Special Episode: "Loving Leverage", A Live Virtual Clinical Roundtable

Most people try to love addiction out of someone, and it quietly turns into enabling. We wanted a more honest approach, so we hosted a live roundtable called Loving Leverage with clinicians, family advocates, and people in recovery to talk about the question families live inside every day: when does support help, and when does it keep someone stuck?

We dig into what “loving leverage” actually looks like on the ground, from detox realities to long-term recovery. You’ll hear why repeated threats without follow-through backfire, how “relational influence” differs from control, and why the best boundaries are rooted in safety rather than punishment. We also talk about the practical teamwork piece: aligning spouses, parents, employers, and providers so the addicted person can’t split the system, and so treatment has a real chance to work.

For clinicians and helpers, we explore the uncomfortable tension of who the client really is when an addicted partner and a betrayed partner want different things. We discuss why outcomes improve when you treat the whole family system, how families can spot relapse risk and inauthenticity after discharge, and what to do when a professional rejects labels like sex addiction by focusing on trauma and attachment patterns. We close with a message for partners and families who feel stuck: fear can be a signal that it’s time to act.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with someone supporting a loved one, and leave a review so more families can find the help they need.

If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you don’t have to face it alone.

Valiant Living helps men and their families move from crisis to stability through clinically driven care, community, and hope.

Learn more about our programs at www.valiantliving.com
or call us confidentially at (720) 796-6885 to speak with someone who can help.

Transcript

Why Loving Leverage Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome back to the Valiant Living Podcast. Today's episode is a little bit different. You're actually going to hear a live roundtable conversation we hosted called Loving Leverage. And this conversation centers around one of the most difficult tensions in recovery. It's how do you love someone deeply without protecting them from the consequences that they may need to face? So when does support help and when does it start to keep someone stuck? If you've ever been on either side of that, as a clinician, a family member, or someone in recovery, you know there's no simple answer. So that's why we brought multiple perspectives into the same room, not to give a formula, but to have an honest conversation about what this actually looks like in real life. So you're gonna hear from clinicians, there's family advocates, and there's also individuals who lived experience talking about when leverage is necessary, when it goes too far, and what it looks like when it's done well. This is this is not a lecture, it's a real conversation. And if you find this helpful, we host these roundtables every month on the third Thursday. It's virtual. And our next one is on the future of complex case management. So you can register for free at ValiantLiving.com slash roundtable. All right, before we jump into it, I want to just quickly introduce uh the great panelists we had on this round table. First, we got Dr. Stephanie Embiid, she's our chief growth officer here at Valiant Living, and uh she really brings a deep clinical perspective on how leverage shows up in treatment of family systems. We've got Michael Denine, the CSAT, and CEO and founder of Valiant Living. He's worked with countless men and families navigating this tension in real time. We also have Ed Tilton, he's the president of the Ginnigan Institute with extensive experience helping clients move from resistance into meaningful change. We've got Jamie Powell, my wife. She's on again, and she's a trade partner advocate and bringing really an essential perspective from the partner side of what leverage feels like when trust has been broken. Um, also with us is Brooke Donahue, who's a family advocate of Night Living, who works really close to the families trying to support their loved ones while holding necessary boundaries. Um, we've got J.R. Gallegos, he's the director of IT Talks to speak first, and what happens if the leverage finally has that influence with willingness given of course to help. I'm on there as well to call your host person in a work in the MC Growth Department here. So really, this is a conversation that brings together both clinical insight and living creative life is exactly what it is called just coming back together. That's enough for me.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Let's get let's get usually want, like most humans, they want the least invasive, the least painful way. So what we try to do is amp it up and align ourselves from uh with the with the power source, which could be the spouse or the parent or the employer or the lawyer or all of them and stay in lockstep with them along the way in order to uh highly influence somebody to make a good decision um to take the next step in their life. Right. So we've become really at Valiant, we've become really good at this uh because we think getting somebody in, that's the first intervention, keeping somebody is second intervention, and then you slow them down, third intervention, then you hope you build a container uh of safety and you push people enough, and then you hope that some of these miracles, these cathartic experiences happen. So we can't produce the change, we can't produce the miracle, but we could do a lot to get that person into the situation where that can happen if their heart opens up a little or there's enough pain or there's some. So that that's sort of like laying the groundwork for this discussion of like, why do we use leverage on adults? Yeah. Why would we do that? Well, we do it because we um we're trying to save save some lives that why why we're trying to save a lot more lives than would be saved if it if the guy just hit his bottom and said, I'm done, help me.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, that's I mean, well said. I I would say just from my perspective, there's no way I would be where I'm at today, maybe even alive, if Jamie wouldn't have set used that leverage. I would not have come to Valiant. No way. Would not I would have probably well, JR's shaking his head because he'd known I would have left as early as y'all would have let me leave. I was here for 90 days plus. And if you guys said more, I was gonna be here more. And Jamie, I was not coming home at 89 in three quarter days. It was gonna be, you know, and so ultimately that's what saved my life. JR, I'm curious from your standpoint, because you're working with a lot of people who are like, you know, they're still coming in high. They're just like, you know, and how what are you seeing on like on a real life example, not just in theory of how this loving leverage is working to help save lives?

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Well, and that's a great question. And like Michael's talking about, right, like how do we save people from hitting that bottom, right? And for many people, that bottom is like the bottom, right? And so what we're finding to kind of that ground zero at the detox level, right, is that maybe they haven't hit that bottom. So there's a lot of instances where there's tons of external forces that are influencing their motivation to get treatment, right? And so for us, that's why it's so important to find that loving leverage, right? Because if the person really hasn't hit the bottom, right, they still have a job, they still have the family unit still together, they still have all of these things that they're hyper focused on. And it's like, I gotta get back to work, I gotta get back to here, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And so that's why this loving leverage is like, yes, we hear you. And this is for that person, right? Not the client, but the loving leverage is like we hear them, and this is why we're doing this so they don't lose those things, right? Like, let's avoid that bottom.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, that's so good. Um, and you guys feel free to just kind of jump in and interrupt one another, interject as you have thoughts. You know, don't wait on me to call on you. But um, while you're thinking, Brooke, I'm I'm curious from your standpoint, because you're working with these families, um, what where do you see leverage most maybe misunderstood in the work you do? Because you're you're actually doing a lot of work on the support side, and it can be extremely difficult for a loved one to hold the line. You know, where's leverage misunderstood from your standpoint?

When Leverage Becomes Empty Threats

SPEAKER_07 6:38

A lot of times it's misunderstood as a threat. Um family members, if you don't do this, then I'm not gonna do this. Um, or if you don't go over here, I'm gonna go over there, right? Um, and I think that in the beginning it it it sounds right and it makes sense. Um, and maybe it even worked at one point. Um, but what we find is consistently threatening people, well, the threats fall short. Um, and then there's no follow-through. So then what we end up doing is we end up actually teaching our loved one that we threaten a lot, but we don't actually do. Um, so so finding what what they need, what the family needs, and then utilizing that and putting themselves first and being mindful that it is not to control the outcome, is not to control the person, um, but rather to protect self and maybe anybody else in the situation, the home, the children, the business, the what have you. Um, really kind of leading from a place of self versus a place of I want to get him to fill in the blank. That's really where it goes wrong, is we think we're gonna we're it's almost a a control, right? Uh I think it's really safe to say that we're all a little bit of control freaks here, um, especially the family members. And it's it's it slips in. We slip into control really quickly without realizing it. So really staying grounded in what do I need, what is best for me, um, is is kind of where it goes wrong.

A Partner’s Boundary Story

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah. Yeah, so good. Uh Jeannie said, I I really like this. It she said, I like the statement, you no longer have to take the elevator to the basement. You can get off on the second or third floor. I love that, Jeannie. Thank you for that comment. And that's that's so true. Um, I think in my story, that's definitely true. I think Jamie's loving leverage helped me not go all the way to where it would have gone. Um, but Jamie, I'm curious from your standpoint, we're talking loving leverage. Would you be willing to share just when I was getting ready to go to treatment? There's some things that you said to me before I left that I think was a really beautiful example of giving me the freedom to go get help, not making any firm decisions, but also holding the line. Would you be willing to share a little bit about that part of your story?

SPEAKER_06 9:06

Sure. Yeah, I I just had come to a place where enough was enough. And um I one of the big statements was no more lies. Um, I wasn't gonna accept lies from you, and I wasn't gonna lie for you. Um and just I think being able to hold space for you as you left and not make any big decisions um in your absence was I think it felt less threatening.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah. Well, you would always talk about hope, hope without expectations. So when I left for treatment, I knew that the likelihood of our family staying together um was really dependent on my willingness to engage and do the work. But there wasn't a promise of, I'm waiting for you when you get out, we'll be here. It was not that at all. Like I actually thought the other way. But you said I'll hold space for you till you get done and then we'll we'll reevaluate. And it really gave you time to do your own work as well. You know, Dr. MDA, you're you're talking to these people all the time. I just heard you on a phone yesterday talking to someone coming in, and this is a big part of the work you do. I want to pitch you just to hear your thoughts on just this idea of loving leverage, but also at what point does support without leverage stop being helpful?

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Well, I mean, I think that's how they come to us, right? Is that they love this person so much. They don't want them to die. And and and so they're they're like holding this person in a bubble of safety, but in the meantime, they're the ones who are not safe, right? So like the addiction is taking the loved ones out while they're trying to maintain the the addict from dying and hold them up from dying, keep them in somewhat of a bubble to where it's like, okay, they may be doing this, but they're still here, like they can still see, touch, feel, and you know, feel them. Um I think I a big part, and I I know I heard it in Jamie's story when we've talked before, is that families just don't know what to do, right? They don't know the difference between how do I show up with compassion and set these boundaries and use the leverage that I have. We like to call it when Michael and I were talking last week about loving leverage, we use the word relational influence, right? So it's not, it's that relation that that they have with the addict, and it's using that influence. We use influence all the time. We use it to raise our kids, we use it in therapy, like we can use positive influence, and that's kind of that difference between the ultimatum and the the you must do this or you must do that, versus this relational influence. I love you, and I can't continue to die with you, right? Because that's what's happening to the families, they're dying with the attic. So it's like it's getting the family to recognize you have been trying to do this by yourself for so long, let us help you, right? Let us as the therapist, let us as the interventionist, let us as the facility let us help you because you need a break. You need to start looking for at what's safe for you, and you need to allow us to kind of help and manage that safety for your loved one. And Jamie, I know for you, I know you've talked before about how that gave you a voice at the beginning when you didn't feel like you had one. That gave you safety and comfort to know when they said no, don't go see Drew before he leaves for treatment. No, get out of your car, turn around, do not go over there. Or you could be like, okay, because somebody has him, but I don't have to do that role anymore. And now I can kind of step out of that role and I can just be his wife. I can just be me. I can I can start to figure out what that looks like. So I think that's hugely important at the beginning is getting is is building a relationship with the loving leverage so that they know you're not in this alone. We've got you. We know what you're dealing with. We do this every day, we know what you're dealing with. Let us help you. Um, for me, that's that's the biggest thing I try to get across when talking to families.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah. Well, and JR will tell you, because he was my case manager, whenever, whenever they did draw a boundary with me, I was I was the ideal client. I mean, just completely surrendered, never pitched a fit, never, you know, I'm kidding. I was a freaking toddler. It was ridiculous. But in in what you're saying, you know, Jamie, one thing I've I've I've seen you do because you were willing to use the support and the trust is it gave you the space to do your own work, which is what I've seen now working in the space is more rare than what I would hope is for the betrayed partners to give themselves the gift of healing from their own trauma that they've experienced while their partner is safe in treatment. It's like instead of managing and trying to control their treatment from wherever else, like take this opportunity to say they're safe. Now let me see what I need because I've been manipulated and gaslit, you know, in our situation for over 20 years. There was a lot of healing you did, and you know, you were willing to kind of dig into that. You know, Ed, I'm curious from your standpoint, you've been listening to all this, what's coming up for you when it comes to loving leverage from the just talking about the necessity of it. We'll we'll move to when it goes wrong here in a minute, but you've done you've been in this space for a long time. I'd love to just hear your thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, I mean, I think I think I think the importance is in the outcomes. Um, we all everybody on this call knows that the the longer people stay in treatment, the better their chances are to get better. Um and family involvement is is one of those top predictors, you know, and so there has to be the this formation of team. And you know, I say this having having worked at Valiant and also, you know, having watched Valiant, you know, over the years, nobody does it better, you know, in terms of really providing that education. Um I think Dr. MD, you that's a really important piece. You know, when when families finally get their person into treatment, like that's the first miracle. You know, and and then the only thing they want to do is is go, I I just want to like have a good sit and not think about this for 30 days. And really good programs provide education. They say, hey, now we need you to understand what this what we're up against. And you know, I think it's education to elevate, to see where boundaries need to be, not from a place of punishment or or like you said, controlling, but being able if it's rooted in safety, this is where we can kind of universally agree. Um, because everybody comes in to treatment with these, I would like to say like everybody's individually specific, but universally understood. Like the the beauty is like we know how addiction moves, we know how trauma moves, and ever all the family members have been chasing it, and it is really sneaky, and this is where you can actually kind of get ahead of it or or kind of like catch it at the pass. And I I think that what leverage offers is a value-based it's it's a value-based outcome that's rooted in in playing the tape forward with sound clips, with with voices that actually matter. Um the craziest things happen in an addiction where uh and and I the craziest things happen because you have these like fleeting thoughts, like you're like, oh yeah, I might get fired, but like that that's that's not gonna happen. It's very different when your boss calls you up and goes we're done if you can't figure this out. Right. And it's not because you're not a good producer, you know, and it's not because and I think you know, the coaching and the education around, you know, speak to the universal emotions, don't spit, don't speak to the specifics. I'm like just echoing a lot of stuff Mike taught me over the years, but these are where, you know, this is where we can really like reel this in as being a universally understood healing process. Yeah. And and the power of that is if it's universal, it's we're able to replicate it. And if we're able to replicate it, we're able to ensure fidelity and outcomes. And so if people are watching or listening and kind of thinking, like, well, well, why trust this way as opposed to the way that we've done it before? It's it's really that. Like there's a tried and true method to this, and it works.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

So good, man. Um, I'm gonna go off script a little bit because I see my one of my recovery brothers that are in the attendees here, Mike, Mike Ward. I I just text him so I this is not surprise to him, so don't think I'm calling on him out of you know, crazy. But Mike, Mike and I get to get to be in this alumni brotherhood together. And man, the work, Mike, that you and and your wife have been doing is just incredible. I get to see it every week on these on our alumni calls. Would you be willing to share just for a second, um, just what is the what role did leverage play in this story? You there, Mike? Oh, I might have lost them.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Well, Drew, I lost you for a second there. Other AirPods just got total static.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Of course, of course. No, I was just asking the leverage in your story, man. What would you be willing to share a little bit how that played uh played a role for you?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Um, it saved my family. Um, I remember after uh I see Michael shaking his head. He remembers the call he had with uh my wife and my mom after um my unfortunate discovery. Uh Burke knows my mom, she does the support calls as well. Um, and I remember my wife coming back from a call with Michael saying, I found out where you're going. And it was valiant, and we figured out how we were gonna work. She goes, I love their support structure because she comes from a world of addiction on the chemical side and substance addiction. Um, she's a clinical therapist and a director of a treatment center in that world. So she understands that, but she doesn't understand the process side. That was a hard barrier for her. She kind of came to me and said that uh whatever happens between us, I need you to be healthy. And whether we stay together, we'll figure that out. But I need you to be healthy for our family and our kids, and I need you to go figure out how to do that. And talking to Michael and them and Valiant, and uh they convinced me to get on a plane. I was under the pretense I was coming out to Colorado to fix my life in 30 days because I was one of those type A personalities. I'm gonna excel at recovery, I'm gonna get my your fix stamped in 30 days. And I think 20 days in, I realized, man, I am just scratching the surface and finally got to my bubble opened up, and I realized, hey, I need to take this time and really work on myself and was grateful for the opportunity to spend 90 days out there and now continuing to repair my life with my family and and having the opportunity because I also understand the rarity of that uh to rebuild the life with my family at home.

Who Is The Client In Treatment

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah. Thanks, Mike, for sharing that. I got goosebumps that you're sharing, and a part of it's just because. Mike, just to brag on him for a second, Mike didn't just go to treatment and say I'm fixed and go home. He works this every day of his life. We're on meetings together twice a week. He's at all of them. He shows up all the got a new job. I mean, you talk about someone who has totally revamped his whole life and is healthy and is just working this process. So, Mike, we're we're so proud of you, man. I love you. And I'm glad I get to be your brother and in recovery. Um, I'm gonna throw out a softball question to the whole group, and I'm gonna let you guys fight over this one. Um, we've got a lot of a lot of clinicians on the call right now and that are gonna be listening to this later. The question is, a lot of times someone comes in, like myself or Mike, and in some ways they're your client, right? But you're also having to partner with the with the family in some ways. And there's this delicate balance between who am I serving? Sometimes the client, and oftentimes the client and families are in different places, and you're trying to help bring all that together for the clinicians in the room or the providers that are in this space where someone's come to them for help, but they also have to, it's helpful to have the leverage, the loving leverage of the family members. How do you balance that? How do you live in that tension? How do you work through that together? And I know this wasn't on the notes I sent over, so this is Drew being Drew and going off the off the map. But um, yeah, let me just lob that out. Who wants that one?

SPEAKER_04 23:31

I'll start us.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

You know, Mike Ward is a great example. Uh and, you know, I'm just psyched that he's that he's that he's here. But like you think about how this and and Mike not even Mike might not even know the whole story of how I don't know if Sherry Young's still on this call, but like this is how this goes down. It's like a therapist who's friends with somebody that that's really allied with us and understands us. So therapist from Pennsylvania calls Sherry Young. Sherry Young says, I think I I know the guy that you need to talk to. Then I'm in and so the therapist is friends with the mother of Mike, but doesn't but the mother of Mike doesn't want to get overly involved because this is really between Mike and his wife, right? So who am I working for? Am I working for Sherry Young? Am I working for the therapist? Am I working for uh Mike's mom? Am I working for Mike's wife, or am I working uh for Mike? And and so the it just starts in a cluster. But you know what I do is I I just throw it all aside and I think about the kids. And I think who I'm really working for are Mike's kids that I'll never meet, that that that uh maybe when I meet God someday, I'll be like, yeah, there are a lot of kids that um had a dad in the house or even out of the house, but he showed up emotionally. He he he was he was sober and he rebounded and he's my he's my hero now, right? So so um so I'm I get single focused, but my goal is like, how do I prop up the the wife? How do I uh how do I satisfy mom? How do I do all this? But how do I get Mike on a plane? And and and then once he hits the ground, then I have to let the staff know who to pay attention to. You don't want to drop these people after you've come alongside them. Don't, don't, don't botch this operation by saying, thanks for thanks for the referral. Now Mike's on the ground, now let's let oh, she's a therapist, she's a clinical director, she can handle her own stuff. No, you have to come alongside these really wounded women and uh that have that are traumatized and say that we're not gonna we're not gonna drop you along along the way, which is which is what a lot of treatment centers do just because we're understaffed and everyone's stressed, and the last thing that they want to do is make the recall to the referral source and to the uh and to the to the wife who we're really working for. We're working to we're working to help get this guy back so that he can show up. So so if I had my way, I would I would pay more attention to the external um partners than I would Mike, because Mike is gonna get like there's a story about Mike where he just he gets to this point where he's fighting and he's doing everything, and then he jumps into this lake and he just screams, right? And you know there's gonna be a shift in in Mike's consciousness. Like Mike's gonna be okay, but who are we working for? If we're working for the kids, and we still have to slow Mike down, we still have to so it's a cluster, it's a cluster, but like the reality is um you're working for the system. Yeah. Not you're not in Mike's Mike is actually not the client. The system, the whole system is is the client. And if you're gonna pay attention to anyone, pay attention to someone other than Mike.

unknown 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

So it is, but it gets weird because you you get emotionally tied to the to the client, and then and then all of a sudden it there's there's appropriate ammeshment, and and you and you think you're working for Mike, but you're not.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

You're working for the whole system. Well said. Anybody else want to add? I'll say Valiant did a pretty good job of not listening to me when I was in there, so I don't think that's that's an issue. Um, anybody else on that topic? We do have a couple questions that came in I want to get to as well, but I don't want to leave any.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yeah, Drew, and I'll add on to that, right? Like, I like the way Michael talks about the system, right? Because in this work, gathering collateral, right? Like, we know this, but it becomes very, very, very much apparent how much in denial the client is. One, right, about what's going on, but then you talk to the partner, you talk to the boss, you talk to the business partner, you talk to the lawyer, and you're like, oh, like it's a lot worse than the client thinks it is, right? So really focusing on what's the motivation, and and I like to phrase what Michael said, right? Like the system for me, uh, you know, as a clinician, right? Like, um, I know who my client is, but what's the goal? What's the motivation, right? Like Michael said, it's the families, it's the it's it's the the the restored relationship between the two partners, right? Like it's a better relationship with the client than their children. That's the motivation um behind yeah, the the approach that I take. Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_07 28:47

Well, I would I would also like to add that when we look at them as a whole and we treat them as a whole, then when the client exits, we've also got a safe space for them to go home to. Because if we don't acknowledge the family system, the the parents, the wife, the children, the what have you, then all this work that Valiant has done for the client is almost erased if they get put back into a dysfunctional family system all over again immediately after treatment. So when we work with the family and we we we help heal the dysfunction all the way around, then the client exits into a safer space to then the the chances of them retain um sustaining recovery just is higher because now the family is also aware, they're educated, they understand the triggers and the dysfunction, and there's just a bunch of healing going on instead of a bunch of dysfunction and maybe a little bit of healing over here. So getting everybody on the same page and again approaching it as an as a as a whole, a system, is where it's at.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah. Well, and that's a that's a really good point, Brooke, because the goal of good therapy is to not be in therapy, right? Like that's that's the point. And if all the energy and effort is invested in in what a lot of people would maybe see as like the traditional client, then you've just rearranged a new hostage situation where everybody's going, okay, so you have the information, you tell us what you need, you tell us all these things. Um and that just I mean, that sets it up for disaster from from the get-go. And so I would I would encourage any family members that are you know thinking about this or listening uh to this is really like uh a phrase that I've appreciated is like systems keep us safe. You know, and that systems are able to the beauty of systems is is that you're able to make them redundant, um, so that not putting everything on that one traditional client, uh they could have a bad day, they could be dealing with you know their own you know their own mini crisis. But if we are able to put these redundancies in place, an aspect of the system can fail without full failure. You know.

Relapse Risks After Treatment And Support

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Wow. So good. Um thanks for the questions. Keep them keep them coming in. I see uh Dr. MD's answered a couple in the chat, but I want to I want to do a couple here too. This is from from our friend Ian, our British brother. I should make you I should make you uh do this live so we can hear that beautiful accent of yours. But Ian's from our friends at Lit Path. And I'll do I'll do a quick plug because they're on, they've got the Hope for Healing conference coming up in the Nashville area, Murfreesboro. That's June 25th through the 27th. It's incredible. I mean, they've got so many great resources. Speakers are going to be there. Um, we get to do a session there, and so we're we're excited to partner with them. Two sessions, Dr. Inby says. So that's that's amazing. And it's right down the road from where I live. So that's that's awesome. I get to sleep in my own bed at night and attend the conference. So incredible, incredible organizational lit path. Um, but he says this British multifaceted question alert. What are some of the main struggles that someone faces after leaving treatment and they start to feel the temptations to relapse? And what resources do you provide the family when they know the addict is not fully present and authentic? Question one. Similarly, what resources do you provide the addict when the flags are raised about their behavior? Fantastic multi-part question, Ian. I should have done it in my accent, but I'm afraid that would have not been good. Who wants that one? Jump in.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

Ian, I I love that question, right? Because I think Brooke answered a little bit of that question. Because if we don't look at this family system as a whole, it's almost like back in the day when I was doing substance treatment, right? We've got somebody who's homeless, who has no sense of uh, has no resources, has no money, family's done, they're not engaging anymore. He's burnt every bridge there. We take him into treatment, get him sober for 30 or 60 days, and then we send him right back to the street. And then people are like, why is the recidivism rate 70%? What is that about? And it's like, because we put him back on the street. We're putting him back in the same environment in which that addiction arrived. So I think that's the same thing when we're looking at family structures and we're looking at the whole system. If we can't make a system-wide shift, we're putting this person back into that same structure, that same dynamic that the addiction thrived in. We are not supporting or providing any safety for the addict or the family member, but instead we're just like, hey, we're gonna change the tire, we're gonna have to like make sure there's enough oil in the car and we're gonna make sure the windshield wipers are working, and then we're gonna send them back to you and let's see how that works, right? It's just never really a good um, it doesn't, it doesn't really turn out. That's why I think our recidivism rate for if we look at the big statistics are so bad. Um but when we look at the system and we intervene on Jamie and we say, Jamie, when he gasolites you, that's not okay. That that needs to be addressed. And we give her a voice and we give her some safety and we start addressing that in treatment because it's not gonna go long before Drew gets on the phone and he's like, babe, I think I'm good. Like, I totally know the pain of caught. I'm so sorry. I will never do this again. Our kids, don't you think our children are being harmed by me being gone for so long, right? Like, I'm missing out on so many things. They're gonna remember this the rest of their life. I'm not there for graduation or I'm not there for his basketball tournament. Like, I now I feel like a failed father and I feel so bad about myself. And I would just feel so much better if I was home caring for all of you guys, right? If we're not working with Jamie, Jamie's gonna be like, you're right, my kids are being harmed by this. And now I feel bad because now I'm harming my kids. But when we're working with Jamie, we're like, no, he wasn't present when he was there, right? He wasn't showing up for your kids in a way that your kids deserve to be shown up for. He wasn't showing up for you in a way that you deserve to be shown up for. And you deserve a voice in this relationship, right? And so we start coaching her on how to be like, you know what, Drew, and love you. And yes, while our kids are sad that you're not here and they have some big events coming up, the rest of their life is more important, like the rest of your life is more important, the rest of our life is more important than these few little things that are in the next couple months, right? Bear down, get this, work it through, talk to your therapist, let's build together. And then we don't have to worry about this again in this fashion, right? Because it's not the diet, right? This is a lifestyle change. We are now asking you to make lifestyle changes moving forward. It doesn't continued work when you get home. But if we're not working with her, she doesn't know that, right? She thinks she's sent her car in for a repair, we're gonna change some stuff, oil it up, and then send it back, and everything is gonna be great, but she's not gonna feel that way, right? That sense of safety is still gonna be triggered. So for me, that's the big part of like making sure we keep that family dynamic in there so that there is better outcomes when they get home and their wives know how to call them out in a way that's loving and appropriate, not shaming or guilt-ridden, right? But in a way that says, Hey, Drew, when you do that, that harms me. Let's talk about this a little bit more, right? Or let's go take this to our therapist. So I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Well, a real life go ahead, please.

SPEAKER_07 36:39

Sorry, I'd also like to add we so Valiant offers a family group. Um, they offered a group for the wives and a group for the families. And what we offer is even upon exit, especially upon exiting Valiant, we encourage the families to continue coming to the group. Um, as Stephanie said, a lot of families believe, myself included, when we put our person in treatment, we're like, ah, glad that's over with. Now we can get back to the way things were. Hurry up, send them back, clean them up. I'm I need to carry on. And there is not that is nothing, it's the furthest thing from the truth. But we as family members don't know that. So, like Stephanie said, while the loved one is in treatment, the family members are steadily, uh, if they're you know attending the group, they're steadily learning um the education and and the pieces that we need them to understand what your this is what your person's going through, and this is what we need you to understand about this. We need you to work on yada yada. Then what happens is when the person exits, that's when that's when the the real life kicks in. That's when all these theoretical situations that we've been talking about and the tools that they've been learning comes into play. And it doesn't always go well. Um, and so a lot of times these these I actually I actually had a wife tell me the other day, I thought he was gonna come out kissing the ground I walked on. And it that's not what happened. And so she was not ready for the reality of him exiting treatment. Um, so so one of the resources that Valiant provides for the family members is that they can continue coming to the Valiant Family Support Group well after their person exits. I think I've got families who have been out of Valiant for two or three years at this point, and they're still attending my family groups because they understand that this is not the end. Exiting treatment is not the end. It's actually the beginning of a very, very long journey. And there will be failures along the way. There will be hardships along the way, and they need to stay plugged into their support group and continue to learn this education and receive the validation and continue to heal in their own right, um, because that's what this is. This is like, you know, as Drew and I like to put it, tandem recovery. We we recover alongside one another, behind one another. Either way, we're in each other's in our own lanes, recovering from the effects of the addiction. Um, and that never stops. It carries on, not only for the client, but for the family members too. This is a situation that we are forever going to be healing from and learning about. So I love that specifically because again, not all treatment centers offer that continued support, even once the client exits the treatment.

When A Therapist Rejects “Sex Addiction”

SPEAKER_01 39:15

So good, bro. But I'll just say too, just a real-time example. Um, when I was coming to Valiant, the number one thing, the number one reason why I said I wasn't going to come was because my daughter or our oldest daughter was getting ready to go off to college. And I was not going to miss that. And in my insanity, I was thinking that somehow I was still going to be able to be there and be a part of that move-in weekend. And it was crushing for me and everyone involved. Um, but part of the loving leverage that Jamie used was like, no, there's no scenario by which you wait until after that to go to treatment. You're going now, you're going to miss it. I actually just pulled up a picture this morning. I get emotional thinking about it, of Grace, our oldest daughter and I hugging her weeping because she's get I'm getting ready to leave for treatment and we're gonna miss all that. Well, fast forward almost four years later, next week, we're gonna be down there for her graduation. And I have when I think about it, I feel shame that comes up, but I quickly go into gratitude of like, I keep telling myself, we made it, we're here, like our whole family is gonna be flying down together. I'll be fully present for her at her graduation, and I wouldn't trade it. I know I miss that, and I'll always be sad. I'll carry sadness forever around that. But the fact that you guys were able to get me in here to start that process, and now we get to full circle celebrate her graduation. Um, I mean, it's all I can do not to break down and have a have a weep here, because that's that's the why. That's why, that's why we do it. Um and yeah, just super, super grateful. Got a couple other questions on here I want to get to. Thank you guys for asking because that's awesome. And you can also raise your hand and I can pat you in if you if you want to ask a question. But this one's from someone who just said, I'm stuck. My client, a betrayed partner and husband, active addiction SAA, has gone to couples counseling with PhD psych. The psychologist does not believe in sex addiction and does not like labels. The ship is sinking. He tells her she needs a holiday. Rehab for all would be ideal. That's a tough spot, and I'm grateful you you asked that question. And yeah, that's that's tough. What are your guys' thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 41:48

You know, a lot of people don't like labels, it's fine. If you don't even want to start talking to uh most of these guys, I I say guys because uh we run Valentine all men's facility, but you don't want to really start talking to the suffering addict uh about a label like addiction, like an addict or an alcoholic or sex addicted or any of that crap if if you can avoid it. Like the the conversation is more like, hey, you're in a serious rut. There's no doubt. So so like you you you talk to Ed brought it up earlier. It's like you don't talk to uh specifics because they're gonna take you into the weeds with that. Like, well, how do you know I'm uh uh I'm an addict? Yeah, I've been abusing for like the last year because this and this happened. So you don't you don't want to get into a logistics, semantics, like triggering conversation. What you wanna what you want to do is help people see that this isn't your highest and best self, and this isn't your highest and best life. There's no way that you would be like, this is exactly what I wanted things to look at like when I was eight years old and or 10 years old when I was out on the basketball court thinking I was gonna be a pro-hoopster or something like that. It's like so you want to get into their kind of heart and their soul by talking about that things aren't uh Oprah's not calling to interview you for like the the model life, right? So like let's what can we do to put to to stop the bleeding and to and uh and to give you a little bit of a launch pad back onto the field and some really amazing skills on on and some training in the training room and then on the sideline and then onto the field that that we could actually save you five years of of hell going to outpatient treat treatment, seeing your psychiatrist once a week versus why don't we just go chemo and just do this? And it and it knocks down a ton of bowling pins for you because the reality is she's gonna be happy that you took a that you took the risk. There's so many good things that could happen by you actually uh taking this leap, whether you're an addict or not, than to try to do this on an outpatient level.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

So that I'm just getting the conversation started around how would I start to get I think the the other part other part that I hear under this question, right, is dealing with uh a mental health professional that doesn't believe in sex addiction, right? And and one that believes that this is this is like a stressful family situation, not a fatal family situation, because it sounds like this is a fatal family situation. I think the way that I've dealt with other therapists that don't have any recognition or don't believe in sex addiction is they believe in attachment disorder, right? And so when we're looking at process disorders, those come out of trauma and those come out of attachment disorders. So we're gonna see this attachment with him, mostly, um, of you know, high anxiety, avoidant, these unhealthy attachment cells that are gonna make relationships very difficult in his life. So maybe instead of talking or dealing with the psychologist in in labels of that, it's more about if we can't start treating this attachment disorder, these problems are gonna keep happening within the family system, right? Um, so for me, that's kind of how I tackle um uh psychologists or or mental health professionals that don't believe in in sex addiction, that don't understand the dynamics of it. I really break it down to the core because they they should believe in trauma and they should believe in attachment. So um that's how I would help with the psychologist part of it.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Right. Any other thoughts on that from the gallery? Ed, what's going on in you over there? No, I I think Dr.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

MD, you got it, right? Like there's nobody calls what was it, a PhD psych? Like nobody calls a PhD psych on on a winning streak. You know, and so being able to just like acknowledge that as like, hey, there's there's a reason we're all here, and like Mike said, it's it's not to prep for your interview with Oprah. It's something's not something's not working. And whether, you know, we want to say like I I have a sex addiction or I'm having problems with intimacy or sex. Uh I think there's a lot of opportunity once you get to those core pieces and just say, hey, this is this is a core wound here, and like how is that how's that presenting in your in your relationships, in your marriage, and your understanding of of your potential to recover? Um I also would encourage I don't I don't want to offend anybody, but I would also say like it's okay to get a second opinion. You know, um the joke I always make is like the person that graduates a PhD program at the bottom of their class is still called doctor. So it's okay to shop around.

The Shadow Side Of Leverage

SPEAKER_01 47:21

It's good advice, Ed. Yeah, thanks for saying that. Well, we have a few minutes left, and I wanted to talk just for a minute, and I I'm grateful for the questions that have come in. And if you if anybody else has anything else before we close, I want to make sure we get to that. But um I want to talk about the shadow side just for a minute, just because um, you know, we've talked about all the benefits, but I want to talk about the line between leverage and control, and and have you guys seen it misused by families or professionals? So is there what are what is the what's the potential shadow side of loving leverage like when it when it might go wrong?

SPEAKER_05 47:59

Or is there don't make me call on somebody because I won't be our immediately drive okay in my head is there are so many things that can go wrong, right? Um because I mean we're looking at like I said, we're looking at a system that has allowed an addiction to thrive within it, right? So uh we're looking at a a spouse or a parent who has been gaslit for however long, and so their reality is shifted. It's not it's not based in firm reality anymore, kind of the same as the addicts, not fully based in in firm reality, right? So uh it's like working in the twilight zone and and then like trying to pull people back into this sense of reality. So there are a bunch of things that can go wrong. We've got to look at what the family of origin actually is. What are some of those things? What roles do the different people in this family play? And how can we not completely shift that role, but how can we use that role and our education to become healthy or at least to get them to start thinking in a healthy direction? Because that's gonna take time and process to get them actually behaving healthy as a family dynamic. Um, so for the meantime, it's like being the one sober person in a room full of drunk people, um, where you're like, I don't quite know what's happening right now because everybody else is on a different level than me, but it's really just trying to slowly engage them towards your side of the room, towards that, that sober logical side of the room. Um and that's a lot of uh hard work. You're having to call out a lot of behaviors that are on both sides, on the on the loving leverage side and the addict side that people don't want to hear, right? Because they don't want to hear that they also have a role in this dynamic. Um, but I think that too is where we have to show up with compassion, right? So we acknowledge the way that they're showing up in this family dynamic. We acknowledge how the way they're showing up is actually harming their loved one, not helping their loved one, is engaging that addiction further, not pulling the addiction away. And we have to do it in a way that builds trust and transparency and and connection with us, right? Because they've like Jamie had to trust us. Jamie had to trust the interventionist, Jamie had to trust the people who are surrounding her. And the only way to do that is if we're also transparent with her, right? Like, hey, Jamie, when when you do this, this is how it pushes the addict to thrive, or when you do this, this is this is the repercussions of that. So why don't we look at instead, why don't we try something different, right? Um, and then it's just slow pieces of as we start to show them a different way, as long as those things start to work and they start to see movement that builds trust. It builds, but there are there are moments where you know you're doing the right thing and the adequate response in such a um illogical, impulsive, dangerous way that it can throw that whole dynamic off. And then then we've maybe lost that trust within the family. But um, you know, so I mean it it's it's there's a lot of good that can come from it and there's a lot of risk, right? When we're when we're working with families. There's a lot of negative that can that can pop up. And we just got to kind of go with the flow, right? And and keep holding to that healthy boundary so that we can be that one consistent person in the room who's stouting logic.

unknown 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:30

Well, and I also think, oh, sorry. I'll be real quick with this one. I would also say that many times when the families come to us, they are quite obsessed with their person. Um, their thoughts are always him, him, him, him, him, him, him. Um, and so that is the opposite, that's the other side of this leverage boundary is what have you. Um, it is always revolved around them. How can I get them to fill in the blank, like I said earlier? And so to really bring awareness surrounding the fact that this is not even about you, this is about him. We've got to take it back from him into self and really focus on what we need instead of what we need them to do to make us happy, right? So creating that awareness is is is the work, but it it never starts off that way because most people get in there trying to manage or control the outcome or the person's behaviors. Um, so that is, in fact, that's the shadow side of this, and that's how it starts. And so it's almost like reverse engineer, right? We have to create awareness surrounding why they're doing what they're doing. So that means tell me a little bit about you, tell me a little bit about how you got here, right? Um, and then we have to really, again, show them this has nothing to do with you. And how do we actually it how do we actually enforce this leverage? Like how right? So we have to really kind of break it down because they immediately come in in that shadow space, doing it all the wrong way. And so we have to back up and show them what it's really about, and what it's really about is them. And most of us have lost ourselves completely in this person.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Wow. Ed, what were you gonna say? So good, bro. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yeah, I I was just gonna say, I think if if you're a person listening and kind of going, where's where is the shadow self? Where's the safe self? Um a good solid ground to start on is is this is this rooted in safety? Is this rooted in your well-being? Um, and simple ways to determine healthy boundaries. It's just, you know, when saying yes to you hurts me. When saying yes to you puts me in an unsafe or or or dangerous environment. Um and I think it's also important to know that when when we look at traumas that are often not the source, but a source of of how this is manifesting, they typically fall in one of two categories. One is vacancy wounds, and the other is violation wounds. So making sure to not tie anything to a sense of validation, um, and and also like validation acceptance or love. And to also like explicitly say those things, right? Again, we're dealing with this is an operation, you know, so sometimes you gotta say things three or four times, um, or say the quiet thing out loud, you know, which is like I love, you know, start with like the start with like the big thing, you know, and and what this may sound like is do we both agree that I love you? Do you both do we both agree that I would make tough decisions to keep you safe? You know, and so we really kind of scaffold this to then be able to talk about the hard things, knowing that the safe things have already been framed out. Um you know, the last thing that I would say is if you are a person who loves a person going through this process and you don't have a person, invest in find a person. You know, not everybody has brook. Um, so if you don't have a brook, find a brook or or or call directly. But um I also just want to say like one last piece, which is it is normal to want to punish this person. You are not a bad person because you finally feel like you can breathe, and you also want this person to feel an ounce of what you've been going through for the past five, ten, fifteen years. Saying it's normal doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy, and that's the reason why you should probably also get your own team or or your own support, or your own brook.

Courage To Cut The Tie

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Yeah, well said, yeah. Plug Brooke. You got you got you got a brook now. Congratulations. Um, I I definitely want to be respectful of everyone's time, and this is so good. There's so much more. I mean, we're just barely getting started, but I I would love to, Jamie, pitch over to you because I want you to talk to the people that are listening, the families, the betrayed spouses, the people that might like, because what I know from our story is it was incredibly courageous and brave and costly for you to do what you did. Um, but what what hope, what encouragement would you give to the families listening, the support systems right now who are walking through this season and feel like they might not be able to get through it?

SPEAKER_06 56:48

Um I would say if you're afraid to do it, that's an indicator you need to do it. Just cut the tie. And there's so much healing and hope and freedom that's coming on the other side of that.

Next Roundtable And Closing

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Beautiful. Well, we want to keep this conversation going. I want to say thank you to everyone that's jumped on. Thanks to our panelists. You guys are amazing. Um, this is something we want to continue the conversation and continue to invite people into. Um, so the plan is the third Thursday of every month, we're gonna do something similar to this. We're gonna come together as a round table. We'd love for you to stay a part of it. Um, just kind of mark it on your calendar. You can go to Valiantliving.com slash roundtable where you want to register for this one and just let us know you're coming to the next ones. That's how we can send you the link. Um, the next one we're gonna talk about the future of complex case management. Um, and so we want this to be a community. This is not about Valiant, this is not about beginning in, it's not about our our specific works, it's about coming together. So if you've got people you'd like to see on a panel, if there's topics um that you want us to cover, please let us know so we can we can work that in. Um, but thanks again for everyone being here. This this is gonna be out on podcasts that you can you can share and you can do all that as well. So um any last words from our panel before we go? We're good.

SPEAKER_05 58:17

Thank you guys for joining. We appreciate you uh and hope you have a wonderful week.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Thanks guys. Take care. Well, as we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for being a part of this conversation. Uh, we know these aren't easy topics, there's tension in them, and there aren't always clear answers, but these are the kinds of conversations that we believe actually move things forward. So my hope is that you're walking away with a little more clarity, maybe a little more language, and maybe even a better sense of how to navigate this in your own work or in your own life. Um, if this resonated with you, we'd love to have you join us live. Again, we host these clinical roundtables every month on the third Thursday, and they're always free. Our next one is on the future of complex case management, where we'll be talking about what it actually takes to support these high acuity case as well and how we can better align across clinicians, families, and systems. You can register at dietliving.com slash roundtable. And if you know someone who would benefit from this conversation, feel free to share it with them. Thanks for being here and we'll see you next time.