How to run faster downhill - Taylor Turney

Taylor Turney is a Spartan Pro athlete and an endurance coach with Redox Running and Yancy camp.

With a specialty of mountain running we chat about: 

• Strategically improving your agility for better downhill running.
• How to manage your load for training your uphills without losing your speed and running economy. 
• How to balance your strength training and mountain running to improve your performance. 

Follow Taylor on IG @tridgerunner and at Redox Running

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Transcript

Taylor Turney

[00:00:36] Rich Ryan: [00:00:36] to strategically improve your agility for better. Downhill running, how to manage your load for training your uphills without losing your foot speed and running economy, and also kind of how to balance out your, your full training program was strength 

[00:00:49] Taylor Turney: [00:00:49] to make sure that you 

[00:00:50] Rich Ryan: [00:00:50] are improving as an OCR athlete while improving.

[00:00:54] You're a mountain training. All right. And also just want to remind you guys, we have a fresh contest dropping on Friday's episode, so please stay tuned and join us for that episode with my friend Josh Reed. Exciting things coming. All right, here we go. Taylor. Turney.

[00:01:19] Taylor tourney. Thanks for joining me today. How are you doing today, man? 

[00:01:22] Taylor Turney: [00:01:22] Oh, great man. Thanks for having me on. Of 

[00:01:24] Rich Ryan: [00:01:24] course. So we are going to do a deep dive on some mountain training and how you can implement that into your own training to get better for these races that most obstacle course events happen, you know, up and down the mountains.

[00:01:36] But first, I'm curious, if you had one superpower, which one would it be? 

[00:01:43] Taylor Turney: [00:01:43] Oh, Oh man, super power. I mean, it'd be cheating, I guess, but I gotta say like speed, like dash, you know, just like the ability to control like my speed up and down mountains, man. I just love to fly even faster. 

[00:01:57] Rich Ryan: [00:01:57] Like the speed, like the flash type of speed, or would it just be like a little bit faster than the person in first place?

[00:02:03] So like didn't seem a ludicrous 

[00:02:06] Taylor Turney: [00:02:06] flat flash type speed, but then obviously I'd have to control it to make it, you know. Seem realistic. 

[00:02:12] Rich Ryan: [00:02:12] Yeah. You can't just say blessed and it's like, it was two seconds. You see at Sam peg. Second one real.

[00:02:24] One time I dressed up as a, like there was a local Halloween 5k. In my neck of the woods, and it was the winter got one a hundred bucks in first costume, one a hundred bucks. So I bought a shirt that was like the flash shirt and that's literally what I wore. And like some red tights and I won the race.

[00:02:42] And then when they were going to give the best, the first costume, I was expecting a double dose. Didn't get it. They said no dice on that. And in retrospect, it was actually kind of a douchey thing to do, but live and learn. so you mentioned you live in a straight up cabin in the mountains, essentially, right?

[00:03:01] Like, tell me, tell me a little bit more about that. I knew you were in the mountains. I knew you live in Alaska, but how, how did you come up? Come to live in a small home in the mountains? 

[00:03:12] Taylor Turney: [00:03:12] Yeah. So, so we live in Anchorage, which is actually, it's Alaska's largest city. it feels very much like a normal city if you, if you haven't been there.

[00:03:20]but we have, I've always liked having easy access to the trails, which I always have. But, last fall. we were kind of, renting a kind of a normal space, in the city, next to some good trails. But we're like, really just like, man, it'd be nice to be in Anchorage, but not feel like we're an Anchorage.

[00:03:36] And so, there's this little corner of Anchorage called bear Valley, which the name's fitting, cause we have lots of bears up there too. but the, It's like really tucked, like as far into the mountains as you possibly can get. So Anchorage is at sea level, but we're at 1600 feet, which is pretty high out there.

[00:03:53] Rich Ryan: [00:03:53] That's still considered Anchorage. 

[00:03:55] Taylor Turney: [00:03:55] It's part of Anchorage. and so, yeah, so there's a, it's a pretty interesting little area. There's like one little road going back there. a mix of houses, a really large, extravagant houses and some really small homemade cabin type things up there. And we found this a little.

[00:04:10] Cabin for rent, it's little over 400 square feet. And, it's got a lot. And, yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, it's, we love it. I mean, we had, we had talked about, you know, going tiny house and stuff for a while, and this is kind of like that perfect. In between to. Still live in Anchorage in a normal house, but have it be compact and be right in the mountains.

[00:04:32] Rich Ryan: [00:04:32] Right. That's what I was thinking. If it was actually at a tiny house, what would, like how much smaller could it be? Like what, what dimensions does it need to be to fall into a tiny house or does it, or do you have to be able to like move a tiny house? 

[00:04:45] Taylor Turney: [00:04:45] I, I, you know, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I think dimensions wise, it.

[00:04:49] It does count as a tiny house, but when people think tiny house, they think on a trailer, and this is on a foundation with running water. I mean, you've got a two year old, but if we have electricity, plumbing, all that good stuff, but it's just really small. 

[00:05:03] Rich Ryan: [00:05:03] It's just a small normal house. If that was the thing, I know that's definitely, it's not an East coast thing, tiny house.

[00:05:10] That's not. Something that people would find desirable. So 

[00:05:16] Taylor Turney: [00:05:16] it's not really a thing up here either. But, we were, we were into trying it. 

[00:05:20] Rich Ryan: [00:05:20] I mean, it sounds like you have a really cool, and that was another question I was gonna ask, but I was like, ah, let's not be cliche, but I was going to ask you about bears in Alaska, but you live in bear Valley, so I'm guessing you guys, navigate that fairly well. 

[00:05:32]Taylor Turney: [00:05:32] well, it's funny because I've lived here my entire life besides a couple year stint in college, and I've ran these trails and there's, you know, there's bears all over the place, but I've actually never really run into a bear. I wouldn't see them far off every once in a while.

[00:05:46]until this week and this week, I've seen two bears. No way. And my prior life, I've never ran into bears on the trails like this. And I've seen one on Monday and in my neighborhood just running around the neighborhood loop. And then another one, yesterday, just on the normal trail system. So it's pretty crazy to hear at a high frequency this week.

[00:06:05] Rich Ryan: [00:06:05] Now you guys readily trained on how to handle a bear encounter. 

[00:06:10] Taylor Turney: [00:06:10] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's pretty common knowledge. I guess living in Anchorage, but there's always resources and stuff out there. Like my wife just went on a webinar just to kind of refresh, how the best, yeah. Just like earlier, a couple of weeks ago actually, just to refresh, like, okay, what if I actually see a bear?

[00:06:26] What should I do? Kind of thing. But. Yeah, it's, it's, if you're running regularly in bear country, it's just good to know what you're going to do so you don't freeze in the moment. 

[00:06:35] Rich Ryan: [00:06:35] That's funny. It's like when you renew, like your driver's license, you have to pass the bear safety protocol. What do you do?

[00:06:43] Like, so I would have no idea. We were told when I went to like sleep over camp in ninth grade to just get big and yell at the bear. I don't know if that would work. 

[00:06:54] Taylor Turney: [00:06:54] Yeah. So I mean, kind of it, it depends on the bear. So there's a Brown bears and black bears. So blackberries are smaller, little more timid.

[00:07:01]and so if you see a Blackboard, that's actually what you do. Do you stay looking at them and you look big? First line of defense though is no matter what, you just always have bear spray or a gun. There's a big debate on which one to have, but I've always been comfortable with just bear spray and, and then, yeah, if it's, blackberries are mostly what you see, just look big, look at it.

[00:07:19] Don't, don't ever run from a bear. That's like the number one rule. Cause, in general, they, they like to keep their space. They like to, you know, they're not trying to come meet you for the most part, but if you run away from them, from them, you can trigger there. A predator instinct. So just never run from a bear.

[00:07:37] And then in a blackness situation, that's what you do. And then in the Brown bear situation, if there, if, if you have mace in a gun, like obviously you might have to use that, but with a black or Brown bear, you don't try to scare them off. You just, you hold your ground and if they come at you and there's nothing you can do, you play dead until they're bored of you.

[00:07:56] So. 

[00:07:58] Rich Ryan: [00:07:58] Damn 

[00:07:59] Taylor Turney: [00:07:59] hope. Hoping to never experience that in my lifetime. I've never even seen it happen. 

[00:08:02] That 

[00:08:02] Rich Ryan: [00:08:02] Brown bear. That'd be, that'd be really rough. And did you see black bears recently? Was that what they were 

[00:08:08] Taylor Turney: [00:08:08] both black bears. The first one was pretty little. it was just in the neighbor's driveway, and I just turned around and with the other way.

[00:08:14]and then the. Yesterday was a bigger black bear, but he was also, he was going the opposite way of me on the trail and I just kind of slowly walked behind him. And so he meandered off trail and I was just kind of yelling and making sure he knew I was there. 

[00:08:26] Rich Ryan: [00:08:26] Yeah. I think there's black bears everywhere, right?

[00:08:28] Like there's black bears on like New Jersey. We have black bears around. So 

[00:08:32] Taylor Turney: [00:08:32] yeah, 

[00:08:34] Rich Ryan: [00:08:34] it's good that they can be scared off. So when we, when we are able to race, what is your favorite race venue? 

[00:08:42] Taylor Turney: [00:08:42] Ooh. so far it's been the Whistler, this is my first time doing it last year, but man, they, that mountain, The, the mountain course on the ski resort there is just absolutely beautiful. And since we don't have Alaska Spartan race, it's the most similar kind of terrain and stuff too. I used to assign, very felt very much at home and, it was just awesome. Lots of cool, single track come down, rocks and roots, coming down the mountain and big climbs.

[00:09:07]it was just stunning. So that have to be my favorite by far. 

[00:09:10] Rich Ryan: [00:09:10] He did really well there 

[00:09:11] Taylor Turney: [00:09:11] too, right? Didn't you take a 

[00:09:14] Rich Ryan: [00:09:14] second place in both? 

[00:09:16]Taylor Turney: [00:09:16] I was, I was second to Ian in the sprint, so the sprint was actually the mountain series race, and I was, there, the last obstacle was the monkey bars and I was getting on the monkey bars as he was getting off them, and then there was a dunk wall, so I was super close there.

[00:09:30] And then, then second day was a super. And I think I got third that day. but yeah, it was just, it was a great weekend, and I was, I was absolutely loving it. 

[00:09:40] Rich Ryan: [00:09:40] Yeah, the home course. You got to claim it, I guess. 

[00:09:42] Taylor Turney: [00:09:42] Yeah. But it felt like home course to me. So that's what I'll call it until we get an Alaska race.

[00:09:48] Rich Ryan: [00:09:48] Right. That'd be something I would come out to the Alaska race. Maybe it would be. It's all a bit sweet. 

[00:09:54] Taylor Turney: [00:09:54] I've heard that a lot. You know, I'm going to try to convince them to come up here 

[00:09:58] Rich Ryan: [00:09:58] and see if we can pull some strings. 

[00:10:00] Taylor Turney: [00:10:00] cool. So who is like a role 

[00:10:01] Rich Ryan: [00:10:01] model that you have but that you've never met? 

[00:10:04] Taylor Turney: [00:10:04] Ooh, that's a.

[00:10:08]you know, I'd say, I have to say Killian journey, is just, he's just so down to earth and genuine. And, It seems like you really shows kind of the love for the process and just playing in the mountains versus being all about racing and all about the competition, which that parts equally is fun, but you've got to love the process and just, and just living the lifestyle if it's going to be, Yeah, longterm and enjoyable. Those types of people who 

[00:10:35] Rich Ryan: [00:10:35] are in it because it's just for the love. It's, it's, it is really cool to see, and they're just in the mountains because they wouldn't rather be anywhere else. And that's something that I, coming from a road background and track background, it was always competition.

[00:10:50] It was a competition. Time training for this specific thing. And a lot of my. Friends and teammates who I ran with, they ended up falling out of running because it's, you know, it's not something desirable. They would rather do something else. And so I got into OCR. I found it like, Oh, there's people who just do stuff because they like to do it where I'm like trying to like do everything about training.

[00:11:10] I figured this all out would be like, no, I just cool. Just going in the mountains and crushing. 

[00:11:14] Taylor Turney: [00:11:14] Yeah. I mean that's how we started out too though, is when I was in high school, I didn't love running. I love competition. I love racing, and I was always. Yeah, just trying to get as fast as I possibly could. And, very similar.

[00:11:25] And I think my first Spartan race is kind of actually, when I like, started to like feel the difference between just training super hard because I wanted to be successful in running versus just actually loving. The experience of, of training, cause you know, running a fast college 10 K like there's very few people who like truly enjoy that in the moment.

[00:11:48] You know, it's afterwards, you're like, man, that was a great race. I'm so glad I did that. That was so hard. And it's a. It's like that enjoyment afterwards where my first spark is like I was pushing just as hard as I had in a college race, but it was actually fun. 

[00:12:03] Rich Ryan: [00:12:03] And that's, it's so funny you say that cause I had those exact thoughts like just this past spring.

[00:12:08] Well it just now, like I've been training more for faster stuff cause that's what I have available to me. And, and thinking about the, the process of doing the 5k, I was doing it so that at the end I could then say like. Here's my time. It's not like that at all in obstacle course racing or even like in mountain trail running.

[00:12:25] It's like you go out, you enjoy it and like the time is never something you really bring up. Like I don't think I know any of my OCR times. I know all my track times and all my 

[00:12:33] Taylor Turney: [00:12:33] road tires. Right. 

[00:12:34] Rich Ryan: [00:12:34] But 

[00:12:35] Taylor Turney: [00:12:35] it's an interesting shift 

[00:12:37] Rich Ryan: [00:12:37] and 

[00:12:38] Taylor Turney: [00:12:38] yeah, I think he too. You, you get to win when you're competing, then you're just competing against the person next to you and trying to get the best out of yourself versus, you know, staring at your watch the entire time or trying to hit certain splits.

[00:12:51] And because all the courses are different and weather and all these variables affect how fast you can actually run. So yeah, the, you really can't go off of time because it's not gonna mean anything. 

[00:13:03] Rich Ryan: [00:13:03] It doesn't matter. And it's interesting if you have an a collegiate race, say you do run. Know, 1420 in a five K but it was like a rabid 5k just hung on for dear life.

[00:13:13] And like you were 10th in the race and it's like the race of your life, but you just hung on. You almost didn't even raise it, you know, like is no real elements of that. Like you ran a 1420 but you didn't really race any part of it. Maybe like you probably had to, but it was sort of like, you can't. Do that.

[00:13:30] Like you have to rate, you have to be in it and ready to handle whatever comes at you so that when things change, you're able to adapt and adjust. 

[00:13:39] Taylor Turney: [00:13:39] Right. It's totally different and that's, I think that's part of why it's a. It's more, more enjoyable in the long run cause you're, you're focused on the people around you, the terrain, your effort.

[00:13:49] And it's, it's a lot more, there's a lot more thinking involved. You can't, you can't check out in obstacle racing or mountain racing when you're having to pay attention to the trail and, your footsteps and all that stuff. You're not just on a track, you know, running like a hamster. 

[00:14:03] Rich Ryan: [00:14:03] Right. And it makes the training more, more enjoyable too, because it does pull you out of the, the.

[00:14:07] Time and metrics and hitting it hard and needing this result because then you can kind of do things that are a little bit different and you get to do things that you enjoy a little bit more. And it makes you have perspective, like someone like Kili and Jonah who's just going out there to have fun and just happens to be competitive at the same time.

[00:14:24] Or, and then. Like it just makes that a reality where when you're training for the track of the road, that's not real. Like I don't look at Galen Rupp and be like, Oh, he just loves this. Like he would be doing this anyway. He probably wouldn't, I wouldn't imagine if there was no races, he would just be running that hard on the road.

[00:14:40] Taylor Turney: [00:14:40] Right. 

[00:14:41] Rich Ryan: [00:14:41] But someone like Kilian, he, he probably would be in the mountains even if there wasn't races. 

[00:14:46] Taylor Turney: [00:14:46] A hundred percent. Yeah. 

[00:14:48]Rich Ryan: [00:14:48] well, cool, man. That's a good answer. So. alright, we, 

[00:14:50] Taylor Turney: [00:14:50] we did a 

[00:14:51] Rich Ryan: [00:14:51] quite a combo there, but tell everybody a little bit more about who you are as an athlete and a coach and kind of what you got going on.

[00:14:57] Taylor Turney: [00:14:57] Sure. Yeah. so, right now I'm a, I'm a obstacle racer, a member on Spartan protein and a mountain runner. Although for, for my travels and competitions, I typically just, all my mountain running is around Anchorage in Alaska. It's all local cause we have incredible competition and some really cool races up here.

[00:15:14] So I don't. Usually travel for those. And then, for Spartan races I usually focus on, because travel from Alaska is, usually pretty long and, expensive. I usually only travel for the series races or the, the races that really, really excite me. so that I'm not traveling too much and I also have a family at home, so I got a two year old, at home.

[00:15:34] He's a blast, a wonderful wife. And, yeah. So we. We live in Anchorage, Alaska. we already talked about that a bit. And, for work, I'm a civil engineer. I work nine to five. And so it's, it's kind of a balancing act. I'm trying to train to be a semi professional athlete. I'm working full time coaching and then trying to be present with my family cause can't, can't do all that stuff and ignore them because they're kind of the most important part.

[00:16:01] So I'm doing this all so I can be with them and support them. Too. So, 

[00:16:07] Rich Ryan: [00:16:07] and I think the, 

[00:16:08] Taylor Turney: [00:16:08] the, 

[00:16:09] Rich Ryan: [00:16:09] your scenario is probably more relatable. No, it's definitely more relatable to the common OCR athlete because we're all kind of in that same type of place, like juggling a bunch of different things. There's very few people in this sport who are out there.

[00:16:23] Training full time. and, and many people, many coaches, they're there. They're doing coaching with a full time job, kind of for the same reason, for the love of the coaching. but also just to help, essentially fuel their, their training and their, their racing. yeah, 

[00:16:39] Taylor Turney: [00:16:39] I mean, that's, that's really what coaching is for me.

[00:16:41] It's, I would say I like my job. I'm grateful for my job, but I'm passionate about coaching. I love helping people run faster and kind of helping them learn the process of running and how to make it longterm and sustainable. 

[00:16:52] Rich Ryan: [00:16:52] Totally, yeah. You've been in, you've been in the game for a long time, and you know, being out in the mountains at 60 some a hundred feet in Alaska, you, when you show up to these races, you show up to the ones that are mountains.

[00:17:04] And last year we got second in the mountain series behind former guest Ian Hosek, who was. No fifth at Tahoe. So, really stiff competition out there. And you show up and you do tremendously well in the mountains. And so that's something that I really want to dive into a little bit when it comes into, training and how you're helping people get better at them, because that seems to be a place where you Excel.

[00:17:25]Taylor Turney: [00:17:25] just, just quick clarification. I was sitting in second place in the series until the very last race and Matt rock, actually, that's right. So overall in the series I got there and I just wanted to 

[00:17:36] Rich Ryan: [00:17:36] thank you. Thank you for the humility could have, but you could have just owned it and that rock would have been like what Matt Rockaway power probably knew, but yeah.

[00:17:44]cool. So. And, and one place where I know that you, you Excel really well in are the dissents, you know, whenever we race together, we ended up pretty much next to each other. Just no matter what. Like I'll see you out there and I know you do really well in the downhill. So when it comes to downhill running.

[00:18:02] Where do you kind of, what's your stance on how to improve on that? Do you find that it's more of a skill to develop or is it more, has to do with like training, load and volume? 

[00:18:12]Taylor Turney: [00:18:12] I definitely find it as a skill. it's, it's. It's got a lot of, it's very different from your fitness cause I would say, and a lot of people that I'm racing against, you know, you and, and, and other people on the circuit.

[00:18:23]sometimes I'm at racing next to people who I would say are fitter than myself running wise. But because of the technical aspect and the skill of downhill running, I'm able to catch up and, and kind of use that, to put myself in contention. And so, definitely find it more of a. Or have a skill to build.

[00:18:38] And the cool thing about it though is some people, I like, some people just have it and some people don't. But I think, you know, I think every aspect of running an Oscar racing is trainable. and some people, they, you look at someone say, Oh, they're a natural at it, and you don't think about the background they have.

[00:18:53] And so, when you think of, when you think of people like Johnny, Muna, Lima, Ryan. Kempson and some of these guys are just really bonded downhills. It's like, Oh man, they're just so natural at it. Like I'll never be, I'll never be able to do that. But if you really look into their, their training history, like Johnny Lumina, Lima was a high level soccer player.

[00:19:10]Kempson was a Multisport athlete and I think you see that in, in mountain running and obstacle racing. A lot of the fast downhill runners are guys who are multi-sport backgrounds and I'm actually fall into that same boat. Earlier in high school I was doing football, soccer, wrestling. I actually didn't get into running until my junior year of high school.

[00:19:27] Really. and so just looking at that, it's like, well, why? Why are these multi-sport athletes so good at the downhills without having trained for them before? And it's because they're training, like how they're training for their sport. You're training lateral speed, agility balance. Foot, foot speed, drills, all these things that, you know, you don't go to cross country practice and do cone drills.

[00:19:51] You're not doing speed ladders, you're not doing those kinds of things. And so if you take those sports and you know, they put in years and years of training those aspects, and then they. Get into running later in life. Yeah. They're natural. The downhills, cause they kind of dancing and move around and skip over the rocks, you know, 

[00:20:08] Rich Ryan: [00:20:08] for sure.

[00:20:08] And, also another example is a cohost who we do shows on Friday, Josh Reed, he was an extreme sports athlete. He's a BMX biker. So he has like that kind of proprioception and he doesn't have the fear of like death in him. So,

[00:20:24]but there's also. You know, that's also kind of plays into the same thing, that people will kind of fall into that book and be like, Oh, well, you know, Ryan Kempson is a great athlete and has this athletic background, or Jenny Luna, Lima is a high level soccer player or something like yourself. You know, he lives in the mountains.

[00:20:37] He goes up and down this all the time. He has multi-sport background. and they kind of chalk it up to that to almost experience that people have. But this was learned at some point. So 

[00:20:46] Taylor Turney: [00:20:46] say you have 

[00:20:46] Rich Ryan: [00:20:46] somebody who, who's coming from. None of those things are just been removed from it for 20 years. what are some ways that you can help develop that kind of skill?

[00:20:56] Taylor Turney: [00:20:56] Yeah, so I think there's, I think there's two parts to it. So most people, and, and this is, it's very true. It's not wrong. A lot of coaches say, you just got to go and practice the downhills. There's no way that way to get better downhills than, you know, running technical downhills, which is true. but the.

[00:21:12] You can build the kind of the physical, like foundational blocks to running faster downhill outs, like not on the actual downhill. And so like if you think about running out of technical downhill, there's a lot of side to side jumping, foot placement, the downhill pounding. And so you can train those things before you get to the downhill so that when you actually do practice downhill, you, you're a little bit better set up to.

[00:21:35] Handle it and, and improve on it faster. So like, so doing speed drills, plyometric jobs side to side stuff. really training that East centric kind of, component of like squats or deadlifts or jumps, depth jumps, things like that. you can condition your body to handle the downhill. You can train your legs to, to have, you know, side to side.

[00:21:57]and like, and speed and agility. And then when you go and practice the downhills, you're going to get further, cause you're. When any, any movement is a signal from your brain telling your your leg what to do, even if it becomes instinctive, right? And so if you've practiced jumping your leg out to the side, you know, on a little, on a speed ladder over and over and over again, then when you're out practicing on the trails, if you have done that beforehand.

[00:22:21] Then your body's more comfortable with that movement, and so you're going to have less of that fear factor and more capability, when you actually go to do the, do the downhill running. 

[00:22:31] Rich Ryan: [00:22:31] Hmm. Yeah. So it's almost like training your neural pathways so that it becomes easier and it's, it's not something you're really going to have to think about as much by by conditioning yourself to, to like know that you can do that more or 

[00:22:46] Taylor Turney: [00:22:46] less.

[00:22:47] Yeah. I mean, it must have, might be a stupid analogy, but say you're trying to like. Throw a football at a target really far away, like. If you can't throw that far, then you can't practice the accuracy at that distance. Right? And so you have to turn your ability to throw the football far enough to hit the target, and then you can work on the other part.

[00:23:05] So downhill running, if you don't have the physical capability. Of of doing that, then it's going to be hard to go out and practice running downhill really fast because you might hurt yourself, you, you met your legs might not be able to handle the pounding. And so, you can do a gradual, you can start out with easier Hills, shorter Hills.

[00:23:22]but everything is a progression. You always gotta have some sort of. A piece before it to get to the point where you're running fearlessly down really steep technical terrain. You can't just jump into that immediately. 

[00:23:33] Rich Ryan: [00:23:33] That's a good analogy. That's, you know, it's like being able to squat your body before you squat the barbell and being able to squat the barbell before you squat 40 fives on each side.

[00:23:43] Taylor Turney: [00:23:43] Yeah. 

[00:23:44] Rich Ryan: [00:23:44] I mean, it really, I never really thought about running like running downhill as a skill that way. 

[00:23:48] Taylor Turney: [00:23:48] Yeah. I mean, it really can almost apply to them and get better at.

[00:23:55] Rich Ryan: [00:23:55] Oh, totally. And like breaking it down this way. It is, it's interesting because yes, it is like, okay, you have some technical trails, go do them. because there, there is a such a low requirement of skill when it comes to running flat. You know, you just, and really pretty much everyone in coaching, Oh, to get better at running, you need to get, you need to run more, which again, like you said, is true, but you need.

[00:24:18] But that could even be broken down to a little bit more skill and movement in particular. but for now, downhill is even more cause the, the impact is exaggerated and there's different factors that are out there. So 

[00:24:28] Taylor Turney: [00:24:28] like 

[00:24:29] Rich Ryan: [00:24:29] when you talk about the ladder drills, like I played some ball sports, but never anything where we would do ladder drills.

[00:24:35]so I don't really have too much experience with that besides what I've looked up in, in, in more recent years to kind of play around with that. So how does that look like? What exactly is like a ladder drill. 

[00:24:43]Taylor Turney: [00:24:43] so I mean, they, I mean, usually you have to have some sort of market on the ground. So, the typical ladder drills, it's like a ladder or like a rope ladder that you lay out on the ground, and maybe like two by two squares in a, you know, in a ladder.

[00:24:55]and it. So like you pick like some sort of foot motion, like say you're going to step in the box with both feet in and out of the box with both feet and then move up to the next rung. And then you do that all the way down. And so anybody can, you know, walk through those step motions. And then as you try to get faster and faster, it's really, you really lose the coordination and the ability to keep doing that.

[00:25:13] So, I mean, just like any skill through practice, you can get a lot quicker if you just. Try over and over again and try to work up the pace. And, I think it's important when you're practicing, ladder drills or any type of agility drills, is that you're responding to something external, something that you see.

[00:25:29] So just like a rock on the trail that you're trying to jump over and avoid. You're not just dancing your feed back and forth and free space. You're looking at the line and you're placing your foot. Accordingly, right? And so that's, that's why having the ladder or you can tape it out on the garage floor or whatever.

[00:25:45]but you gotta be responding to something that you see because that's how you, you build the, kind of foot and eye coordination, 

[00:25:52] Rich Ryan: [00:25:52] right? There's gotta be, there has to be a visual and reactive component to that, because a lot of the downhill trail running is, is reactive. Like 

[00:26:00] Taylor Turney: [00:26:00] you, 

[00:26:01] Rich Ryan: [00:26:01] there's no. No hard, predictable path when you're going down a trail as well as we know it, like things might be different.

[00:26:09] So yeah. And I get that it's cause it's easy to kind of go out and speak. I'll just kind of skip around and like 

[00:26:14] Taylor Turney: [00:26:14] there probably 

[00:26:15] Rich Ryan: [00:26:15] is some sort of merit to that to help the coordination of things. It's probably better than nothing if you want the full thing for the full visual component. I agree that getting cutting one of those letters is probably a good call.

[00:26:26] Taylor Turney: [00:26:26] Yeah. And with that, like. The fitness component can be trained by any type of plyometrics. We're not doing the reactive part. so the physical skill can be built just on the motion and training the neuropathways. But, the skill side of it, you need to be reacting to something visually. 

[00:26:43] Rich Ryan: [00:26:43] And, and the ecentric loading is a pretty smart way to do that.

[00:26:48] How you mentioned just, you know, going, working on the lowering of a squats or a dead lift, because that does kind of exaggerate the muscle damage that would be happening during much like a downhill running because. Because you can end up extra sore from downhill running. Right, 

[00:27:05] Taylor Turney: [00:27:05] right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that's when, where I think practicing on the Hill, is, you know, when you get to specificity like an ecentric squat, it's going to help a little bit.

[00:27:15] And that's, I think that's most important, kind of in the foundational block to just make sure that your knees are tracking well. and you have the strength to handle it, but it's, it's still not very specific, tempo wise and everything to running. And so. For the physical aspect. It's good to make sure you have, you know, good, good motion, good knee tracking, obviously through the exercises.

[00:27:35] But then after that, you really do want to try to practice the downhill running to condition yourself, to that except you centered pounding. Cause you, you could be. You know, really great at tempo squats and all these things, and then the first time you run a hard downhill, you're still going to be sore for days.

[00:27:50] Right? 

[00:27:51] Rich Ryan: [00:27:51] Right. It'd be like doing squats, and then all of a sudden doing lunges, like you'll probably still be sore from the lunges, even though you've done so many squats. Just like changing the mechanics even a little bit. Well, we'll create some sort of muscle damage. You're not used to. and cool. So now that you've kind of.

[00:28:07] Taking these two different parts, like the skill with the reactive training, doing some sort of agility, some eye foot coordination, and maybe you put on some strength stuff as well. just in that foundational phase that you mentioned, and now you're ready to like hit it, like you have some downhills to go on, like go to, so in, in programming something like this, or fitting it into your own training, how do you manage that type of intensity?

[00:28:35] Is it. 

[00:28:36] Taylor Turney: [00:28:36] Go until you feel that 

[00:28:38] Rich Ryan: [00:28:38] you're like kind of shot, or do you have some things that are really structured or is it just go to a hilly course and just run it? 

[00:28:45] Taylor Turney: [00:28:45] I mean, there's, there's a little, I don't structure it out too much. I mean, for, for me, like I, I just like practicing running fast when I'm out in the mountains, so I don't, I don't get to go out and like a true like mountain trail, like every single day with my work and family requirements.

[00:29:00] And so for me, it's just like, whenever I'm out there. I just like to have fun on the downhills. so it's kinda like it's based on what you have available and when you're able to get there. But, as far as like getting used to, if you've never really done downhill running and you're really trying to improve it, I would, it's kinda like your first weightlifting session.

[00:29:16] It's like. Go and do it, but do it, you know, maybe 60% of what you could have on that day. Because if you go, you know, a hundred percent and, all out on your first downhill experience, even though you might have a blast that day, you're going to be hurting for a week. it lasts long time. So, really just like.

[00:29:35] Hold yourself back a little bit that first day. See how you respond, see how I kind of, what kind of Dom's, you get a delayed onset muscle soreness, you know, and, and based off of that, every time you do it, you, you adapt to that pretty, pretty quickly. And so if you take a really easy on your first one, you'll feel a little bit of soreness.

[00:29:51] The next one you can go a little bit harder and you probably by your third or fourth time, you're, you're pretty well conditioned to just go out and hit any, hard down Hills that you want. And, And then, then, then it's just like, then it's just the practice of it. But really be careful with that first session I would say.

[00:30:07] Rich Ryan: [00:30:07] Yeah, like I made that mistake for sure several times. Cause even like then like your feet aren't even conditioned. I've had it where my feet started burning really bad and it wasn't. Everything feels awful for for awhile and I've definitely made a mistake of loading up too much too soon. So to get, it's really improved that.

[00:30:24] So you don't really structure much as far as like go out and do six by. Two minutes downhill? 

[00:30:31] Taylor Turney: [00:30:31] No. I've never done really done downhill repeats. I think there could be a time and place for it, but for me it's, it's, so usually my more mountainous runs are during my long run, cause that's when I really have the time to get out.

[00:30:41] Like really get out and explore the mountains. And, really for me, it's just about. Letting yourself get comfortable with it. And that means like almost every time I get to a downhill, I don't, I don't try to run hard. I don't say, Oh, I'm gonna hit a tempo effort on this. I'm not going to hit it for a certain time.

[00:30:56] I'm just going to try to flow as freely and easily as I can whenever I have a decent downhill. And, And so for me, usually that's, that's at least every weekend with the long run. sometimes I feel your runs, you know, midweek, but, I mean, if you're, if you don't have easy access to two mountains, I mean, you can, once you get used to it, you can really kind of maintain your durability against those Hardy center contractions.

[00:31:21] You know, with a really couple of hard. Downhill runs like once every two weeks. I realize you don't, you don't have to be doing that all the time. I mean, obviously if you're trying to get really good at it and let in specialize in it, you may be doing it more frequently. But if you have a mountain race coming up and the only real downhills you have are two hours away, you can build up to it with, you know, every other weekly session where you hit it really hard, you allow yourself to recover.

[00:31:45] And, and if you have that stimulus, you know. Two to three months out of your big race, you'll be able to maintain that and not get completely destroyed on race day. 

[00:31:54] Rich Ryan: [00:31:54] I like that approach because yeah, it doesn't take that much to maintain what is once it's built. And like I said, I know I, I've kind of gone overboard and it's an athletes I coach have gone over that as well.

[00:32:04] Like when they're on, they go on their easy runs, they can make it hilly and they hit the downhills hard just to, to really try to improve on that. And it can really. Cause some structural damage. I've had some really tough bouts, like within my quads and knees and they all, they all kind of get wrecked. yeah.

[00:32:22] Taylor Turney: [00:32:22] I mean, I guess as far as like weekly scheduling, it's best to add in a day where you do have planned rest afterwards. So if you, you don't want to do it, you know, a day or two before a really important interval session because you're, you're not gonna be able to maintain the quality. So that's the other reason why I like it for a long run.

[00:32:39] Cause typically people, you know, they arrested after their long run and they have a couple easily days at least before their next real hard session. And so. that's why I think that's a good time to practice it. But yeah, just making sure that it doesn't affect your, your other important sessions. just kind of treat it like, I guess like obviously the long run aspect.

[00:32:58]but also like, I guess really like a hard weight session. Like. When, when would you place a hard weight session? Cause that's kind of the similar damage you might feel after a good downhill session. 

[00:33:08] Rich Ryan: [00:33:08] Right? You can't be expected to hit intervals the day after a weight session unless it's planned to not be at max capacity or max effort.

[00:33:16] Taylor Turney: [00:33:16] But that's a good point. And I liked the idea of 

[00:33:19] Rich Ryan: [00:33:19] working it into a long run because then it can kind of take place of some quality in there. And. really get a good bang for your buck as opposed to having like, you know, Tuesday intervals, Thursday downhills, and then, and then trying to fit in some others like OCR specific or speed workout.

[00:33:34] It seemed like it'd be all, like a lot of quality and a lot of kind of beat down. And on the other side, this again, I'll speak for myself personally. Last year. And big bear was first time I ever came across any type of mountain net steep and I was just dominated by that type of a really steep elevation.

[00:33:55] And I was like sore for days after that. And mostly because of the ups, I wasn't even able to really hit the downs that well there cause it was so steep and just kind of, I wasn't prepared. So on the other side, like when 

[00:34:06] Taylor Turney: [00:34:06] training to go 

[00:34:07] Rich Ryan: [00:34:07] up, how, how does that change your philosophy as far as like load and volume, when training for the ascent as opposed to the descent?

[00:34:18] Taylor Turney: [00:34:18] Yeah. So the uphill is, it's really cool and it trains. kind of your, it's almost the opposite, whereas you can work really hard on your uphill training and it's going to be a lot less, pounding and, kind of like the impact on your legs. And so that's almost like the, the Hills are kind of the best time, I think, to get some of your really hard quality work for the week.

[00:34:39]not only cause it's specific to many, any upheld races you have, but you can, do, you know. 10 by two minutes really hard uphill and maybe training like a VO two max type session, and you're like, you're, it's really fatiguing overall on, you're getting a really big training, training for your, I guess what's, what am I trying?

[00:34:59] You're getting really big bang for your buck. That's what I'm trying to say. 

[00:35:04] Rich Ryan: [00:35:04] That's a great endurance workout. 10 by two minutes, no matter where you are. 

[00:35:08] Taylor Turney: [00:35:08] Right, right. But then the difference is that, you know, if you're on a decently steep grade, you're working really hard, but you might be only going, you know, 10 minute miles.

[00:35:16] And so the impact on your, your legs and feet, even though they're working, their heart is actually pretty minimal. so that's, that's kind of a big bonus. And so, but actually as far as the. The training between the two downhills and uphills. Uphills is something that I really am working on because relative to the guys I'm running with, my appeals have actually been a weakness.

[00:35:36] And so that's part of why I moved to the mountains too, so I can have the access and really work on them. But, yeah, I think it's best placed in your, your hard quality days. I mean, he'll, he'll repeats. It builds strength to build fitness, and they're low impact. 

[00:35:49] Rich Ryan: [00:35:49] So in terms of your own training, how.

[00:35:52] Because we mentioned before, you know, it was hard. It's hard to know like, like how well you're improving, when it comes to OCR in general, and unless you have a race out there to see how you're stacking up against people who you thought you might not have been had the same climbing ability. what are some of the ways that you, you've been able to measure your improvement when it comes to Hills.

[00:36:16] Yeah. 

[00:36:16] Taylor Turney: [00:36:16] So for me, I mean, my favorite way is to find a, an uphill trail nearby that I really enjoy. and, and have time, trial efforts. So kind of like find a standard trailer that you have easy access to, that has, you know, pretty consistent conditions at different times of the year and, and just go give a good time trial effort on it.

[00:36:34]I've also used a treadmill, a time trial, and if you use the same treadmill in the same conditions, that can also be a great. Back at, marker. But I just, between the two, I mean, which one's going to be more fun if I have on the schedule? No time, time, trail near point, which is, a short fund mountain, in Anchorage or time trial, you know, the 15%, inclined for 15 minutes.

[00:36:55] Like. They're both going to be hard. They're both going to give us great information about your fitness, but the treadmill sounds miserable. And the mountain, I'm going to go have a blast. So, 

[00:37:05] Rich Ryan: [00:37:05] but that 1515 test is just brutal. Yeah, it is. So 

[00:37:10] Taylor Turney: [00:37:10] it's awful. I mean, it's, it's good. It's really good. And, and Yancy and I use that, especially if you don't have access to you, an uphill trail nearby.

[00:37:18] Like, it's great. Fitness marker to see how your climbing training is going. But it is tough. It's mentally, mentally really tough. 

[00:37:26] Rich Ryan: [00:37:26] Yeah. You can blow yourself up so fast, like the first five minutes, like there's not really recovering from it. You have to, if you're off pace a little bit, you gotta go way down and 

[00:37:33] Taylor Turney: [00:37:33] it just 

[00:37:34] Rich Ryan: [00:37:34] completely screws it up.

[00:37:36] Yeah. so it sounds like, 

[00:37:38] Taylor Turney: [00:37:38] would you take things that were 

[00:37:39] Rich Ryan: [00:37:39] generally like. That you 

[00:37:41] Taylor Turney: [00:37:41] would be able to do 

[00:37:42] Rich Ryan: [00:37:42] on flats, like you mentioned VO two intervals, which you would, which would help prepare like your overall, you know, lack of tolerance or like a temple run, which would be like 20 minutes plus or threshold, which would be, you know, seven to 20 minutes just in the language that I use.

[00:37:57]just kind of take all those runs that you would have on flats and just put them on the Hills, or are there specific ones that you like to do that you found have moved the needle the most. 

[00:38:07]Taylor Turney: [00:38:07] you know, I, I haven't, I think it's, it's good to have a variety. you don't want it all. It's good to put all of the sessions that you mentioned that the, the, the threshold of the tempo, the VO to even, even speed work and efficiency work, like power, like short, 30 seconds, one minute intervals.

[00:38:21]it's great to put all of those on the Hills as kind of a rule of thumb if you're, if you're more susceptible to injury, maybe you have a long history of road and track running and you just seem like every time you run. You know, fastener intervals on the, on the sidewalk, like you get injured. it's a great way if you just knew most of your inner work interval work to the Hills.

[00:38:39]but for me, it's, it's usually based on race specificity. So if I have a flat race coming up, then the intervals that are most specific to that race I will do on the Hill. So if I've got a, if I have a one hour, amount race coming up, that's going to take in the area of one hour. Then I'll do my lactate threshold intervals on the Hill, specific to what I might see in the race.

[00:39:01] And then I'll do some of my other kind of supportive like speed work, or steady state work, on the flats. and if you've got like a really short vertical kilometer, like max power, then you might be doing some of those, a lot more of those via two max intervals on the Hills leading up to that. And then leave your tempo work as kind of a more.

[00:39:18] A flat Stacey session. So I think it's good to mix them up because, even though Hills build great strength and fitness all around, and they will improve your flat running as well, if you move all of your intervals to the Hills, you're going to lose some running economy and some leg turnover. and so it's important to not lose, that piece as well.

[00:39:35] It's really important to keep that speed and like turnover up. so, so yeah, and I think if you. And you never want to leave one component out. It's really good to find a balance. And so, yeah, just using the most specific to your upcoming races, as, as your homework, if you've got a hilly race coming up.

[00:39:54] Rich Ryan: [00:39:54] And I think that's true. That's a good point to bring up because a lot of times training for OCR, but I found it just kind of boils down to what's intuitive and you know, if like you're bad at carries, like carry some heavier shit around. But like. In this. In this sense, it doesn't make sense to always do everything in the mountains because yeah, you might get slower, like you might some of those things if you're always running slow.

[00:40:18] There needs to be time where you are working on that economy and I think that's a great way to do it is to put the tempo stuff on the flats, just to help yourself get into a rhythm, help yourself with pacing. Help, help with just that. And then you, you won't fatigue your legs as much as they can.

[00:40:33] Probably hold a steady state a little bit longer. So 

[00:40:36] Taylor Turney: [00:40:36] it's 

[00:40:37] Rich Ryan: [00:40:37] a good way to balance it. 

[00:40:38] Taylor Turney: [00:40:38] Yeah. And then later in the year, let's say that you're a, you know, Tahoe like a two hour plus hilly race, then you might move, when you get to there, you might move your. Threshold work to, you know, rolling up Hills with some long uphill climbs and then do your speed and efficiency work on the flat so you can maintain that efficiency that way.

[00:40:57]so it really kind of, yeah, it depends on your, I guess, your upcoming goal and just switching it up so that you kind of have a new stimulus. 

[00:41:04] Rich Ryan: [00:41:04] I love that you can like flip it, right? Like you're preparing for something that is going to be a two hour effort. So make your longer race specific bouts on. The trails on the Hills were and still keep that speed.

[00:41:18] So you're still doing flats because I found that it is helpful to not always be doing elevation because it just beats you up man, and trying to measure the two and encounter, and so you need to take a break from it sometimes. 

[00:41:31] Taylor Turney: [00:41:31] Yeah. And actually just on that note. We had kind of talked about like how do you compare, how do you compare your training volume, when flats versus Hills?

[00:41:40]and so something that's just, this isn't scientific or come out of any book, but something that I've just found that works for me is that every 5,000 feet of elevation gain in my training week roughly, equals 10 miles of running. And so if I have a 50 mile a week with 10,000 gain, then that would be.

[00:41:59]the equivalent of a 70 mile a week if I was running off flats. And so that's just, it's just like a ballpark thing that I've noticed, over the last few years that effort wise. Cause I kinda know how, how, a week of volume feels to me and that's how I've kind of figured it works best. 

[00:42:17] Rich Ryan: [00:42:17] I think that's awesome.

[00:42:18] I've never, I met, it's great. It's like, yeah, I'm glad this isn't in a book. That's why I want to John so I can hear her before. So you're saying 5k equals about 10 miles. 

[00:42:27] Taylor Turney: [00:42:27] Yeah. Yeah, just effort and time wise for me, just how I feel after a training week that usually works to be, to be pretty close. Yeah.

[00:42:35] Rich Ryan: [00:42:35] I like that. And I think that's a really cool measure to go about. So yeah, that was a question that I did had it have about managing this volume, because some of the questions that I run into is like, how much. Well on both ends, the people running on the roads, like how many miles I need to run to run a Boston qualifier?

[00:42:53] It's like, well, I don't know. Like, I have no idea. Like, depends on who you are and what you got. And, and same on the other end is like, how many, like, how many kilometers should I be putting in? How much elevation should I be gaining to get ready for the beast in New Jersey? It's the same kind of thing, and people either want to do one or the other.

[00:43:11] So how do you kind of go about measuring that type of volume? Is it just kind of in accordance to that formula? Like if, and just kind of being in a specific spot, like if you were wanted to run 70 to 80 miles per week, you would you use that formula at one way or another or. How does that kind of 

[00:43:29] Taylor Turney: [00:43:29] work?

[00:43:30]you can do that. I think for, so coming from a road track background, like everything was miles, right? How many miles are you running per week? That's that just everybody used miles. But as I switched more to the mountainous efforts and OCR training, I really found that time was a better measure of volume.

[00:43:46]and so how much time are you spending out on, on your feet? because like. Without, without that kind of equivalent equation, like it's really, it's impossible. Like if you're going from mile is you're always going to go for the flat or miles, or like if you're trying to hit 80 miles a week, that that's going to be really tough.

[00:44:01] If you have a lot of mountainous miles, and if you don't know how to compare them can be really, It's not motivating to get out and explore the trails. If like, well, I'm not gonna able to hit my weekly mileage. And so, for me, I use that, that, equation more is just a comparison tool to pass training.

[00:44:16]but as far as like, scheduling my future workouts, I do everything by time and effort. because, you know, pacing doesn't matter when you're out in the mountains. and miles really doesn't matter what the mountains, cause if you're, you know, doing a. Really cool. Seven mile mountain run with a bunch of elevation gain and some scrambling.

[00:44:32] You might be out there a few hours, but on paper, like seven mile run, that's, that's a, you know, a normal or easy day. right. But, you know, that could have been your longer, longer, harder effort for the week, simply because of the time and effort took. So as far as like, when I'm coaching my athletes, I really like to.

[00:44:49] To go about, you know, go do a 50 minute run, and then even the intervals are time-based because then it doesn't matter the terrain you're on, it doesn't matter where you're at, you're just going out for a time and an effort. 

[00:45:01] Rich Ryan: [00:45:01] And that's such a good point and something I need to continuously remind myself.

[00:45:05] It's like time is really a thing and the effort that you're putting in for all aspects and not just for the running. So when you're, when you are plotting out volume in a quarter time, are you separating like the time spent running versus the time. Spent doing other things like strength and mobility or is it all lumped into one or do you break those apart?

[00:45:29]Taylor Turney: [00:45:29] they're broken apart and usually like if I'm, if I'm, planning like a pattern of, of, you know, volume increases and decrease over the next training cycle, the time is usually for the aerobic training. So, robotic running and cross training, whereas the weight training, although it's definitely, you know.

[00:45:47] More stress and more training. I don't really put that into the time equation. although you obviously consider how that affects how much time you can do the other training when you're adding in a certain amount of strength training. 

[00:45:58] Rich Ryan: [00:45:58] Right. And it's, it's not apples to apples, right? So it's like, Oh, I train 12 hours.

[00:46:02] Eight of it was strength training. It's like. That's played to the core. It's like, I don't know what that's going to do for you. cool. And then when you, in those instances, because the 10% rule is awesome when it comes to miles, like the old, like the previous week that you had add 10% to that to slowly build up when it comes to time or.

[00:46:24] In, or elevation. Is there anything that you, do you kind of follow as far as that? Or is it more just how the person's responding, how you're responding and just kind of slowly building up. Yeah, 

[00:46:36] Taylor Turney: [00:46:36] I mean, almost any, any kind of training, like you're, you're going to respond to an hour weightlifting session different than an hour run.

[00:46:43] Like you already pointed that out. Like, there are different stresses. And so, I really, it's based on how the person is responding to the training, because you know, some people can handle, you know, three or four hours a week of strength training depending on the type of. Whatever they're doing per week in their background.

[00:46:59] And, versus someone else who's maybe has been a runner their entire life. And, you know, they, they're just getting into it. And so, every person responds differently. they have different backgrounds. And so, it's really about balancing, the, the components that you need for what your training goals are and then what you can handle healthily.

[00:47:16] Because if you're doing too much aerobic training to really. make any improvements in your strength, like your, your, just putting way too much training volume and you just can't handle it, then it's not, it's not going to be beneficial. And so, if you're a road runner, that's, you know, you just need, you know, the, if you're a serious road runner, say like a marathoner.

[00:47:35]strength training is obviously very important. but really you're just doing just enough to stay healthy and balanced that will support your running versus OCR where we really do need to. You know, trained to pick up a sand bag and carry it up the mountain and do a drip obstacles and carry your body weight and all that thing, that stuff.

[00:47:51] So, it's about what you can handle and what you're training for. 

[00:47:55] Rich Ryan: [00:47:55] Yeah. And that makes sense. And it's, and it makes more sense to break them apart really. And, and to make sure that you are just being honest with yourself when it comes to time. Because he's there. They're like, what I call vanity metrics when it comes to the amount of vertical gain that you're getting, or the amount of miles that you're running.

[00:48:10] It's just something, and yeah, it might make you feel good to make, you might make you feel more confident, but you nailed it when you said that you might be less likely to do the mountains when you want to run 10 miles that day. It's like, well, whatever, out for an hour, Tony, or for an hour 40 you know?

[00:48:27] And that totally makes sense. And it's hard to break away from that. When you know you have this idea when you want to. When you're so focused on a result that you're like, I just want to be able to run it to get on the eight on a true podium. If I can get 10,000 feet of vertical in a week, then I should be able to do it.

[00:48:46] It's like focusing on the wrong thing, you know? 

[00:48:48] Taylor Turney: [00:48:48] Yeah, definitely. That's something that, is kind of a struggle for every runner is that, that comparison trap, you know, because, what works for one guy isn't going to work from you and you come from different places in different, you know, training backgrounds, different histories.

[00:49:01]you really got to, and that's why it's helpful to have a coach because, if you say, Oh, I'm going to go train like Kilian Jordan, like, I promise you, you're going to be. You know, overtrained fatigued and not racing anywhere near where you want to be. Because most of us just can't handle his, his volume and invert and intensity.

[00:49:19]whereas if, if, if you really do have the longterm goal of getting to that higher level, you really need to focus on what's best for you right now in this moment and to build up to whatever future, you know, aspirations you have. 

[00:49:32] Rich Ryan: [00:49:32] right. And like. The internal perspective is like, well, if I just trained like this, I would be like him.

[00:49:38] And that's not the case. Like when you're right, you don't, you don't have that perspective on yourself sometimes and it's easy to get carried away and just kind of roped into what other people are doing. And that's why things like Strava to me are, are more of a detriment to people's training as a whole than than.

[00:49:58] A benefit, like I think it should be fun and that's it. I don't think it's a platform to learn on. I don't think it's to connect on. I don't think he should even look at into people's. Splits or anything. You should just 

[00:50:11] Taylor Turney: [00:50:11] see, it'd be 

[00:50:12] Rich Ryan: [00:50:12] like, cool, kudos, or just put your stuff up, get some kudos and be on your way because he really can get tied up in some nasty comparison.

[00:50:20] Stuff like that. 

[00:50:21] Taylor Turney: [00:50:21] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's something you struggle with. I really try to keep a lot of high, lighthearted and don't, don't get too far into that trap, but on the other hand, if it is a cool tool, to, to. It's almost like a really, an easy, like, online training log for me. So I keep everything on Strava and I love going back and like, if I can look at the map and see what I wrote and how I felt like it's, it's, it's awesome to have those memories and also see like the, the training log over time.

[00:50:48] But then again, you also don't want to, You shouldn't be out shooting for segments, you know, on a normal training run. Cause that can be, I'm just out for a normal easy distance ride and Oh, but I remember this one saying it trying to go all out, you know, kind of run, not really conducive to healthy training in the long run 

[00:51:06] Rich Ryan: [00:51:06] or something that you did the past time that you had, like your segment trying to PR something.

[00:51:10] That doesn't mean anything on that specific run and you come away like, Oh that was great. I got a, my personal records like that was not. The point of what we're trying to do here. I just love it. I love the way it's laid out. I love the way it organizes, like visually, like it's better than some of the, like I use training peaks for to put in most of my stuff and that's really my training log.

[00:51:31] But the way things look on Strava and just gives you a good snapshot. Sometimes I'm just like, man, I wish the other thing did this, but I can deal with that. I could do without the social component. I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily think that is helpful. To anybody. but you mentioned the 

[00:51:46] Taylor Turney: [00:51:46] coach, so, 

[00:51:47] Rich Ryan: [00:51:47] I know you've been working with the auntie and you guys just dropped, some mountain training programs, right?

[00:51:53] So tell us a little bit about that. What do you got going on. 

[00:51:55] Taylor Turney: [00:51:55] Yeah, so the, we just dropped a trail announcing mountain running program. it's, kind of the format is, it's kind of like, if you're familiar with the ANSI, he does three quality workouts a week. That's all of his subscriptions usually have, kind of that format.

[00:52:08] And so with the mountain running program, it's, It's usually formatted like a, something focused on speed, something focused on like your endurance. I kept both threshold steady state efforts and then a longer run. And, and they, w but part of that component though is that we also have, I try to incorporate running drills and really basic plyometrics into the warmup.

[00:52:28] And so, the thing with plyometrics is they're super fun, and they've, they've got a lot of benefit. but if you. It's really easy to, to, to go, you know, too much too soon. And so, if you do join the Yancy running program, It's not going to be a lot of volume. It's very basic, simple, easy stuff.

[00:52:45] And we're going to progress over time, so that you build up to that level, of, of being able to do some cooler stuff, a little bit more volume, but the focus is very much running, like the plyometric is just a small component, usually in the warmup, that we add in just to build in some of that, coordination and agility, for our future training rents.

[00:53:02]I mean, as far as, overall coaching goes, it's more of a self directed program. So, as a personal coach who also does, you know, one-on-one, personalized coaching, I think that's, if you're really fully invested in your training, it's usually best to have something that is specifically written for you and your goals.

[00:53:21] Right. and that's, that's kinda like the best. Training program you can get, but that's also takes a lot more time and effort on the coach's part. And so, not everybody wants to pay that much for, for a full time professional coach. and then also some people are really like, kind of directing their own training and having more of the reins in their own training.

[00:53:41] And so this, the ANSI program kind of fills the gap where it's, it's progressive. it's, it's, It's, you know, you kind of, over time we go through different training cycles. So it's, it's a little bit better than just like a stock training program cause you also have the community. And then you also have access to ask or access to the coaches to ask us questions any time.

[00:53:59] But it kind of feels that in between, between just like a online training plan and the, the full time professional coaching. so. 

[00:54:07] Rich Ryan: [00:54:07] Right? And I used to bang on the drum so hard that, you know, the best way to do it is to have one-on-one and one-on-one. Like you won't get the best results. And it says one-on-one, and like, that's what I do.

[00:54:18] So, I mean, it was a little bit of like speaking like, Hey, my product's better, but. It's not for everybody. Like everybody has different preferences and some people are cool with something that's online and just taking it and doing it when they want to and moving in and out of what they feel is going to be helpful for them.

[00:54:33] And so we want to just like a little bit of guidance, like, Oh, when I do OCR stuff, I don't really want to think about it. I just want to do this workout that's going to progress. I'm going to make me better. That's proven something like what you guys got going on in Yancy, but there's other people who know they need that, like more of that accountability or want that personalized touch or just want to be like cared about a little bit more.

[00:54:50] Right, right. Not everybody does. 

[00:54:53] Taylor Turney: [00:54:53] Yeah. Yeah. It's 

[00:54:53] Rich Ryan: [00:54:53] good to have those offerings. 

[00:54:55] Taylor Turney: [00:54:55] Yeah, definitely. And, I think the cool thing about this program is, is, It is week to week and we have, you have access to a Facebook group. And so, you kind of have like this team aspect, so, you're not the only one.

[00:55:06] It's kinda like when you're in college, right? You're, if you're on a college team, every workout is written for, for the team. It's not written for you, right? But you, but you have the guys around you that are helping you, train hard, and you have the community aspect and, and, and that, that can be really beneficial in itself.

[00:55:21] And so. yeah, it's really just finding about what's best for you, what fits your budget and what's going to help you. You know. What's going to make training most fun because in the long run, the worst training program, just like just say an awfully laid out program that really isn't written well or thought out well, if you're motivated and you, you believe in it and you're enjoying it, you're going to have better success than with a, the best.

[00:55:44] Most personalized approach with a coach you don't like and workouts you, you hate 

[00:55:49] Rich Ryan: [00:55:49] a hundred percent, a hundred percent like the best program in the world won't do anything. If you don't do it. That's, that's a hundred percent like 

[00:55:58] Taylor Turney: [00:55:58] you got to love the process too. 

[00:56:00] Rich Ryan: [00:56:00] Totally. cool. Awesome. So I definitely check those things out.

[00:56:04]I'll make sure to link in the show notes. And where can people find your own personalized 

[00:56:08] Taylor Turney: [00:56:08] coaching? Yeah. My personalized coaching is through redox running. and so there's a, there's redox CrossFit here in Anchorage is an amazing gym. And so I kind of teamed up with them to offer the personalized coaching.

[00:56:20] And my personal coaching is exhibited through an app so I can do it remotely to anyone, wherever they're at. And it's, And it's personalized to you, but yeah, sign up through redox running. Very cool. 

[00:56:30]Rich Ryan: [00:56:30] yeah, so I mean, if we ever get to race again, what were some of the goals you had this year? What were you thinking?

[00:56:35] I mean, we did, Jacksonville together. we both missed obstacles and it was a bummer, 

[00:56:41] Taylor Turney: [00:56:41] but, 

[00:56:41] Rich Ryan: [00:56:41] yeah, you would, you, you were, you were sitting pretty well, right. And then just straight up missed the bell. 

[00:56:46] Taylor Turney: [00:56:46] Oh yeah, man. I was sitting around 12th place, I think with you and Jose and Kirk, right on the tails of Kirk to went and Nick Riker and a, yeah, I got no issues whatsoever.

[00:56:56] I swing through the bells. This was right near the end of the race, and I was feeling great. And, just at the end, I don't know if I blinked or, or what, but I just, my hand is swung past the bell and I dropped to the ground. I was like, Oh, no. Yeah. So that was, I was, Sitting close to a top 10. So for me, my, my big goal for this year was to try to break into top 10 in the U S series.

[00:57:17]and for me, I think it's most realistic at one of the upcoming mountain races. So I'm, Jacksonville was super fun, but I'm really looking forward to like Utah Tahoe, those this year. So, and then as far as longterm, if, if they're able to and everything's working out and everybody's healthy, I really have, gonna try to hit Tahoe hard and then if I can make the travel, the ABI Dhabi, even though that's not necessarily my wheelhouse, it just sounds like a really cool experience. So I was excited for those. 

[00:57:41] Rich Ryan: [00:57:41] That'd be awesome. I don't know what that's going to be like. There was some, there was a CrossFit event.

[00:57:47] That's supposed to take place in Dubai in, December. And that got canceled already, so, yeah, I don't know what it's like over there. I did have, I was, there was an athlete, I was coaching who was from, you know, the Emirates, and he made it seem like it was pretty bad that people are taking it pretty much, but who knows, and I'm not even sure about Tahoe, man, like California seeking this thing.

[00:58:09] You know, really seriously, and rightfully so, but they are there. They've been really, really tight. So I don't know what that's going to be like in terms of events for the entire year. 

[00:58:16] Taylor Turney: [00:58:16] Yeah. Yeah. It's tough to schedule it. And as far as like, if you do have, you know, races are really motivating and it really helps people get excited about training.

[00:58:24] And so all these events getting canceled, like people's training is, I'm sure with some of my athletes and even myself, sometimes it's just out of whack, not feeling as motivated because you don't have a set go on the schedule. so something that I'm trying to do is. Let's say you have a race coming up that you're not sure is going to happen on the same day or in a similar time, maybe plan some sort of cool project or time trial that you're really excited about.

[00:58:48]you know, on a similar time. So if you try, if I'm training up for, you know, Tahoe and Tahoe gets canceled, I'm probably gonna go do some pool mountain. Tom trial route that I'm really excited about, just so I still have the motivation and you feel it get some sort of sense of accomplishment with all the hard work you put in over the next few months.

[00:59:03] Rich Ryan: [00:59:03] Right. And it kind of circles back to, we talked about in the beginning, it's like you, it makes you put you in, makes you put it in perspective as to why you're doing this. And if you really are enjoying the training and enjoying pushing yourself. Then like maybe a mountain course will be somewhat satisfying.

[00:59:19] Probably not the total, because you don't get, you don't get that, see how you're stacking up, but there's still value to be gained. with that you did the, the ORM. Last time, 

[00:59:30] Taylor Turney: [00:59:30] 12 hours. 

[00:59:31] Rich Ryan: [00:59:31] It didn't seem like you did it in any, in any capacity to try to win because you did it in the mouth, 

[00:59:37] Taylor Turney: [00:59:37] but yeah. No, that was, it was, I mean, it's right in the middle of, I was kind of feeling the same thing, just like, Oh, all the races are canceled.

[00:59:43] I'm really don't know what to do. When he made that cool 12 hour event, I never done anything over. you know, the distance of a Spartan ultra, which is about, you know, five or six hours. And so, but you know, if you're going for max distance on the roads or a PAC trail, this really didn't sound fun. So it's kind of that same philosophy.

[00:59:58] Like what, what excites you? So for me, I just, I picked a route in the mountains near my house that was just a really fun, really great views, a lot of vert and. I just did that all day. And, it was, it was super challenging, but beautiful views and, and I ended up coming out in a minute, like really, really enjoying it and having a cool experience.

[01:00:17] Rich Ryan: [01:00:17] How much of her did you end up in that 12 hours? 

[01:00:20]Taylor Turney: [01:00:20] I think I had about, 16,000, 500 feet in the 12 hours we wrecked. I was, I mean, obviously like that that evening after the, after that day I felt awful, but overall, kind of like recovery wise in the days after I, I actually think I. Fared better than the guys who went for 70, 80 miles.

[01:00:41]because I had, you know, I, the route I picked was nice, steep uphill. So I was power hiking most of that, and then a gradual soft dirt downhill. So I actually think that overall I had less pounding and more variety, which was, which is great. 

[01:00:55] Rich Ryan: [01:00:55] How much recovery are you taking in between where you're trying to get out as fast as possible or.

[01:01:00] What were you doing? 

[01:01:01] Taylor Turney: [01:01:01] No, I was just every, cause you had to log every five miles to checking on semen, longer lapse. So, I was just, the loop I picked was two and a half miles. So I do two loops and then I stopped for 10 to 15 minutes to fuel up and log my laps and keep out. I wasn't really. I wasn't, I wasn't in racing mode, so I wasn't really trying to minimize, like my rests and like, I was really just trying to have a fun, healthy day and go all day.

[01:01:24] So, yeah, just short breaks. and, and. No, I wasn't trying to, I didn't have any specific strategy. I was just trying to enjoy it and get as much effort as I could. Do you 

[01:01:34] Rich Ryan: [01:01:34] foresee yourself doing something like, ultra world champs or anything? Is that like, did 

[01:01:38] Taylor Turney: [01:01:38] that 

[01:01:39] Rich Ryan: [01:01:39] spark anything in you? Like maybe for, 12 more hours.

[01:01:44] Taylor Turney: [01:01:44] So I, that's part of what the reason why I did. I wanted to test to see if I enjoyed that type of thing and, and if I could even handle it. And, it definitely did. it made me excited about, you know, future ultras. But as far as like my, my focus, over the longterm, I'm not really going to be doing, jumping into any real, ultra training anytime soon.

[01:02:03]but it also, for me, it has to be like an exciting venue. And so if, if it was going back, if the 24 hour world champs are going back to Sweden, like I was, I was set on that, like I was gonna go for this year. And then when they moved at, to, to Killington, not a winter course, I don't know about the elevation, but also different timing too.

[01:02:22]I don't like that it's, you know, before all the big races versus after. so I probably not going to jump in this year, but, Future years. Maybe I enjoyed it enough that I think I'd, I'd try some 24 hour old trips and stuff in the future. 

[01:02:35] Rich Ryan: [01:02:35] Nice man. Yeah. And that's what's cool about this to do, to explore something like that, which you normally wouldn't do and he can kind of project out what if that's enjoyable or something you're going to do in the future.

[01:02:44] So. 

[01:02:45] Taylor Turney: [01:02:45] Yeah. No, it was perfect. Honestly, it's perfect timing right now to test, just to test your boundaries and see if you like that kind of thing. Cause you're in a year long training cycle with all the races we have going on. If you're not focused on ultra, it's, it's really hard to fit that in. so yeah, now's a good time.

[01:02:58] Rich Ryan: [01:02:58] I'm going to do the one at the end of the month. 

[01:03:01] Taylor Turney: [01:03:01] No, no, it was, it was super fun. But now I'm focused on, getting back into my kind of normal training group and another 12 hour alter doesn't really 

[01:03:11] Rich Ryan: [01:03:11] fit well into that. That's kind of the same way I want to be prepared and I would do, it would have to be all concrete for me, and I would just like, I don't find that fun.

[01:03:20] I don't think that, I think that would really suck. 

[01:03:22] Taylor Turney: [01:03:22] yeah. But 

[01:03:22] Rich Ryan: [01:03:22] because hopefully we can get back out there. I don't know. Maybe someday, maybe we can go back to Jacksonville. 

[01:03:28] Taylor Turney: [01:03:28] Yeah, yeah. I saw that. I, I, I won't be there. I mean, I hope it goes well, but, I'll be waiting until they kind of figured that the series out.

[01:03:35] And, and also we were just at Jackson. I think I'm going to wait until, either a series of race or a cool mountain race that comes up and. Yeah, it looks like it's safe to do so 

[01:03:44] Rich Ryan: [01:03:44] I'm, I'm not doing an open, an open race.

[01:03:51]cool man. Awesome. Tell her why I appreciate you popping on. Where can people follow you on socials? We got you at redox running. I'll make sure to link that in the show notes, but where could they find you on social media or 

[01:03:59] Taylor Turney: [01:03:59] anything. Yeah, I'm T Ridge runner. fun side note Ridge is actually my middle name, so I don't know why my parents, decided to name me that, but it seems to fit pretty well.

[01:04:08] So cool. 

[01:04:09] Rich Ryan: [01:04:09] Yeah. Cause it does like, Oh, this is an interesting take on it, on the way he likes to run, but that's sweet. 

[01:04:15]Taylor Turney: [01:04:15] yeah, so T Ridge runner. Cool man. 

[01:04:17] Rich Ryan: [01:04:17] All right, well I'm first stop will stay on here for a little bit, but we'll just sign off for now, so I appreciate you popping on. 

[01:04:23] Taylor Turney: [01:04:23] Yeah, thanks rich.