The ADHD MUMS Pod
Real talk from two ADHD mums in the thick of parenting, chaos, and clutter. Gen and Claire share honest highs and lows of neuro-divergent life. We are Mums, but you don't have to be to listen!
We share real, unfiltered stories about parenting, neurodivergence, and daily struggles like executive dysfunction, disorganisation, overstimulation, and Mum guilt. We also celebrate the wins—big or small—with honesty and laughter.
We're both AFAB and biological mums, but this space is for all parents, ADHDers, curious minds, and —even your pets. Everyone’s welcome.
We do swear though, so you probably need headphones if there's kids around!
The ADHD MUMS Pod
Why We Hide: Masking in Neurodivergent Motherhood
We explore masking as ADHD mums—what it is, how it starts, and why it drains us—then share ways to unmask gently without losing safety. Stories from school, work, family, and the school gate show how expectations and stigma push women and kids to perform “fine” while struggling underneath.
• Masking defined as hiding ND traits to appear neurotypical
• Everyday masking examples in speech, routines and stillness
• Gendered expectations and why women are diagnosed later
• Burnout from school, work and social performance
• Stigma, culture and safety as drivers for masking
• Motherhood pressure and double masking at home and school
• Kids who mask versus kids who don’t and after‑school releases
• Family judgment, boundaries and modeling authenticity
• Practical unmasking steps and micro‑experiments
• Creative outlets, therapy and integrating the self
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Further TW: This podcast references at times: alcohol abuse, depression, mood disorders, medical emergency, miscarriage, traffic accidents, grief and loss, teen pregnancy, anxiety, abuse, PDA, low self esteem, and anti-depressant medications, disordered eating, hoarding...
All music written and produced by Ash Doc Horror Lerczak.
Artwork by Gen
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See you next Wednesday! xxx
Well the ADHD mums. I'm Claire. And I'm Jan. And we're here to talk to you about a subject that is quite relevant to people like us.
SPEAKER_01:In fact, I turned my head to you with a massive plastered on grin just then, didn't I?
SPEAKER_00:I think I was showing you that I was being friendly and receptive. She sure was. And we're putting on these strange voices to make ourselves sound like lovely ladies. It's like we're masking our faces and our vocal cords. There it is, she giving away. We're here to talk about masking. You hear about it so much in these ND quarters, but do you really know what it is? And do you think you can never make yourself stop?
SPEAKER_01:And do you relate it to ADHD and motherhood? Oh because there we go yet again. It's the trifecta, it's the ADHD and the motherhood. And then the masking.
SPEAKER_00:Oh okay. I was like, where's she gonna get the third thing from? The kids. The kids that come with the motherhood. Oh, okay. They're separate from the motherhood to make it a trifecta. Make it fit, make it fit. So do we know what masking is, Jenny? Um tell me, tell me.
SPEAKER_01:Let me let me make sure that that what I think is true. Well, tell me what you think first. So I think it's basically trying to fit in, it's like this chameleonic tendency to hey, I like this one, hey girl, to um to yeah, not stand out, to like because we're quite aware that we're um different, I think, from a young age. Yeah. And so we learn to mimic. Um and then I think it's also a kind of quite like logical thing of like not wanting to be seen for who we are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Or you know, shame.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So you're right, it's hiding, minimizing or camouflaging your ND traits to appear more neurotypical.
SPEAKER_02:Normal.
SPEAKER_00:Or normal. Yeah. So in social situations we do it a lot, and it's like putting your normal costume on to fit in. Yes. And you it's things like forcing yourself to be still when you want to stim.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, god, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So you don't annoy people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like things like copying others' voices, gestures, and routines.
SPEAKER_01:So weird. So definitely get that voice one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh I do.
SPEAKER_01:And I find that quite embarrassing. Yeah. That's an adult, it feels really like stupid.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and it's part of normal social interaction to like copy gestures and stuff and voices. It's not just an endy thing that, but we do do it a lot. And the thing about like copying people's routines, like I used to like go to lunch with the people in work in a room that I didn't want to go to, listen to their conversations that I didn't want to listen to just because like really, I just wanted to go outside and not sit in this windowless room with like loose women on. But um I thought you were saying with loose women. Uh well, I wish they were, then it'd be a bit more interesting. Um, and eventually I did stop doing it, and they all thought I was a weirdo, but so what? I didn't have to sit with them. Um, it can be things like uh perfectionism of over-preparing, so like arriving early, working hard, over-organizing when you're actually struggling.
SPEAKER_01:Having like asserting like o overt control over your home environment. I think about that one. People that manage to mask by having an extremely orderly, overly kind of tidy home.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but they have had to put in like double the effort.
SPEAKER_01:They're exhausted by it.
SPEAKER_00:To do that, yeah. And I used to do a lot of extra hours in work rather than say, you've given me too much work, do you know, like because I wanted to like appear like I was capable of that workload that they deemed normal. But I was going over and above what other people would have done because other people would have just gone, it's time to go home, I'll go home now. Um things like smiling when you're actually anxious or overwhelmed. Um and it often starts alien life in school as a coping mechanism.
SPEAKER_01:And we know as women, we're primed for that as well, don't we? It's it's it's kind of public mass publicised at this time, isn't it? That like women are kind of groomed as girls to be smiley and more, I don't know, placable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that was actually the next point I was gonna make that women are actually better at it at masking because of the societal expectations to appear calm, capable, etc. And that means that research suggests this is why women are often diagnosed later, and it leads to really increased emotional exhaustion for them. And um have you got any examples of when you felt like masking caused you like really bad exhaustion? Exhaustion. I always get that word exhaustion. Exhaustion. Exhaustion.
SPEAKER_01:Let me think. When masking caused me exhaustion. I think just when I was younger, quite a lot younger, um still attending like social things with friends when I didn't really didn't have the energy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And trying to like act like myself, but I'm thinking of like a phase of like where I think I was depressed really. Do you know what I what I'm realising is like I have very few memory concepts of me masking because I think I'm so I'm so like done with that for so long that I kind of just like you talking about going for lunch before, I was thinking, God, I just wouldn't.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I just can't relate to that. That like I I just absolutely wouldn't. Yeah. I I'd be quite blunt about like, well, we work together, don't we? But you know, I wouldn't feel the need, like, but then again, I'm sure I ha it hasn't always been like that. I suppose I can think of certain family that are mask around. Yes. Elders who are very important to me because they've been like my support my like support growing up, but then the older I've got got, the more I've the less we've had in common. Yeah. As I've got you know, opinions and morals and my own values, um, the less we gel in terms of who we really are rather than just our family dynamic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I suppose I mask around certain people in that respect, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I myself as well as you, because we've been on a bit of journey of self-discovery with Randy, I don't mask so much now. And um, but like definitely like when I was in school, I masked till I was about, I would say till I was about 16, and then I suddenly had a bit of a revelation, like I literally would rather have no friends than have to sit and listen to this shit anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, weirdly, I feel like for me the school version was like I was unmasked. I didn't there wasn't a name for what what I was or anything, but I had so many friends, and I think that's because I was like quirky and like at high energy and like kind of like super deep and like this combo of like dead silly, yeah, but also very deep and caring. And I just but they were all kind of not exactly shallow friendships, but I didn't have one group or anything. I just went around loads of groups of friends and I was like a visiting member of loads of groups.
SPEAKER_00:I was very popular, I was in with the popular girls.
SPEAKER_01:We were all like you that requires a lot of masking.
SPEAKER_00:It does require require a lot of masking, and it's like bitching every time someone leaves the room and all that. And I just was like, I fucking can't be asked with this. I'd rather have no friends, and I just like started six home and put myself in a corner with no no friends, like on purpose. Wow. Just rejected it because I had burnt out, I think.
SPEAKER_01:It's given me my so-called life energy. This is the classroom I'm picturing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I was a bit like that, and I was like carving band names into the um like desk and all that. And then I found my friends who shared interests that were not my social peers. They were like, but yeah, that's how it it worked out, and I was totally exhausted by work as well. I had a burnout from that. Yeah. So yeah, it can affect you really badly. And let's have a little think about why. Why do we mask?
SPEAKER_01:We've had a little talk about it, but well, yeah, there's so there's so many aspects to it, isn't there? There's like the social pressure of just expectations from us as women. Yeah, definitely. Us as whatever other like subcategories of like human community we fall into. So there could be like cultural aspects for every different person, like what's the cultural expectations of the daughter, or you know, this or that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think just stigma, you know, like wanting to fit in is like a quite a normalized thing, isn't it? Like being different in so many ways is still seen as something that's not not desired.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I had at the school gates as well. I wanted to appear normal because I wanted to appear like I'm a capable mum. I can do this. Yeah, I'm a grown-up like all you were younger than me but seem much more grown up.
SPEAKER_01:But then I still marvel at the dress she wore to the first school disc. She wore some sort of dress with like demonic sigils all over it from Dysterbia or something. Yes, and I was like, oh.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it adds satanic pen to ground. I'm sorry. But I was just like thinking that's quite nice.
SPEAKER_01:I think past experiences obviously come into it, so we probably grow up being criticized and punished when we're like acting too ADHD or too autistic, or you know, we're not reading the cues, we're not um we're over-emotional, yeah, we're hyper, we blurt things out, we interrupt, we all of this, and we experience constant negative feedback for it. Like that's as young people, formative.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So then we learn, get mute. Yeah, like how to mute all of those like traits and avoid that criticism, which again, as we acknowledge RSD so often, yeah, the criticism isn't just landing in the kind of again, normal, the neurotypical way. It's it's a deep cut. Yeah. So I guess we we learn that pretty young. And then there's also then when we get older as women, we're we're obviously speaking from a perspective of being like living this life as mums.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um we have a lot of internalized expectations of motherhood, like who we think we're supposed to be, yeah, how we want to be. We want to be the perfect mums, we think we're supposed to be organized, calm, you know, the provider of like all different layers of things that are totally adverse from each other. We're supposed to provide like entertainment and like stuff, you know. We have to work hard to have money to have stuff, you know. We're supposed to work as well. It's not supposed to be like we're not really like we're we're feminists, aren't we? We don't picture a life of like having a a partner who brings the money in or whatever. Like I've never had that, and and also we we're like self-internalised ableism, like we we there's a lot of shame around accepting benefits, yeah. To fill the deficit of the fact that we're not gonna sustain work in the same way. That's really hard for me.
SPEAKER_00:I think we mask as well for for to g to have friends sometimes or to get a boyfriend or whatever. Definitely, because like I I've masked for like men just because like I've tried to pretend to be something else to like get the man I want.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I've done like when I was younger, I would never do that now. Um I'm with friends as well, you know. People do want other people, like they can all get together to like be like that's someone different, and we can all talk about that person.
SPEAKER_01:So you don't you learn not to want to be that person?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's whether it's disability, whether it's race, whether it's whatever, whatever. You can easily become that person if you're different, can't you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. Like I like again, I feel like I kind of consciously learned, I think through others, I think through a close friend when I was in my early 20s, and I saw how much she would change with each different partner. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, like I'm late teens, and I was like, Well, I'm I'm never gonna do that. Because like I've noticed that when she drops that and it's dropping the mask, yeah, when she becomes her full authentic self, they're not compatible. They're like at that base level, you know, not even about it being like, oh, he doesn't want her anymore or he rejects her. But when she's trying to just function as herself, they aren't compatible because their union was based on this false self. So I think quite early on I noticed it and analysed it and was like, I'll never do that. And I think also much closer to home, like I like my mum has started to realise what I just saw as her like you know, weird aspect of her character.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's super anxious masking, just kind of like me seeing it, like, oh, why does she do that weird twitchy, like weird grinning, twitchy, awkward thing? When you know, like I thought it just was like cruel in my thought processes about it, you know, as a teenager who resented her for a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And now when I look at it, I'm like, God, like she was masking that was her attempt to mask, and kind of like she doesn't know how to like how do I person, you know, like I think there's an element of that in it for me, the how do I person. Like that's the thing with boys where I'm saying, like, I changed my personality with uh with partners. There's a there's a bit where I didn't actually know who I was anyway. Yeah, well that's the comedian thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:So it's not it's not like a contrived like I'm gonna fake being like this. Yeah. But it's like so much of it is unconscious. If you're quite floaty in terms of what am I, who am I, what what do I feel like? What do I like? What do I talk like? What do I do?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then you attach your bonding with someone who you do like.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I guess it's quite it's quite comprehensible that you would like adapt into things that they like, things that they are, things that they are leading with.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I went straight from school to my first partner who was very controlling and abusive. So I totally just became whatever he wanted me to be because I was scared, and then totally into the next partner who I was just like loved so much. I'd wanted to be what he wanted me to be. And it wasn't until I was single I was able to get back to who I actually was.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Um there's there's consequences to it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:And we've mentioned already exhaustion, like it's so hot, so tiring to be someone else all the time, um, and go against your own sort of drives and instincts, yeah. Giving yourself what you want, like me going for lunch with those ladies every day. That's the only bit that like that was the only half an hour a day that I wasn't working, and I wasted it being with people who like were making me rage inside with the things they were saying and their opinions and all the diet talk over lunch every day, and it was so annoying. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:But that's the thing, we're kind of quite we're we're focusing a fair bit on like the personality dynamic, but I think it's also just your expectations of yourself in terms of energy levels, isn't it? And energy consumption, so it's also just like the exhaustion is just maybe not even from like such a literal sense of like wearing a mask in terms of how you appear, yeah, but just masking by trying to live by neurotypical standards in terms of time, timekeeping and downtime and all that.
SPEAKER_00:Especially if you do the thing that I was doing, which was like doing more work than I needed to. Um and you can through that like disconnect from yourself as well. Yeah. Like uh you if you just like think you are that person.
SPEAKER_01:Ugh. But there's a there's a dissonance, right? Because if you're not, you're gonna feel like shit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it can cause a big disconnect from your own like feelings and your own personality and the own your own drivers, your own things that you want.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, a lot of what a lot of what I've been learning on me um counselling psychotherapy training is about like the um the self and like the the the less, you know, like the less you are like your true self, or the less you project like who you think you are or who you want to be and all that, that's most people's problem. Yeah. And it's all caused by like what they've experienced in the world, what societal pressures are and that. So this is really making sense with the problem.
SPEAKER_00:Because um I think in some of the person-centred counselling and stuff like that, the aim is for the client to find a place of authenticity, isn't it? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And if you are, I'm asking, um, your struggle can go unnoticed. So no one knows that you need help.
SPEAKER_01:So diagnosis of things doesn't come.
SPEAKER_00:It can lead to a delayed diagnosis as well, but even like in like the workplace or something, you or like just family get-togethers and things like that. If you if they don't know you're struggling, then they can't help you.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:So it does lead to delayed diagnosis, especially in women, and there's an emotional toll of it all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and that can lead to things like substance abuse, self-harm, um, you know, ways to escape.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And self-harm can sometimes be a way to connect with your body as well. And if you're feeling disconnected. And you know, in our extreme cases, there is a correlation between like people with ADHD and crime ending up in prison and stuff like that. And so that can come from the emotional toll. And it can to like people in the workplace and other things. If we invisible as it goes away, our loads, then you can't get you can't get the help.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, in motherhoods as well, it's like if you're not asking for help, you're like, I'm coping, everything's fine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No one's gonna help you, are they? Because they don't know that you need it.
SPEAKER_01:True. And here's here's a way in which, again, this is weird. This like discussing masking is making me realise how long and how hardcore I've been unmasked.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think we've both worked really hard together at that through our podcast and stuff, haven't we? And maybe you've been unmasked for longer than me, because you say like in school you are just yourself and all like this. But um, I think for me it was when I became single and I was just a mother alone in the world, and I was like raw. Raw and trying trying to be like as well, you know, when you have a relationship split up, you're like, I want to get rid of all of that. Um I was just like a blank and I was like, I need to f remember who I am again because I feel like when I was a child, I was myself. So I kind of went back to like thinking, who was I on a start, or who was I in that like phase when I was 16 years old? And I was like, fuck this, I don't need any of them friends, like I'm just gonna be me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so it took that for me to get back to it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's made me think of like the fact that what you were saying about like seeking support, and if you don't and all that, thinking about the relationship I've developed with this the kids' school over the years was like I've got, you know, I've got my neurodiversity, it's disabling at times. I've got other things going on, yeah. Um, and I was, you know, when my eldest started that school, I was in like extremely like acute post-trauma.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, complete like destabilized life stage, you know, it was like rebuild was just beginning, and I was in a state, and I was into a new job that was, you know, there was the it was just I had no time to touch the ground, but it was within, you know, a year or so I was just starting to kind of process everything, and my eldest was starting to become like much more extreme with her needs. Yeah. And I just begun a very open, honest, self-reporting really relationship with the school, saying, Look, you know, this is what she's like at home, this is what it's like for me. I'm struggling into really just to let them know what her needs were first and foremost, but also be really honest and expressive with what she the atmosphere she was in at home. So it's like if I'm not feeling that I'm coping very well, yeah. And I mean, although it always turned out that like it was kind of like, no, you're doing better than most people, yeah. But because of my own experiences of like, you know, emotional abuse and neglect and stuff behind closed doors and no one knowing. Yeah. I just wanted and that just because of my mum being neurodivergent alone, not coping.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I wanted to be very open about my status with that.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm really proud of you for that. I think you'd done amazing because I don't think it's something I could do, is like I was always scared to be like people think I wasn't doing good enough and you know, take my child away from me and things like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, not that there was ever anything else that was like, not with either of us, but it's like worry about it, isn't it? I think yeah, I would have felt shame on masking about like not being the perfect mother.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, this is the thing, isn't it? So you're masking in the ADHD. Yeah. Then you're masking in motherhood.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then you're masking in motherhood with neurodivergent kids as well. Yeah. So this is a layer that I have experienced more than any, I think. Right. Is like basically that, yeah, as mums, we're feeling the pressure to be like stable, like safe, in control, on track, on target. Yeah. Um, and we're struggling with that all the time because of emotional dysregulation, executive dysfunction, or RSD, all the stuff. Like it's a big struggle for me.
SPEAKER_00:Along with just the normal struggles that every p parent has.
SPEAKER_01:And money and cakes and costumes and homework, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But like we're living in this like capitalist society where everyone's gotta work really hard all the time and yeah, definitely. It's just like a hard job, isn't it? Being a parent at this time in in history.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely. And then if we're masking, it we we've probably we've said how energy consuming it is. So we've got less energy to do the things like try and co-regulate how we want to, or you know, we're more knackered and we're more emotionally drained.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and then what about our neurodivergent kids? Yeah. Like they're masking, or they probably are. Yeah. So then the ones I've got one who masks and one who doesn't.
SPEAKER_00:Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um the unmasked one so far has proven easier to parent because they let off steam all through the school day. You know exactly what's going on. They kick off to the teachers, they just, you know, they they let that the it's the Coke bottle analogy, isn't it? They let I still haven't done that with that cheap lemo and showed them the experiment of shaking it up and showing me kids.
SPEAKER_00:And then if like so they're shaking it up in school where they're masking. Yes. And then at the end of the day, when they come to you, it comes off and it bursts.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:That's the analogy, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, it's like every small slight that they experience through the day is another shake, a little shake, a little shake, a little shake. Um, whereas kids that aren't masked are like in a little letting it out in tiny little bursts.
SPEAKER_00:So my son masks all day in school, I know he does, and he asked him for like since he was little.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so as soon as he would come out of school, he was kicking off.
SPEAKER_01:We're the same now. I've named it the after school cry with with the other one who masks. It's just won an award for like happiness and being an absolute angel. And even though I'm proud and like chuffed, I know the truth. Yeah. So I'm kind of there thinking, oh, I don't know how I feel about this, like rewarding kids for like being a dreaming angel. Because no, because like happiness isn't just quantified by the fact that they're smiling, you know. And I saw this documentary the other day that made me think that won't go into it because it was grim. But it was it was this woman saying that people didn't know she needed help when she was in school because she was so smiley, like she was being abused, basically, is the is the thing, but no one knew because she just had this constant smile on, and she was so happy and all that. And I thought, God, rewarding kids for being happy at school feels like the darkness.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's disgusting. Like what? So kids who are sick, uh don't get in a world. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_01:But then there's the thing, here's the thing about neurodivergent kids, like that I do fall into masking is my kids are like low support needs enough for them not to be overtly neurodivergent. So it comes across as like personality and behaviour. So therefore, again, probably with these, actually, it's making sense to me now. I've kind of been long in the I don't give a shit what you stranger thinks about me. I wouldn't be rude to anyone, and I don't want my children to be rude to anyone. It's not in that confrontational way. But if we're going about our business, we're doing us, and you judge me, take it with you. That's fine. It doesn't, it doesn't affect me. That's your that's not my business. But probably the relatives that I mask in front of. I'm really aware of masking hard when my kids are in front of those relatives. Yeah. I'm kind of like, uh, I feel this like panicky feeling of like they're judging me, they're judging me as a parent. They think that my child's horrible. Yeah. They think that my child's a a bad person and they they think that I'm a bad mom and I I'm doing this wrong, and they think that my child's unhealthy and their diet isn't right, and they think I don't know the difference between good nutrition and they think that I haven't tried to like fe you know, yeah. That's where I go into overdrive with kind of like and I have found myself in the situation of like you know, bringing my child into another room, staying at family's house and being like, Stop that, you know, like barking like kind of whispered, like panicking, you know, just being like, Stop acting like that sort of thing. And it's be it's pure that is pure masking and it's Kind of traumatic enforced masking that I've gone into in my life ever. And kind of saying to my kid, you just don't do this. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:I don't think. Would you still?
SPEAKER_01:No, do you know what? No, probably not.
SPEAKER_00:I used to try and make my son behave in front of family, like in a way that they expected him to behave. Until I just thought, until I I I didn't realise he was neuroservice when he was younger. I just thought like it's his personality.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He's a kid, basically, as well. Um because my family are a bit str are stricter than I am. But then I've come like when they start going on now, I just go, you know, he's he's autistic.
SPEAKER_01:And he's a teenager.
SPEAKER_00:And like and and the and the but like I try and school them now, my family, instead of masking.
SPEAKER_01:I've definitely still got, you know, I still have to contend with some bits of like neurotypical expectations of my child and the family.
SPEAKER_00:I have to say to them, you know, your expectations can't be the same as the wet would be of a child who's not autistic, don't you? Yeah. You're saying to me he should do this and that because he's of his age, and I'm like, well, no, he might be that age, but he's not, he's not, he can't meet those expectations.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. Um something that I think about is how do we model authenticity to them then? Like, so that's like my lowest low is kind of like kind of just not being in my thinking brain and saying to my child, stop acting like that, or whatever, you know what I mean. Um how do we model like authenticity or self-acceptance to them?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I guess you know it's a hard process to like unmask in front of anyone and your children as well, because sometimes I wear a mask of like everything's fine, everything's brilliant, like for your son's benefit. For his benefit, because I don't want him to be traumatized by like how upset I am about something, or because like that's the mum guilt, or I'm always thinking, Am I gonna like traumatise my child? Is he gonna be in therapy saying this about me in the future? Am I gonna make him a psychopath? Like, you know, the books where the mother does this and that, and then the child's a psychopath, but um kills her and dresses in her clothes, yeah, like but then you've said before on the pod that he's pulled you many a time and gone, why are you actually?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Now that he's older, he'll go to me, why are you talking in that funny voice when I'm going, Yes, everything's fine, don't worry. Yes, dear. Yes, we're in Mary Poppins Land and all this. And I he wants me to be more authentic now, and he can handle it now more because he's older.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He can handle that things aren't always perfect and I'm not always perfect, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. My two are obviously a lot younger still, aren't they? Um and they're we've got the difference, haven't we, between our experiences of like I've had my diagnosis and self-understanding the whole time I've been a mum, and also um my eldest has been on the pathway for years, and you know, we had the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Because she doesn't mask as much, does she? So it's been obvious with her ways with my son. It's taken me a long time to realise, and he still hasn't got a formal diagnosis because he'd masks so hard that the school aren't able to so high functioning and all that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um but you know, the more we've talked about it, remember it was using the um the accessible toilets in that local festival that my daughter first asked me. Oh, yeah, yeah. Why are we allowed to use this? And I was kind of like, oh shit, because I didn't want her to internalise the kind of identity of autism. So it's been a slow conversation that she's it's we still not talked about it properly. Yeah. Because I was I think I just wanted to wait till the diagnosis, and then like then I'll probably do a lot of like learning and talking about it because it will be something she has because the thing she will have is the diagnosis, isn't it? Yeah. So then it feels more appropriate to like go into it. But like I think I model it to them by I'm so weird, mum. A few teachers in the school recently like have kind of said things to me, like, my daughter will come out the end the end of the day, like covered in paint, like she's painted her shirt and stuff. One of them said last week, came up to me before the kids were let out and said, Oh mum, mum, um, I'm really sorry. It nearly said a name. Your daughter's painted her shirt today. I'm sorry, like she got a bit carried away in the art thing, but um I I know you're a fun mum, so I didn't think you'd be bothered. And I was thinking, yeah, fun mum who wants to buy a new shirt. But true, I wouldn't dream of being like, aren't you? Yeah, just kind of like, oh wow, look at you. Yeah, you've had a good day. Yeah. And so it's just acceptance, isn't it? Um, but in terms of my self-acceptance, I think. I think because I'm just weird at home, you know, I'm just kind of quite childlike, probably. I'm quite playful. I definitely have the assertive role of like I'm the parent. They defo know, they defo feel boundaried in that I'm their grown-up and I'm in charge, and everything's down to me. You know, I'll I'll carry the load, your kids, you get to be kids, and I am the grown-up. Yeah. But I have in like times when we're being a bit like reflective and chatty with my eldest, my little one, if I say stuff like that in front of her to my eldest, she literally is just like la la la la! She doesn't care about my inner world. But my eldest is a real old soul, isn't she? She's she loves to speak quite deep at times now. And I think I've said, you know, like I I don't feel much older than when I was younger. You know, I feel like one of those films like Freaky Friday or something, and I've admitted it to her. And she seems quite wow, you know, just kind of quietly contemplative and fascinated, you know. And I sort of say, I'm really glad I've got like a grown-up's life because I get more choice about things, and I've got more wonderful children, and you know, blah blah blah. But again, like giving her that authenticity of like you get more choices as you get older, and blah blah blah, and like these are the things about what makes me me, and I'm not trying to I don't know, and now I've started to be kind of more endy, like affirmative with her in terms of like sometimes now I'll say I'm having a bad day with my ADHD brain or something, so I'm struggling to cope with all these sounds or something, or she'll say I asked you 20 minutes ago or something, or whatever, and I'll say, I'm having a difficulty with my brain today, or whatever. I hope I'll find better language and more actually like informative ways to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah. Well my son calls me silly mommy, like um because and I've always called myself that since I was since he was little because I didn't want to be like um I wanted to us to feel equal in a way, not like an authoritative figure. Obviously, I'm the one in charge, I'm the one who I care for him. But I wanted him to feel that I consider us equals in terms of hum being humans and that I make a lot of mistakes, so I'd always go, oh, it's silly mummy again, I've done this. And he still calls me that. Um and he's more aware now that like I forget things a lot, and he used to get really annoyed by that, but now he's more like he understands well and he makes his own like um things around that, doesn't he? Sometimes he reminds me of things. Yeah, because he's very uh as if it's something important to him, I mean he'll forget everything to do with school or whatever, but if it's something important to him, he'll give me lots of reminders and then I'll say, Oh, I'm sorry I forgot. Whereas probably when he was younger, I'd be like, Yes, I have done that, but I'll admit it now, and he'll go, Oh, and I'll go, Oh, you know, it's my ADHD and I'm not well, I'm on medication, I'd go, Okay, then I'll listen.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So for any of our listeners who are very much living their lives behind a mask still, what are we saying about unmasking? What about we think about some kind of gentle, realistic steps?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you do need to be very kind to yourself about unmasking. It's so hard.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um the first thing that we've got as a tip is just reflect on things and set so self-reflection, self-awareness. Identify how you mask. So it might be things like over-apologizing, uh, over-prepping, um, overcompensating with time. Overcompensating the the way you dress, you might dress to like fit in, yeah. You might like um you know, it's just like about connecting with yourself and thinking, where in my life am I masking? Um and having I suppose what would what was I rather do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like what and I suppose how you really get down to it is like what am I doing for other people's perception or other people's, yeah. Yeah. Um so one thing that I saw online, like doing a bit of like masking research, was like the idea of externalizing this trait by giving your mask a name, like creating kind of a character that represents your masked self that you tend towards that you're kind of trying to distance from, really.
SPEAKER_00:So being like Would it be good to give it like a negative name, like oh that's square claire?
SPEAKER_01:She's so good at this. Oh, you're so funny, Sailor Mummy. Um, yeah, I like the sound of that. What would mine be then? Are you you gotta think of it yourself? Oh god. Well, see you're not back to that. Um yeah, so I thought that's quite a fun idea. You're obviously quicker into it than me.
SPEAKER_00:Um so another tip is to find safe people, safe spaces where you can be yourself. So, you know, we've got each other.
SPEAKER_01:We're always unmasked with each other, aren't we? Yes, we do feel like home, don't we? In terms of friendship. It's just so gorgeous.
SPEAKER_00:Or, you know, it might be a partner, yeah. It might be a family member, or you might have like special interests.
SPEAKER_01:And places, places that you feel you feel great, you just feel like yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, like say you've got your special interest, you could go and join a group, couldn't you? Yeah. Um a therapist, even you might unmask with, because you know, there's no point paying for a therapist if you're not unmasking with them. God know. You might find like an online group or even a podcast, a community, yeah, or just some kind of geeky little corner of the world that you can hang out and you can unmask and then you can practice there for what you might want to do in the other world. Love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, another idea um is kind of like experiment with kind of like micro experiences of unmasking. So I guess it's small acts. Like if you feel fidgety, allowing yourself to fidget. Yeah. Or if you fucking love like messing with a a stim toy, a little fidget toy or whatever. Having one.
SPEAKER_00:I know I'm messing with my pen now, aren't I? And it's probably annoying you a little then in the.
SPEAKER_01:It only ever bothers me when I'm like, you're right up on the mic. I'm always like worrying about the mic picking things up, aren't I, with you stimming?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, or I guess saying like, oh, I'm feeling I'm feeling scattered today, or like I'm having a I'm having a difficult day. You know, people are so slow to admit, just like, I mean, again, I'm like so unmasked that people are so unmasked and TMI and literal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That people ask me, like, how's your day? Yeah. I'm like, oh, well, actually, yeah, just like, um, and yeah, skip like using a kind of scripted approach to how you talk to people, I guess. That's a little micro way of unmasking.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that thing of when people go, How are you? You could always tell them instead of saying fine, couldn't you? That's the thing. And it actually builds relationships.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's possible. And the reason I've got so many friends, to be honest, it's probably because like there's never like there's never like surface level chat without.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and she has, you know, listeners, she's quite like you can't walk down the street with Jen in Liverpool without bumping into at least three people who want to stop and chat with her and give her a hug. Honest to God, she's a very popular lady. That's lovely. Um, so another tip, tap, tip is um self-compassion.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, oh god.
SPEAKER_00:You could practice like when the guilt or shame pops up in something that makes you want a mask, or if you take a mask break, yeah, you might start going, oh, I you know, I hate myself. Oh, I'm ashamed and all this. Do some gentle self-talk instead of all that negative talk. Oh, seriously. Um, try and talk to yourself like you would, your child, a loved one, yeah. Or your friend. Um, do a little mini rec recess of your vegan nerve. Oh, come on now. Yeah. Is this a button? Yeah, give some slow breathing, isn't it? Always the breathing. And ground yourself. Have a breath, as you say. Have a little breath. Ground yourself, tell yourself that you're safe and that you don't need to perform right now. But I do, I'm I'm I'm hosting a podcast. And you can do some affirmations, etc. Yes, give yourself a little bit of time to repair and rest whenever you feel your mask slipping and you're worried about it.
SPEAKER_01:Gorgeous, which brings me round to that we don't have to be on all the time. We can step back from social demands, you know. I've been a long time in this case. Yeah, if I'm not feeling good, I'm gonna cancel the plan. Yeah. Because I just can't do it. Like, I think I've known for or I've been at a low enough ebb for long enough, who knows which it is, that I'm like, if I spend that energy that I had allocated to spend tonight on this thing, yeah, I'm not gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_00:Do you mask if you spend that energy so or do you get oh well you know is it a headache or is it like I haven't got the social energy to do it?
SPEAKER_01:This is the shit thing, is there's been a couple of events in our shed, say past decade, yeah, that I've missed because I have had a migraine. But then it's like Boy Who Cried Wolf, because I I would tend to say, No, but they were real.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not going, I'm not like literally going to be a good one. But you know, a long time cancels because she has a headache.
SPEAKER_01:I've missed one birthday night out of yours at least. Oh. And I've missed my sister-in-law's weekend too, and it was because I was sick. But then there's been many times where I've had something that I was supposed to maybe go to with someone, and I've just been like, I don't feel well. Yeah. No. But that's my masked language, isn't it? Rather than saying I don't feel like going anymore.
SPEAKER_00:But then here's where we But you could just say I haven't got the social battery to do it because I I'm A I'm ADHD, that's that's the true unmasking, isn't it? And I'm not, I'm just saying, like, if we're talking about gently unmasking. Yes. But but like, is it just easier to say you're um well? I don't like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Part of setting boundaries in reality is naming what it is. Yeah. Because yeah, this is going to be ongoing, isn't it? This is a lifelong condition. So if this is someone you've got a friendship or a relationship with, it kind of pays for them to know that's part of the reality of you as a friend. And that's where we come back round to struggling with keeping up friendships with ADHD. But I suppose the more honest you are with boundaries like that, the more they know who to expect from you, and they can choose to stay or leave, can't they? Rather than you kind of, I guess you're stringing someone along if you're just like, Yes, I want to do these things, but oh now I've got a headache, and yes, I want to do that, but oh now I've got a headache. At least if you're like, yes, I want to do that. Oh, unfortunately, I've got no energy. You might start to find strategies for how to make your friendship work in a more.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I I don't do it myself. I I've never I've never said the thing. Um no, but I mean I've had the excuse of me physical health for a long time, so I've never had to say, Oh, you know, I haven't got the social battery to do this. And I actually do like socialising quite a lot.
SPEAKER_01:So To be honest, you and me have got to that stage, I think, in terms of just like I don't know about social battery, but overall just I'm not feeling up to it, and it's not necessarily always had to be a physical health thing. It's been like I'm not feeling I haven't got capacity.
SPEAKER_00:I don't I'm not even counting you really because I feel like we're just and and the but the thing is I have started to be more honest about like saying um to people I can't don't really feel like I can communicate at the moment because I'm processing stuff and so I'll do that with like texts and stuff. That's great. I did it with my mum yesterday or the day before. I said, like, I don't really feel like I can talk today because I'm just processing things. Yeah, like that. Um so another way that you can unmask is a there's like creative outlets that you could use. Things like um doing a journal where you've got no mask on, it's just all totally my what a read that would provide for some snooping eyes. Well, I've always had the problem with diaries of like, am I writing this as if someone's gonna read it in the future? What's what am I writing it for? And all that um, but that would be really good. Um you could do stuff like art and that that like really shows you in your insides and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh, I've definitely mastered in art though.
SPEAKER_00:Have you?
SPEAKER_01:As an art student, yeah. I've had some what I consider to be excellent concepts for pieces that were very self-reflecting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and have not done them because it was too exposing of my realities. Yeah. Um, so that's an interesting one.
SPEAKER_00:Um But if it was just for you, if you weren't gonna show it to anyone and you just went through the process.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then another idea is obviously like there's coaching for this sort of thing. Um in terms of like on therapy, obviously, in terms of like integrating the different parts of yourself. So like how to how to live in your authenticity. There's there's tons of work to do, isn't there? To really access self-acceptance and like self-love, self-care. The the the terms get bandied about a lot, don't they? But um It's not just having a nice bubble bath, is it? Absolutely not. No, it's about all this stuff that we're talking about first and foremost, the way you treat yourself, the things you expect from yourself. Being real about what what your capacity is, what you like, what what what lights you up, but exhausts you.
SPEAKER_00:And as you've said on your counselling course, this is not just uh for ND people, this is like everyone has a struggle to get in touch with their authentic self, don't they?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um so I don't know, maybe we should try and do one of those that we've never done before. Um report back on it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I might try the the initial tip that we've done, like the self-reflection and self-awareness. Yeah. But maybe combine it with the creative thing and do it through a journal. Love that. Yeah, I love that too. I keep trying to persuade myself to journal and this'll give me motivation, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Love, love, love. I'm gonna try and God, I'm doing loads of these, you know. You're doing it already. I'm gonna just try and do like integrating the parts of myself so like thinking about like what bits of my expectation of my own parenting are just brutal on me and like what how I could focus more on what I do well and do more of that rather than try and look at what's lacking and blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Is that no form of unmasking if I lost the lost the thread?
SPEAKER_00:No, no, that fits in, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Yeah. Um what about you listeners? Like, do you mask? Do you mask around your partner? Do you mask around your child? Play dates, play dates are the worst for masking when you're first in school and that. Yeah, yeah. Um what kind of small unmasking could you try?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'd love to hear that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we would.
SPEAKER_00:We'd love to hear anything you've got to say about masking, really, if you've got any questions. Would you try any of these tips? Mask moments in your day or how you've unmasked. Well, we'd we'd definitely love to hear if anyone tries the tips, wouldn't we?
SPEAKER_01:We would. We'll put the phone number at the end again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we will. Um and anything else regarding you? We want to hear it, dears. Yeah. Because we're obsessed with you.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah, masking is real, it's common, it's understandable, it's not a fault. Don't don't be thinking this is no no like negative, yet another thing to be like pissed off at yourself for that you're masking. No, only But it does carry hidden costs, it's something to try and it's them costs, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:You don't deserve to be feeling exhausted and and disconnected from yourself. You deserve better than that. So if you've got the time to give a bit of work to this, then exactly, and expect it to be gradual.
SPEAKER_01:Like unmasking needs to be done in like safe spaces, ideally, in small like incremental stages. Yeah. And just even small acts of self-authenticity will chip away at that mask and reveal more and more of like what's really you underneath. This is true. She speaks wise words. You know. You know. So tell us that.
SPEAKER_00:Um let's put a voice on and mask a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:No, well, that's actually me unmask because there's many voices within.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Girls, men, people, they thems. I'm sorry. I don't know why I said girls.
SPEAKER_01:I was just She just loves girls.
SPEAKER_00:Uh but I love all the people. I love all the people.
SPEAKER_01:Come on then, people. I'm panning my love. People with ears, people without ears. Here's the number. Will they okay, will they be able to hear if they haven't got ears? Yeah, because it will do some sort of writing thing.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, here you go. All the peoples. Animals too. If you can phone us, that's really good. Robot animals. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's 07 308 45037.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, oh, 37. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to like, don't forget to leave a little review. Please don't forget, like send this across now to someone who would like to listen. Like, subscribe, share.
SPEAKER_00:Give us five stars.
SPEAKER_01:Raise a fist. Send it with us. Sisters in chaos.
