talking to my uh psychiatrist and he's like Rick I hate to tell you but you're gonna be anxious in your life like it's a human emotion. You can't make that go away yeah you just have to accept it and you know he was like the harder you push it away the more it's gonna stick around yeah and you're like oh and it's interesting like uh your latest episode about like insomnia coming back yeah and necessarily for me it's not you know sometimes it you know I'll have a rough night's sleep but sometimes it's it it's weird like hearing a song or like seeing something that reminds me of when I was in the worst part of it and like you can feel those emotions come like rushing back and like sometimes my hair will you know my hair on my arms will stand up and I'll or get cold sweats for a minute because you just think back on like your tough tough struggles and you kind of have to talk to your brain like hey but that's where you see like those neural pathways that are formed like this makes you think of this time which makes which just you know heightens that you know that stress and that anxiety like holy moly and you really truly realize how strong your brain can be yeah and that might happen for a while and I think you know there is a a bit of a when you come out of something like this it it's processing some grief.

SPEAKER_01:

You know it's processing like what you went through. And you know that can that can take some time.

SPEAKER_00:

I just remember thinking like you know through a lot of this like you start identifying yourself as someone with some insomnia and you know like it can become your identity and it's you know and like we talked about like you literally focus your whole days on it and it shouldn't be that way like you you know that's the that's what just makes it worse and you kind of just have to like let it run its course and it can be so so hard but slowly slowly it goes away slowly you find yourself thinking about it less and less yeah and you know it'll come back every once in a while and you think about it and you know you feel those the heebie jeebies as I call them and you're like oh man. Yeah and then even that'll but you have to be okay with feeling those emotions and you know I just try to focus focus on showing myself hey you you're okay like and it's okay to feel anxious about thinking about insomnia you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah it doesn't mean that anything has gone wrong. In fact it's a part of the healing you know it's a part of the process.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah yeah and so yeah it's it's pretty good like I don't know like I and then one thing too is like learning not to go in back to like thinking too much like what was my sleep like like I on my CPAP that I have it will track how much oh yeah you know how long I had it on for and this that I don't ever look at any of that stuff. Yeah on purpose because I don't want to go you know back down you know like I still practice for the most part the timeless method like I try to not check my phone after 10 o'clock. Yep. Um it's weird though like it's so funny for me because everyone's different like if I can if I fall asleep I can now wake up in the middle of the night and I can look at my clock and be like how much time do I have left yeah and be okay and then and then like I'll put on if I'm and then if I'm kind of struggling a bit I'll put on a TV show and you know don't even often make it through the first episode and then before I know it my alarm's going off again. So I think it's a lot of progress there. And then also too I don't know I'm now 44 years old and I talked to a lot of my buddies about this stuff because it's interesting to see like other people that have sleep struggle sleep issues you know because we all do but they don't let it it doesn't for them it doesn't turn into insomnia. Yeah they'll just be like oh man lately I've just been sleeping really terribly and like but they're not worried about it. And you're like oh well it's good that you don't worry about it because that's a whole nother a whole nother thing. And just knowing like as I've gotten older like my sleep isn't going to be the same now as when I was you know 20 years old. Like I'm you know like just I've changed my you know I'm up way earlier now than I was when I was younger. So I'm never gonna be able to sleep until 11 o'clock again. And that's okay. Like as long as I can get some good sleep you know anytime I get I get really weary anytime I see like oh do these hacks to improve your sleep and I'm like oh boy no thank you and people really harping on getting eight plus hours and it's like no that's that's not how that works.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I know that myth has caused so many problems. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

You know and no one even knows where the eight hours came from you know it's just gonna kind of pulled out of thin air yeah and I'll sleep like I probably sleep between each night six and around seven hours. Yeah and I feel better now than pre-insomnia when I was sleeping eight nine ten hours. I think so like just kind of peace of mind the CPAP I'm sure helps and just not stressing about it like most days I wake up and there's that initial like my alarm goes off at five every morning and I'm like but by the time I'm out of the shower I'm like all right let me get my coffee in and let's get after it. I'm feeling pretty good by then.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah yeah I often joke you know I'm so indifferent to sleep now that I I I wonder like do I need to think about it a little bit more because you know because I just don't you know I don't know I'm like almost like have I fallen have I gone to the sleep optimization category of people? Like I actually have become one of those people that needs to optimize my sleep I don't know but I'm just I'm so I'm so happy for you Rick and you know last question and it it's a bit different than the silver lighting question that I usually ask because you have been so generous of spirit what would you say to someone with insomnia who is you know still on the climb what would you like them to know?

SPEAKER_00:

Keep hope it's gonna get better. Keep hope and it's so tough in those dark hours of the morning it is so hard. Like I would just sit there and cry or want to cry sometimes but like keep hope and it will be better and just trust in the process too I guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah trust in the process because it will get you where you need to go and yeah that would be that would be my advice to people amazing I love that I can thank you enough for sharing and just honest being so honest about your experience and and like I said I'm so happy for you and I am truly grateful that I I had the chance to to work with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah it's been awesome like I will this is probably one of the most life changing things in my life yeah and it's pretty cool to come up the other side because it has an application kind of across the board in your life to just kind of learn to deal with super stressful and uncomfortable things. And I feel like my threshold for dealing with things through insomnia which I think was the was awful like is massively improved and it's made me better as a person. So that's kind of cool. That's a cool little side benefit but yeah thank you so much and just being for just being there for people and teaching us this it's so wild to me that like all these sleep doctors like this is so not on their radar and I don't understand how.

SPEAKER_01:

I know and someday we'll get to to so look back we'll we'll say well we were at the leading edge of all of this we knew how way back when we got forefront right yeah exactly so well said and for all of you out there listening thanks a lot for being with us and we will see you next time on the Mind Body Sleep podcast. Bye Rick bye have a good one you too thank you thanks for being here today if you love what you heard on today's episode don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe to the podcast and if you need more support with your sleep join me in the mind body sleep mentorship this three month one-on-one program will transform your relationship with sleep so you can get back to living the life that you love free from the fear of not sleeping head on over to bethkendle.com for more details I'll see you next time