Understanding Social Violence and Anti-Social Violence

In real estate a profound understanding of both social violence and anti-social violence is imperative. Social violence, footed in interpersonal conflicts and disputes, can emerge unexpectedly during negotiations or interactions with clients, requiring deft de-escalation and conflict resolution skills. 

Conversely, anti-social violence, driven by predatory intent, demands a heightened sense of situational awareness and the ability to discern potential threats, especially when visiting unfamiliar properties or meeting new clients.

As realtors engage with a diverse array of clients and properties, the ability to differentiate between social conflicts and potentially dangerous situations is paramount.

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Transcript

Rob Andress (00:00):

This situation ended up with this female realtor being choked at the hands of her client inside of her own office. Hi and welcome to Realtor Safety and Self-defence with Rob and Beth. Hey Beth. How are you doing today?

Beth Andress (00:26):

Hey Rob. I'm doing great. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here talking about this wonderful topic today.

Rob Andress (00:33):

It's a big topic. It's a huge topic, and what we want to talk about today are the types of violence that the professional realtor faces in their job. Isn't that crazy? Everybody kind of thinks violence. What's that? That's violence. There's no difference in violence, but there really is.

Beth Andress (00:51):

People really think that violence is physically attacking somebody, beating people up. You think about all the bloody fights that you see in the movies and stuff, and that's what comes into people's minds I think, when we talk about violence. But that isn't always how things end up or how things start even.

Rob Andress (01:10):

No, it's not. But oftentimes, if people don't, are unable to identify the type of violence that they're facing and their reaction to it can oftentimes escalate things into that physical realm that can get really bad for people. And that's one of the things that we want to share today with you is so you have an understanding of what the types of violence are that you faced.

Beth Andress (01:40):

And we have met realtors that have faced both types of violence, either social violence or anti-social violence,

Rob Andress (01:51):

Big words, social violence. So let's take a look at what it is and maybe we can talk a little bit about where it comes from and let's give some examples actually of how it has impacted some of the real estate professionals that we've met. So social violence, I'm just going to give a quick explanation of what it is. Oftentimes we use the word social and we think about social media and all that kind of stuff, but what social violence is violence that happens in a situation where there's more than two people generally, but it can happen between two people as well. And we talk about road rage oftentimes because so many people have experienced what road rage is, right? You're going down the road, somebody slams their brakes on in front of you or cuts you off and the very first thing that you do is bleep you. And sometimes you'll put up the middle finger salute and you start screaming and yelling, and you know what? The guy behind you catches you given the salute to him in the mirror, and then he opens the door and all of a sudden our egos are all caught up in this. And that's social violence.

Beth Andress (03:15):

I think a really good way to simplify social violence is just good. People sometimes have a really, really bad day, and it doesn't mean that they're violent people in general, it's just that blow up just happens. And the statistic they used to talk about was the fact that one in 200 people are on the verge of that blow up any given day. And we know now from what society's been through for the last two years, restrictions, supports available in communities diminishing and that kind of thing. We know now that number one in 200 is probably a little bit closer to one in a hundred or even less. And that's just in society in general. The real estate profession faces probably one of the biggest professions that had an increase in social violent encounters through and after covid.

Rob Andress (04:26):

Yep, absolutely. And don't the neat thing, well, not the knee. It's actually kind of a twisted thing. We don't only see social violent interactions with members of the public. We see it happening with professionals and their clients. We see it happening with professionals and those who work at the real estate associations or boards that support them. And we also see social violent interactions happening between members themselves.

Beth Andress (05:02):

And that was one of the things that I found the most shocking was the board staff. We've been to a few boards and actually done individual seminars for the board staff on how to deescalate and manage that social violent encounter with the realtor that has an issue. So we have to count ourselves in that 100 people that can blow up at any given time, for sure.

Rob Andress (05:30):

Well, hey, we've all had a bad day and it can happen to all of us. But I think understanding one that of the largest portions of social violence is really our own ego. Our ego becomes offended, our ego becomes hurt. We feel that we have a right to defend. We have a right to spew stuff back at the individual who has said something that has hurt us. And I've oftentimes viewed social violence like this. It comes down to us being prepared to do whatever we need to do to the other person in order to prove we are right. And if you think about that for a second, that can get crazy, can't it?

Beth Andress (06:32):

I'm giggling a little bit here, Rob, because it reminds me of a lesson or something somebody taught me not too long ago is that you can either be right all of the time or you can be married.

(06:54):

And as my husband, I guess you understand how I manage that each and every day. But that just goes to show you. And I share sometimes that when we talk about ego and deescalating conflict, I never thought I was someone that had an ego. I just thought of ego as that person swaggering down the street talking louder than everybody reacting and requesting the most attention of anybody. That's what I thought of when I thought of ego. And then I really, as we learned a little bit more about this, I really had to check myself and understand a little bit more that you, you're, we all have ego and we just have to understand what triggers it sometimes and know that people just need to get things off their chest. You don't have to fight them on it. You just have to listen to them. You need to grab those stones that they're throwing at you and don't throw them back. Just let them collect in a pile at your feet. Because unless you react to it, it doesn't mean anything. It's just something somebody says. It's just something somebody thinks. And so much conflict can be put aside and deescalated in those social violence situations by simply not reacting.

Rob Andress (08:26):

And that's it. It's reacting. And you know, touched on something that I believe is so important in social silence because it oftentimes comes from things being said to us, or maybe we make a mistake and somebody becomes very reactive to that mistake. And we are hearing thoughts being shared with us. And one of the things that to me that is really important is you know, ask yourself what is a thought? And it's really nothing. It's just another person's thought and it only becomes something if I want to make something out of it. Absolutely. And with social violence, here's their saying, take the E out of it and let it go because it's oftentimes based on ego and our need to be right. But I think what I think maybe we down the road here need to take a real heavy deep look into social violence and maybe do a whole talk on deescalation because you were like awesome at that. You were freak, you're amazing at deescalation.

Beth Andress (09:42):

Keep the good stuff for a full episode. How's that? Yeah,

Rob Andress (09:45):

Absolutely. Okay. And how does social violence impact us? Well, one of the craziest things, we met a realtor in Burlington who had the unfortunate situation of having to explain to her client home seller why their sale fell apart and over the lack of understanding of deescalation and over the lack of understanding of what social violence is and where it comes from and how it affects us. And that thought is only a thought. This situation ended up with this female realtor being choked at the hands of her client inside of her own office in other social violence situations. We know of realtors who have beaten each other up. I mean, we came across one from Toronto, not that long ago, two women, and we saw the photo of one of them. She had a black eye and scratches all down her face. And this was over an offer presentation like that's social violence. And we often think, we don't ever give her any thought to it. And really the crazy part of it, we get into an argument or a disagreement about somebody and we press and press and press because we have to be right. But we never have any respect for what social violence is and how bad it can turn.

Beth Andress (11:15):

Absolutely.

Rob Andress (11:17):

And I want to touch on anti-social violence. And within the real estate industry, this really becomes an area where the industry and the members themselves are skewed in their understanding of it. I've read some safety suggestions and protocols put out by national associations and provincial associations, and some of these protocols or safety recommendations can actually expose the real estate professional to greater risk if they follow. So what is anti-social violence? Anti-social violence, we used to think that someone had to be psychopathic or suffer from sociopath in order to complete an anti-social violent act. And I don't believe that today. I believe that people are not maybe in the right frame of mind when they complete an antisocial violent act. It can come from drug addiction, it can come from people who become fantasized over, someone who meets someone who in their mind they become physically attracted to.

(12:37):

It can be one of those things where you know, have something, I don't have something I want it. And the antisocial violence can be broke down into two categories, the resource and the process predator. And we know today that the resource predator is the one who generally will target the male realtor robbing for jewelry vehicle money. Those kind of things mean in Western Ontario. There was a realtor who was taken out of an open house with a pistol and forced to remove all the money from his bank account and then his car was stolen. That's what a resource creditor is. They're coming after you for something you have.

Beth Andress (13:26):

And that's one of the things that is a reflection right now. The crime rates are rising and our society is changing. That gap between the haves and the have nots is really widening. And sometimes it's hard as real estate professionals to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who does not have money to feed their family this week or will look at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe we know that when I was younger, people used to smoke marijuana and that was just a terrible, horrible thing. Those were the druggies, those were the bad dudes. But now we're in a society where the drugs that people are addicted to very, very strongly addicted to are causing a lot of havoc. Things like fentanyl and meth, people will do just about anything to get that 15 bucks or sometimes five bucks for their next hit of whatever they need. And without, like we said, the resources, the societal resources to help those people manage. Everybody is in survival mode that deals with those things and they see that opportunity to obtain what it is that they need, whether it's your phone, your purse, or all the money in your bank account.

Rob Andress (14:59):

Yep, a hundred percent. So the process predator oftentimes, well, not oftentimes. I now know today that the real estate industry in general believes that crimes against the real estate professional are crimes of opportunity. And that is just not true. And I want to talk to you about the process predator for a moment. This is a highly motivated individual. He's a hunter, a printer. He selects his prey, he learns how to target and lure his prey. And then when he has the prey in an area that he has chosen at a time of his wish, then he attacks the process predator. Our industry doesn't understand how this works. When we first started in delving into our understanding of violence within the real estate industry, many people believed that an attack would happen on the first showing. And is that what happens, Beth? Is that what we've learned?

Beth Andress (16:18):

We, we've actually learned that those first showing attacks are rare,

Rob Andress (16:23):

Very rare.

Beth Andress (16:24):

And really what they use that for showing that first meeting for is to measure their risk against you. What risk do you bring to them? Because we know they don't want to get caught. They don't want to get identified, they don't want to get hurt. They want to choose somebody that they know they're going to win against. And they use that first meeting to gauge whether or not you are the proper person for them to choose.

Rob Andress (16:59):

And I'm going to, even with that, talk about this thing, this recommendation about meeting in public places or having them come to your office and get photo id. This is a risk for the real estate professional to do. We know members who have been attacked after being given photo id and what Beth has said to you, this is an opportunity for the prey, or sorry for the predator to meet the prey, to meet them in an area that is safe, that they can find out about you. They can measure the risk against you, that they give you a photo id, you see their license. Do you have a copy of it? Probably not. And we know of members who have been attacked after going through this process. And further down through our sessions, we're going to talk more about this. But what we know today is that the process predator goes through sessions with his victim. And oftentimes this will happen over 3, 4, 5, 6 different appointments. It can happen on listing appointments, it can also happen on showings as well. And it's something that our industry doesn't understand. And with members, what ends up happening with the professional realtor is they meet these people first showing first appointment goes by and they think, oh, I'm safe.

Beth Andress (18:36):

They think they've met a really nice persons,

Rob Andress (18:38):

There's not a problem here. Everything is good. And this again just reinforces the process predator's role because now he's building trust, he's building relationships.

Beth Andress (18:55):

And let's stop for a second and put something in here that is really, really important. You have to understand that niceness, people being nice to you, people looking nice, people seeming like a nice person. We use that word nice all the time. Please know, and please understand that niceness does not equal goodness. Just because somebody looks nice, just because they're nice to you doesn't mean that they don't have ulterior motives or that they're a nice person. And I remember the story that we heard recently about the homeowner who experienced a theft during a showing, and they contacted their realtor who contacted the showing realtor and the showing realtor said, absolutely not. My client would never, my client is this person. And they listed off all of their credentials. And I've been with this client all day and we've gone to all these homes and I took him in my car and everything was good. And there's absolutely no way this person with all of these credentials and such a nice person would've ever stolen something out of a home. And then a couple of hours later, after she had said that she had shared her vehicle with this person, a couple hours later she realized that her own wallet had been stolen out of her purse.

(20:24):

So just know that niceness is a strategy of human interaction. It is not something that we're born with. It's something that people use to get what they want. We've done it. We've all done it since we were little. If you're two years old and your mom said to you, share your toys and be nice to her and she'll be your friend, be nice to the kids and they'll play with you. And we learned that from the time we're young, all the way up to our adult lives when we are trying to get a promotion at work or whatever it is, we are nice when we want something. And predators do that too.

Rob Andress (21:10):

Absolutely. And one of the things too that we have found over the years is they move from realtor to realtor. So a process predator will reach out to a realtor and they'll have a conversation. And at some point the realtor understands that this is weird. It's odd. They hang up, they shut them down. Well, the process predator learns from that, and they move from realtor to realtor until they get their storyline down. They get their hook, they get their script ready, they deliver their script, and it works. They hook. And we're also finding too, through social media that some of these predators are using social media to contact realtors. And realtors are running off and meeting them without having any due diligence being done before. They're getting Facebook messages and they're running off and meeting and showings and getting sexually assaulted. And so it's a real issue.

(22:10):

It's a problem that's happening. And as you know professionals, we really need to understand that safety has to come from us. We have to take the time, use the tools, and Beth and I are going to give you all kinds of tools for your safety toolbox and start implementing those tools to ensure your own safety. And it's really easy for us to fall into that false belief that it's never going to happen to me. But we know that that's not true. It does happen. So Beth had said something a little bit earlier, and I just kind of want to re-highlight on it. You had mentioned three things that they don't want. They don't want to get caught, they don't want to get hurt, and they don't want to be identified. But there's three things that they want. And this really simplifies it. And if you understand what the three things that either a resource or process predator wants, you'll understand it.

(23:20):

They want your valuables, your body or your life, and it, it's that simple. And I know it's cold, but that's that simple. And we oftentimes don't give respect to the motivation and time that these people put into their planning and their hunt, the money that they spend on burner phones, the time that they spend on researching the professional realtor through social media, gathering information from them on their website. We even know of instances where realtors have stated that I saw him somewhere before I recognized him somewhere before after the attack. These people are motivated and they invest a great amount of time into their craft and to ensure that they can target, lure and be successful in what it is that they want when they select a professional realtor to make them a victim.

Beth Andress (24:25):

You know what? I have a great story for you about a predator measuring risk and victim selection. We have time for it. I'm just going to run with it. We met a realtor, she's retired and she had a story to tell us. So we spent a good 20 minutes with her understanding and listening to this story. And I share it because it's so important. And I thank her for sharing this story with us and allowing us to pay it forward. She was a realtor in the suburbs of Toronto in the early nineties. I'm going to say 90, 91, 92 ish. And she had listed the condo of a friend for sale and her friend really needed to sell this condo. So she was going to make sure that she sold it for her. But she got a showing request, a phone call from someone who wanted to see the condo that evening.

(25:24):

He wanted to see it immediately that night. And so she took the appointment. And when she had thought about it afterwards, she said it took her about an hour to come to the conclusion that something was just not right here. She was not comfortable with this showing right to the point where she didn't want to do it, but she knew her friend really wanted to sell the condo. So she called her friend and said, I am just going to tell you this is, there's something up here. I'm not comfortable. I want your permission and your blessing to cancel the showing. And the seller said, you know what? My son is in town and he's staying with me. He's, he's a big boy. He's six foot two. He's built like a lumberjack and he'll keep you safe. If something bad happens, I'm going to leave him here.

(26:11):

And you go ahead and do the showing. And the realtor was okay with that. She was five foot nothing, just a tiny little thing. And she refers to herself as a spitfire. So she was pretty feisty out there. And for her to be put out and not want to do a showing was unusual. She wasn't afraid of anything. But she got that vibe. Her intuition went off. So she agreed to do the showing with the sun in the home. And she showed up at the condo, met the prospective buyer and entered the condo. And when they went into the condo, the son of the home seller stepped out, apologized for being there. He's visiting from out of town. He didn't really have a vehicle or anywhere to go, and he was just going to sink into the background and he wouldn't bother them. And he was a big, big boy.

(27:06):

She said he was very intimidating and would've put anybody off. And the prospective buyer spent less than 30 seconds in the condo. She said he stepped in, looked in the kitchen, didn't even take his shoes off, looked in the kitchen, looked in the living room, said to her, I don't think this is the condo for me. Turned around and walked out almost before she could say goodbye or two words or anything to him. So she felt that she was right. And her listening to her intuition was the right thing to do because having somebody else in that condo had put off that buyer for some reason. And she shrugged it off, good for her and off she went. But she got something that most people that follow their intuition do not get. She got her Aha. I was right moment solid and concrete. Now this was, remember the early nineties where they used to have the newspapers in those red boxes on the streets in Toronto?

(28:06):

You put your back then, gosh, probably two quarters in and got your newspaper out. But they always stick the front of the paper in the front of the box. And she said she was walking down the street to her office. And there on the front page of the newspaper was her client. That client that had walked practically run out of the condo that day upon encountering a six foot two gentleman in the condo with her. And you may have already guessed who this is when I've said early nineties in one of the suburbs of Toronto, but looking back at her was the predator that she had met. And his name was Paul Bernardo. So if that is not a story about a following your intuition and not overriding your intuition, but be a predator measuring meeting you, measuring their risk against you, and understanding that I have chosen the wrong person on the wrong day, I'm out of here. I don't know what better story we have. So again, I thank her for sharing that story with us and letting me continually pay it forward to talk about the risks that we face. Because you know what a great example of a process, predator, being able to choose a victim and tell them where they want to meet them and at what time, right? The very first meeting you be here at this time. And that

Rob Andress (29:40):

Sends shivers down my back. But we, we've heard of those kind of things before, but you said something about intuition, right? And I really got to let everybody know we're the only species on the face of this planet that won't listen to our intuition.

(30:02):

And I think on that one, we kind of have to end it. Beth. And you know what? I'm going to ask you to leave us a rating if you could, and maybe if you wouldn't even mind sharing a link with another member just so they can hear a message. Beth, I want to thank you so much for giving some time here today. You bring so much value to this program and value to the members that you need in your work. And I want to thank you as well for listening to us. And please have a prosperous and safe day, and we look forward to catching up again in the real near future.