104: Curiosity Creates Hospitality, Connection Beats Checklists

Guests don’t come to a full‑service restaurant for a transaction; they come hoping to feel something. We dig into how to deliver that feeling on purpose through connected hospitality, turning routine steps into genuine moments of care that guests remember long after the check drops.

We start by grounding everything in food, then layer in the human element that differentiates you in a crowded market. 

You’ll hear how:

• We reframed performance reviews into get‑to‑know‑you conversations.
• Why curiosity is a trained skill not a personality trait, 
• “Ping pong” questions replace scripts to create real dialogue.
• Growth requires humility, we unpack a one‑star review

If you’re ready to coach curiosity, hire for heart, and transform checklists into connections, press play. If the conversation sparks ideas, subscribe, share the episode with your team, and leave a quick review so more operators can find it. What’s the one question you’ll ask at your next table touch?

P.S. Ready to take your restaurant to the next level?

• Get the Independent Restaurant Framework that's helped countless owners build thriving multi-location brands. Grab your copy at https://www.IRFbook.com

Podcast Production: https://www.lconnorvoice.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Defining Connected Hospitality
• 2:20 Food As Foundation, Connection As Differentiator
• 4:55 Community, Staff, Guests, Plate: The Four Connections
• 7:50 Leadership Shift To Get-To-Know-You Reviews
• 10:50 Curiosity As A Coaching Value
• 14:00 Ping Pong Questions In Steps Of Service
• 17:30 Storytelling Over Ingredient Lists
• 20:40 Table Touches That Actually Connect
• 23:40 The Craig Hospital T‑Shirt Story
• 27:20 Training Curiosity With Practical “Ins”
• 30:10 Invitations: From Phone Calls To Reservations
• 33:00 Hiring For Why: Interview Guide Tactics
• 37:10 On‑The‑Spot Fit Tests And Red Flags
• 41:00 Time Management And Empowering Managers
• 44:30 Radical Candor, Standards, And Exits

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Concept or something that's that maybe feels familiar, that's been completely reimagined, or I try a new menu item that it has flavors or ingredients that I've never ever tasted before. And then that I get to sit down and have conversations with people like you who introduce who introduced me to a new concept called connected hospitality. And so this came up a lot when we were having coffee. And I'm super excited to dive into this with you today. So thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04: 0:30

Love it. Pumped to be here, enjoyed our prior conversations as well. Um, yeah, connected hospitality is kind of um redundant, right? I mean, hospitality is connection by its very definition, but um connected hospitality for Big Red F, it's it's one of our key values, and and you're creating memories with that type of interaction where you are truly connecting with someone, where you are having them feel seen, recognized, heard, whether that's in a corrective situation or more hopefully and likely a positive situation, um, but that they're uh recognized as present, right? And that is really what people go out to eat for. Um, you can get great food in a lot of places that don't require any sort of interaction, and sometimes you're craving that. So you're gonna roll to a quick service restaurant and get some pretty quality food and eat it in your car and hopefully not get it on your shirt on the way home. You know, so that's one experience, but the other that people come out to full service restaurants for, which is becoming more and more, I believe, differentiator in the market, is whether or not they feel like they made a meaningful connection with the food because of the story that's told by the plate, um, or the person who they had an interaction with that they have come to expect to be dismal or perfunctory or just service and not hospitality. So that connection is something that we try to attack from like 17 different angles. Um, and it's it's crucial and it's not automatic, and it has to be coached and it has to be valued, and and it's something that once you get a certain amount of momentum, it does kind of steamroll because you start to feel the vibes and the excitement and and you get high on the connection yourself. Um so it it's that's when the magic really starts to happen.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

I love it. As you're talking about it more and more and more, your energy's starting to speed up. Like you can tell that you're you are very connected to this topic. I love that. Was that you mentioned that this is in your core values? Has it been a I'm curious about your core values? Were they created at the very beginning of Big Red F? Have they changed over time?

SPEAKER_04: 2:39

They've changed over time, they have to change over time. You know, it's something that um I've been there for a lot of years, and it it uh is something that has to evolve because the business evolves. Um, and it is something that we've always been focused specifically on food. Food is, you know, with a chef-driven owned um restaurant group. Uh Dave was talking about it yesterday at our director's meeting, you know, just flat out. It's like the food is the most important thing because it really is. People come out for great food experiences and then it gets all of the bells and whistles surrounding that. Um, but food has always been one of the underpinning pieces. But yeah, this connected service probably in the last two to three years has really become something that we want to manifest in a different way and be intentional about because we've had some spectacular employees over the decades that we've been open where it's just how they're wired, right? And it's exciting to see um, you know, their natural gifts be displayed in that way, which they they could choose to showcase any place else in any other capacity. It's how it would um they would they would be rewarded in the same way. Um, but to choose to do it in the hospitality realm and to do it in relation to food and creating food memories and hospitality experiences, it's really cool. So, yeah, that but I would say it's always been a part of the core values, but um, it really is connection to our communities, connection to our staff, connection to our guests, connection to the plate, um, you know, are the things that we really focused on. If we wanted to say there were four sort of impromptu pillars, um, because the community piece has always been huge. We've always been, you know, a big uh and deeply involved in charitable organizations and and functions. And we've basically got about every month or two um some big event that we're doing to try to raise money for something. We had Towny Fest last weekend at Post Lafayette, and we've got High West Oyster Fest um coming up this fall, and there's just several others that that were always a huge feed that we do at Post Boulder now. It used to be a solo for the Imagine Foundation, where we're feeding, I don't know, 600, 700 people for Thanksgiving dinner. So there's there's a lot um that we get involved in. So that's connected to.

SPEAKER_00: 4:49

How does connection, I'm I'm curious about how connected hospitality kind of flows through the organization. Yeah, and you're talking a little bit about it in terms of community guest, um, but I'm I'm curious about the leadership. How does connected hospitality show up within your leadership team kind of from that top-down organization?

SPEAKER_04: 5:06

Well, I think it's something that we are really focusing on in the coming months, because we have this is one way it's manifesting. So we've got biannual reviews, right? It's something that you just you know do. And um they we've had great review seasons and we've had relatively rewarding review seasons. And the way that we have migrated it now is as opposed to it being a performance review, it's basically a uh a get to know you review. It's an opportunity for the staff to see their employees in a different way, where we're not worried about whether or not you're marking your tables correctly or whether or not you're on time. Like those are disciplinary issues, those are things that should happen every day in the moment, in the constant gentle pressure that is leadership and management and all the non-fun stuff. And so the reviews this time around are trying to create depth in the appreciation of who you are, having you be seen. I mean, hospit hospitality is is universal. We we treat our guests, we we treat our guests rather as we treat our staff. You know, that's a line item in the handbook. And it's something that we have to take to heart. It's hospitality to every delivery driver, it's hospitality to every uh maintenance worker, you know, it's grabbing a coke for the person that's dropping off the linen. Like there's all kinds of great things that can happen because it's a spirit of hospitality. And so in those reviews that starts at the top and rolls down, it's more of an opportunity to say, hey, we've got 20 minutes, 30 minutes together. I want to come out of this knowing you better.

SPEAKER_00: 6:34

Before we dive deeper into today's topic, I want to share something that's been a game changer for the restaurant owners I work with. You know how we've been talking about building stronger foundations for your restaurant? Well, I've taken everything I teach my coaching clients about creating core values, mission statements, and long-term vision, and I've turned it into three hands-on online courses. These aren't your typical watch and forget courses. Each one can walk you through using AI tools like Chat GPT to create the foundational element every successful restaurant needs. We're talking about core values that actually guide your hiring decisions, mission statements your team can rally behind, and a three-year vision that turns your growth from reactive to strategic. The best part is each course is only$49, or you can grab all three for$99. That's less than what most restaurants spend on a single food delivery order. It'll give you the clarity to make better decisions for years to come. You can check them out at kristinmarvin.com slash courses. You can also text me directly in the show notes. There's a link at the top of the show if you want a special promo code to save an additional amount of money on any of the courses, including the bundle. Now let's get back to our conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 7:56

I want to come out of this understanding what burgers you up. That will allow me as a leader to motivate you in a different way because everybody's different. Um, and in the heat of the battle, we generally don't take that time. So we we try to intentionally um at this time of year really invest in that relationship because that's the type of curiosity, which has become a huge buzzword for us now. Um, the curiosity that is uh necessary to really caretake someone. If you don't know them, you you you can't help them grow and and help them be a better version of themselves, which really is leadership, is what we're all about.

SPEAKER_00: 8:34

Yeah. Is this a shift that you guys have been making in your performance reviews, or have you always done it this way?

SPEAKER_04: 8:40

It is a shift. It is a shift. So it's sort of the biannual reviews, the uh spring reviews are more a little bit more tied to performance, but they're still, you know, 360. Um, but in the fall, it's more like, hey, we're coming out of the busiest season, we're investing in the people that are not seasonal employees, the people that are sticking around and going to be with us for a while, and and um heading into a time where you know, well, let's say the holidays are still really busy, but um we can invest a little bit more time in the get-to-know you phase. And you know, that that um curiosity topic is something that we're really diving into deeply because you know, cure curiosity creates connection. If you don't ask the question, you can't get the answer. You won't even know what the concerns are. And so, all too often, especially in some of our workforces, which are you know relatively young, maybe it's their first hospitality job, you know, maybe they're a student and they only need this two days a week. Maybe they don't necessarily need the money, but you know, mom or dad said that they absolutely have to do this at least a couple days, whatever, like their level of investment might be different. Um, but that curiosity is humanity, you know. That is, I want to know you a little bit better, I want to know what you need out of me, I want to know what you expected about this evening, I want to know what your preconceived notions are, what this experience is supposed to be, yeah. Um, so that I can morph myself just a little bit to accommodate you. Um, and all too often, especially when you get into the steps of service and things, you know, I'm checking boxes. I'm just trying to get through the things that I was told by my boss, I gotta get through. Um if we do that, we are like a third of the way there.

SPEAKER_02: 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 10:16

Maybe that connection piece puts so much more meat on the bone as to what people are gonna walk out the door and go, wow, man, that was different. The food in those two experiences could be identical. Um and they would say, Man, the food was great. I'd go back there. Or man, the food was great. And that was an absolute poor memory. I'm never gonna forget that because of this happened or that happened, and there's all kinds of stories that that um equate to that connection and the way people utilize restaurants as the fabric in their lives that we maybe never know, and we certainly won't ever know if we don't ask the questions.

SPEAKER_00: 10:54

Yeah. Where is this um where's this focus of curiosity coming up in the business? Like why is this a focus for you now?

SPEAKER_04: 11:04

So one of the things it it partially comes out of honestly, it's born in the steps of service. So um uh we have something that we integrate into separate steps of service we call ping pong, right? So you're going to ask a question and then your response is going to be adjusted based upon what their answer is. And and it can be as simple as what do you like to drink? It's not sitting down and saying, Would you like anything to drink besides water? That's just like it's an absolute red flag. I know that your hair probably stood up on the back of your neck when I said that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:38

Yeah, I think I threw up a little bit in my mouth. Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

unknown: 11:41

Sorry.

SPEAKER_04: 11:42

So it that that's not asking a question. That's a statement of my effort level is low and don't ask me to do anything.

SPEAKER_01: 11:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 11:49

Right. Uh, and so asking the genuine question what do you like to drink? What is your favorite type of beverage? Have you ever had X, Y, or Z before? I know you're probably thinking margarita. Have everybody had a ever had mezcal before? Like just the simple pointed question, oh yeah, I've had me scaling it's absolutely terrible. I wouldn't dream of it. Okay, well, now we know, right? We have a starting point for this conversation. And so it is not a litany of ingredients that we're trying to get to with people, which I think is what a lot of um restaurants default to. Um, you know, it's got this beautiful coolie and it's got this amazing sauce, and it's got these potatoes, and it's got this protein, and it's cooked in this way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's it's a cooking show, you know, that we've all learned that presentation. Ours is the why behind it. You know, why is it something you're gonna love? What is the literally the vibe of the dish? What is this story that's being told? Oh, it's a super homey stew that's gonna make you feel like grandma's house, like a little bit more embellishment and eliciting that memory vibe as opposed to the, oh, well, I don't know what a shoshito pepper is. You know, it's like, oh, okay, well, if you ever had a roasted green chili or, or if you've ever had, you know, just you know, a Mexican green chili, it's not gonna be quite that, but there's a little bit of sweetness. There's, you know, it's it's not a list of ingredients because that is mechanical and that is unconnected and depends on, which is better than it's ever been, but depends on a certain level of food knowledge of the guest. Um, and if they don't have it, now they're feeling like they should know it, and that's not a position we want to put them in.

SPEAKER_01: 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 13:17

Um so it it is born out of portions of the steps of service, but it also is born out of um something I'm focused on um sort of as a uh a module of many of the work workings that I do with our leaders, because I sort of am in uh consultation role with a lot of our um leaders in the restaurants, specific to hospitality, things that we call hospitities. So, what is the opportunity for hospitality that you can create that connection? Um, and many of them, you know, it's a table touch, right? Which is again that ping pong. Um table touches can be super mundane and uninteresting and unspirited, and um really just checking a box again. And you get the person who comes by and puts their two fingers on the table and says, Thanks for everything. Sweet hope yet. And then they walk away and they didn't ask the question and you didn't give an answer and be like, Does that guy even work here? Yeah, I don't know who that was. Um so you know, us trying to find what is that in where we can build that connection and have that question asked. And you know, one of my favorite stories of recent was a manager who shared this with um all of us that they went to the table and there was a gentleman who was wearing a t-shirt, and the t-shirt was two stick figures, and one half of the t-shirt was a stick figure that was all sort of jumbled, like you'd taken a bunch of dice of stick figure body parts and then just throw it out on the table. And then another one that was a stick figure that looked proper. And they asked, What well, what is that all about? And it was a t-shirt for Craig Rehabilitation Hospital in Denver, which was close to one of the restaurants. Um, and so you know, just the curiosity of the question about the t-shirt led to this story. And he shared that his daughter had had a brain injury and that she had been in a coma for a long time, and that she was in rehabilitation at Craig Hospital, but that her daughter loved one of the dishes at the restaurants, and it had become a big part of their family, and he was dining by himself. So, again, it's another huge hospitality, as we would say, single diner often overlooked as an opportunity to make a friend, make a memory, make a connection because they're not there for anything but food and food, yeah, and food. They're not selling anything, they're not buying anything, they're not trying to impress anybody. So that connection is ripe. Um, but one of her daughter's favorite dishes was at the restaurant, so he shared a picture of the family gathered around to go food from the restaurant, from the post, it was one of the post restaurants from the post. Um, and just this huge smile. And the point that he made, which really struck me, was when you can't talk, because she was non-verbal at that point, when you can't talk, you can't communicate, delicious food is a tremendous source of community, connection, and enjoyment. It was something that they together could all share in.

unknown: 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:11

And all of that reveal and the deepening of that connection with that single guest, which is how we win person by person, was created by an innocent question about a cool teacher.

SPEAKER_02: 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:25

That's connection.

SPEAKER_02: 16:26

I love that.

SPEAKER_04: 16:26

That's that's where it gets born. And that's where we have the opportunity to say this is someone who has a story to tell. And if I don't invite the story, they're probably never gonna hear it.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yeah, I mean, I love what you're saying here about inviting the story. Um it's we know that more and more people are entering the industry with less and less experience. And that moment of just slowing down and taking a second to look at somebody's t-shirt and recognize that the again, this curiosity, this moment of curiosity that sparks for them to say, Hey, what's that all about? I like your t-shirt. What is that? How are you how are you teaching and training that among your hourly employees today?

SPEAKER_04: 17:12

Some of it, frankly, comes out of an allegory like what I just shared. You know, that's an impactful story that if you aren't jazzed about the opportunity that that creates from a humanity standpoint, this might not be the gig for you. Like that, that is the most um me, that that is a charge unlike any other charge. Um so what we're in in specific to to table touches, we're coaching, you know, what what are the ins? What are the bullet points of where your areas of opportunity are? Because some people need to be learning from a book. Some people hear that story and they think, well, I'm gonna ask every person about their t-shirt. Yeah, that's not exactly what we're coaching here. It's sure that's a start. Yeah, that's one of them. And if that works for you, that's cool, you know, but at least you're asking the question, you know, at least you're opening the the um dialogue. And sometimes, you know, you you get shut down. Sometimes people don't want to talk to you at all and they don't have any interest in it. And that's fine. And we're gonna read that, we're gonna move on for it from it. But um, you know, as we're coaching it in regards to specifically table touches, it's you know, what are those ins? You know, it can be something they're wearing, it can be something you overheard. It's perfectly okay to reveal the fact that you're an eavesdropper by uh profession. You know, there's there's a lot of comedy that can be shared with that. Um, and I think that so often um we get the the comment from our teams, and I know this is universally a challenge of um, well, yeah, no, I touched every table because I delivered food to that one and I cleared a spoon from that one, and I brought the IST to that one. And be like, no, no, no, no, no. This is like physically touching the table. That that's the guy with the two fingers who stops by and doesn't stay. You know, we want uh that connection to be deeper and there has to be a meaningful interaction. And I think, like I said before, it's one of those things that does require some hip pocket training, um, so that we're sort of modeling that behavior through our directors or in my role. Um, and then we're also affirming the great works that are done. So when we hear a story like this, that that is essentially that Craig Hotspital story is kind of like brand lore now, shared with everybody else, and they know that story and we'll revisit it from time to time. Um, because it illustrates exactly the power of what a tiny little step will be. You know, we you talk about I think curiosity invitations are two really important pieces. And um, you know, the important to accept an invitation when you receive it. Um there's nobody that's invited to something that doesn't feel better about themselves because they were invited. Thank you so much for the invitation. I mean, any of the parties or social gatherings or or invitations to a podcast, like to to have the invite it. Makes the person who's being invited feel great. And so we try to inject that too into something as simple as a phone call when a guest calls the restaurant. If that person gets off the phone and we haven't invited them to make a reservation, that might not be their purpose. But if we haven't extended that invitation, we are missing huge.

SPEAKER_02: 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:21

Hey, I'm checking to see if you have any specials. Hey, I'm wondering if you guys have a burger on the menu. You know, nobody calls the restaurant with those kinds of questions anymore, but if they're calling the restaurant, they probably don't have open table on their phone.

unknown: 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:33

And so as soon as we get them on the horn, can I make a reservation for you tomorrow night? I would love to make your reservation for you tomorrow night. Can I invite you to join us tomorrow night? Or are you thinking about tonight? What night are you thinking? So if we get off the phone without offering that invitation of a reservation, um, we're missing.

SPEAKER_00: 20:48

I I agree 110%. I don't call a lot of restaurants anymore, but I kind of want to now, just for fun to see who is willing to extend that invitation. I I call, I well, I won't tell the story, but I the last restaurant I called it was awful. Um I had to pull every piece of information out of the person I was on the phone with, um, which was just really torturous.

unknown: 21:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 21:10

Which speaks to that attitude of curiosity.

SPEAKER_00: 21:13

100%. Yeah, this person wasn't curious about anything.

unknown: 21:16

Nothing.

SPEAKER_04: 21:16

I'm curious about getting off the phone.

SPEAKER_00: 21:18

Getting off the phone. Yeah. Didn't that person did not see me as a guest?

unknown: 21:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 21:22

They saw me as somebody who was interrupting what they were doing during the shift.

SPEAKER_04: 21:26

Which was probably rolling silverware or something that something really was not that important.

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

Yeah. How are you identifying that curiosity, that willingness to to give an invitation, that connected hospitality? How are you identifying that in candidates during the interview process?

SPEAKER_04: 21:42

That's a great question. Um so one of our key tools there is uh interview guide. Um, and we've honed that a little bit over the years, but the the initial um question is why hospitality? Why are you in hospitality? Why is this your drive? Why is this your choice? And we refuse to let the res uh, I'm sorry, the interview go beyond that question if we aren't satisfied with the answer to that question.

SPEAKER_00: 22:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 22:09

Because the, you know, the three most common responses that you get are the money is good. I like the flexible schedule, and it's what I've always done. Those are three non-starters for us.

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

Okay. And tell me, tell me what happens if somebody gives that one of those answers.

SPEAKER_04: 22:23

So the ideal is if somebody said, well, the response should be uh the money is flexible. I'm sorry, the money's good, schedule flexible, it's what I've always done. Well, um, you deserve to be well compensated in whatever you choose to do. And so I'm gonna assume whatever job you work in, the money's gonna be good. Your schedule has to fit your life, and it has to fit your life inside and outside of whatever your employment choice is. And having done something for a long time doesn't necessarily mean you're really good at it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 22:49

So we reflect it back and say, okay, what hospitality. Well, I really like people. That's the other one that you hear a lot. I really like working with people. So, okay, well, you can work with people at Barnes and Noble, you can work with people at hospital, you can work with people um at Costco, you know, wherever you want to work, there's there's people everywhere. Why hospitality? And if they can't get there, our needs and your focuses aren't necessarily aligned. Thanks so much for joining us. If there isn't some sort of passion in there, yeah, of I love creating memories through food, I love whiskey, and I love tequila, and I love sharing my loves with other people. If there isn't this idea of I have a passion for the subject matter, which you would require in any role, right? Like if you're a lawyer, you love to read a lot, right? Like it's just seeing those libraries, right? Um, if you don't love to read, you're not gonna be a lawyer, amongst other things. But if you don't love food, if you don't love drink, if you don't love the idea of creating a hospitality-based memory, then you're not for us. And so we try to weed that out at the start. And there's not a lot of people that are able to fake that. Um, you know, and so that's the the first sort of steps, you know. We're and we're looking for uh social cues that would indicate that you love it. Level of smile, level of eye contact, um, you know, what are some of those physical body languages? Um, and then we will do in select situations sort of uh uh impromptu exercise. If we get through the the interview, we get to the end of it, and it's like, you know, it might be last night's special on a little sheet of paper. And I'm gonna give this to you, and I want you to take two or three minutes um to study that. And I want you to come and greet the table and greet the table as if you're my server. And generally we see two responses to that excitement or trepidation.

SPEAKER_02: 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 24:43

The excitement is, oh, sweet, yes, because they've done that, they know that. This is not a speed bump. I'm not requiring you to do something that's uncomfortable at all if you've done it so much. Um, or it's like, I don't know what these ingredients are, and I don't know what your steps of service are, and I don't know any of this, that, or the other. And like, okay, this is you might make it, but that's not what I'm hunting for.

SPEAKER_00: 25:02

You're not curious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:04

You you aren't willing to dive because this is a especially in this is I'm speaking almost specifically of um like front of house roles here, but in in this last example. Um, but if if you have trepidation about greeting a table, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01: 25:21

Right. Like you you're you're you're maybe support staff a bowl, but you've got to be curious about people.

SPEAKER_04: 25:27

You've got to be fascinated about asking, you know, you're the person at the grocery store. I can think of a guy at my local grocery store, Will, you know, friendliest guy on the planet. How's your day today? How things going? Yeah, I thought this. I mean, and he does it every 16 minutes, right? Or three and a half minutes. And it's the same thing. It's awesome because he's interested in people. He's not bored with it because he's excited about the response.

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:52

The response drives his energy.

SPEAKER_00: 25:53

Yeah, I just had this funny visual of somebody buying a car just to go sit in it, but they're never gonna drive it. Like, okay, I'm all excited about this car. Okay, and I'm never, you know, then I'm not gonna take it anywhere. I'm not gonna go enjoy the experience. Um, how do you I'm fascinated by love that you're using the interview guide. Sounds like your interview practices are very aligned with your core values. Um, I am fascinated by how quickly you're identifying if somebody is a fit or not. And then, and then so I'm assuming what in the matter of five minutes or 10 minutes, you can say, nope, thank you so much for coming in. We're you know this isn't this isn't a fit. We, you know, we wish you all the best. So that that and that candidate knows when they walk out the door that that's it, they're not gonna get hired. They're not waiting for a call back.

SPEAKER_04: 26:42

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 26:43

I mean, we're we're trying to, I mean, some of this was born out of um it really existed before COVID because the hiring situation before COVID was so intense. Totally. It was like, look, I gotta hire on the spot. Like, yeah, you well, for us, it was more like the competition was so high because there were so many restaurants opening, especially in Denver market.

SPEAKER_03: 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:05

That we were realizing like if we do a first interview and try to call somebody back for a second interview, they're gonna be hired by somebody else who hasn't vetted them.

SPEAKER_02: 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:13

But they're gonna hire them just because they have a beat heartbeat. So if they have a heartbeat, great. If they aren't our fit, then let's send them on their way with a release so that they know it's not gonna be us. And we're excited about the fact that it's not us because we know it's not right.

SPEAKER_02: 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:26

But we had seen so often, especially our younger and less experienced managers, you know, of which we have fewer now, we're proud to say, um, that they would spend 30 minutes sitting with somebody and then hiring them simply because they kind of talked themselves into it over those 30 minutes, be like, well, I spent 30 minutes with this person, I should probably hire them.

SPEAKER_00: 27:47

Totally.

SPEAKER_04: 27:48

Um, as opposed to taking the objective assessment of the data that they got, which is the other thing that the interview guides help us with. Now we're now we have apples and apples. Now I have a set of three or four people, or I've done this enough times with the same set of questions that I have a data set that is comparable.

SPEAKER_02: 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 28:05

As opposed to I'm speaking to you and I'm thinking more about what's my next question than I am listening to your responses and logging over my history of interviews where those responses live related to success that I've seen. Um, and so hopefully, you know, if they uh leave the restaurant and are told the why, um they leave actually better. That six or eight minutes that they invested with us, if it's truly that short, like I can think of one that we did, and it ended up being a great training scenario because I was conducting the interview with a couple of new managers. Um, and the gentleman had come in and he had a decent looking resume from Mountain Towns. Um, but then the resume he brought to the interview wasn't the resume that was online. It had a bunch of uh real estate and financial services. Um, and we asked those questions and we got the three bad responses about hospitality. And then I specifically said I was like, I see your resume here. This isn't the one that we had on the online application. Is there a reason you brought this one? And he said, Well, yeah, I just didn't have a printer and I didn't have the time. And I said, You recognize that you're you know you're applying for a hospitality position.

SPEAKER_01: 29:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 29:21

This really doesn't feel like the level of investment that we're looking for, and we would expect you to be invested in hospitality if that's where you want to be. If you want to be in banking, that's where you should bring this resume.

SPEAKER_01: 29:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_04: 29:30

Um, thanks so much. Wish you the best of luck. Feedback grew out of that.

SPEAKER_00: 29:36

Totally. Hey there, podcast friends. I hope you're enjoying these impactful conversations and leadership insights I'm bringing you each week. Before we dive back into today's episode, I want to take a moment and reach out and ask a small favor that would go a long way in supporting the show. If you've been loving the content I'm providing, please take a moment to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. Not only does it make my day, but it also plays a pivotal role in helping the show grow. Your reviews boost my visibility, attract new listeners, and encourage exciting guests to join me on the mic. So if you want to be part of my show's growth journey, hit that review button and let me know what you think. Thanks a million for being awesome listeners. Are you what is the uh I'm curious I'm I'm so curious about so many things, but um I was gonna ask you how you get your managers comfortable with with being able to cut it short and not spend the 30 minutes because they feel bad for somebody or they feel bad that they took all this time to get dressed up and bring in their resume, and they probably know that they're nervous and they're trying to connect, but it sounds like the interview guide is the tool that just helps them get there.

SPEAKER_04: 30:50

The tool helps them get there. Some of the um satellite materials that go with the interview guide as well speak to this is the preservation of your own time, right? Yeah. You you don't want to waste, we're looking at time management here. Totally. So a lot of times in the interview training, um, in one of the key modules that I work with with our managers, it's about time management. And you need to schedule specific times during the week where you are going to be doing interviews, and the whole team knows you're going to be doing interviews, and they can relate that to people that are walking through the door with a resume, they're like, Yeah, come back at three o'clock on Thursday, and just make that a priority because if we're always hearing, we're never behind, never missing out on super high quality people. Um and and if you are in the regular habit of it, then you're able to hone those practices. But the the real it's kind of like the table touch, you have to have that aha moment where you're able to say, because you you have a self-belief and you have a conviction in what you will and won't accept, and you know that this person's behaviors are something you won't accept. And so you let them know, you know. I mean, shoot, it might even be we've had interviews where it just goes to a really dark place and they use a word or a phrase that's unacceptable, and we say, Hey, I gotta stop you right there. Like the phrase that you just used, that's not aligned with our company culture. And and if that's the way you feel about hospitality, then uh we're just gonna uh respectfully say no, thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:14

And know that the managers know that they have the right to do that and that it is the correct thing to do in that instant moment. So so really it's an emboldening of the managers to say, sometimes it shouldn't come as a surprise, but you're the boss. Yeah, you get to decide who gets entrance to your team, who you allow through the gate. Yeah, because once you hire them, they're yours.

SPEAKER_02: 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:41

You know, and now we gotta work on developing and training. And so who do you want to invest that time in? Who do you want to spend the time getting to know well? And you it will be more exciting to do it when somebody in that interview, you're walking out of it being like, oh heck yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:54

I just met this woman, Sarah, and she is a rock star. And when we hear that and see that, it generally pans out to be true.

SPEAKER_00: 33:01

I wish I would have had that verbiage that you just used of like, I'm gonna stop you right there. This just does not align with us. I had is just totally took me back to when I was, oh gosh, I don't know, fift 15 years ago or so. I had a um an interview with a barista friend of all the staff. She should have been, should have been a shoe-in, right? Coming in. I was a new manager coming in, and this person came to the interview, was had a great experience, you know, high volume, a lot of hospitality, and dropped an F-bomb during the interview. And I and I I went my went on with the interview. Again, I wanted to give that person the time because they were a staff, you know, friend. And the staff was so pissed off at me when uh when I told them that we weren't gonna bring that person on because they dropped an F bomb during the interview. And I and but I didn't, I did it. They looked at me like I was the villain. Um instead of me holding it to this is just not acceptable as a company. We are a breakfast restaurant, we don't need people dropping F-bombs at our tables.

SPEAKER_04: 34:05

So especially when you don't know anything as the employee or the the candidate, right? What is the company culture? What is the expectation? Like that's taking tremendous risk, and with risk, you know, there's a chance that it's not going to be a reward. And yeah, you know, that's a great opportunity for that manager, you know, when the staff is like, I can't believe you didn't hire him because he used an F-bomb. I'd be like, Well, I wouldn't have hired you if you use an F bomb. Yeah, I won't hire anybody that they just lash out an F bomb in the midst of it because if that person is already that comfortable in that role because of their relationship with you, they will only see worse behaviors.

SPEAKER_00: 34:41

Totally. And I I liked that they were comfortable, but not that comfortable. Yeah, not that comfortable. Yeah, they they thought it was a shoe. Oh, I love it. What do you see um from the when you turn away the candidates that that are not a fit? Yeah, I loved your perspective of like, hey, we're doing something to help them grow. I don't know if a lot of them see it that way or not when they're rejected.

SPEAKER_01: 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:04

But do you find that they they come back as guests or do they ever reapply? Or are they what's the reaction?

SPEAKER_04: 35:12

Uh I would say more often than not, they're if we phrase it right, they're appreciative. Um, you know, some get up from the table mad and walk away. And in that case, we really know we're right.

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

Yeah, totally right.

SPEAKER_04: 35:28

Like that's just if if they blow up and be like, this is blah, blah, blah. You know, this is like, well, you have just affirmed exactly all the attitudes that I didn't want to add to my team.

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 35:35

Um, but we have had people that have reapplied, um, especially in the manager ranks when we're able to give them feedback, you know, this is something that we're not looking for for this position, and then they'll see another position available, like, hey, I applied for this and you told me that. So I thought maybe this would be a better fit. Like, hey, I agree, and let's talk. So, yeah, it's you you can't control how people are going to react, but you got to stick to your guns and decide what you're willing to put up with and what gets you excited. And um, you know, it it's it's really um we're there is a hiring for a specific attitudinal fit that's really hard to measure, right? It's it's kind of like art, you know, it's different for everybody, and you look at it on the wall, and for some people like that's just a gobbled mess. And then other people be like, it gives them chills, yeah. Right. And so there's aspects of that with the fit that you can just feel in hospitality. And yes, some of it is body language and its posture and its confidence, and it's you know, their their speed of of response and whether or not they're smiling, whether or not they're easy in their own skin, and you know, it's a lot of those things. Um, and and some of it has to play out over time, um, and you can't assess that in the interview. Um, but I think that that when you're able to give feedback, it helps you hone your own parameters as to what excellence is continually, right? Because it's like um the tedious repetition of the simplest movements is what make you great, right? Yeah, and so all of these tiny little things or constant gentle pressure, however you want to say it, uh, you know, that's why I'm I'm not personally a believer in um I think we talked about this. This is one of my little mantras. Um, I don't believe in micromanagement, I don't think it exists. Yeah, I think it is a phrase used by those who don't like to be managed because the little things matter, they're important. Yeah, all the little things. And if you're doing all the little things right, then we're not gonna manage those anymore. If I'm telling you to do things that are unimportant, untimely, or you know, not relevant, that's bad management. That's not micromanagement, that's not that's me having improper focus, or that's me not understanding my um uh the player on the team or the seat in the bus that they're on. Um, but the little things all matter. And so if we're managing those and being communicative about those and giving the feedback on those, we're honing for ourselves what our own expectation is and then honing for the team what excellence looks like.

SPEAKER_00: 38:13

I love it. I love that you're you're offering that little sample of connected hospitality in the interview process. You know, I've always believed that um the candidates that are coming in, your doors are guests, right? You you have you have an opportunity to to, or when we let somebody go, you know, promote him to a guest, right?

SPEAKER_04: 38:31

Sure, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, uh, this is the the dark side of things, but in a disciplinary process, if somebody is exiting our ranks by our own choice and they don't have great intel as to why, it's not us. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, that's that's so unacceptable. That's just at wheel state, whatever you'll say, like it's not quote unquote illegal, it's just bad business.

SPEAKER_02: 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 38:57

And it's bad leadership, and it's bad coaching because everybody deserves the opportunity to be their best self. That's our job as leaders, you know, and with the assumption of positive intent, you know, that gets called a lot of different things. But you know, our my my assumption is that you're doing your best possible job that you can do on this podcast. And I think you're doing an awesome job. And and this is as good, this is will get better, you know, over time in any one thing. But you, as my teammate, if I'm a server and you're a server and you're having an off day, but I'm gonna assume that you're doing the best that you possibly can, I'm gonna do whatever I can to lift you up, and then I'm gonna do better myself. Like living in that space, we've got to own that as leaders in any coaching scenario. And if we've given a billion reminders or three sets of of written warnings or just one stern reminder that this is not okay, and then they still can't shape it up, then yeah, we're we're gonna make a change, but they're gonna know why and they're gonna leave. And they're honestly um not to go all radical candor on you, but they're they're they're gonna know we care.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:00

They're going to know that we're feeling uh that we are wanting to feel connected to them. We are wanting them to understand the why behind everything that we do. Yeah. And sometimes that why is why you don't work here anymore. Other times, more often than not, that why is um because it makes a spectacular lifelong memory for a guest. And because the people that who have decided to pull on our door deserve to have a memorable experience.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think so much of what we do on a day-to-day basis with running businesses is about managing risk. And I think, right, whether it's a server making the choice to touch a table or not touch a table, right? There's risk to both things. And I think the risk is, you know, they're they're unhappy and then I've got to move into action or or spend more time with them or whatever. And the risk of not touching the table is that you miss an opportunity. Right. And I think with a lot of owners and operators, I think that people don't necessarily understand the importance of managing their reputation and the risk that they take when they choose to let somebody go prematurely. And and in in this market, it's it's never been harder to find great people. And so love that you're offering that hospitality on the way out the door. That's great.

SPEAKER_04: 41:13

Well, and that comment you made really struck me, you know, the the risk of not asking the question. That's curiosity, right? The risk of not checking with the guests. And yes, as a server, is the fear of unknown worse than whatever their complaint might be?

SPEAKER_02: 41:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 41:33

I I would say yes. Like I don't think they had a very good time, and I feel like that so I can relate a personal point on that. Uh, and some of my team would love this. I got a one-star review on Yelp. Personally, I crushed it. There was a table during a super busy night at one of our restaurants. They came in super late for the reservation. They were a party of 12, but they booked as three parties of four. And then once they got there, they all wanted to sit together. And so it was already embattled at the start.

SPEAKER_01: 42:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_04: 42:01

And I feel like I'm relatively graceful at the table, and we needed to turn the table, and we made all kinds of offers, and they were kind of waning in the time. And I had great rapport with the table, but there was one couple at the table, group of family, and people were in from all over town. I want to say it was it might have been graduation last year. Um, and I could tell when they left the table, I was like, Oh, I might be in trouble with them. And I spoke to them and I apologized to them, and we and then 16 hours later, boom, one star review on Yelp. Manager forced us to leave the table, like just all of this mud slinging, which was their perception and was their truth, yeah, and 100% bought into it. And as soon as I read it, I was like, that's this guy. Um, and so I sent a message to the team, and I was like, what a great learning experience. You're not gonna nail all of them. Yeah, you we we don't ever want to try to relocate a table that is always fraught with issue, and it's a high-risk scenario.

SPEAKER_00: 43:02

Totally.

SPEAKER_04: 43:02

Um, and you're measuring, you know, future guests versus you know departing guests, so there's no good answers there. And and you can obviously, in so many instances, do nothing wrong, but not do everything right.

unknown: 43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 43:18

And that was one of those great lessons. Like I had to do 16 times over, I might behave exactly the same way, and the outcome might be different. But because I'm listening to that feedback, because I have the realization of how that one ended, I will never do that same thing again. I will grow from it, I will be better. And so it was a great kind of like reflective moment. And then honestly, two weeks ago at one of these manager meetings, the GM brought it up again. It was a sweet sting. And she was like, Well, at least we don't have to worry about many more one stars from Adam. And I was like, Oh, I completely repressed it and forgotten all about it. But being able to have that humility and receive that feedback and and and showcase like nobody's perfect. It's not the mistakes you make, it's how you react, it's how you grow, it's how you remedy, you know, it's true in sports. You know, you get beat on a play, what's your next play gonna look like? It's it's true in business, it's true in relationships, you know. How are you gonna make it up? And how are you gonna grow and improve?

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

I love it. How last question for you, and then I'll let you enjoy your day. Um I'm already enjoying it. How are you how are you keeping connected hospitality top of mind for you so that it can continue to thrive through the organization?

SPEAKER_01: 44:26

Um I think the the same that one's easy.

SPEAKER_04: 44:32

The same energy that uh a manager can get from the connection they build with a teammate or the connection they can build with a guest is the same energy that I get from a manager realizing the energy they get, right? I don't know if I said that well, but basically their their growth and their development and them coming back and being like, so for instance, we had a uh secret shop in one of our restaurants three, four weeks ago, and a manager that I've been working with, not tremendously, but we've plugged in some of these um table touch modalities, and we've talked about the connected service, and she's we've