Healing from Betrayal: A husband and wife's honest conversation on codependency and rebuilding trust.

Most recovery podcasts keep a safe distance between interviewer and subject. This episode doesn't. Our host, Drew Powell, sits down with his own wife, Jamie, to talk about what his addiction and betrayal did to her life, her sanity, and their family. It's uncomfortable because it should be.

This isn't about redemption arcs or tidy endings. Jamie talks about the moment she stopped protecting him from consequences, stopped managing his recovery, and started asking: "What do I need?" They walk through the chaos of early disclosure, the terrifying decision to pursue therapeutic separation, and what it actually meant to "hold the line" when treatment felt like it might cost them everything.

Jamie names what codependency looked like in real time—living by the rule "if you're okay, I'm okay," losing access to her own feelings, and the slow work of reclaiming her voice while married to the person who shattered her trust. They discuss practical tools that mattered: S-Anon, daily emotional regulation practices, communication boundaries with kids, and why detachment isn't abandonment—it's refusing to be someone else's emotional manager.

If you're newly betrayed, feeling gaslit, or wondering if you'll ever feel normal again, Jamie offers language for what you're experiencing and permission to prioritize your own healing. If you're the betrayer trying to understand the damage, this is what it sounds like when your partner finally tells the truth.

Download the free resource: "Loving Leverage: A Wife's Guide to Boundaries, Clarity, and Hope" at valiantliving.com/episode59

Subscribe for unfiltered recovery conversations. Share this with someone who needs to hear they're not crazy. Leave a review so more people can find help that doesn't sanitize the hard parts.

If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.

Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.

Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.

Transcript

Kitchen Take Two

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So that said, let's go ahead and get this conversation going right there in the kitchen of our home. This is the Dynamics Podcast with TV.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Well, we get to welcome people into our lovely kitchen.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

Yeah, don't look too close.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

This table was built by my dad. And it's gonna live with this house forever because it's not gonna be moved in and out. It's so heavy. Thanks for being willing to come on the podcast. This is the first time we've ever done anything like this before.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

Yeah, it's really weird.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Full disclosure, we already recorded this once in our like office podcast studio. We're like, that was weird.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

It's weird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

So here we are. Take take two. Although what you shared was great, but we're gonna. It's weird interviewing your spouse.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

It is. It's really weird.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

And the topic is heavy and it is.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

And I'm not a great communicator anyway. So bear with me.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Have you ever done anything like that? You've never done anything like this.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

Nothing. No.

Gratitude Fear And Sadness

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Well, you've got a lot of great, um, a lot of great wisdom to share because you've well, you've you've always been a wise person. I've I've found you to be not that I've always listened to your wisdom. But um also you've you've done so much work in your own recovery, and that's what I want to talk about today. Um, and you have an ability to kind of to just like remember things that you've heard or learned. And I'm always like, you're you're like asking me, like, how did that go? Or what did you? I'm like, I can't bring it back, I can't recall, but your ability to um like learn, but then also like re-communicate what you're learning is pretty, pretty great. So, and we've always just said, like, if we could just help.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Absolutely. If one person can feel less alone, I'm willing to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

So we've been blessed in our story of having a a lot of really great people around us. Um, I think there you probably did. I mean, did you ever feel alone, even though we've had we had a great support system, but we're did you still feel a little bit of like, is there anybody else going through this, or was that yeah, absolutely?

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

So, I mean, that's why we're doing this. Um, I like to for people that I'm like close with, I like to start with a check-in. Would that be okay? Yeah, just a check-in. Because I don't know, it just helps me like step out of performative mode and just get like I did it with Grace, our daughter when she was on, Tyler. Like, if I'm friends with the person or I know them like closely, and obviously, you know, I like be the closest person I've ever interviewed on a podcast before. So I want to just get out of my head and a little bit more into my body into what we're wanting to talk about and accomplish today. So um, I can go first if you want.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

I feel I feel an immense amount of gladness that we're able to sit here and have this conversation. And it's only been, it'll be four years in August, so not even four years yet. So the gladness that I feel that we can sit here grounded in a really healthy place in our marriage, not perfect, but healthy, um, on this journey of recovery together, just like it's overwhelming um how much gladness I feel for that. But I also um I feel some fear that comes up. I feel I still have, and we're gonna talk about codependency here, but I still like codependently want to manage you on this, not like your responses, because I trust that, but more like I just want you to feel good about it and I want you to feel safe and all those things. So I'm like, and I'm like, she's an adult, she can she can handle herself, but I feel fear and then sadness too. I mean, this isn't the story that we would have written for our lives or for our kids' lives. Um and we've lost a lot. And I think I just feel sadness that comes up when we reshare our story. Um, but over overwhelmingly gladness and gratitude.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Thank you for sharing that with me. Um I feel a lot of the same things, uh, just a lot of gratitude. Um that we can that we're where we are. Um I think I'm just feeling some fear coming up, and just because I'm outside of my comfort zone, um, but feeling I still am feeling um, yeah, I think a lot of gladness that that we're where we are and we can share these types of conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

I think as you were talking, what came up for me is both of us would probably prefer, even though I've done a lot of like more stuff in front of people. I think in this season of our life, we we prefer like walking with people privately. Like you have been a companion for other spouses and betrayed partners. I think we it's a little more life-giving for us in this season just to kind of stay behind the scenes and as people need us to be able to serve people in that that way. But I think also it's both of us stepping out of our comfort zone to say if we can sh if we share it a little more broadly and it helps people, that's great. But like we don't feel like we're experts. At least I don't.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

No, no, no.

Early Codependency Patterns

SPEAKER_02 7:24

We're not therapists, we're not experts, we're just people on their recovery journey who have learned some things. I like how you say I've heard you say before, like, we don't have all the answers, but we have some answers. And only because we've had really amazing people in our lives that have given us some of those answers, and so we can pay them forward. But just so people know, like, this isn't like no, no, we're not trying to ink a book deal here or trying to become a thing. Like, we just we just feel so much gratitude for the journey we've been on, and if we could share bits and pieces of our story and help other people, it's great. So without further delay, let's jump in. And I wanted to talk specifically around the idea of codependency today, because that's something that I feel like you and I are still like we talk about it a lot and we're still learning a lot about it. I I'm I am definitely learning a lot about it because I never thought I was codependent until I got into treatment, and I was like, oh man, I think I might actually be more codependent than Jamie. Um, because I was learning about it more. But um, but before we get to that, can you just tell people a little bit of your story, like how you got into recovery and got into this journey for people that don't know you?

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Yeah, for sure. Um so I my I mean, I can look back and see the patterns of codependency from very early in my life. Um I I think I from a young age was just searching for, you know, my worth, my um my security out way outside of myself. Um, just wanting to find that in other people.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

And those patterns of merging with a lot stronger personalities, I think was where I felt comfortable. And that was definitely a pattern from early on in my life.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

You think that's what kind of drew us together? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

Discovery And No More Lies

SPEAKER_02 9:26

It was for me too, because I remember one of the things that really attracted to me attracted me to you at first was how different you showed up in the world than me. Like I've got early memories of we we met at church and like all of our friend group would be go going to hang out, like going to dinner. And you would be like, No, I think I'm just gonna go home and spend time by myself. And like I didn't have a container for that. I was like, what do you mean? Like, you know, we're going out, we're all gonna go out and have fun. But you even then, I was like, it was almost like this mysterious, like, she, you know, needs time to recharge and be alone, and you always felt more comfortable in that, but then you would merge with a personality like mine, you know. And I think we did what over 20 years of marriage that way. So breaking these patterns is not easy, that's right, has not been easy. No, um, can you talk a little bit about in our story when you first really made the conscious decision to break that pattern and in a really, really beautiful way? And we don't have to camp out here for very long, but I do want people to know like you very intentionally blew up my world. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me. But that took an incredible amount of courage. What are you willing to share about just that season and you getting to the point where you were like, no more?

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah. Um, so I there were some discoveries, um, things that were happening um that I knew were off. And I was, you know, very much in trauma response mode, just in the FBI, like trying to to see that I was not crazy, like just try trying to piece it all together. Um, and then, you know, as I was making those discoveries, um there was one um that kind of sent everything over the edge where everything was confirmed. Um, I, you know, I saw it with my own two eyes. I was like, okay, I'm not crazy. This is exactly what I thought was happening. Um and I do think a lot of like I was in a lot of denial leading up to that. Um, but at that point, it was there was no more denial, like everything just was crystal clear at that point. And so um I think just in my in my hurt, um, in just the anger that I was feeling, just the shock that I was in. Um I I just knew that I wasn't gonna live like that anymore. I was done living in lies, being lied to, being gaslit, being made to feel like I was crazy and making things up. Um, you know, I and it's funny because I I feel like the kids kind of knew before I did. Um, but I just couldn't believe it. I just I just think my denial was very thick of like he could never do that, you know. Um he wouldn't do that to me or to the kids.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Like so yeah, I can on top of me being a master gaslighter manipulator.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

Right. It just wasn't fathomable to me at that point. Um, but but again, you know, when I did confirm what I knew to be true, I it was enough to make me just break out of that and say no more. Like I'm not living in that. You're not going to lie to me, you're not going to lie to our kids anymore. Um and I I was ready to step out of that. And I was willing to um whatever consequences that brought to me, I was willing to go through them at that point.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah. Can you brush your hair just to a side a little bit? But I think it's important. Like I want people to know how unbelievably significant that was in my story of you like finding your voice and calling me out on my bullshit, and also publicly I should say not publicly, but bringing other people into it, like that I couldn't gaslight or make manipulate or hide. That was the very thing that got me on a path towards healing. And if you wouldn't have had the courage to do that, I wouldn't have done it for myself. I remember even calling you, crying, begging, saying, I wish my friends would just do an intervention. I don't you remember that conversation?

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Vaguely.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

That was the day of the intervention that I didn't even know was gonna happen, that you knew was gonna happen. And so and I think the reason why I asked that question before we jump into some of these other topics is because I want couples to know how important it is in seasons where you might be feeling like you're against one another, that some of those courageous decisions are the things that could potentially even save someone's life.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Um, yes. I don't know what you're speaking on that a little bit.

Holding The Line In Treatment

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Yeah, I mean, I think I was I had to come to a point where I was just detaching from your behavior. And I wasn't going to cover up for you anymore. I wasn't gonna try to rescue you from it, I wasn't gonna deny it anymore. Um, and at the time, I I didn't think that it was something that was life-saving, but looking back, it was right.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

It was well, tell them what Chip told you after I'd left. Yeah, he Chip was our therapist and our interventionist at the time, Chip Dog.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Right. He he just explained to me because you, of course, were wanting to leave. Um, and you know, saying, you know, I'm not like these people in here. Leave treatment. Leave treatment. Yeah, right. Wanting to come home. I'm not like these, these people that are in treatment. I, you know, I need to come home. And he said, Jamie, you have to hold the line with him. He you cannot let him come home. You cannot let him back in your house. Um, he's he's going to go through withdrawals, and he is going to um, if he comes home, if you let him come home, he'll be dead in six months.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

He meant that. He meant that literally probably dead.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Right, right. Because you realize that being in the recovery world, how often that happens. And it's devastating. And you you don't realize until you're in it how high the stakes are.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah. And we can we can cut this part if you want, if you don't feel comfortable like answering this next question. But I'm just curious because early in our marriage, you and I, we made a decision on how we were gonna structure our lives. I was working in church ministry and we knew we wanted to have a family, and we made a decision together that your job was gonna be with the kids, to be home with the kids. And we've we saw now we're not saying that's right for everybody, but for us, that was something that we agreed on, and we even talked this morning a little bit. I have zero regrets about that. I love that you were able to do that and everything else. But it also brought some other realities that that sometimes the trade partners face when they have to hold the ground, hold the line, which is sometimes it's hard to know practically what the future is going to look like if you've been living in a house where someone has been a sole financial provider, or you know, a lot of the guys we work with at Valiant have been pretty successful externally and have created and provided lives for their families, you know, just physically, financially, whatever, that they're facing a lot of potential ramifications from their world blowing up for them. And there's a lot of fear with that. What advice or counsel would you give for someone who's like, man, I I would love nothing more than to blow his life up right now? I'm pissed, I'm angry, whatever. I just don't know what life is going to look like for me on the other side of this.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

Yeah. I mean, I I think for me, I just I had to come to a place of just absolute surrender and trust in God that He was going to take care of me and the kids and that He would make a way for me where I couldn't see a way. And I just knew I had to take the next step in my own healing and recovery. Um and I had to just trust that process completely and just surrender to whatever that looked like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

I sense a lot of emotion coming up when you're sharing that. I'm trying to like lean in and make you cry or if you're having a super moment, but what's behind that emotion?

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Yeah, I think just remembering back to just how much pain I was in and how desperate I was. Um and just the not knowing what was going to happen. That it was just agonizing. I mean, it was awful.

Surrender When The Future Is Foggy

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah. Is there anything you would tell yourself now, like if you could go back and tell that person? Because as you're talking about what's coming up for me, is you're a total badass. Like you went, you went and got a job. You went to work. You're like, yeah, here we go. Like, because we we didn't have any promise of being together post recovery post uh treatment. Um, we actually spent 30 to 45 days not talking, therapeutic separation, which I highly recommend for anyone going into treatment. Take a break, take a breather. That's just a little side note, but yes, please, yeah, if you can take a break from one another so you can re-enter the relationship in a healthier way. It's not a punishment, right? It's a gift you can give to one another to take a good therapeutic separation if your story calls for that.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

Right, and to learn how to communicate again in a way that is beneficial to both people. Right. And we did not know how to do that. So we we had to learn how to do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

And we have people that we trusted holding our hands through it. Like that's right. The first time we communicated was with an audience. Yes. We had Jill and Jen in the room and for with me, and you had people with you. Like, we're learning how to relate to one another again, and it's therapists guiding us through it because my instincts were still to use, you know. I've said on this podcast before when I was, I think I was complaining to Jill, one of the therapists at Valiant about not belonging there because I didn't use crap cocaine or whatever it was. And she was like, Yeah, but you use people, you smoke people, and that stuck with me. And she's like, if I let you talk to your wife or your kids or your brothers or whatever, you're gonna use them to feel better, like they're a drug. And so you've got community, you've got guys in the house, you've got support. Go talk with them, connect with them, you've got places to connect. But I had to learn how to communicate without you like using, and I'm not saying I'm perfect in that, but if I well, I'll just say this the first time, one of the first times I did talk to the kids, I used one of the kids to feel better. And I didn't even know I was doing it. I was asking them questions and trying to make me feel better about being gone from them. And it was gross. And looking back on it, I could see it, but then that's just how I knew how to show up in the world, right? And so yeah, coming back together. We had to learn new new patterns and new ways of communication.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I don't know why we got off on all that, but yeah, that was really good. I think that's I think that's helpful for people to hear. Like you have to reset, re-establish new ways.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Re-establish, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah. So let's go, let's talk a little bit about codependency in a relationship. Um what is your definition of codependency? There's a bunch out there, but if you were to describe it to somebody, how would you describe being codependent?

Defining Codependency And Control

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Yeah, I mean, I think the way that it that it showed up in my life was just the loss of connection to myself, my feelings, my needs, um, the loss of self assertion. Um just given over to meet the needs of. You know, my significant other. Right. You know, it was I had this idea that if you're okay, I'm okay. So let's make him okay so we can all be okay. Um, and it was very sick, a very sick way of being.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

And I was never okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Right. Right. We were just waiting for you to be okay all the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

It was like if he maybe the next move, the next job, the next this, he'll finally be okay. Right. It never was.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Never was.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Right. And it was, I think for me, it was just an illusion of control. You know, that I that if I could just, you know, be compliant enough or merge enough with you or go along to get along enough with you, that I would prevent, you know, something awful happening. And it happened anyway. It imploded anyway. So it was an illusion. That's why I say it was an illusion of control over the other person.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

And I would imagine too, just knowing how I'm wired that there probably was some fear of confronting me because I just didn't do well with not getting my way.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Is that fair to say? Yes. Which I'm completely healed of now. I'm perfect now. No, I mean, I think I have a greater awareness of it, but I think was there fear that, like, hey, if I if I put my foot down and stay my ground, this is gonna be because I was relatively unstable for the majority of our marriage anyway, just high highs, little lows. I'm curious if you felt like, hey, if I say no to this or if I if I draw a boundary here, is that gonna be the thing that just pushes them right over the edge and blows everything?

SPEAKER_04 23:48

I mean, yes. I mean, I think I I definitely had fear that if I confronted you about something, that it would just blow up our world. You know, I I had fear that if I questioned you, if I gave a voice to the things that I was seeing and the patterns of behavior and the things I knew were there, but I just didn't want to want to address them out of fear of what would happen to to our family, our marriage. Um, I think that's what kept me stuck, you know, just in in that like very sickly like way of being.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah, that makes sense. Talk about just so I, you know, I get off on a plane to Denver. We live in the Nashville area, and our world is completely imploded. Job loss, I'm gone, we're starting fresh, and by some miracle or grace of God, you are able to find the courage somehow to begin your own recovery journey while I'm gone. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like how did because we we tell people now that we're in recovery.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

That's right.

Her Recovery With Kids At Home

SPEAKER_02 25:25

It's not Drew's in recovery, and I'm supportive of his recovery, it's we're in recovery together, which even that statement is so humbling for a betrayed partner to enter into this journey with someone after they've been put through years of trauma and gaslighting. And in a lot of ways, their addiction or their codependency, or however you want to say, is because of living with an addict for so many years. So it's a very, I think it's very rare, but a very special thing when a partner says, Hey, I'm willing to do the work to try to understand this disease, to understand what my part is in it, but also what my part is not, what's his to own. Can you talk a little bit about that? Journey, I'm gone, you're left here with the kids.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

Yeah, I mean, I think I was in, as I said before, just in such a desperate place. It it was like that desperation just gave me the key to surrender myself to a process that was not in my hands anymore. I was trusting um my therapists here. I was trusting the therapists at the treatment center. Um, I started going to Esinon every week. Um, I had a life guide out of, you know, another counseling center who, you know, her husband had been in treatment for similar things, had been in leadership, um, in church, all those things. And so I was just learning so much and um just saying, tell me, tell me what to do. Where do I need to go? I I just I was so desperate and I knew that I needed healing. I had enough awareness to be like, I'm really sick. I mean, and it was manifesting physically, I was unwell. Um, but it I just knew I had moments where I was like, if I don't get help for myself and begin healing for myself, I'm going to die. Because I couldn't see an end in sight. Um if I didn't do that. And so I think just that that neediness and being awake to that neediness is what um just helped me surrender myself to a process.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah. So well said. And I think one of the things I've heard you say before is I I deserve, um, this is my paraphrase, so correct it, but I deserve healing, whether or not he gets help or not, whether or not we stay together or not. So it was not like I need to heal so we can be together. It was like, I gotta heal, period.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

And if we if we stay together, okay, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Um, right. But either way, I deserve, I deserve healing.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Right. And I I came to that place and I, because of the condition that I was in, just kind of being a shell, I felt like a shell. Like I was, and I was, I knew that I was not showing up for our kids the in the way that they needed. And I think that was another motivator of like, they're watching me, they're watching what I'm going to do. And that gave me, I think, enough like passion to be able to just take the next step. And I that was, I think that was really helpful of just saying, I'm just gonna take the next step. Cause this is so overwhelming, and there's so much that I I have to learn and do, and but I'm just gonna take the next step.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

I think that's so powerful for people to hear. Because in my personality, it is I have to figure out all the steps before I take one. And I'm sure there's some partners out there, some training partners that maybe wired even more like me, where it's like, I gotta figure this whole thing out. What's life gonna look like? And it's like, no, you don't. Not today, you don't. What's the next best step today?

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Right. It could just be a phone call. It could be walking through a door of a meeting. It could, it can be something so small. It could be doing a journal entry, it could just be something so small that over time, yeah, you're like, wow, like I'm doing it, recovering from this.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Right. And that's I think that's one thing that's been amazing in our story is that, and I I want to be careful I say this because everyone is everyone's journey is different.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

And what we learned is that you heal at the at the pace of the betray. Like, you know, a lot of us guys go to treatment, we're there for 90 days, 120 days, whatever, and we come out fired up. We just went to boot camp and we feel all better, you know, in our narcissism and our ego, whatever. Well, meanwhile, the people that we left behind, they're way far back. Like they're not ready yet. Sometimes guys leave treatment, they're not going home, maybe for a long time, maybe not ever. But you heal at the pace of the person that's that is being uh that is betrayed. And one thing I noticed in our story is when when you're willing to do the work and to help each other feel safe, specifically the betrayed partner feels safe. It is amazing the progress that can be made. And I'm not saying, what I'm not saying is if you just do the work, everything's gonna be fixed and be better immediately. But I have been shocked in the last four years at how much progress we have made because of your willingness to do the work, my willingness to do the work separately of one another, but then also together. And so there's so much hope in these stories, but it is, I'm curious your thoughts on this, because it is kind of dependent on your willingness to take that next step. Go to the meeting, get the help, get the healing, read the books on disease model of addiction, specifically around sex addiction. There's so much more that we have to learn about that in general. You did all that. You like immersed yourself into that. I mean, what would you say to someone that's listening and watching right now that feels like, bro, I hear you, but I don't see any way that this thing is gonna ever be good again.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

I think for me, is it it really just I had to felt like I had to take responsibility for myself. Um, because the reality was is that I chose to marry you. I chose to have four children with you, I chose to suppress my own voice, feelings, needs. I chose all of those things. And I was doing it to survive, yes. And it didn't justify any of your behavior, but it it put it back on me. So now what are you gonna do? Now that you realize that, that you you made these decisions, and this is where it has led. Now, what are you going to do with that? And I was awake to that for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Wow.

Detachment And New Communication

SPEAKER_04 32:49

And I think that that is what helped me day by day just to take the next step and just trusting the process of however that was gonna come out. Like if that meant, you know, you and I staying together or us separating and divorcing, or whatever that was gonna look like, I was gaining enough strength to be able to face whatever was next, just little by little with each step.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah. So good. I keep having these questions come up as you're talking, and and like I know we're not like we're like way off script, but it's just like uh I just love everything you're saying because you know, like one question that came up, and feel free to, you know, if you don't want to answer it, but as you're doing that and you're working this process of your own recovery, you're learning to like trust yourself again, right? You're kind of finding your voice, but I'm off, like I'm you're doing this kind of on your own. Yeah, but I'm we're not doing it together. So you have no idea. I mean, that's no idea. You were getting updates, but for the most part, you don't have any idea what I'm doing, what's going on with there? How were you able to like surrender and relinquish the I gotta know what Drew's doing? I gotta like because I felt like from my perspective, in a good way, you were kind of like, hey, good luck in there. Not not net, no, I didn't feel like you were dismissive, but it was like we were instructed not to talk, and you followed it to the letter of the law. Like you did not break stride from what I mean, no, you were locked.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

They said Drew's gotta go for at least 90 days. If I came home at 89 and three quarters, not acceptable. Right. Or if they just said it's gotta be 100, it's now 100.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

That's right. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

And I'm in there like I'm smarter than everyone else. They don't know what I need. And you're just like, well, if you want this to work.

unknown 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

I mean, yeah, I I felt like for the first time, like I was driving. Like I'm driving this now. You're not. Look where you drove us to. You drove off a cliff.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:14

And you know, you needed to be backed down. Like you're you were out of control. Um, and you, I just don't think you had ever been told what to do, ever. That was the first time, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Or willing to receive help.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

My thing is like, if I'm gonna run off the cliff, I'm just gonna be the one to like, I'm not gonna ask anybody for help. Like, I'm gonna keep driving this thing. Right. And I basically drove it until I couldn't drive it anymore.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

That's right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Because otherwise I just would have kept driving until I found my way.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

Right. And I think a big part of that too for me was I didn't, I was learning how to trust myself. I knew I definitely didn't trust you, but I was learning to trust myself again. And so I think just allowing you to just be in the hands of Valiant and the therapist there was a relief to me. Like I was like, they have him, and I'm not in charge of him anymore. Like he is going to have to be a grown-up and make decisions for himself now. I can't be responsible anymore for what he's doing or not doing. Um, I just I had to let you go completely. And I I think that's what I go back to. It was so beneficial for us to not talk for, you know, 45 days or however long it was, just to have like that detachment because we were so enmeshed and so um just dysfunctional in in every way, really.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

So side note for the for not to talk to the kids either.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

So we started out, is it okay if I share this part about kind of the rhythms? Sure. We started out with an evening phone call every night. That was just a disaster for both parties.

SPEAKER_04 37:02

Well, and they didn't want to talk to you, right? But they felt like they had to. And I I was sensing that, and I think we finally came to a point where we're like, if you don't want to talk to him, you don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

And I felt that too. I sense like they don't want to talk to me, and I don't I feel terrible on this call. And it just yeah, it was so awful. It was awful. But then it went to a once-a-week phone call at a certain time, and that was if they wanted to or not. And most weeks they they didn't in the beginning, yeah. Um, and man, that was so painful and so good for my recovery and my because in the addict brain, we're we're trying to learn how to like develop empathy again and understand how we've hurt people.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

And for a lot of addicts like myself, it's easy to go into, well, if I if I could just talk to them, I will be able to, it's old patterns, I'll make them feel better.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

I'll just I'll I'll talk my way out of this or talk my way through it.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

And that wouldn't happen, you know, and it took that power away from me. It took all that stuff away from me that was that was unhealthy. And it wasn't until down the road, like you were talking earlier, the kids really did follow your your cues.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I mean, they they followed your patterns, like as as you began to get healthier and just you know, not healthier, but I don't know how you would say it. But like the the kids just followed followed suit. They were usually a couple steps behind wherever you were at.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Right. You know, in your journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

But that was so important for us to to have that. And especially as we started reintegrating again. And you know, I think it's important for people to hear like, you know, the amends process that we did.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

You know, it was with all, it was with everybody.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

It was.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

It was with each kid individually. I mean, what do you remember about that that you feel comfortable sharing?

SPEAKER_04 39:10

Yeah, I I mean it's I feel like it's an ongoing thing too. It's like, yes, there was that initial and then and you taking responsibility for the harm that you did to them. Um yeah, I as they've gotten older, it, you know, their needs have shifted, you know, and they I think it's an ongoing process of what they need from you.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, you know. Well, of course, I want to do it once and be done.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

Yeah.

Safety Honesty And Making Amends

SPEAKER_02 39:44

But that's just not right. That's not how it goes. It's not that I want, I want the kids to have what they need. I want you to get what you need more than anything. But my mind, my default is we did that. You know, but it's like, man, that's and that's part of like what we what we get to do in recovery. You know, we get to continue to show up for one another. We get to help each other feel safe. I mean, we're just having this conversation with some some dear friends of ours who are also recovery. It's like it's not a or it might actually be with Dr. NB or I can't remember, but I don't feel like recovery in a relationship with someone that you love is a burden, personally. Not to say it's not a challenge, but like for me to spend the rest of my life rebuilding trust or making you feel safe, that that's a gift that I've been given. Like, that's not a oh, I gotta do this. Or I got it's like, no, I love you, and you have shown me what unconditional grace and mercy, forgiveness, and love looks like, and you've done your own work. Like it feels like the least a person can do is to spend the rest of their life, if that person is willing to re-engage in a relationship with you, helping that person feel safe. Like, why is that a right? Why is that a sticking point? Yeah, you know, it's like, I don't know, how do you how do you how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_04 41:14

Right. I mean, it's now now that like looking back, I'm just like, why did I not you know it's like safety. Okay, well, that's a foundational thing in a relationship to feel safe with someone, yeah, you know, and I'm like, gosh, when I when I think back like pre-recover, yeah, the years, right, of not having that or having the illusion of it, yeah, right. Like, but now being on this side and experiencing real safety in a relationship, my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

I don't know, game changer.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

It's like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Well, yeah, and also experiencing real honesty. Right. Like, because the the the story that I wrote was if Jamie really knew me, there's no way to vote. So for years I had to keep up the act, right? You know, and it wasn't that all of it was dishonest, but enough of it was dishonest that kept a barrier of intimacy between us that we didn't even know really existed.

SPEAKER_04 42:17

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

It was just our normal, you know. But now I'm like, man, it we even joke, like even really little things that seem trivial, it's very difficult for me to like keep them from you. Because it's just like I love this like open stream, open flow of connection and we don't have anything between us, right?

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Like there's nothing between us, nothing, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

And if I go to a coffee meeting and we change locations, I have to tell you where I'm going because I just don't want there, and I know that's small, and maybe you care or don't care, but I don't even it doesn't matter. I don't want there to be anything where you're like, you think I'm here, but I'm actually here. Right. I don't like like for me.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

And for me, I would be like, you're being dishonest. Right. That is unacceptable to me now. Right. That is a boundary. Like I'm not living with someone who is not being honest with me across the board. That's withholding information, that's whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Um I feel unsafe right now.

SPEAKER_04 43:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Well, and you did it this morning, and we won't, I won't talk about the specifics of it because it's nobody's business, but you said, Can we talk this morning? Like it was about something else. And it was funny because my first instinct when you said that was, oh no, am I in trouble? And then I thought for a second and I was like, no, there's nothing that she like, I know I'm gonna, I'm not hiding anything. So, like, so then it was like so free. I'm like, okay, there's not, there's not gonna be a discovery, there's not anything like that. She's just something she wants to feel she wants to talk about. I'm like, awesome, let's talk.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

Right. And it takes so much communication, right? Like just staying connected. It takes really intense. Intentional conversation.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

We know.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Well, one thing that we've started doing, talking about codependency, uh, some, and we're we're still practicing this.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

All of it is practicing. And it's very clumsy.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

We're we're the clumsiest toddlers. I will say that we we do get back up pretty quick though. Like our our return and repair is quicker than it used to be. Like we don't stay in that space very long because we're usually able to like get grounded and self-reflect and then own what we need own. Um, but it definitely is is clumsy, clunky. We're we're toddlers in this. Yeah. But one thing that's been help helpful with two, I would say, highly codependent people. Me, it's not a competition, but I think I'm more codependent on like the control side of things. Um, where I always thought codependence was just about meaniness, like I need someone's help on something, and so I'm being codependent. Well, it's also could be control. You'd also be like, I'm trying to manage and control your life and how you feel everything else. But you started doing this for me, Sam, where you'll say, I need to tell you how I feel, and I don't need you to fix it for me. And there's something about you saying that that helps me sit back and be like, oh, this is listen time. You know, this is listen, affirm, make her feel safe time, not I need to jump into action with a plan on how to fix her, which would still to this day be my default. Talk a little bit just about like some of those patterns of codependency that we're we're trying to on a daily basis break in our in our lives.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

I think some of the the practices, just the daily practices that I have, um, I think it's all around connection. So uh checking in with myself, where I'm at, um, what feelings are coming up, what needs can I name? Um, you know, and then connecting those with God and, you know, just bringing those to him first. And and then from there, just kind of surrendering myself to is there someone I need to reach out to? You know, is do I need to have a conversation with Andrew? Do I need to reach out to someone in my support group, which I do a lot? And I think that's realizing like you can't meet all of my needs. Like I have to reach out to other people. I can't, you know, depend on you for everything, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

Um, so I think part of my growth is just being able to reach out um to women in my support group and just be able to gain support from them, perspective from them.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Um, just to be able to share really honestly with them. I feel like there's been so much healing for me in that. Um, and feeling like I'm not crazy and I'm not alone. Um, that's been one of the big keys. Yeah, I feel like for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

And it's okay to have needs. Yeah. And it's okay to ask for what you need. I think we're both learning that from different ways. Like it's okay for you to have needs and be able to ask for them and get them in healthy ways. It's okay for me to have things that I need and to be able to ask for them and get them in healthy ways.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

It's also okay for me to hear no, but also know that there's other ways to get those needs met without acting out in unhealthy ways. You know, it's like that's part of it. It's like, yeah, like you said, like I may have a need with you, but you might not be at the place where you can meet that need at the moment. Well, great. I've got a bunch of buddies I can call.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

I can go and get connection today. I'm not short on connection. I've got groups I go to, I got all the stuff. So it's not like, well, I need something. I'm feeling something that I don't know what to do with this feeling. Which that was that's what led me to addiction ultimately was feelings that I didn't know how to connect with. I mean, talk on that a little bit. We talk about these feelings and we reference Chip's voice of the heart all the time because it's just like yes.

Daily Practices For Living Fully

SPEAKER_04 48:09

It's so much of it is avoiding having to feel and avoiding pain and numbing and escaping. So it's I love how you know Chip talks about how we're made as feeling needing humans, and there's no such place as a way. And so we're going to we're going to get those needs met, whether it's in an impaired way through addiction and escape, or if it's in a healthy way, that's through connection and honesty and vulnerability and all of those things that we're so afraid to do. We're afraid of being hurt. We're afraid of being rejected. Um, we're afraid of all of the feelings that come with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Well, in my addiction, I feel like the only feeling that I had that I allowed myself to access was probably anger. Like I could get mad, I could get angry, um, an unhealthy anger, not even healthy anger, not even like passion or I'm angry for something or whatever. It's like mostly like rage, you know, type anger.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

But then learning that that's actually a secondary emotion. Like now when I feel angry, my first question to myself is what else?

SPEAKER_04 49:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

What what what else is am I feeling with that? Oh, I actually feel like I lost something. So that's sadness, or I actually feel some apathy right now. Like I just have the I don't give a crap. Right. Well, I'm lonely.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Like I'm learning that these are other, or I'm fear, it's huge for me in my life. Like usually top plate is like I'm afraid of something, you know, and that's why I'm angry because I'm afraid, you know, it's like, but until I'm able to connect with those means and actually see those feelings, I'm not able to show up and connect with you or with our kids or any or myself in healthy ways, because it's gonna come out sideways. Right. So that's what leads us to addiction. I gotta numb. I this this feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

So I gotta go numb these things. I don't like the way I feel. Now it could be as simple as like standing out there in the backyard with our dog, my Rottweiler is laying over there and throwing the ball barefoot for five minutes, 10 minutes. I mean, I know that sounds stupid, but that's grounding for me.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

It's like this is the stuff that we're learning on how to, you know, show.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

Right, right. It's the you know, chip talks about like face, feel, deal. Like we're you have to face and feel and deal because there's no such place as a way. So, and that's really hard if you've never done that before. Yeah. And I feel like we're learning how to do that um daily.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

What is now that you're you've been in recovery for a little bit, what is living fully look like for you now?

SPEAKER_04 51:05

Yeah, I I think it goes back to those recovery practices. Um just being in touch with with my own heart and what's going on, um, and being able to name what those are, what feelings and needs are coming up, um, being able to share those with the people around me that I trust.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:30

Um just those connections. I think living fully is about being connected to myself first and connecting to God and to other people.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

What would you say um to the person listening or watching right now who might be where you were early, early stage recovery. Maybe it was just a discovery, your world just got blown up. Um I mean, what what would you offer?

SPEAKER_04 52:02

Yeah, um, I would just say you're not alone and you're not crazy. Um and there, you know, if if you're willing just to take the next step, there there's people there that are waiting for you. Yeah. That um can amazingly just helps to support you, to hear you, to be for you, to help you know what your healing journey is going to be. But I think overall I would just say like you're going to be okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

You're going to be okay. And this is going to be awful and hard and painful, but you're going to be okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

So good.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

What are some other kinds of topics that come to mind? Because we talked a little bit about codependency today. Honestly, that's a really deep wealth.

SPEAKER_04 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

You know, and we can even maybe link to some other resources in the show notes of like, because you've you've got some great books and resources and stuff. So maybe we'll just link to those if you'd be willing to share. Also, you mentioned if there's someone who's struggling and you that need to talk to somebody, you know, we can connect them with you if you want to just be a companion, just be someone that's listening. It's like, man, I just would love to have just to tell Jamie my story and to have someone's a safe place. And um, you have been that, continue to be that for a lot of people, a safe place to just be. You're not gonna fix them, you're not a therapist, you're not whatever, but just I can be with you absolutely um in this. But for the for the especially betrayed partners that might be listening, what are some other topics that we could potentially cover in the future that you feel like would have been helpful for you early on?

Hope For Early Stage Betrayal

SPEAKER_04 53:44

Yeah, I think I think understanding addiction, I think was such a huge key for me in the beginning, so that I could have compassion for you. Um, that I could see you as sick and not bad. Um, I think was a huge part of me being able to hold space for you while you were in treatment, even though I didn't know what was gonna happen. I mean, I either way, I knew, you know, you're the father of my kids. So I'm going to have to deal with you on some level for the rest of my life, right? Um, so I think it was just that was key in me being able to have compassion. You know, and it's you know, when I think about you being in treatment and you know, you're in PHP partial hospitalization, it's like this person is is sick with a very with a disease, just like any other disease. Um so I think that was that helped me to like I said, just have to have compassion first.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Right. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, and I think there's there's just so many other things when a couple like us who get into this stage of our lives, it's such it's such new territory.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

But I think it's great to just have someone who's just a little bit down the road that can say, there are resources, there is help. You're not the only one experiencing. We didn't know anybody else doing this when we got into it. Right. Now, like all of our friends are in it. Like it's like, well, this is our whole community now, it's people that are in recovery. You know, it's like it's it's actually a huge community, right? But it's anonymous, so it's like you it's like kind of gonna it's hard to get into sometimes. Right.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

It's there if you if you're seeking it, it's there for sure. And there are amazing women who understand completely, completely. And that is like such a comfort, especially when you're you're in the thick of it. And you know, if your loved one is in treatment, like it's to have that support is vital. It really is vital.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Yeah. Last question for you, and this has been awesome. Thank you for for doing this.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

It's rough. I'm trying. I'm trying. No, I think it's great.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

I I just I love that every day we have commerce. We talk about this all the time.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

Yeah, I mean, it's it's our life. Right. It's our yeah, daily life.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

You daily say things to me that I'm like, wow, that was really, really great, really helpful. So I'm I'm just happy for for other people to hear just your you know, your your story and how you're walking through this honestly. But I just am curious if you were to speak to like young Jamie entering into teenage, adulthood, marriage, parenting, navigating. What are what's the thing or some of the things that you would sitting where you're at now that you would go back and say to her?

What I’d Tell Younger Me

SPEAKER_04 57:19

It's gonna make me cry. Um yeah, I think just like your emotional home is inside of you. It's not inside of anyone else. Um, you don't you don't have to find your acceptance, validation, safety, all of those things um inside of another stronger personality than yours. Like you have what you need inside of you. You can draw on those things and then be open to relationships with other people from that place. Um I think I would tell her, you know, how you show up in the world matters. And I think for, you know, most of my adult life, it just, and I still struggle with that of like it doesn't really matter if you're there or not, you know. Um, but I think learning like your presence does matter and your voice does matter, and you showing up um matters. And so, and I think I'm still learning that and telling myself today that, and that's is what I was telling me for.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Well, we made it through it. That wasn't that wasn't the most comfortable thing in the world, but man, I'm so grateful that uh that we need to have a conversation with that. I'm so grateful for the work, 15,000. 15,000 wouldn't be wherever we are today. So what's the first time? So great, four, gray, fourteen four stairs, two sides, so many sides, 15 stairs, will they?