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Sound Off #71 - Smart Data Collection, Third Place Consumer Shifts, and more!
Sponsored by Intercard!
Wristbands and smart tracking technology are transforming how guests engage with location-based entertainment venues while providing operators with crucial data on visitor behavior and preferences.
• Super Nintendo World's wristband technology pairs with mobile phones to track movements and collect scores
• Tracking systems help operators identify "hot areas" but many fail to properly utilize the valuable data collected
• Recent Gensler Research Institute study shows immersive experiences top visitor interests with consumers willing to pay premium prices
• Third space entertainment venues seeing 35% of consumers pivoting toward competitive socializing experiences
• Companies now marketing ROI metrics over technology specifications with Sandbox VR celebrating $200M in lifetime sales
• COSM's "shared reality" venues offer premium viewing experiences for sports and films in contrast to Sphere's $800M debt struggles
• Tourism slowdowns affecting entertainment venues with decreased international visitors, particularly from Canada
• Supply chain issues potentially impacting new entertainment machines from manufacturers like Sega and Bandai Namco
If you found today's discussion valuable, please share this episode with your peers in the entertainment industry, and don't forget to subscribe for more insights on location-based entertainment trends.
Are you on the edge of your seat Because we're about to?
Speaker 2:sound off with Kevin Williams covering today's latest trends in location-based entertainment, brought to you by the LBX Collective your community to connect, engage and inspire.
Speaker 1:All right everyone let's buckle up.
Speaker 2:Let's buckle up.
Speaker 1:All right, well, welcome everybody to another Sound Off with Kevin Williams. This is number 71 for April 29th 2025.
Speaker 2:We're flying through this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really flying through this year.
Speaker 2:That's nuts, but that being said, Kevin, how are you going to change my mind? Well, this one's a bit of a ticklish one, really, not just because it's on your wrist, but no, the way in which we as an industry, as operators, deal with gauging player interest. There must be a better way. Is the question that needs to be changed? Of course there is a better way. It just means that we need to get a little bit more tactile with how we engage with our guests in the facilities, rather than just treat them as a commodity that walks through the front door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean this is interesting, obviously, given, like you said, this is timely. So, given the upcoming opening of Epic Universe, the Universal in Orlando, and this being, for those of you who are listening we're looking at a wrist with the toadstool from Mario Brothers and this is in the Super Nintendo world, and so, anyway, it's the little wristband that you go around and you pop little different things and engage with the space, and I found that at least the version of this that I experienced in Los Angeles was underwhelming, first of all as a way to just engage with the park. So I'm hoping they've learned from that and done some improvements at Epic Universe. But in general, I think that we do need to be gauging guests' interests, but I'm not sure necessarily that adding certain things that they need to engage with is the best way to do that. I don't know. What are some of your additional thoughts here?
Speaker 2:Well, the Magic Band that Nintendo hoisted upon Universal as one of the requirements that they wanted to see developed for their Super Nintendo world is a great concept on paper.
Speaker 2:It is a system that pairs with your mobile phone, that tracks your movements, collects your scores and the stars that you pick up, so there's hopefully a secondary game component to it. But also it collects the stats. It shows where the hot areas of the venue are from a back-of-the-house perspective. From the front-of-the-house perspective, I don't think that they originally made enough of it to make it a compelling game experience, a gamification of the venue. That said, they've pushed it forward a little bit more with the Super Nintendo facility that's opening up in Epic Universe in a couple of days' time, and the hope is that it will find its feet better. But as an example of a means to track data, to collect player data and to use it as a hook to try and achieve repeat visitation, interactive wristbands, as well as smart player data collection, are essential to be able to understand what is hot and what is not in your facility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm obviously for those of you who know what I do beyond being on these podcasts I'm the CEO of a company called IntelliPlay.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to use this as a pitch, but I firmly agree that strapping on a smart wristband onto your wrist that tracks their location in real time allows the guest to have other gamified and engaged experiences while they're there that augment their experience beyond your core attractions experiences while they're there that augment their experience beyond your core attractions but then also has the opportunity to have enormous amount of data for the operator about what is actually being used and what isn't, is definitely a very seamless and streamlined way to do it.
Speaker 1:My issue with a Super Nintendo World application here is, while all of that is great from the operator standpoint, the guest experience is limited because there's only so many places where that band is actually going to give me the opportunity to engage with the facility and they end up generating cues and everything else, and so I will be interested to see how it's implemented at epic universe to help solve for some of the problems they've had at some of the other installations of the super nintendo world and it's clear that epic universe has taken on board the idea of an interactive component for guests in certain areas.
Speaker 2:We were talking in a previous sound off about the wands that they're using in the Harry Potter section of the Wizarding World of Harry Potter within Epic Universe. There are other wristbands out there, so I I will I will be the independent here. I've had to write a lot uh for both consultancy and the editorials about the growth in e-payment, uh and e-connectivity, and now wristband connectivity. We've seen it applied uh in active entertainment facilities, trampoline sites as a gamification tool. We've seen it in location-based entertainment as a payment infrastructural as well as a guest recording system, and here in Super Nintendo World we're seeing it as both a gamification as well as a means to hook to the personal account of the individual's mobile phone and to share data. I can speak from experience. Even with that vast amount of data available, many operators will not be able to use the data that they collect from these tools and they will need to be mindful that they're going to have to use the proper kind of software and get to grips, because leaving this information on the table is very, very wasteful.
Speaker 1:Yep Agreed, all right. Well, coming up after our quick break, we'll dig into some tariff updates. Intercard is the only cashless system designed, developed and manufactured all under one roof. They introduced cashless technology to the amusement industry and have been leading the way for over 30 years. Cashless systems from Intercard increase customer spending, guest satisfaction and boost revenues by up to 30%. Intercard is so proud to be serving the amusement industry and if you aren't already part of their global family of customers, they hope you will become one soon.
Speaker 2:Right straight into the trends and we've updated the format to deal with the ongoing situation trending tariffs in our tariff watch and for our industry. One of the biggest impacts that is being or going to be felt, or is being felt as we speak, is the slowdown in tourism and the impacts of tourism from certain areas. It has been reported in much of the media that we've seen percentage of slowdowns of bookings for hotels from tourist operations. The airline sector has reported this and even now the theme park sector is beginning to see the impact and you know Epic Universe and Disneyland in Orlando are both seeing surprising impacts on what they were expecting to be high attendance with the opening of the new gates to the park.
Speaker 2:We've also seen a real drop offoff in Canadian visitation to the States and there are a number of entertainment facilities and resorts that depended on Canadian tourism as a unique boost separate to their conventional tourist boost that they would come to expect. And we are also seeing certain countries boycotting visitation. Canadians have decided that they're not going to be visiting America in the same numbers as they wanted to. Obviously, denmark is not keen to travel to the States and we even have European or international visitors concerned about the administration's policing of its borders. Regarding how easy it is to cross into the country, just as a visiting tourist, you know, is there the danger that a vice is going to bang on your hotel room and check your social media format. So we're seeing a lot of the vibrations from the administration's position being felt in that sector.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's, yeah, it's just, it's a what a difference an administration makes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, I'll leave it there. I'll just leave it there. I'm not going to go down that path leave it there.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go down that path. I uh adam gave a nice rundown of the situation uh, regarding the uh music, uh, the latest music game machines, uh, especially on my dx, uh coming from our friends at sega, uh and of course um bandai namco with their drum game. The issue that we're having to be mindful of is that these machines are being manufactured in two different locations. As far as we understand, and if anyone from Bandai Namco can correct me, I am under the understanding that our friends at Wallap are going to be manufacturing the Taiho Key drum machine for Bandai Namco, where our friends at Sega are using a South Korean manufacturer for their MaiMai music machines. These machines are needed urgently. They've been shown at IALPA last year. They have order books filled. There's a lot of interest and how well they are received in North America will also impact how they're rolled out in Europe.
Speaker 2:These are not limited releases, but they're not full releases, if you understand what I'm meaning that they haven't gone for a vast production run, because these are quite expensive systems within the $20,000 to $30,000 price point and the problem is adding tariffs prices on top of that, on top of either the machine manufacturer or the computer components that go into that machine manufacturer or the computer components that go into that, could be a deal breaker for people that are watching their budgets very closely. So we have to be bullish at the moment that these machines are on their way for September availability the last time we've heard and we have to be bullish that the prices aren't going to be impacted too much. But it is also something that we need to keep an eye on to see if these are the first signs of impact from the current financial positioning. And of course, there is the danger that if they're being shipped by sea with a number of blank sailing situations taking place, could those August, september, october delivery dates be stretched further? Anyway, moving on from the world of tariffs and the unknowns, let's deal with some knowns, and we've got some really interesting data coming through from the industry regarding their visitor requirements.
Speaker 2:Going back a little bit to how we gauge the audience's interest, we're actually able, through some surveys that have been carried out, to get a better idea of what visitors are looking for from their entertainment spend. I'm not going to go into the details of these you can freeze the video and look at that in your own time, but the key takeaways are that immersive experiences are right front and center on the interest level and that you're prepared to pay quite a lot of money for a good immersive experience. There's also the issues that we need to be seen is how far people are prepared to travel to go to these experiences. Again, this information was compiled 2024, 2025.
Speaker 1:Well.
Speaker 2:I think majority of it was compiled 2024. So again, those could be impacted by the current financial situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would encourage anybody who hasn't had a chance to review this report to definitely check it out. It's called Evolving Immersive the 2025 Immersive Entertainment and Culture Industry Report by Gensler Research Institute, so I would highly highly recommend that you download this. It is a read I mean it is 91 pages if you go through all of it, but a lot of it is the back half of it is pretty much the data and charts but it is very, very enlightening, especially if you are considering doing anything in the quote-unquote immersive entertainment space.
Speaker 2:Research is essential, especially if you are an established facility. You can't sit on your laurels. You really do have to keep up and when you're making a decision about an attraction or a new product going into your facility, this type of data, especially talking about the mixes between male, female and children's preferences, is very useful. It is dry reading but it is worth your time.
Speaker 1:It is dry.
Speaker 2:That is true, it is dry, but, sadly, as a person that advises and consults in the sector, this is the type of information that I have to feed on. We're interested in seeing a phrase being used that I hadn't seen used for a long time. There are some individuals out in the sector that don't like to use the phrase competitive socializing because they feel that is a phrase that has been hijacked or championed uh, and they want to be seen to be their own individuals and a phrase, an alternate phrase to competitive socializing or social entertainment or hospitality entertainment, was third space, the first space being work, the second space being home and the third space being where you go to relax and socialize with your friends. And a particular report from NIC came out recently, very interesting. They were breaking down the levels of valued entertainment that individuals were prepared to go to and what they were looking for from that third space. Were they all going down to the pub or the bar? Were they all going out to live performances? Were they all going down to the pub or the bar? Were they all going out to live performances? Were they going to sports events? Were they now pivoting towards competitive socializing? And 35% of the audience was pivoting towards competitive socializing, while live events and event spaces were seeing an increase in their take-up. I was interested that music and food festivals were in the 29, but there are a number of reasons why those may be slightly down on previous years because of the availability of them as they ramp back up after the COVID situation. But again, if you have the time, I would recommend going through these sites and if you have any questions about how to get hands on these reports, just throw me an email and I'll put you on the list.
Speaker 2:Moving across to the attractions that populate these spaces, and we're at that stage in the market where we're seeing companies thumping their chest, showing off their figures, shouting about how successful they are wanting to be seen as market leaders. So, ranging from the competitive darts side of the market celebrating the one millionth throw, to our friends at Zero Latency celebrating over 116 venues and looking at a rollout of another 35, to our friends at Sandbox VR jumping up and down and shouting about their $200 million lifetime sales of tickets across their locations and their hopes to expand to 150, as well as immersive game box. These are just a snapshot of providers of entertainment. Uh components for venues.
Speaker 2:Majority of them are not standalone. That said, sandbox and zero latency are franchised operations that are standalone. Immersive game box was, but they're now more focused on dropping in their products and attraction. And, of course, flyby Darts is just a competitor to the other gamified dart systems out there, so it is targeted at social entertainment. But this is an interesting snapshot of how the market is promoting the ROI ability of their products. Rather than just talking about the tech, they're now talking about the ROI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do want to be curious where the immersive game box numbers came from. I mean, I'm sure it's from their own press release, but from my own experience of coming across Immersive Gamebox both independent venues, standalone venues the one I visited at the Colony Grandscapes in Dallas, which was completely empty, had six bays and there was not a single person in there and they were open and it was the middle of an afternoon on a Wednesday and other venues that were in the space had people flowing in and out of them. So I'm curious how they're seeing 44% same-store growth. Is it period to period? Is it year over year?
Speaker 2:That is interesting to me that they can. The press release was kind of light on the exact date of how these numbers were matched. The same way, I would argue that our friends at Sandbox VR's information was kind of light on exactly how they'd hit that 200 million. You know, buyer beware. You have to dig into this data and, you know, use the large bag of salt, the large bag of salt. But these are the only indications we have on the public space. Obviously, we get information from sources that we have to keep close to our chest, and I'm comfortable to say that these numbers are not 100% far off from what we've been hearing from our sources. Off from what we've been hearing from our sources, though, I would argue that, rather than them being same site, they may be an aggregate of certain facility operations. But that's as far as I'll go.
Speaker 2:Moving on and talking about the chains and the brands, our friends at Chuck E Cheese has decided to rebrand their what they called originally their adventure zones, what some of us called as their trampoline sites, as their active play areas. Now they're their superhero, chuck E's superhero playgrounds. Yeah, uh, fantastic, uh, you know, go for the superheroes. I'm sure the kids will have a good time and more active entertainment is essential. I just hope it's the right mix for their uh business going forwards, especially as chucky cheese is looking to, you know, establish its new branding and encourage the new audience to their facilities.
Speaker 1:This is stupid. I think it's a stupid name. Frankly, the Czech cheese has done some great things. They've done some great things with the brand. This is totally we use this term this is like oblique or orthogonal to their brand, orthogonal, Orthogonal to their brand and what they've done. There's nothing in any of their characters that have ever touched on superheroes, and so I don't know what they're trying to do here with this, unless they're trying to they're characters, you say, but they only have one character.
Speaker 1:They have ancillary characters in their cartoons that play in their venues and other. That's what's happening, and so they're trying to expand their media efforts in creating superhero storylines, but this seems to be to be, you know, again orthogonal from their core brand offering.
Speaker 2:They are trying to establish their brand. They're trying to get a USP out there, because if you peel away Mr Cheese, they've peeled away the band that used to be there. The animatronics is gone. They now have their cartoon series with their list of changeable characters, and it is clear that they're wanting to try and establish a 2025 positioning so that they can stand out amongst a very, very crowded market.
Speaker 2:When you're sitting on over 400 facilities, if my mind is serving me well, and out of those 400, only 125 of them have these, you know, adventure zone areas, it is clear that they need to update the areas, that they need to roll out a new, fresh coat of paint and they need to get in the face of their audience.
Speaker 2:And whoever at the branding operation feels that superheroes is the thing to jump on board of has gone away and done that. I would argue that it's an orthogonal move and maybe they should be looking more at the entertainment offering rather than the brand offering, but that is a personal opinion. That active entertainment, children's focus, is something that Hello IEO have been pushing. They have a considerable number I think over 60 facilities dotted all over the world, the globe, which are really indoor projection mapped interactive environments. They've been building on their technology expertise and they've just launched Hello Fidgetal where they are talking about using their projection mapping technology not just for the children's market but also bringing that to all kinds of location-based entertainment environments. I kind of see this as them jumping into the immersive enclosure business, but a much larger, you know full room themality and projection immersion here. But again, it is interesting to see active entertainment, digital projection and also the appearance of the physical term in our sector.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really like the Hello Park experience. I've got a little bit of a I'll just share my screen here pretty quick, very quickly but I just really like this embraced that physical, physical term. In fact, they actually even use it in their consumer marketing, so it's not just a term they use inside the industry, but this is a looks like a great immersive interactive experience for for kids.
Speaker 2:this is the the current offering for their immersive entertainment experiences. With the new division they're hoping to make that available to existing operations or the future operations. So they're they're still going to be continuing to do the hello parks operation, but the uh the hello digital side is going to be new. Uh, they were at the deal show and we'll have a little bit more about what they're up to in our Stinger Report coverage from that event. A lot of interesting things seen at Deal. The tech was one of them.
Speaker 2:We're in an interesting position here where previously I was talking about in the sound off about HTC and the success that they've had in location-based entertainment and how other companies are now trying to jump in offering turnkey solutions for VR headsets. Our friends at Pico have partnered with ARVI, who are known for their escape room VR experiences, and that kind of technology now is being offered as an a turnkey solution. So they're trying to remove a lot of the buyer and operator pain from the process by offering a complete soup to nuts operational installment and they made a big thing of their partnership recently. At the same time, our friends at DPVR have been pushing their headsets both in the educational sector through partnerships and are about to announce their partnerships in the location-based entertainment sector. So we're kind of seeing companies that want to break into this market finding alliances and partnerships with operations to make the entry of this technology a lot easier. And as we're in the kind of the third or the fourth phase of adoption of VR experiences, a lot of the black arts regarding VR technology into your facilities are having to be brushed aside for serious ROI.
Speaker 2:Moving on, and one of the aspects of the XR scene has been the growth of immersive projection systems as well as immersive LED systems or static light systems, and one of the most groundbreaking, I would say, is COSM. Most, uh, groundbreaking, I would say, is cosm. Now cosm, I have to confess I have worked previously with evans and sutherland. I worked for rediffusion in the uk, which was a military simulation company that also developed simulators for entertainment. They built the Star Tours simulator and they were part of a group of companies that combined in Salt Lake City. Spitz that makes dome projection displays for planetariums as well as large displays Evans all formed under COSM or COSM Group and from that COSM was created as a standalone entertainment experience and COSM.
Speaker 2:The first two installations have opened up in Los Angeles and in Dallas, and these are planetariums using LED, but you're not looking at the stars, you're looking at the world, and these immersive screens allow for a comfortable dining, a boutique dining experience, while watching live sports or live performances or even, now, movies, especially catered for these experiences. They even did a deal with Circus Olay, where some performances were captured and done that. They've done deals with major sporting events, and one of the big things that they were announcing is that they are actually going to be showing the Matrix films on their large screen, and these are not just your, these aren't your grandparents' cinema. This is comfortable seating, with dining coming to your group, your pod, as it were, with cocktails coming. It is a full-on experience and the reactions have been incredibly strong to this. They have raised additional seed funding, so their LA and Dallas facilities will be joined very quickly by an Atlanta and a Detroit site, and I know, brandon, that you've had the pleasure of going to one of these.
Speaker 1:I have, and I'll say that the experience was unlike anything. Obviously that exists and that I've had a chance to experience before, but it was unbelievable. It was absolutely phenomenal. I wanted to be able to go and experience the one of the sporting events, so they had some NBA semifinals playing that evening that I was there and they were sold out so I wasn't able to get to get in, which is a good sign for Cosm as well, and how well they're doing get you know, to get in, which is a good sign for Cosm as well and how well they're doing. But I was able to do one of their their boilerplate experiences and and that was it was excellent, it was phenomenal.
Speaker 1:I will say that I said that that watching a sporting event is going to would be much. I would almost rather watch a sporting event in a Cosm than going into the actual, going into the actual arena because of arena, because of all the other things that you get by being there. But I'm a massive fan of the Matrix, saw the original one in theater and then went and saw it again and again and again, and then saw it in the IMAX as well. I would say that if I were to watch a movie, especially one that would be better fit for an IMAX, I would still prefer to go see that movie in an IMAX versus at the Cosm. Their screen resolution is incredible, but the audio is not at the same level that you get from a true fit for movie watching experience. So, that being said, it isn't to say that they won't make improvements and changes to Atlanta.
Speaker 2:I expect to see improvements regarding the audio. I wouldn't be surprised if personal headphones per booth is something that we see added. The sports events don't really need that, because they use the ambient sound from the sporting events.
Speaker 1:You want clapping and all the other stuff that goes on, you know, with that kind of thing. So you know again, I think that it's phenomenal, and as they do more licensed deals with films, then I imagine that they will make improvements to that film watching experience as well.
Speaker 2:There's a direct comparison about this out-of-home entertainment experience, social entertainment experience compared to the consumer VR, big screen experiences. One of the things about the early VR systems and current VR systems was they promoted that you could watch big screen. You could watch films in virtual reality as if you were sitting in your unique dream cinema settings and with big screen screen you can even have other virtual characters populate that environment. You can have your friends in vr come. It's still very sedentary, it is still very individual and there's, you know, not the food and the booze and the social networking. And one thing that Cosm has been promoting is a term called shared reality, and I feel that this shared reality is what humans will gravitate to, far more than a virtual version of this. And the issue about the type of food and offerings that they have within these environments is very clear that they're going for a very high VIP level, and I would rather go to a sporting event at a COSM, because I have a better idea of what I'm getting than sitting on the bleachers watching the event at the stadium, and that is going to scare a lot of people and it's part of the reason why we saw our golfing industry turn towards that kind of stadium stadium social entertainment approach for their tech-infused golfing championship, the same way that COSM is going to be embracing many more activities. But sometimes you know you can have the best technology in the world and still find it difficult, and our friends with Sphere seem to have it all. They had a phenomenal structure that received great publicity and they had one of the largest of the technology screens LED technology screens in the business. The problem is that they had the albatross around their neck of incredible debt that was generated from the construction process of this fast facility and they had a business model that was built on sand and sadly they are now sitting on over $800 million worth of debt and that they've been undertaking major restructuring and even the board and major investment houses have been looking at either finding refinancing or turning to bankruptcy. That is how severe the situation is.
Speaker 2:To kind of put a gloss on this and to cover up the situation here, the Sphere has been promoting a deal that they've done with Google to have the Wizard of Oz up pixels using AI technology so it can be shown in a fantastic large display within. You know the vast display that they have within the facility. I would argue that the level of food and seating and just ambience that is achievable in the sphere is nothing in comparison to what our friends at Cosmo have achieved. Personal opinion and I would also argue that though the Wizard of Oz is a fantastic film, it's not going to gravitate as much as some of their A-list live music performances gravitate attendance to their facilities.
Speaker 2:But really the Sphere is one of those facilities or was a concept that had to work with multiple facilities. They couldn't just open one and be done. They needed to have one in England and other locations and that has not been able to be achieved. Their London aspirations fell by the wayside and what they're planning to do in the UAE is still up in the air. But that is the situation that we find ourselves in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, disappointing, certainly for Sphere, I'm sure for everybody involved. It's a phenomenal installation or it's a phenomenal installation or it's a phenomenal experience. If you're having the right experience and again, as we talked about with uh, with with content and with your thing, trying to slap a movie into the sphere, experience is not going to be, you know, the same way that you can with a, with a live music artist down with everything else augmented around it. But their issue is ultimately content and the Cosm format much smaller format, much more comfortable lounge seating environment like that format is just much more applicable to wider varieties of content than what you can deliver at the spherephere, given the seating and given the size of this facility. And so they're going to continue to run into content issues if they can't continue to book new artists to actually do their shows in the Sphere.
Speaker 2:Owned by Madison Square Gardens, who are famous for their live event business. I think the sphere is, you know, at a point where it's going to have to make some very hard decisions about what it wants to be. It is in Vegas, so you know it's going to appeal to a certain kind of audience. I know that they've been making money off of the marketing and advertising outside, but even that has run into problems. They're in a legal battle at the moment regarding how long they leave the lights on outside and the level of noise that is generated from exiting their facility.
Speaker 2:There is a strong possibility that they may have to curtail how late they can run their venues. You know all of these issues. On top of quite a considerable debt from the construction of the facility that isn't being offloaded by other venues opening Begs a big question mark over the survivability of this approach to the immersive large screen physical environment compared to alternatives. We've already touched upon in Open and Shut the situation that our friends at Illuminariums are going through. There will be a lot of question marks now about how physical needs to work in the current market conditions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Anyway, that's it from me, if there's anything that I've missed, brandon.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so. So that wraps up another great sound off Kevin Williams. Kevin, it's a pleasure, as always.
Speaker 2:Pleasure as always. See you in the next one.
