Shaun Stephens-Whale - Introducing TORC Talks.

Shaun Stephens-Whale is a Spartan Pro, Elite mountain runner, and seasoned bear fighter. 

He stops on the podcast for the  first installment of an ongoing series of athlete-focused interviews called "TORC Talks."

We talk about how he found immediate success as an OCR athlete and what he needs to do to improve his overall speed so he can get next-level results. We also touch on how ninja warrior training in a gym setting can help your OCR performance and what to do. Plus we get some storytime on his bear encounters. 

TORC is an acronym for The Obstacle Racing Collaboration. TORC is a team of elite athletes who will be working together to help get better results to push the sport forward. 

The team is compromised of 15 members - some you may know, some you will get to know.

See the full roster here.

Follow on Instagram here

The TORC talk will give you the nuts and bolts behind what these high-end athletes do to prepare themselves for training and racing. 

Today in the first installment of TORC talk you will get to know Shaun Stephens Whale who is fresh off of a third-place finish in OCR Stars. 

We talk about his background as a mountain and tower runner and how it has prepared him for immediate success in OCR. Then we dive into some of the things he plans to do to take his results to the next level.

Follow Shaun @verticalrunning_eh

Transcript

new music, same voice over top. My name is rich Ryan. So this music, what it does indicate a brand new show. Today, we are introducing a new segment called torque. And so first torque is an acronym for the obstacle, racing, collaboration and talks the team of elite athlete together through the 2021 season.

To help get better results so they can help push the sport forward. I'm fortunate enough to be part of this team and it's comprised of myself and 14 other members. some of the names you will know some of the names you might not know, but you will get to know, and you will get to know them through these, these segments called torque talk.

And basically what this is going to be. It's going to give you the insight of these specific athletes and allow you to follow along their progress and to learn from them and how they've gotten such good results and how they plan to continue to get good results through the 2021 season. So to check out the full roster of athletes, give us a follow at.

The obstacle racing collab on Instagram underscores underneath between all the words, or you can check out the website@torqueocr.com. So these torque talks they're typically going to be later in the week, thinking Thursday or Friday, and the typical reinforced running show. We'll be on Monday or Tuesday, we're going to set that schedule in, and those release dates.

We're going to lock those in. I'll keep you posted. But today I was excited to bring this to you. This is our first installment of a torque talk and it's with my friend, Sean Stevens. Well, who was fresh off of a third place finish in OCR stars. And we talk about his background as a mountain runner and a tower runner and how that's actually prepared him for immediate success in OCR.

One of the rare people who came into OCR and had done well right from the jump. Then we dive into some of the things he needs to do to get his results to that next level and really what that next level means for him. So at a great time chatting, I think you'll learn a lot from him and his training and his approach.

And then you can catch the actual video version of this podcast on the torque YouTube channel. So give us a subscribe to that as well. So you can get all the newest torque talks and follow along the team throughout the 2021 season. Cool. So here is my friend. Sean Stevens will

tell us sort of about yourself. Like where are you? Where do you live right now? Yeah, so, I'm on the West coast of Canada. pretty close to Vancouver in a place called Squamish. I think for those who know about Squamish, it's, it's better known as a rock climbing Mecca. it's pretty amazing. All the people that are out here, it's a really strong community of.

Sort of diverse, outdoors people, a lot of climbers. a lot of guys who are into like skiing, snowboarding, and of course with Whistler, just around the corner. and then, just, the running scene that was actually really picked up here over the last few years. we got like a really good group of guys, probably like 10, 15 guys here who are just like hammered it out.

Like a lot of the guys here aren't even working, they're just sort of training full time trying to. Live the life and, yeah, it's been really, really great living here. Is it like an outdoor destination? Cause you grew up relatively close to there as well, right? Yeah. I grew up on the coast, which is just like 50 K away from there.

It's also very close to Vancouver. and I mean, I always knew about Squamish when I was in school. It's always thinking like, after I graduate, you know, Squamish is where I want to be. Yeah. Me and my buddy sort of made a plan. when I was studying at Victoria, to come over here after I graduated and we were both going to come over here, we booked a buyer.

Dan's live in our vans and, just train for obstacle cursors. So what happened did you buy the van? Yeah, well, my buddy ended up buying a, an RV and, and did it, and I ended up moving back with my parents and,

yeah, I worked for one of us and, it took me a couple extra years to get here, but I made it you're there. So, and is it, when I think of a place like that, is there, is it heavy, like transplants from all over like, Specifically, BC or is it from all over the country or are the like, transplants from United States to clump there?

Like, is it a destination? People come like to rock climb to ski, to snowboard to, so are there people who are like from there or is it everybody there kind of has like the same interest? I think it's kind of like a mix, being in the outdoor scene. There's I would say there's two areas that Squamish, like you got that the people who were born here.

And don't necessarily appreciate what scholarship is and has to offer. And then you have the people who have moved here. for instance, like both my roommates, one of them from, England and the other one is from the States. And, so I mean, that's, that's pretty typical of that. People in Squamish, you have all the Ozzies that come to Whistler as a way.

So a lot of people from down under there, But it's, it's a really good mix here. Yeah. But everyone is super enthusiastic, right? Like, can you run into anybody and instantly just assume that they're doing something outdoorsy, it's pretty amazing. Honestly, like you feel like you have to step up your game when you here because like walk into a random bike shop.

And, it'd be like a guy at the counter who's like on the world cup for downhill. And then, you know, like the guy in the back who like. Rock climbs or boulders professionally. And it's like, they're just guys in Squamish or girls in Squamish. And I mean, there are just so many of them and when one, so where I live, it's extremely urban.

I'm in Philadelphia and it's like not necessarily outdoorsy in any way. And. I for the past couple of years, I was just like, man, if I could just be somewhere, like if I could be in Colorado or wherever, where there was like, like, like minded people around, like, I feel like it would make me step my game up and really kind of commit to it or just be around and like learn a lot more.

And, was that the case for you? Like when you moved to Squamish, did your game elevate. Well, that was, that was the idea, the execution. How did it, do you know, like a couple of days, a couple of my buddies who lived here, when I, when I first moved, I, they were like, they're super hardcore, like ski, mountaineers.

they do tons and tons of vertical week. Like their average week is like six, 7,000 meters, which is like 20,000 feet at a typical week for them. And so on skis. A lot of them skis someone foot as well. or they're mixed train athletes, but, it, it was, it was really motivating to see what you're up to.

And that was like, man, I just want to be doing that because you can't help, but get super fit doing that stuff. So that was the idea when I moved here, I've, I've dealt a lot with injuries in my career and it's kind of. Pushed itself into Squamish as well. I'm trying to be smart with it, but, lately I've been injury for you, which has been good.

And, just gotta be a bit smarter with my training, but it's, it's super, it's super easy to train when you have like four or five guys who you can text at any time and be like, Hey, you want to go for a two hour, run a day. You want to do tempo and they're all like around your pace. And so, you know, you can, you can kind of trust them to.

To do what you want to do. And I mean, that makes total sense to have those that like grouping of people. And like we had talked about like, that's kind of why people are there in the first place and you didn't go there to start  career. Right. So like tell us what the Genesis of like, getting to Squamish was like what you were doing beforehand.

And like what made you decide to like, go with there and like, With the outcome of like stepping up and being full-time like OCR. Yeah. This is kind of a long story, but, I think running most of my life, I've always said about sort of identified as a runner. really, since I was like 11, 12 years old, I've kept a training log.

I've got like diaries. and, I'm still sorry. So you still have the training logs? Yeah, they're they're in my parents' home right now, but you look at them. Yeah. they're pretty great. but, but seriously, like, even since that age, like I would, I would put off like parties or something if I had a training run that day.

So I took it really serious from a young age. and then I went to school and so I went to UBC first and there was a varsity athlete there ran with the Thunderbirds. and so I had four years of running there and really loved the team atmosphere. I, I wasn't. I wasn't a great track runner. and I mean, even when I was there, I started gravitating towards like the more uphill train.

So either mountain running or tower running. And, then I moved on to university of Victoria, where I met, Chris Watson, who ended up being my roommate for four years. And Chris is, one of the OGs and not running in Canada has been on the Canadian team. Like. 10 15 times. I don't know. Anyways, it was great living with him because we were very like-minded and very, both very focused.

And so, both sort of had the same goals of, you know, becoming the best MapMyRun as we could. And, he, along with, I had a, had a litany of injuries, which, unfortunately kind of that stalled his career a bit. And so in 2015, heard about. Spartan. and at the time we, I mean, yeah, it wasn't, I think when we first learned about Sparta, wasn't really seen as necessarily like a serious sport, how we look at it.

And, like when did you, when did you come across. So the first race I saw that was obstacle course racing was called like the urban Avalon. And it was like a men's health race. And it was like in the city, it was like in New York and Chicago. And this was probably in like 2009, 2010. I didn't do it. Cause I was still living at home and like had no money.

And I was like, I'm going to go and do something to be the best at this ever. And then, and then I saw it and then Spartan kind of popped up on the radar. And cause I was started like looking at all these things like warrior dash and Spartan and everything like that. I didn't really, I didn't do a race until 2013, and kind of thought the same thing, but w how did, how did you, how'd you hear of it?

Like, just how anybody else hears it, just like people doing it. Yeah. I actually heard it. I, I was like, doing a couple of races that fall, and I was talking to a buddy of mine, Gary Robbins, who, Is sort of a race director in Vancouver and very well known. but he, you know, the director of the Spartan event is like, Hey, you should give some

And, so I was like might as well. I mean, nothing to lose went up there. did pretty well. And, ended up going to the world championships the very next weekend. Tell us more about that first race. How did you do, like what. Yeah. So, so the sun peaks race, I mean, I'm, I'm the like prefects this with the fact that the sun peaks race is very much a mountain runners course.

That carries a very light. It was a beast to distance. So we're talking 21 K with, well, over a thousand meters of climbing. So I think I ended up winning by those 15 minutes. You won by 15 minutes over Austin. do you know Austin? Yeah. Yeah. You beat him by 15 minutes. I think it was around there. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure of the time, but okay.

So you're like, all right, well, and if anyone's going to be prepared, like I've found that the people who do have the easiest transition. Are those who are familiar with, with a trail. And, but it's hard for like younger people to really have that type of background, but you were dead set on that. It seems like even from when you were at university of like, that's, what you want it to do is like, be that way and train that way.

So it makes sense that you're able to do it. Did you get all the obstacles? Yeah, I actually, so I hit the sphere, which was surprising. I'd never thrown a spear before. And I was like, that's easy. little did I know, like my spirit throw percentages, like under 50 by luck, I guess the only one I didn't get was this, there was a sled full and it was like, it was like deep mud, right at the top of the right of the top of the course.

And I just couldn't get the slides open. Do they make you burpee that one? Sorry. Do you have to do burpees for that? You had to do burpees for that one. Yeah, but those are the only burpees I did on the course. everything else was super light. and still, I was like, after the race, I looked up who Austin was and I realized like he finished the top 15 or 20 at the world championships the previous year.

And, so yeah, I, I contacted the rep with Spartan and, they got me an accommodation. What? Yeah. Are you serious? Ended up rooming with Jonathan Elvin actually. Ah, really what it's doing and 15 w was that the first year of Tahoe? I think so. Yes. Yeah. I think 14 was because Alvin would have won the year before.

Right. I think so. Yeah. You're just like rooming with this. Guy's like, yeah, one last year and you're like, Oh, well I'm going to win this year. It was so funny. I was, I feel like I was so like jaded going into it, because I, I did have, like, I was talking to Chris before I went down and we were talking about like, Oh, this is gonna be hilarious.

Like that, whatever the prize money is, I go, where do we get it? Did you, you, so you were like, I beat this guy. I looked in, I looked into him as you should, like, I would do the same thing. I would do that on the track all the time. If I'm like near some is like, Oh my God, this guy is like, actually like a eight 45 steeple guy lost somebody like three seconds really in years.

That means I'm going to be live in eight 15, sadly. Yeah. Yeah. So like, So, yeah, you looked at him and you're like, all right, well, I smashed him by 15 minutes. He was top 15 in the world. I'm going to at least get top three. I kind of made these kind of baseless claims about how I do. and yeah, it was actually funny cause I was talking to Jonathan, Prior to the race.

And, like we didn't really talk that much. but I was like, Hey, who do you think would be the best in the world that also coats racing, if anyone could do it? is that the time I was like, Oh man, the people in  are not like the best guys who could be racing like Kenyon or whatever, that could be better.

but, just, just on reflection, I just feel like that's. That was really stupid. I mean, was he like me? Like, I am the best, the end that would be at this. If anybody could do it, what did he say? That's what he did say, actually. but, I mean, if I be completely honest, I actually, I literally think Jonathan Albin. Anyone in the world to line up the race. And I think it would, but I know what you mean. Like you could say like, okay, if Galen Rupp did some pull-ups, you know, ran on some trails. Yeah, like his capacity to do work, you would think would translate over to obstacle course racing.

Just that, just the way that, you know, guys like myself, or like, like Nick Riker on the team, a guys who, or Nick Mason who have like this big capacity to do work, but not necessarily the work that needs to be done. Yeah. You would think there are people who would be able to do better. Like you said, a Kenyans Ethiopians, like yeah.

Have them carry some rocks for awhile and see how it goes. But. Totally. It doesn't really seem to always work out that way. No, like you looked at a guy like max kin, like he's a, he's a really strong guy. And then he is like an amazingly well-rounded athlete, like rolled down on champion, like eight 30 steeple guy, like two 14 marathoner, like he's got crazier engine.

I mean, he stepped up in some of the Spartan races and I don't think he's. On that. Well, he's done, he's done about as well as he would in the S and like his like mountain running, you know, like he doesn't do more better, you know, he's not right. Dominating because if you wasn't, because you would think for someone like him, who has, if he had the ability to come in and wind Spartan, the money in Spartan is probably as good as mountain running.

It's better. Right? So like I'm down to a money thing for someone like him, if. Cause if he was going to dominate, he would be here. Absolutely. Yeah. so, okay, so you talk shit to Alvin and he doesn't win that year. Kilian wins, right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. how did you do, well, a lot worse than I thought I do, but on reflection actually, not that bad.

yeah, I mean, I started, it's at altitude and I. I'm not the greatest altitude rather than to be with. what's, what's a squat. Squamish is, is it basically sea level right here? Yeah. So, yeah, it kind of crushed me right from the start to be honest. and the, her voice was pretty early on that year and, wasn't able to get that up.

So I had to burp you out on that. I think I ended up doing 150 burpees that year. that was, and it was flipped, right. That's when it headed up the big steep Hill first and then the S the S the first climb that is now, I think it was the second climb, at least when I went the next year in 2016. And that's how it was like, we shot, away from the, the, like the gondola.

I'm not sure what direction in the world that is, but yeah, I don't even know if we went. It's kind of all a bit fuzzy now. I can't even remember if we went over the small climb or if we just did the big one, but anyways, yeah, it crushed me 900, 150. Burpees is a lot of burpees. You're like sore from like burpees.

Yeah. I remember the bucket care that, that thing like gave me nightmares for us. I'd never experienced pain like that in my life. Like the bucket is right near the end. And I was starting to get a bit of momentum back. I was starting to pick them off a couple of a couple of guys and I was like, okay, could still, still like end up maybe routing for top 10 or something.

But as soon as I hit that bucket, man, I just got destroyed. I think that bucket took me like half an hour to get there. Man. Yeah. That was like, yeah, that's fill your own. Fill your own bucket. Hold it in front of you. Well, in front of you, just like your back is on fire the whole time, can't really put it down.

Like yeah. Yeah. Every time you put it down, you're wasting tons of times. So it's not really efficient, but I mean, what can you do? So back then, it was like, if I made it through a bucket of, without like, Dropping to a knee and like setting the thing down for a little bit. I was really excited about it.

Like, cause it was, I would always need to just like stop for a little bit. I don't remember the last time I stopped for a bucket, Gary. I don't understand why those buckets were so much the ones that are now. Cause aren't they like the same size. Maybe they're filling for material or there for the same size.

I don't, we can't see what's in it anymore. The lid on there. Yeah. But I don't know either. I mean, whenever it comes down to something like that, I just always assume we're just better prepared. You know, the first year, first year or two, when I was at it, it was just, I still like run a little bit, little bit of weight, but like, you know, it was like what I was training for, but not like.

Not like to be the best possible version of myself and obstacle course racing. So I just don't think I w and I just probably didn't want to do it in training. I was like, this is stupid. I'm not going to do it in training, but now it's like, I'll do the stupid stuff for training, for sure. Yeah. So what place did you end up?

ended up 18th that yet. Okay. So they have less sneaking to the top 20, which isn't terrible. Yeah. On reflection. Did Austin, these are B2. you know what I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, he's really good at that course. He's been like top 10, a couple of times since, since then. Austin's such a beast. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

He's an amazing athlete. Yeah. so after that, were you, were you all in, were you like, okay, like, this is what I want to do. Cause I mean that, like, it sounds like the first race was. Maybe not the best representation, but, and the Tahoe is also an extreme version of a Spartan race typically, or at least it used to be is like, all right, you're going to come here.

It's going to be longer than most races. And it's going to be the most unfair that we could possibly make it. And it's still kind of that way. But, yeah. What was that like for you then? Because what were you, were you training just for mountains because you had some, a stint there where you were doing.

Specifically tower stuff too, right? Like what were you doing that year in 2015? Yeah. Before that first Spartan race. Yeah, I was, I was actually a pretty good mound running shape. I didn't go to the world championships that year, but, I was, I was in pretty good shape going into September. And so I kind of went on a spree of races.

I think I did like six races and six weekends. and so it got pretty crazy, But, yeah, I, I, I do feel like with the spermaries I think at least in most courses, having like a strong running or aerobic base is probably like the most important thing. Assuming you have all the other characteristics already, And so I, I do feel like, I mean, 18 is still my best finish at the world championships.

So like, despite the fact that I had no idea what I was doing, really, the fact that, you know, not running wise, I was aerobically fit, I think like enabled me to, to do that. Well. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. It's funny how. How that has worked out over the years. Like my first year was the next year, 2016, like I said, I think it was like 34th and I got murdered.

I like missed a bunch of stuff. I probably did close to 120, a hundred. Like there was three obstacles right at the end. And I just did 90 burpees to finish the, I was like, okay, like, I'm completely done. My parents. They're cheering for me. I'm just like taking 10 minutes to do 150 yards. but that year I finished like 34th and last year, which was the best OCR shape I've ever been in.

I was like 27th, you know? So I was like, there's not that much. Just like the sport is just really getting more and more competitive. do you feel like that is the case, or do you feel like, has it been injuries for you that is more. Kind of the reason why I haven't outperformed that first year, or what do you think is, has happened that you haven't gotten beyond that point?

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of a, a little bit of B. I, I definitely do feel like, like where I am now. if, like all SocialChorus wise, if it has to be in the same shape, I think I'll be done much better that year. but at the same time, the depth is, is definitely increasing. So, I mean, it's hard to say exactly how much, but I would say like maybe a 15th then would be like a 25th now kind of thing.

Yeah, I think that's fair. Internationally. Things are getting much better too. And I mean, even domestically there's a lot more depth like yeah. Anybody, but it could be a mix from that 15 to 25th, like depending on what happens at race, you could be in any one of those spots. Yeah, I think, I think what's most impressive, almost is to see the guys who are on the top consistently on the top.

I think just considering the variety and the diversity of races and how much can go wrong in a race. To see the same guys like floating to the top is really a Testament to. So maybe how they prepare, but also like their fitness off as well. And, I mean, that would be great to do, but at the same time, you know, just looking at it like, Oh man, if I could have one top finish, that'd be great.

Yeah. Right. what do you think that is? Like, as I think about this sometimes too, like that. How, how was it that it is the same couple of people who do get a lot of the attention and get a lot of the, the accolades? Like they still perform the best over and over? Like, what do you think that they're, do you think that they're doing anything?

Or how do you think that they've maintained that with, with the amount of depth and new talent that comes in every year? Yeah, it's honestly kind of perplexing to me. Obviously you have to grant them that they're probably in some ways just better. but obviously I don't like that answer. I'm like, I don't really either, because as you know, both, both of us, like, we definitely want to be at that level and you can't be thinking like that.

and I don't necessarily believe that's, that's the only reason, but I think, just. The fact that I guess they, they prepare, I don't, I don't really get it. And what I don't understand most, I think is how some of these athletes are at the top, at the beginning, middle and end of the season, how they can hold this peak.

For like four months. Cause it's like a couple weeks I'm gonna have done. It's like how, how is their base level of fitness better than my peak level of, yeah. That's I think that's the most perplexing part for me. Yeah. It's and I think that's something that kind of handcuffs me or has in the past, in terms of like trying to approach this, like, it is the same as any other.

Sport with like a three month season, you know, and like trying to figure out like the best way to maintain like a generalized fitness and then maybe have one big build to like really, really knock it out because it it's, it doesn't make sense. To train that way from a traditional insurance background, but it is mountain running like that.

Or do you kind of follow the same type of beats that you would in, in like a track running where it's like a base phase and then like a sharpening phase, whatever, and then like a taper kind of thing, or like his dad? Is it the same? Yeah, it would be pretty much the exact same as sort of a track background.

I mean the big race is usually happened in the fall, or late summer. And so typically you'd have like a spring build for a, for a peak maybe in like April may, even, which is usually like for us in Canada, like the Canadian downloading championships, then you'd have a. Couple of weeks off and then you kind of just build for September.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Have you found that challenging in terms of obstacle course racing? Like, do you, do you fight the idea of like trying to be in shape all the time? Or like how have you changed your training at all? Have you changed it much or like, what's that look like? Yeah, I think, Trying to try to do both at a high level.

It's very hard because with obstacle course racing, you do need a bit of upper body strength, which is completely useless for man running pretty much, like you want to be as light as possible. I, I definitely prefer having sort of the, all around fitness. It's, it's nice to have a bit of upper body strength just to do other stuff with as well.

so I think in the last few years, I've definitely leaned more towards obstacle course racing when that running. I kind of used Mt. Running as, as a tool to get fit for obstacle course racing. So just, just like the workouts in the gym, I do a mountain kind of provides sort of this, this character yet fit for the running aspect of obstacle course racing.

And, I feel like that's kind of worked for me pretty well. So how do you know when you're you're fit for OCR then? Cause like that's something I have a terrible time doing because how I know I'm fit is like, Oh, if I can run this pace for this long on flats, like I don't have a great Brommer for my fitness.

Before I actually perform for obstacle course racing. And I was like, sometimes I go in and I think it's going to go, well, it doesn't sometimes it's the opposite. You know, what have you found? What have you found, do you know when you're, when you're fit for not really. I mean, my barometer for if I'm fit for OCR is if I'm fit for, for running.

so if, if I feel like I'm in good running shape, I'm going to assume, I mean, the OCR shape, th the idea, at least for me, is, The running is kind of the primary tool. And then we use the, the weight training, the Ninja stuff, to work on sort of my. Grip and obstacle proficiencies as well as like just the strength with the carriers.

And I feel like all that is helpful, but it is all based around the rack for me at least. And I don't know if that's necessarily the best method, but that's the one I've been using at least. And I think that makes the most sense, especially where the sport is now, because. The proficiency of the obstacles or the caries.

They're not necessarily the things that are separating the, the podium finishers from the people who are getting 20th. It's, it's kind of turned back into a fitness competition, you know, in the beginning, you know, there's definitely like an element of grit or just like who was able, who was strong enough to handle some of the obstacles or who had good grip strength.

And now it's like, you don't need that good of grip strength. You don't really need to be that strong. So it's like, It's back to fitness. It seems like. So I think that is like the appropriate way to kind of go about it. So in, when you think about what is stopping you from becoming that like next level, getting to a podium at a world or national level, whatever it is, what do you think that is?

What do you think is holding, holding you back? Yeah, I, I think for me personally, I would say the number one thing I think that would help is being a faster owner. I think something, I think if someone was just getting into this sport and I was to judge them, whether or not they're going to do really well at all school course racing, the things I'd probably look for, like how good at pull-ups they are, how much they can deadlift and how quick they can run both on flat on upper mountain.

and if they can check all those boxes, I would probably say, they're gonna do really well. Hmm. So I think like for my metrics, it's, it's like try, try and run a faster 10 K next year. Hmm. For me personally, I, I, I feel like, to be at the top, you probably have to be running under 32. some guys, some guys are probably a bit slower than that, but, they compensate by either being like jacked, like Hunter and Ryan, or they have some other skills.

And so, Yeah. I, I think, for me, just trying to continue to work on that running economy of the running speed at the same time, obviously working on my obstacles skills. Yeah. And there's always something to be said about experience, you know, guys like Hunter Anakin tube and competing at a high level since the sport pretty much started to be.

Become competitive. They've done more races already than I've done that I will ever be able to accomplish. You know, like they're, they're just have so much more experience on what to do on the course. And that is definitely plays a part in this. And I think that is one of the reasons why some of the parents at the top can maintain it, or they just like, it's not all a fitness competition, like there's things.

And I make, I make mental errors. All of the time. I always screw up out there and I haven't, I find new ways to screw up because there's so many ways to screw up that I haven't learned all the ways that I can screw up yet. And I think like, I think Atkins knows all the ways, that little mistakes and sees what people can do.

And you can kind of like suss that out and not have to do that. But in your case, when you're talking about a faster 10 K, because I'm the opposite, right? Like I feel like I like the road stuff, the faster stuff, like. I don't necessarily need to do, I need to get faster at the mountain stuff or like the trail stuff.

so how would you kind of go about going after that 10 K like, what do you hope that that would accomplish in terms of the, the end result? Like, obviously you would want to do better, but like how do you think that would translate? Yeah, so I think with, with a lot of these races, at least for me personally, I think you have to be sub-threshold on the running.

You have to connect. You have to like, there's this line that if you go over this line and I've done it many times and obstacle course race, I get completely crushed. So I think having a general level of fitness, robotically that allows you to run with the top guys without redlining, the whole way kind of allows you to stay in control.

And so when you hit the obstacles, Rather than having to use the obstacles as a break, you can actually go harder on the obstacles to get through them. And then you get back to the rounding it a bit more of a break until you get to the next obstacle. So I think having that high level of running fitness allows you to push more on the obstacles while getting your heart rate settled down on the running sections.

Because for me personally, I don't know about you, but like if I hit a heavy carry. I'm usually crushed coming out of that. And I just can't, I can't get that kind of my running zoning again. and the same with like, I don't know, even, even like lots of obstacles, if I'm going into them with too high of a heart rate, I'm just going to get crushed to the, of themselves.

And then coming out of the obstacle, I'm just not going to be able to get back to where I was before. And, at least my thought is that, just having a higher level of base fitness will allow you to. Run faster with lower heart rate. So that's fine. I agree. Like the amount of perceived effort that you're putting in, and that's why I feel like there needs to be a, a like real progression or like fitness progression with your training.

It can't just be like constantly varied, like CrossFit doing wacky stuff, picking up a bucket, running around, doing pushups and like running and this and that. Like. Like, yeah. So we'll get you prepared for the race itself, but like that won't necessarily get you to your highest ability to do work where like, if you were to do like a 10 K progression or, you know, like a half marathon training kind of block, like your ability to do work will improve.

So that should make your perceived effort less when you're out on the course. So that's why, like, I am a big believer in like having those things in a training plan instead of a bitch, be like all doing. Burpee runs or whatever, but, so when you say like threshold stuff, like when you say sub threshold, is that like, just for semantics?

Because I mean, there's language that I just want me on the second page, right? Like, what is, what does threshold mean? Like in your terminology? So like below the lactic build up pretty much where we're at. I can flush everything out. pretty much like zone three running rather than like zone four running.

So like something you could do for like an hour, right? Like at least, yeah. At least an hour, probably even longer. Got it. So like something like a half marathon pace. Exactly. Yeah. Something comfortable, comfortable, but hard. Right? Like, I don't know.  cause you are such a talented runner. Do you like when you go into a race, do you find like the run at the start is really cozy and like where, where do you struggle?

It's almost like. 100% terrain based like I don't navigate well through like the woods or like through like Rocky downhills in particular, like climbs are, are fine, but it ends up being the terrain is where I will kind of lose rhythm. And that is where it's a struggle. And then I can't quite access the like running fitness that I've built because I'm so concerned because of my lack of skill.

So like, Navigate the terrain, you know, so that seems to be where I lose a lot of ground. And like a lot of times I'll finish the race and just be like, like I'll be tired later in the day, but I don't cross the finish line. Like. Just debt. Like I've never like kicked to the finish line to the point where it's like, this is everything I have, like how it feels at the end of a 5k, 10 K half marathon marathon, whatever it is, where it's like, I can not wait to finish.

It really is that it's more like, I can't wait to get off this course. That's how I feel. It's like, just give me the hell out of here. so that that's, that's where I have struggles. And when you do that, like, if you were to do some of this. Sub-threshold training. Will you do it on, can you get to that level on trails or will you want to do it on flat just to like, make sure that like you're at a zone where like, you know, you need to be, I think typically, yeah, you keep it on the flat, just because it's more consistent.

part of this mind train where it's like, you got a consistent Hill out. Or something where, where you can really keep the heart rate in that same zone. It's just easier to train on the flat. like I'll do most of my easy runs in the trails just to work on work on trail technique. the trails around here in scholarship and on the North shore are very technical.

if you want to learn technical running, Come out here. Come on out, come on out for a couple of weeks. I'll teach ya. Yeah. I'll crash with crush with you in the, in the British and American roommate.

Once the border is open up. yeah, that makes sense to me. Right? Like that's, that's basically how I kind of approach it as well and putting that into place. So just like tell us, like, I mean, you did, you've been a runner for forever and you said you're not, you didn't. Find a lot of success, I guess, on the track or I forget what phrasing you used, but like, what are some of your PRS, like what have you done?

Yeah. I think like my. Like my, my PR in the tank is like 30, two 30. and, so I mean, not, not terrible, but at the same time, like, I feel like there's a lot of room for improvement, whereas this back-to-back 16 fifteens. I think that that's like just right. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an easier way for people to sure.

Yeah. And a half marathon. I, my best is one 10, 15, so right around 70 minutes. And, again, a bit of room for improvement, but I think it's probably a slightly better time, than romantic with okay. Equivalent. But when was that? That was back in 2015, actually. So not, not that surprising. I was a year. I was, did the best ed Spartan, my tent, my half.

So yeah, actually I think it was set that same year, I believe. So. do you think that's where you need to be. I think that's at least where I need to be. Yeah. and I mean, admittedly, I'm like 10 pounds heavier now than it was back then. just with the weight I put on with the obstacle course, I really want to lose that.

So obviously I need to just be fitter now was that in order to run at the same time, but at the same time, I don't think that's a crazy stretch. So yeah, I think at least I. I don't think so either. And I think that is, yeah, it's just a matter of fitness. Right. And just as long as it's muscle, like you can train your muscle for endurance.

Right. It just takes that type of time. What, what, like what, how big are you? one 50. One 50. Yeah. And I mean, that's probably where you need to be. Right? Like, I don't see many people out there that's much smaller than that. No, I'm kidding. At least, like, I think he needed to be at least like around one 50, like maybe, maybe he'd done in the mid one forties, but just, to do the caries and like the, her cloister.

And I feel like I heard ways like, and that double, double sandbag. Yeah. You have a double sandbag, honestly, think I want to lose much in terms of weight. I think I'm pretty accurate right now. So, yeah. And like I said, just, just getting more fit, like yeah. I think woods is probably, maybe under one 50 and Kempson is probably under one 50.

But probably not much, probably one 45, 150, probably pretty close. Yeah. T I was like one 65 through OCR stars, which is like a good, this is probably like 10, 10 to 15 pounds more than like my like race weight in like college. Cool. What's your jeez, you ran 29, 36 mile. In pounds over your racing weight?

Yeah. Over my like runner waste and racing. I haven't been that weight since 2010 now. So it's been a while. So I've had a long time to train this type of fitness for that. I know. I like that makes me really happy. I'm like, you know what, because I've always been like, I need to be this type of weight. So just like focusing on the fitness and having that pay off, it's pretty cool.

So you can do it too. Yeah, hopefully. So what are some of the goals that you have with, with obstacle course racing? Like just in the scheme of things, when we think about what would make you feel satisfied. Yeah. I think long-term, I definitely like some podium finishes on the, on the biggest stages. like what, like feeling again, competitive in the races would be nice too.

So rather than getting like shut off the back early on, just at least like. Even if, you know, I ended up failing obstacles or something, just being in the mix at least would be, would be a nice feeling. but, but yeah, I think long-term, I mean, I feel like probably it's a goal with anyone who who's racing sport at a high level.

It's like podium finish at the world championships would be cool. and same with like, you know, the series championships, try and try and denim that podium. But, yeah, I mean, Nothing like too specific, really? I think just try and keep improving and see where that takes me, because that's what I want to do.

Yeah. Cause that is right. Like anyone who's at like our level is, well, I'm going to put us in the same level. We're we're kind of right there. I think we finished real close to each other at Tahoe. Tahoe. Didn't go well for you last year though, right? No, but like, but you had some top 10 finishes at. The U S national series races, as did I on the flatter courses.

So like, we're kind of like in that same, same realm and like yeah. Think of the same way it's like, yes. And where I want to be is on that podium. And I don't think it's a far stretch. I don't look at the people who are at the top as athletes who are like superhuman. Like if I went to a mountain race against like Kili and Jordan or something like that, like.

I can't do anything about that, but no, CR I'm, like, I don't feel this way about those people. So I think that that is a goal that is attainable and should be what we have in our minds. And, you know, that's kind of why we've been talking now is just like, how are we going to, how are we going to get ourselves there?

But like, why do you want to do that? You think like, when you think about like the reason that you want to accomplish those goals? Yeah, I think, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons. I think the fact. Is, I'm, I'm a super competitive person. So I mean, I, I see, I see these carrots and, I just want to chase them down because that it's something I can do.

I also liked the idea of being a professional athlete and I, in order to be a professional athlete in this sport, you have to be on that podium. Because you're not really making enough if you're not right. So I'd love to just do this full time. and I think to do that and you know, you have to be up there at that level.

So, yeah, I mean, I definitely driven, driven to do it, but, I think most of the drive. It doesn't necessarily extrinsic qualities, but it's just a, a fire within me that, you know, I'm gonna do the best I can do. And I have a vision of where I can be and I want to be there. So, and is that always kind of a thing because you've done well in the mountain running you've done well in the tower running, is this.

Is, this is OCR an extension of that, of just being like, okay, here I am, I'm in this now. And I think I can do well. And I need to find out w w what I'm going to do, or is there something specific with this, or like, this is so cool. I need to, I need to just like, go all in on this. I could honestly say that about now running and tolerating too.

I think both those sports are, are super cool. with, with darling, like when I was young and I wanted to be an architect. I got a degree in civil engineering, like buildings have always fascinated me. And so the tower running was just a cool extension of that. Oh, no way. You're just like nerding out, nerding out.

Almost like I go to the city. I'd be like, just looking up at these high buildings anyways. So I was like, geez, I'm going up there. Yeah, I think it was like, I'll just go grocery saying, it's, it's just, I it's just so diverse. It's so cool to be able to like, man, I grew up watching like American Ninja warrior, like coolest show ever.

I'm just like totally addicted that stuff. And so like right now I'm working at a Ninja gym in Squamish. It's that it's really cool actions. It's a big place, but, it's, it's provided a lot of opportunities to improve my, my Ninja skills, which I think really translates well to a lot of the obstacles and.

so, you know, that's just like one aspect of this spine. Like I can, you know, enhance my ninjas abilities. I can enhance my running abilities, my strength, abilities, like these are all of these different assets with which I really value and I can kind of bring them all and meshing together into this cool sport.

And, so yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm super stoked to do it. Yeah. And I can relate to that. I liked the idea. Whatever the competition is like, I'm going to be like, okay, I'm going to want to do as well as possible just because, but I just like the training, you know, it kind of sounds like the same thing. It's like these different elements and you get to train for these elements to improve on those.

And it's just like a little bit more interesting, a little more fun and like there's growth to be seen in a lot of different elements. And yeah. So you mentioned wanting to be full-time in obstacle course racing or athlete, whatever that is. Is that what you do full-time now is working at that end into gym.

Yeah. Yeah. So the Ninja gyms, my, my job right now and it, it compliments at this. Awesome. so, I work, work there as a coach, training going into the next Ninja warriors suite. it is just a fantastic place to train and I've learned so much about my own body, how my body moves through space, by working there, some of the other staff there are like professional parkour guys.

One of the guys has like beat a demo guy on American Ninja warrior before us. So he like knows the lay of the land. so just working with, with these guys has really provided a lot of that opportunity for me just to learn how to get through autos really quick. I'm really excited cause I I've, since I've had a chance to actually use it in the Spartan race yet.

So this past year I've, I've learned a ton about also. Court's proficiency, which I'm really excited about bringing to spar next year. And it'll be interesting. See, it's like if that ability to kind of move through space does help lower the fatigue of going through the obstacles, right? Like if, and if it isn't and if it's the same fitness, say you run out of whatever 33 minutes for a 10 K and that's you're finished, but you're able to get through those obstacles faster, or if it, or if it just makes you tired anyway, you still need to get better at running.

It'll be interesting to see, Yeah. Th that's people. So have you done like an Ninja? Do you do Ninja courses all the time then? Like where it is, like enjoy your style, just like a minute and a half or whatever, however long it is to get through things. Yeah. I did a soy one competition, just before COVID happened last year.

super fun. The same time, kinda like the Spartan world championships. Very eyeopening. I went in, like, I thought I'd do it right. I ended up doing all right. I finished second in my category, but, it's, it was very interesting to see how being really efficient through every obstacle was so key to finishing the course, because it's so more grip based and aspire nice that you can get like flashed up just like that.

And so really making sure you don't miss a ring, Making making the jumps count. Like you're really hitting that landing at this small stuff really adds up in, in Ninja warrior. And it's something that I don't think as like obstacle course races, we care about that much because I mean, yeah, you could miss a monkey bar and describe it again.

one, you know, it's not, it's not, it doesn't really make a difference. W what way you do it, but, in this Ninja stuff, it's like, You gotta be efficient. You gotta like move through that space really efficiently, because if you don't, you're not going to make it. Yeah. I can't imagine. I can't imagine.

Cause people say it to me sometimes. So who just don't really know who like, just know what Spartan races or tease whatever I post on Instagram. So you should do Ninja warrior. It's like, I need like. 10 minutes of running to recover from my hands and grip before I can do something else like that, that is just like a literal sprint.

Like I need a marathon when it comes to ops scores, not like a a hundred meter dash. So I can't imagine how, how, yeah. Like even just missing one ran and said, well, that's it. Cause I don't have the capacity to do any more than that. Yeah. and then does the, the races, like the OCR world champs, if you've done those before.

I did it back in 2017 was the one year I did it, I think blue mountain and blue mountain. Okay. I think I was there. I think I did that that year as well. I got crushed. I was murdered at that race. Both. Both of them, the three obstacles I never seen before. And like, it was, it was raining right for the 15 K in the morning.

Yeah, the three K I think, I don't think I even finished that race. I think that's the only race I've ever dropped out of. I like even the battle frog races where, you know, they got those crazy waves, I, I always got crushed on the bowel from rigs back in the days, but I'd spent two hours and eventually I get through it like this OCR.

Yeah. That's short course. And that was brutal. I've been, even that it'd be a fun one if, I mean, if we can get back in, if it happens this year, it'd be a fun one for you. What do you think of this year? I mean, we were talking a little bit before we started, like, what are you going to do? We're not sure.

You're in Canada. A lot of the races are in the States and you know, who knows what's going to happen in terms of opening borders or, I mean, the case numbers are. Bad right now, but the vaccines come in, so people are optimistic, I think. so say that the season is just going to happen. What are you, what are some of the goals you got this year?

I think I don't honestly I'm, Not super stoked about aspiring world champs being in Abu Dhabi. Yeah. Because two things, I don't lie like altitude, I don't do all that, but the two other things you don't do well at is running in sand. And then what was the second one? heat. Yeah. So unfortunately, yeah, those, those are two attributes with, which.

He definitely has. still, I don't know if I'd do that one or not. I think I'd see where my season's at. I think OCR world championships is definitely something this upcoming year I'm interested just because of all the proficiencies I've gained. I I'd be really try it. I think, if I was in good running shape and, my old school proficiency was where I wanted it to be, I could do pretty well on that one.

so that would probably be a gold mine. I know. Tough Mudder is bringing back the 24 hour, 10,000 guys Ferris. So, yeah, this might give it a go. We'll see if Atkins decides to do it, but, that could be a fun battle. Cause you do well in the ultra stuff as well. Right. Or you have had some good like 12 hour races.

Yeah. I've I haven't done any 12 hour ones, but I did a couple of eight hour, eight hour toughest matters. And those went pretty well for me on each one. I, I felt like I learned and I improved from as well. So, kind of wished they had the, I was still because that was just kind of my bread and butter distance, but, We're gonna to see how 12 goes now.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because they brought back those as well. Those are still, those are happening again. Are they bringing prize money back with those two or I'm not sure because they were paid, they paid out like good money that like, when you, when you, when you were doing, eight hour ones, that was what, 2018, then 2018.

Yeah. Did it take them forever to pay you? Oh, it took me like nine months to get yeah, yeah, yeah. They thought I was dead. I did like the toughest series. No, no tougher. Tougher was, it was like, they they're paying out like way too much money. It was like 500 for any event. And there would be like, nobody would show up to these events and they were paying out like 2,500 for like regional races and St thing.

Like nobody would really come out. So they paid me like in two different increments and it was like, At the end of the year, it was like one was in December and then one was in January. So I definitely had something to do with like the fiscal year. It's like, they just got themselves under water. And I was like, this is not a great idea, but I don't know that the Spartan Spartans running the show now.

So maybe they will, I haven't heard of that if they have money involved with it. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great if they brought that back, but it's kind of like the same thing with battlefield, right? Like, I mean, I, I got into a battlefield deer, they went bankrupt. the, the pricing, they had like crazy, like 3000 for first or like something like two and 15.

And it was, it was crazy. Cause they had like 30 or 40 races across the States. So I mean, that's a, that's a lot of money in addition, have it, it's a good way to lose a lot of money. It is a good way to lose all the money. Is that a good way for Atkins to gain a lot of money? Yeah. Right. That's what this with, with OCR, sometimes it just like when people complain about the money and OCR, I'm just like, You gotta be kidding me.

Like you can't make this money anywhere else. I, I like, it makes me I'm like know, like, we don't want them to take away this money. Like I can't make us a dime road running. Maybe I can make a hundred bucks here or there, but any real money to me, like I can't make 500 bucks at any road race, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Road running, especially, very competitive. yeah, it's crazy. I mean, obviously there's big money in the marathon if you're, if you're at that level, but, It's cool. That Spartan is, is sort of dishing out like they are though. And I a hundred percent agree. I think it's great that, you know, we can have any sort of financial assistance through them through pricing and, yeah, I hope they keep it up.

Totally. so just talk a little bit about, I mean, we're here, we're talking about torque, we're talking about the obstacle course racing collaboration. So what are some of the goals you have with this? Like what are you most excited about with toric, man? I'm, I'm excited to continue what we are doing during OCR says, just like.

Talking about trading and, you know, Jen good workouts it and then getting fit the next year. It was great. That was, that was really fun. Yeah. It was really fun just to have like people to kind of bounce things off of. And like I looked for, I wonder if everyone else we definitely had the best experience with it, you know, like having a group of people like doing the same stuff and being able to, to correspond that way.

but yeah, I think it's gonna be really fun, especially if people have like the same goals and the things we're going to be working on, for sure. Yeah, I think next year. Yeah. Like once we, once we have an established race schedule and we're all like overall training for whatever, like the Seattle race or whatever us series races, there are, it's like be on the same.

Yeah, exactly. Doing the same goals. And so we'll be doing the same training and I mean, it was just really fun, like talking to you guys about, You know how to get through the obstacles efficiently, how to train best for the obstacles. And like those weekly meetups, I think really, really helped all of us to step our game up.

Cause we had like four of the top 10, which I mean, yeah, pretty legit. Yeah. It seemed to work. I mean, everyone's a good athlete in their own. Right. But everyone came and helped with buy-in too. I think like we took it. Serious. We took a really, like, we went after the thing, every one of us did. So I think we would help push each other forward because we saw that everyone else cared a lot.

and I think that's, what's going to help during the regular season as well. Not that we, we wouldn't, I Def, but it is reaffirming, especially. When we're solo a lot when it's not a lot of obstacle course racers, at least in my world that it's like, am I right taking this too serious? Am I spending too much time doing this?

But like being around other athletes, like, like yourself and you know, like I said, Nick record, Mark Arnett, who, who are dead serious about this stuff. It just, it really helps. And it's like, well, maybe I need to be more serious. Build that up even more. Cool man. So you just last thing, you mentioned earlier that injuries have been a thing that have really kind of hindered some of the progress long-term what are you doing differently?

What do you been in terms of like training more smarts for events? Yeah, I think like when you become a runner and you don't think, like you think, okay, I've got a trade war, you know, I gotta, I gotta sleep more. I gotta eat better. You don't think I have to not get injured, but like training consistently, I think is like the biggest thing to becoming a better runner is being able to really put that consistent training and week after week, month after month.

And, when you get injured, it just derails everything. And you really have to go back to ground, you know, ground zero and start building all over again. which, which is tough and like psychologically too, like losing all that momentum and motivation. It's really tough. And so. Yeah for me, I, I really am putting the emphasis on not getting injured.

And, it, it's kinda funny because, last year I was like, okay, I'm getting a lot of stress fractures in my tibia. So I'm gonna wear some cushier shoes to, to prevent that from happening. I ended up rolling. My ankle really had an impact. Oh no,

it's so crazy. Create this ridiculous lever too. It's such a stack height. Yeah. And so I just went over really hard on it and my ankle has been the same stance. So now I'm wearing an ankle brace, but, I, I think object surface definitely helps, and build more into the training, being more aware of when you're sort of feeling well at, you know, aches and pains in your body.

but like rolling out often stretching. Seeing physio on a regular basis, all, all sort of components that really help. And so I'm just kind of bring that all together and not get injured. Is that what you would do in the past? Just maybe not listen to like those little signals that would pop up and just be like, this is especially with stress fractures.

There is like, this hurts a little bit, but not that bad. And then it hurts really bad. Yeah. I've had a number of stress fractures after the first stress fracture. I, I kept running for like, Three or four weeks I was in, I was in university at the time. I felt like I was invincible. I can run through this.

There's also pressure. And in no circumstances, at least I can speak for my coach. And it was hard to bring issues to him because he'd be like, well, you're being a pussy or are you actually hurt? It's like, I actually don't know. I'm not sure. So let me not be a pussy and then see what happens and then just actually hurt.

what would you feel like inside, outside of your leg of the, like your shin? Yeah. Yeah. Usually on the inside I'm low down. I mean, it just like a little ache pain. You're like, ah, just sore from the run and then you don't know, it kind of builds from there. So you got to, don't have to pay attention to those, but I think I run sort of, as you become a more advanced.

As a runner, you sort of figure out those, those little nuances with your own body. And you just have to be really aware of like where you're at in the moment. And I think a lot of people that maybe aren't necessarily right at the top probably don't utilize physio enough. And so Taj and I think those two tools are really useful and just making sure that, you know, you're staying on top of things.

Sometimes they can open your eyes up. It's like, Oh, you're. Or like, if they're going over and you can find a spot that is extra sore, extra tender, that you might not feel like that happens to me. Like on the outside of my calves, like up toward my knee, like I'll end up being. Incredibly sore there to the touch, but not why like I'm like running or it doesn't ever really manifest and in that actual spot, but it might manifest somewhere else that you actual pain.

So like, if I go to something like a massage and he goes over that, it's like, Oh, I am extremely sore there. Or like in my back, a lot of times that happens. So I agree. It's a good, it's a good tool just to have almost for like awareness. Totally. And the thing is the body is connected to it. It's not like, just because you have pain in your leg, the issue is actually coming from like literally could be coming from your head.

I mean, I've found like it's, it's really good just to have like a one over, over the entire body, just straight up everything up. And, usually that kicks everything back in mine. I've had this some crazy experiences with like different types of therapy at T I went to this practitioners like NKT, like neuro kinetic therapy.

And a lot of that is like the signals that are being sent and like how your body kind of protects itself. So like, if you had an injury, like you had like, Oh, you have like a scar or something like on your head's a good one. Like you hit your head, you cut it open. There's a scar there. It's like. If you think about that scar touch, that scar you'll become a weaker, like in your legs.

And this guy goes through his practice and he's like, think about like, He'll like touch something and then we'll be like, now apply pressure to my hand with your legs. And it changes in an instant based off of like the different signals that are being sent in different areas. So it's like these, these like injuries that happen.

And it, for me, it was like, I sprained my ankle when I was like 14 and I was getting really bad plantar fasciitis because of my body. Didn't trust myself to like supernate out properly. So, so my proper range of motion wasn't. Fully activating. So I had to like kind of train myself to do that. And it went away like in two days and I had it for like a month.

I had it for like a year, like, it was like, well, you're in your buddies protecting itself. So like, that's just like, like there's so much that we can learn. And there's so many things that can be that you can find out about yourself if you just take that time. So I agree with you. It's like just. Spend some time with people that know what they're doing so they can kind of open up your eyes to that.

Yeah. Body is a complicated place. That's for sure. Yeah. well, cool man. Well, we'll, we'll check back in. We'll do these periodically so that we know how your progress is coming along. I mean, it's such a strange time now that we're not quite sure, but when the goals start, start to be more concrete, we'll check back in and, and, we'll keep these things rolling along, man.

So where can people find you in terms of socials or if there's any, anywhere, the way to follow your progress? Yeah. I, I stay on the down the DL pretty, pretty hard, but you know, you post sometimes I think sometimes yes. my on Instagram, I'm vertical running, underscore a Canadian, a E H I do have a YouTube channel, Sean SW that you consider jobs and open and post some videos eventually on there too.

at the bit that you got the bear fight on there, right? I got, I got, one of the bear fights, not the cool one, but the other one. So, but it always like 1.2 million views or something. Right. It's I think it's coming up on three now. Yeah. Oh my God. Cause I saw you had a shit ton of followers when we was going to OSHA.

So I was like, huh. And I went and checked out and I saw that one was on there. I was like, Oh my God, this, I didn't watch it. But, so you got, you've been attacked by a bear twice now. Yeah, well, I mean the first one, I was an attack. A bear just jumped out at me that night GoPro. So I I'm, I'm really surprised I went as viral as it did.

I think maybe overreaction kind of created the around it. I was like, Oh shit. You know, like a very, very rock, Arctic reaction. but it was nothing compared to the other encounter with the bear rash. He got into a fight with it. So yes, this is something we didn't mention about Squamish. I think people think this is a thing.

No, I don't have to think about bear encounters often. So what do you, what do you, did you, did you do have training on how to deal with a bear and did it, did you use it or did it come back to that raw animalistic response like you had for the first time? Like what happened? Yeah. Well, I think I gotta start saying like black there's typically no problem with them.

I I've encountered many before. like I've been carrying a bunch this year. Usually when you see a black bear, it's doing its own thing. You know, you're doing your own thing. You just act in the same place at the same time at like, like the trails here too. They're quite popular. And so if you are running in Squamish, like I would not worry at all about animals.

Right. I don't see any sort of protection myself, at least in black bear country. If I was in grizzly bear country. Yeah. I be carrying like some days, so bear spray for sure. Where's that, is that like just more off the beaten path? Cause, or is it more North it's more North and so grizzly bears typically don't, don't have territory in Squamish, once in a while you'll see one coming in, but it's pretty rare.

And so. Typically, you don't have to worry about Grizzlies are in there anyways. Yeah. Going back to that bear encounter I had, I was, I was just like running, easy on a trail or something behind me, looked back. It was a bear walking up the trail towards me. I'm like, Oh shit. You know, obviously a bit shocked, but not like super scared or anything.

So I was like, all right, I'm just going to be line it into the Bush. Get out of its way. Cause it's obviously just adding up the trail. We're absolutely on the same path. So I started running into the Bush and then veers into the Bush behind me. And I'm like, this is not good. And like, is there there's distance between you two at the time it's still a distance.

I mean, we are talking to maybe like five to 10 meters. Not much distance on me. Yeah. So it was at that time, I kind of knew like, okay, something's going to happen here. So I rather than probably what I should've done is turned around, straight away and stood my ground. I kept running. and it kept gaining on me until it eventually, got right behind me and it's talking him up and swatted my back and ripped my shorts and my underwear.

Did you go down or were you up? It just ripped. It was still running at the time. So it was behind me and it kind of, and that's and then after that I turned around to face it, cause I was like, okay, well obviously now. You know, I can't keep running. I'm fighting this bear. Okay. You'll just throw those swings at me now.

It's going down. No, no, no. Shit's getting real. Yeah. Turned around then I, immediately tripped over a stick because we're like, just in like the woods. We're not even on the trail right now. We're just like randomly in the woods. Like couldn't pick a worse spot. He has Deborah ground. He has the upper hand in terms of terrain.

Yeah. So turn around trip on a stick, fall on my back. The bear actually jumps on top of me and like, Oh man. So, that is stick on the ground. And I swatted in the face, and, backs off, giving me enough time to get up. And, and so now we're like in this jealousy match where it's like coming at me and I'm backing away from it.

And, it's. It probably like went on for about 10 minutes. That felt like forever, but, it kept jumping on trees like this aggressive, like pass would jump on a tree as like a fake, a fake attack. And then I would throw a rock at it and they would back off for a second. And, eventually I got to, maybe it was able to get away from it, but, I mean, this went on for quite some time.

Like at one point, this bear was actually quite smart. It's realized that I was trying to get, you know, back into civilization on this trail. So it actually ran around me, in the woods to get on the other side of me. And so it forced me back into the woods. Whoa. I was like, ah, you're not doing that to the best.

So by this point and like me and the bear, like I felt like we had a pretty intimate connection going on. I knew the bear and the bear knew. And so I just have ran out the bear with a stick and it jumped back into the woods, allowed me to get by it. but I realized at some point that, you know, the bear, the bear was bluffing to some extent, like.

It wasn't like if it, if it wanted to really kill me, you know, it had its chance. like we were obviously in some sort of battle, but I didn't feel as threatened as I did at the beginning. It almost became like the norm. And so I just kind of did what I could to get away from it. And apart, like, when you think about it, I mean, it didn't take long for you to think about this.

I thought about it right away. Like, what do you think the bear was doing? Since you know him so well, what was like, like, do you think it was just trying to defend territory? Do you think it tried to scare you away and then like you didn't leave right away? You were just there or like, what do you think happened?

I think it was an adolescent bear and I think it was actually playing. Oh, you think he's playing it? I think it might be playing. Cause I don't know what else it could have been done. it's like obviously it was charging me, but. I don't know, maybe it was just, that's its way of playing. I have no idea, but I feel like it wasn't, it really wasn't didn't seem like it was defending anything.

it was just like, yeah. Something to do. And I think once I probably broke a couple of ribs and. Gave it a bloody nose. It probably Providence like, okay, this isn't fun anymore. I thought we were planned. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I guess like the same as humans, like middle-school kids, those are the ones that, you know, I don't want to mess with them.

There'll be like the, the meanest, like, you never know what they're going to do. Middle school bears don't know how to play that. Well with humans, what they're doing, and that is a crazy story, but one thing and the other one, the other, the YouTube one is just, you just saw one. Yeah, it just jumped out at me.

I mean, there's no contact made. It was just my reaction. I think that really got the views, but I'll take them. Got it. Do you worry about, yeah, you got to show a spark and be like, you see all these freaking views. Hey, pay me, invite me to the Spartan games. do you worry about bears now? Like, is it a worry or do you, is it different after that?

Was there a, was there a running life before that encounter and after that encounter or is it still kind of like, I can't worry about it. I think it would have be more traumatic if the event had unfolded in like 10 seconds. But since it like lasted for 10 minutes, I became almost like accustomed to it. I was almost able to go through the trauma while it was happening.

So, I mean, I'm, yeah, I've seen lots of medicines that I've had no problem with metal. So you like to have a greater understanding than, than most well, it's like, I feel like there's any sort of understand each other now. Yeah. I wonder there's a community of people who, who have been through this that you can speak with now, then you can talk about how well you understand bears with them because no one else knows.

No, you're in a, you're in a small community now. Yeah. well, cool man. We'll, we'll link to your, your IgE and YouTube, all that, and the show notes and everything, but yeah, man, I appreciate you taking the time. I'm super excited that you are part of this team, I think is going to be awesome. I mean, the athletes that we have and just how open everybody is and just how excited that, that it all is.

I think it's going to be a really fun season. Once it starts to play out, we have a, we have an awesome team and. It's great that year, you know, spearheading this and the time you're putting in is awesome. So I think we all really appreciate it. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. cool. So we will be back with another one shortly, but yeah, I'll press stop and we'll stay on here, but that'll be all.

So we're signing off. Yeah.