Mentoring Others with the "Handful of L's" with Dr. Mike Durnin

This episode is long overdue...we had some technical difficulties but are SO excited to finally welcome our wonderful guest, Dr. Mike Durnin! Mike is a leadership expert, educator and coach who walks us through his signature framework, the "Handful of L's." Mike encourages individuals to pursue excellence, resilience, and Christ-centered transformation in life and leadership. Learn more about Mike and connect with him on LinkedIn HERE. Be sure to ask him for your copy of the Handful of L's resource he offered!

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Want more resources? The Leverage Your Time Balance Your Life book is available on Amazon! Visit www.leverageyourtimebook.com to order the book, read the blog, and listen to the podcast.

Discover more about Dr. Walker HERE and Wende HERE

Transcript

Wende 0:00

Today on the podcast, we welcome Dr. Mike Durnin. He is a transformational leadership expert, he's an educator and a coach. And he has an amazing framework called the Handful of L's that we are going to be discussing. So stay tuned on that. And you'll also hear some references maybe to Christmas because we recorded this back in December, and I had a bit of trouble getting it uploaded. But now we are good to go.

John 0:26

I'm so happy to welcome Dr. Mike Durnin to the podcast.

Wende 0:46

Hi, Dad. We're so excited to be doing something different today. Not that our listeners can tell, maybe they can, but instead of we usually do our podcasts live in person. And today we have someone from far away. So we're doing it on Zoom. And and Mike, you're our guinea pig today. Thanks for being with us.

Mike 1:08

Well, thank you so much. And I'm looking forward to this. I think this will be fun. And it it may be a new endeavor, but uh we never go forward in our lives without trying some new things along the way.

John 1:20

That's my way, yeah. Where are you from, Mike?

Mike 1:24

I presently live in Holman, Wisconsin. So it's right outside of La Crosse, Wisconsin, on the far western side of Wisconsin. We're about uh three hours from Milwaukee, but only about two and a half hours from Minneapolis, St. Paul. And right now we have a balmy 27 degrees, and uh you know it's lots of we probably have a good half a foot of snow on the ground right now. Wow.

John 1:54

Awesome. Well, we're talking, we're gonna talk to Mike, not about snow, but about some of the awesome things he's doing. So Mike Durnin is a professor or been a professor, he's been a coach. He even got his uh divinity degree at age 60. And he's using his quote unquote retirement years to really lead leaders. He bridges the gap between knowing good leadership and doing good leadership. And what he told me is that you know, you have to lead yourself before you're able to lead others. So he gives people the mindset and the tools to do that. So welcome, Michael. We are here to learn from you. Please uh let us know about more about what you're doing.

Mike 2:40

Well, you know, as as uh I tell people, you know, I spent my lifetime in in higher education and and I love teaching college students. Uh and I was a college football coach and had a variety of administrative roles in every step along the way, and I've lived in like seven different states because of my work.

John 3:04

Uh because we're a football coach moves around.

Mike 3:08

Exactly. Exactly, John. And and so, but every place I've been has provided some great meaning. And it's one of the reasons why a lot of times in in my talks, I talk about a pilgrimage as opposed to journey. Uh, because the actual definition of pilgrimage is it bring every step brings you a new and expanded meaning to yourself. And and I truly believe every step along the way has brought me uh a lot of new and expanded meaning and a lot of learning. And some of that learning, of course, is from hitting some walls, you know, falling into some setbacks and challenges. Yet when I look back, I I've been blessed by all the things that have happened in my life.

Wende 3:58

Well, I that's a great philosophy that I think that if you're not learning, you're you're you're not growing, right? So you've got to keep lifelong learning, and part of that is experiential learning. And we learn best sometimes from what we think at the time are missteps or mistakes. But we can turn those into positives if we uh if we allow the learning to take place. Yeah, it's good. So I think what what I want to talk about first is you have what you call your handful of L's, the letter L. Tell me about the handful of L's.

Mike 4:35

Sure. Well, it it kind of arrived in and and for the listeners and for the audience, you know, I I'm a football coach, so I love to keep things simple. And you know, there's there's an old saying, if if you're thinking too much when you're trying to play a sport, you're not really good. And and so then I started looking at, all right, what goes into actually leading ourselves? Because and and I use this story because I I believe it really it shapes where the handful of owls come from. If you think about the three little pigs and the wolf and big bad wolf, and one house, one pig makes a house out of sticks, you know, or straw, one does the sticks, but the one house did the bricks, they laid a foundation for handling the big bad wolf. Now, the big bad wolf is in all of our lives, it's setbacks, it's the challenges, it's the the walls we run into. However, when you have a foundation, you can withstand it. And so the L deal with the foundation of leading ourselves. And I believe there's five key components for leading ourselves. And we've already you've already touched on what I consider the very first L. Continue to learn.

John 6:04

And learn not for learn. Yeah, yep.

Mike 6:07

Learn not only what's in the books, and there's lots out there we can learn. Learn, but learn also through conversations with people and and learn from the experiences that come in our lives each and every day. Uh, when we continue to learn, and and I talk about a sacred curiosity. We we we need to be curious about the things around us. And and nowadays, you know, back when John and I were young, uh, you know, we had those Encyclopedia Britannicas that you had to go research things with, and you went to the library. Now we have so many other avenues, and and including AI, and that we can learn things to greater detail, and and that really, I believe, enhances our lives. The second L is what I call continue to laugh. And laugh, not it's it's to find joy in our lives. And you know, if I sit and I hold this water bottle, okay, I know it's with the zoom, it's hard to see. If I hold this water bottle for a long time, it gets heavy. And I can't live, I can't hold it any longer. And when you hold on to the stresses and the strains of your day-to-day life, they become heavy. So you need to have a release, and that's where the continue to laugh comes in. It's an I the idea of rest and renew so that we can continue. We continue to fill our cups so that we're better able to serve others. Uh, and so that there's your first two L's. The third L continue to listen. And now listen is really a part of all of them, but yet I wanted to make sure people understood, and it's not only um the aspect of listening, understand it's more than that. And I talk about and I show in presentations the comparison of water hitting a brick, and that when it hits the brick, that goes all over the place. Yeah, but if water hits a sponge, what does a sponge do?

John 8:29

It soaks it up, soaks it up, yeah. Oh, that's a great analogy.

Mike 8:33

Yeah, so it to me it's really important to listen like a sponge. And and one of the things I love doing when I when I'm giving a talk, uh, I'll actually ask people to go in a quick conversation. Usually I talk about it within the learn, and then I save it. And I come back when I talk about listening and say, okay, I want you now to share what your partner was saying, not what you were saying.

Wende 9:04

Oh, because we really sometimes think about when we're listening in a conversation, what we're gonna say next, how we're gonna respond, how we can relate, but really listening to what the other person is saying with a text.

John 9:16

A lot of times when I do with my patients, I say, now tell me what I just said, and uh see how they interpret that. And it's amazing how they didn't hear what I said or they misinterpreted in a funny way, and that's the same with uh anything that we hear. A lot of times it has more to do what we interpret than what we hear, so it's always good to get that feedback from people about what they heard, and then you can go from there, right, Mike?

Mike 9:50

Absolutely, and that's why when I'm also working with groups, and I learned this, and this is please know most of this is not original Mike Jernan information. This is coming from lots of other people, but you know, the essence of discovery questions, so we should be more engaged to ask questions, and when you ask questions, when people are responding, there are two key aspects to listen for. One is words that might have multiple meanings, okay, and then the other one is words that transmit emotions, yeah. How do I want to follow up with another question to learn even more? So, how how do you how are you defining success? All right, success is a word, I mean, a lot of people a lot use it all the time. Okay, what does that mean? What is success?

Wende 11:00

What does that mean to you? Yeah, so a clarifying question when you hear something that can be um interpreted in multiple ways, or if someone uses a word that is um yeah, that has a lot of different emotions attached to it.

Mike 11:14

So those are the two aspects that I I really focus on within the listen. So now you got three of them. You got learn, you got laugh, you got listen. The fourth L is very simple, you got to live. And for me, that means be be in the arena. Yes, I like that. And and of course, now you're you're talking to an old coach, you know. I could use field, I can use gymnasium, it doesn't matter. You you need to be in the game, you cannot sit on a sidelines. Now, there's no guarantees from being in the game. Yeah. If you're if I will say there is one guarantee, though, that is if you're not in the game, nothing will happen.

John 11:56

Okay, yeah. If you don't swing at that pitch, you're always strike out, right?

Mike 12:01

Exactly, exactly.

John 12:02

So and you'll never get a home run. You might you might strike out, but you'll never get a home run. Exactly. Exactly.

Mike 12:15

You got it, and and and so it to me that that's just paramount in terms of and I and I tell people, so because we're most of us have we have two major fears in our lives, okay? Is the fear of failure and the fear of rejection. And we we need we need to face our fears and know one, none of us are perfect, okay, and two who cares what other people think sometimes. Yeah, now you always want to get feedback. Feedback's important, and learn from feedback. But the critics let don't go by the way, they're always gonna be there. Uh so I mean, and and I'm a great I always give the quote about Teddy Roosevelt, man in the arena. Okay, it's not the critic who counts, nor the person who tells how the strong ones stumbled or the doer deeds could have done the better. You know, the credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valently, who errs, comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms and great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if they fail, at least fails by daring greatly, so that their place shall never be with those cold and timid souls that know neither victory nor defeat.

John 13:44

That's a great quote. And I've read that and heard that many, many times. And Mike, that's worth repeating and repeating slowly and repeating with emotion. So if you don't mind repeating that with coach talk, emotion, put that in there and go slow so everybody will inculcate that into their mind. Go, Mike.

Mike 14:11

I would love to. You see, it's not the critic who counts, nor the person who tells how the strong one stumbled or the doer deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the person who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if they fail, at least fails by daring greatly, so that their place shall never be with those cold and timid souls that know neither victory nor defeat.

John 15:19

All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike 15:25

And and and so you need to understand there's a story behind that quote for me in my life, though. Is one of the most influential people it that was in my life was my father. My father was a fairly successful businessman involved with a lot of different things. And in 1999, at the age of 67, and we're not doing 6'7 jokes today, okay. Oh boy, especially because I just turned 67 last week, and uh but age of 67, uh passed away from heart disease. But years prior to that, and I was probably a young man, early 30s, he took a plaque that he had at his office, that plaque, that sane, and gave it to me. And no matter what state I was living in, no matter where my office was, that was always the very first piece that went up, and it was always the last piece to go down. And there is not a talk I give that I don't use that quote, and that's in honor of my father.

John 16:37

Wonderful, amazing, that's beautiful, my that's beautiful.

Mike 16:42

And so so there now you got the four four L's, but there's gotta be a fifth, all right, and that's the L of Love. And and to me, you know, I'm a big proponent in servant leadership. Now, to me, servant leadership is not easy, it actually is hard because you have to combine that care and compassion for others, but also be willing to have those tough conversations and the honest conversations that need to happen. And Chris Voss in his book, Never Split the Difference, he talked about unconditional positive regard, even even towards those terrorists, because he was a FBI hostage negotiator, and he found that when he gave unconditional positive regard, he could actually sway their thought process. And of course, in in hostage negotiation, remember, there's no 50-50 give and take. All right. So if you got 10 people, you know, it's not like you keep five and do whatever you want, give me five back.

John 17:52

Right. Okay, it has to be all or nothing, it's gotta be all or nothing.

Mike 17:56

But yet, so often he f he found his most success came from basically, and this is where I talk about sacred presence, honoring the person you're talking with, honoring the person you're with. All right, not that you agree with them, not that you know you're gonna take everything they say and say, okay, I'm gonna change my mind, but you bring that presence to them. And it's there's empathy, there's care, and there's compassion, and there's a willingness to know more about the person. And so uh to me, those five L's, you know, the learn and the laugh and the listen, the live and love, that's the foundation for leading ourselves. And it can apply to anything we do, it can you know, apply to any industry or endeavor we're taking on. It's all the foundation, because without a foundation, and I know this as a coach, you also there's base skills you had to know. There's a foundation for playing the game of football. There's a foundation, all right. You know, doctors have a foundation as well, and then they have expertise that come from it, but without a foundation, you never really completely comprehend all the other aspects of this. So it starts with that foundation, and I should share this. There is a bonus, Al. Oh, tell us the bonus there has because we all love a bonus. All right. I was a kid who grew up, you know. What's the prize at the bottom of the cereal box?

Wende 19:38

Right, me too.

Mike 19:40

All right, now it's like I remember this. What's the prize in the happy meal, you know, that you get out of McDonald's? But the bonus L is legacy, and and to me, legacy it's it's more than what we leave with others. It's the what because when we open our minds and open Open our hearts and open our souls. As we continue to learn, laugh, listen, live, and love, we are now open to the legacy of others within our lives. And that to me is the most beautiful part about it that there is right in ties it all up in a bow.

Wende 20:23

It's good. So yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say my husband has on our chalkboard. So the L is very important to all of us because my husband has written on the chalkboard. Live life, comma, leave a legacy. Those are his guiding principles. And so that all ties up together. And I had told you on email, Mike, that I have five L's well. So all of ours is are the same, except instead of um I I think instead of live, live as one of yours, right? Yeah, I have I have um list the blessings as my other L. So I you know as a gratitude journal. So that's my my fifth L is Lyft, but it all we have such synergy here, this conversation.

John 21:14

I'm loving this. That's very good. I like those L's now. I'm gonna add a little fruit frivolity to this and go back to Vince Lombardi, Mike. And Vince Lombardi, the Green Bay Packer, great football coach. The Packers had lost the game, and he was irate in the locker room, and he was yelling, boys, we're going back to the fundles. You got to do the fundamentals if you're gonna win in football. You got to black and you've got you got to block and you've got to tackle the fundamentals. And he picked up a football and said, Boys, this is a football. And Max McGee said, Hold on, coach, you're going too fast.

Mike 22:06

I love it. Now, having grown up in Wisconsin, I lived in Wisconsin until I was 16. I still remember watching the Packers. And, you know, people sometimes say, I wonder how anybody could play for somebody who is that intense and and the like. Here's what they don't know. Is and I had the great fortune, um, you know, when I first got into coaching, there were members of Vince's staff that were still alive, still actively involved with either scouting or doing things in the NFL. I got a chance to meet some of them. And what people didn't realize, of course, you didn't have the media attention, you didn't have you know players going, all those things. Behind the scenes, Vince Lombardi was uh deeply cared about players. And he would spend a lot of time with players, getting to know them, helping them. You know, he was big, you know, he wouldn't, they were trying to go to a restaurant one time, and the restaurant was they were playing down south. Restaurant was not gonna let him in because there were black players on his team. And he said, Well, they said the black players could eat in the back. He said, Well, we eat as a team, so if you're not gonna allow us to eat as a team, we're not eating here. Sorry, you're not getting our business.

Wende 23:39

Yeah, for him.

Mike 23:41

And and so he had this deep care because you know, as the saying goes, and this is I I use this was in my talks, and I've used this for decades. You know, people don't care what you know until they know that you care.

John 23:55

Can I interrupt here? Can I interrupt? Go ahead, John. Underline what you were saying, and that was with Jerry Kramer, the great guard for the Green Bay Packers football coach. Uh, Vince Lombardi was yelling at him, screaming at him all the time, just raking him over the coals day after day. And one day, Jerry Kramer was sitting in the locker room, downcast, looking down, and Vince Lobarty came by and laid a hand on Kramer's shoulder and said, Jerry, the reason I get after you is because you can be great. So that's caring, and that's also motivating the people. So you can motivate people, Mike, what you're saying with caring. And I like all the things you said, all five of your L's, and Wendy, I like your L lift up, and then the bonus is uh legacy, and Mike, I'm trying to build a legacy myself, and I can't get anybody to come to my funeral. I'm worried about people coming to my funeral. So, Mike, what I'm gonna do, in fact, you might be on my list. I'm gonna give a free Xanax prescription to everybody who comes to my funeral. So if you want some Xanax, line up and I'll give you some if you come to my funeral. And Mike, you're such a good speaker, you can do a eulogy, and I will give you two months supply of Xanax.

Mike 25:39

All right, I love it. I hope we I hope we don't have to do that for a long time, though, John.

Wende 25:46

A long time. And I've he's given you that uh laughter L in spades. That's his favorite.

Mike 25:54

Exactly. I love it.

Wende 25:55

It's the laughter. He loves to make people laugh. So I'd love to hear um, you know, you could be kicking your feet up and retirement and you know the saying, eating bonbons, sitting by the pool, doing, you know, just relaxing and caring only for yourself. Why do you what motivates you, Mike, to leave this legacy for other people?

Mike 26:21

All right. Part of that has to come from my father, who was unable to really go very far. But my mom is actually still alive at 93.

Wende 26:33

Wonderful.

Mike 26:34

And this is my mom was a lifetime nurse. She was a third shift nursing supervisor. She worked third shift so that she could come home, get kids off to school, take a nap, be up when people came home from school, didn't take another nap and go to work. And through it all, though, she the mindset was, and and I truly believe this, is service is a lifestyle. It's not an event. And and through it all, she continued to serve. She served, and when she retired, she had over, and she's won a couple awards in the state of Indiana. Uh, she's won a Mother Teresa Award, she's uh won the Indiana Golden Hoosier Award. Don't ask what a Hoosier is, we're not going there. So, but uh and and the Golden Hoosier is because she had almost uh 20,000 hours worth of volunteer work at a hospital.

Wende 27:38

Amazing.

Mike 27:39

And and so I was blessed to be raised in a family where you give. And and so uh and and I see people that and hear of stories, and I've you know, people need help. And and and I, you know, I talk about what's you know, the two tools that I always talk about, no matter what, that go into the building of foundation. One is remain calm. Uh you know, all great leaders do that, they have a a knack for doing it. It comes from practice, and it's anticipating, you just kind of know and embrace the things that are gonna happen.

John 28:28

The other one is under pressure, yeah.

Mike 28:31

And then the other one is you're gonna need others because none of us do this alone. And so at times you're the one who needs help. At times there's somebody there to help you, sometimes there's somebody there to indirectly help the person who is helping you, and then there's others times where there's all kinds of people that are basically the encouragers, and we need to understand and embrace we need to be able to fulfill all those roles at some point in our life.

John 29:04

Yes, so to me, if you're not uh growing, if you're not growing, you're dying. So one of the reasons you do this is to keep on growing and keep on living.

Mike 29:16

Well, exactly. Well, see, you know, the old coach is saying is you either get better or you get worse, you never stay the same. Yeah, and so I I want to keep going as long as uh humanly possible. Uh and and that's really important to me. And so I want to give back. And uh I haven't even touched upon the other aspect of my life that really I had an event back in 2010. At the time I was the head football coach at Luther College, small private college in Iowa. I had recruited this amazing young man, a young man who was, you know, in essence, that all-American boy in high school. Football, basketball, track, uh, great student, unbelievable family, and just a faith-filled family, the whole bit. Comes to Luther College in August. In October, we're playing the game. He's on special teams, okay, as a true freshman. And in the third quarter, October 16th, 2010, he's running down the field and goes in to make the tackle and doesn't get up. And after, you know, I mean, we had the whole thing, backboard ambulance taken away. As we're finishing later that day, as I stand on the field and talking to the team, I can hear the life flight helicopter headed from Decor, Iowa to Rochester and Mayo Clinic. And as I'm coming off the field, you know, the athletic trainer said, Well, he's on his way there. He's fractured C3 and C4. And they're saying there's only a 3% chance of any movement below the neck at this point.

Wende 31:14

Oh my goodness.

Mike 31:14

And I still remember, though, getting into the hospital, and my wife and I were walking down that evening, going down the hallway to the waiting room, and I could see one figure in the hallway, and it was this young man's mom. The same mom who seven months earlier I sat at lunch while the athletes were entertaining our recruits, and I did what every college coach in America does. You make that promise that you're gonna take care of their son. And and there she was standing, knowing that their son's getting ready for surgery. And I remember she turned around, she goes, Mike, they're saying only a 3% chance of moving below the neck, but we're gonna believe in that 3%.

Wende 32:08

Wow.

Mike 32:09

And the story goes on. So you know, Chris goes through rehab and all these things, and he realizes he was hurting NCAA games, so he actually has lifetime catastrophic insurance. So if he needs things done for his home and so forth, that would always be taken care of. He's noticed right away that he was very fortunate fortunate that way. Because and we're this is you know, nothing political here. Insurance companies, after a very short time in these situations, will send you home and you fend for yourself. Well, he said that's not fair. And so him and his father started a foundation. So in 2012, the Chris Norton Foundation was was founded. And Chris has lived his life in order to make a difference. Chris has left a legacy that I can't even come close to duplicating for anybody's life. And Chris now is a great public speaker. There was there was a movie. He's written two books, one with his father that kind of details this whole scenario. Then he wrote one afterwards with his wife, uh, who he met after he got injured.

Wende 33:40

Okay.

Mike 33:41

And now, as you say, it's a wife. He also has adopted five children, by the way. Oh my goodness. He's only 30, he's only 35 years old, okay, at this point. And our foundation, we basically fundraise and provide for grants, uh, rehab facilities. We'll put grants into our foundation. And then we also host every summer a wheelchair camp. We'll have 25 young people who either have spinal cord or neuromuscular challenges, spend most of their life in a wheelchair, and they come to this camp. It's a week-long camp or a Sunday through Thursday camp. And not only do the kids come, but their families are invited as well. And it's all expenses paid once they get there.

Wende 34:30

Wow.

Mike 34:31

All their lodging, all their food, all the activities. And so we do that. And there actually is a movie on Chris's life, and it's called Seven Yards. And the reason it's called Seven Yards is on the day of Chris and Emily's wedding, at the end of the wedding, she helps get him out of his chair and they walk seven yards down the aisle.

Wende 34:55

Oh my goodness. So I gotta check that out.

Mike 34:59

It's 90 minutes, and the only thing I recommend, if you have any emotions whatsoever, make sure you have a box of Kleenex.

Wende 35:09

Make sure you have a Kleenex. Oh my goodness. Wow. So that really puts everything into perspective on an event like that, where make the most of your time.

Mike 35:21

Yeah, and so that that event has shaped, and you say, you know, why do you keep doing what I'm doing? I look at Chris and what he has continued to do when people said, you know, most people would just say, no, I'm done. Right. He doesn't even come close to that. And I figure if Chris can keep if Chris can keep doing that, I need to keep doing that too.

Wende 35:46

That's a great inspiration. And I think, Dad, that's a great way to wrap up this wonderful conversation with that wonderful story and inspiring story.

John 36:01

And uh we'll add another Luther College, so that makes seven and uh so uh Mike, we've really enjoyed having you. Great job. Uh, wish you the very best. You're doing good for a lot of people. Keep it up.

Wende 36:20

Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Mike.

Mike 36:23

I was just gonna say thank you both so much. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and and and as I close every talk I give, it's like, hey, keep your hearts and your souls and your minds open and continue to learn, laugh, listen, live in love, and you will be blessed by the L of Legacy. Just like your audience, you two and your audience have blessed me today.

John 36:50

Well, thank you, Mike. That's amazing. How can people learn more about you?

Mike 36:55

Sure. The best way is to get on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, Mike Dernan. And there's not many of us. Uh, I have the initials D-M-I-N at the end of my name, which is a Doctor of Ministry. And uh feel free to connect with me there. Uh, they also can go to Mike Dernan at Via Crucesleadership.org uh and get a hold of me there. And I'd be more than happy. Anyone getting a hold of me, more than happy to send you. I have a document that has the handful of L's on, it has a little strategies involved, how to do each L.

Wende 37:32

Excellent, excellent, great. Well, we'll put those resources in our show notes so people can just click the link and find your LinkedIn and um make sure that people can connect with you that way. Thanks so much again for coming on. I hope you have a blessed day.

Mike 37:49

Thank you very much.