The Dark Side of Real Estate: “…and then he pulls me toward him…”

Everything about it just felt like another real estate meeting. Kim Wiley had met a prospective client at an open house. She eventually went to the man’s home for an evaluation meeting both his wife and his kids. No red flags.

Eventually they’d gone out looking at possible investment properties twice. The third time they were looking through a home and were in the basement. Kim bent over to look at the expiry date sticker on the furnace… “and then he pulls me toward him…” 

In this episode, how to recognize the hidden signs of danger, what you can do about them, and how to handle yourself afterward.

Guest: Kim Wiley

 Resources
Victim Services Directory (justice.gc.ca)
Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime | CRCVC | Survivor Centre
Sexual Assault Centres, Crisis Lines, And Support Services - Ending Violence Association of Canada (endingviolencecanada.org)

 Contact Us
Our website https://streetsafeselfdefence.com/
Send us an email
613-340-8002
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Transcript

Kim Wiley (00:00):

There wasn't a lot of online things happening then, but there was something where I was able to share it and his description and what happened to me. I had four or five other women come up to me with the exact same description of the guy. It seems like he was definitely going after a lot of us.

Rob Andress (00:34):

Welcome to Realtor Safety and Self-Defence with Rob and Beth. Today we have a really special guest and I have a little bit of a disclaimer that I want to read out to you prior to us getting started. The following discussion involves a real life situation. We've had no script or prepared statements prior to us going live with the podcast, and I just want to let you know that some of the conversation and the content may get emotional and the discussions there could be some expressions used as well that you may find upsetting. Beth, take us away, would you?

Beth Andress (01:13):

Well, good morning, and I am so happy to introduce a guest to you today. Her name is Kim, and I don't need to tell you. You will understand at the end of our podcast today how brave Kim is for being here with us and just how empowering her story is. And one of the reasons that I'm so happy to have Kim here with us today. We often hear feedback and comments and conversations with the people that are making the decisions on the education that they're providing to the members of their boards, the responsible people for bringing this to you. They don't think they have a problem in their area. We hear them say nothing like that has ever happened to anybody in our board. They say, we don't have that problem here. Those our big city problems. That doesn't happen to us. And we know Rob, that the reason for that is really the lack of reporting from the people that it happens to.

(02:27):

The victims of this violence have a real hesitation to share their stories. And I have to tell you, and especially to you, Kim, I understand that because I have an experience of my own that I haven't openly shared with everybody. But I can tell you that going through and giving the details of that experience to someone who had to proceed with that information, who had to digest those details and listen to my story, that is a little bit of a daunting experience. It's not the easiest thing to go through. And if I hadn't been helped through that and encouraged and supported through sharing those details with the proper people, I don't know if I would've at that time in my life, had the strength to do that myself. So I certainly understand why the facts about what's going on in the industry as a whole and within certain locations and boards, I understand why that isn't something that's well known. And I really would like to thank Kim for being here and helping us get that message out. So thank you again for being here, Kim.

Kim Wiley (03:52):

No problem. I'm glad to be here.

Rob Andress (03:54):

Kim, I want thank you as well. And I really need to tell you right now, you were one of the strongest and bravest women in this industry that I have ever met. And wow, from my heart, my heart, I need you to know that you will become a spokesman for this issue that's affecting our industry. And I know your story today is going to change the belief and understanding of what a process predator is and how a process predator operates. And I'm going to ask you to share your story once you're comfortable. So I'm going to turn it over to you.

Kim Wiley (04:42):

Sure. Yeah. Saying that I'm one of the strongest women, I would never even think that about me whatsoever. Mainly because it's, as much as I have a story to share, I was extremely lucky in the end. So for me to share, this is something that I think is important because we, most women have a story. There's not many that don't. Almost every single woman in my life that I know has some sort of story where they've been abused. I mean, it's a shame that not everyone wants to come out and share it, but we can definitely understand that there are so many people who just can't talk about it. And I get it. I'm very fortunate that I am very open to sharing it, and I think it's because I just want everyone to know that there's power in knowledge. And if we can share what we know, then people will understand that, that we're at risk and that realtors are vulnerable targets.

(05:52):

So what happened to me, I had met a gentleman during an open house. And open houses are usually meant for us to hopefully sell the home, but to meet new prospects. And if we meet new prospects, we're hoping that they're going to have us come to their house and maybe list their home or they're a buyer. So we're just trying to get more business and drum it up. Well, this gentleman had told me he was looking for an investment property, and he invited me back to his home after the open house to give him an evaluation of him, his home, as he was also thinking about selling it. So I went back to his place afterwards. Totally, totally. This is great. Everything's going to be amazing. This is like a dream come true, right? You don't hear this too often. And so I went back there and everything went fine.

(06:46):

His wife was home, I met her. It was great. We sat at their kitchen table, we talked about pricing their home, a whole bunch of stuff. If I recall correctly, I blocked a lot of this out. So I believe it was either his kids or his grandkids were there as well. So I met family and everything went really great. He could never drive himself to any of the showings after there. So the first time we went out, I went out with him. I picked him up, and we went to go look at some houses. No problem. Everything went great. Super friendly to me, informative, really gave me all of the keys that he was going to be definitely wanting to buy a home. There was no indications that he was not going to. Then we went out a second time, and the second time was even better.

(07:40):

We were getting along great, really great comradery. And then the third time we go out, we go to this home and we're up and down looking all around, and we're now in the basement and I am bending over looking at the furnace to see if we can see if it's a high efficiency and check out the state of it and everything. And as I'm bending over, he comes up behind me, he grabs my head by my hair and he just pulls me back sort of, and I lose my balance. And then he kind of grabs my balance, holds me up by reaching around and grabbing my butt and squeezing really hard and grabbing me.

(08:29):

And then he pulls me towards him. And as he pulls me towards him, I was luckily far enough away still at that moment just to be able to get him, and I kneed him right in the middle. He went down to the ground and I quickly got around him and ran up the stairs and ran outside. I was lucky I got away. He was like a predator. He knew what he was going to do to me. He had so much power over me because he was obviously in a state where he knew what he was going to do, and I had no idea. So no matter what I could have done, if I had had some sort of weapon with me, anything, there's nothing I could have gotten out at that time. I was so lucky that I was able to kick him. I was so lucky and that he went down.

(09:26):

If he hadn't gotten down the type of adrenaline that he'd probably have going through his system, I don't know if I could have fought that off. I have no idea. So I'm actually thankful that I didn't have any type of weapon with me. And I tried to scramble for that because I think if I had tried to get it and use it on him, the amount of adrenaline that he had in him compared to me being in a shock, he would've so easily had grabbed whatever I had on me and used it against me. I'm a hundred percent sure that would've happened. So I then ran outside. And the unfortunate thing, this is the thing that I beat myself up over every single day, is that I waited outside for him. And when he came back outside to see me, I looked at him and I just said, don't you ever touch me again.

(10:29):

You dare do that. And he apologized, and then he got in my car and I drove him home. And this is what messes me up the most of everything. I don't understand why I would drive him home. I don't understand. There's so many things, and we have talked about this, and shock is I know a big, big part of it, and very, very strange thoughts for me. Obviously this was over 10 years ago. Now, as I think about me driving him home, and I have all of those regrets of that, I also say I've been out with other people, men, couples that I have been with three times, gone out with them and showed them houses 3, 4, 5, 6 times. And no matter what happens, my defences still go down a hundred percent. They go down. And I don't know if my defences would never, would ever stay up and heightened to a point where I need to constantly be thinking about protecting myself. Because when you get comfortable with people, you just get comfortable. That's all there is to it. So learning how to constantly be in that mode is very hard. And trying to figure out why I drove him home is beyond me.

Rob Andress (11:47):

I want to talk about that. But first, if I can kind of bring you back to when you met this individual. You met his family, you met his wife, and you showed a number of different properties before your incident happened, the or previous viewings on properties that you had with this individual. Was he alone all the time?

Kim Wiley (12:14):

Yep. He never brought anybody with him,

Rob Andress (12:16):

Always by himself. Never brought anyone always. And reached out to you to drive him on every one of these showings?

Kim Wiley (12:25):

Yes. He always had an excuse that his wife needed the car.

Rob Andress (12:29):

So there was excuses brought into play. Next thing that I want to ask you about, did you experience an over niceness from this man? A goal to build trust in you?

Kim Wiley (12:46):

He was as sweet as pie to me. Yeah. Yeah. He offered gas money at one point,

Rob Andress (12:54):

Risk versus reward. That's really interesting because we hear about that often, Kim, where the predator will actually, through them trying to build niceness and trust within the realtor, they oftentimes will offer something. In your case, it was money for gas. So it's very normal. Now, on the day that your incident happened, you were in a home or was it a duplex, triple plex, single family. What were you in?

Kim Wiley (13:28):

 It was a single family home.

Rob Andress (13:31):

Was anyone else in the property?

Kim Wiley (13:32):

Yeah, actually, which is crazy. The homeowner was home upstairs when this happened.

Rob Andress (13:39):

The homeowner was in the property when this happened?

Kim Wiley (13:42):

Incredible. Incredible.

Rob Andress (13:45):

Who was the homeowner? Can I ask? I don't want their name, but can you give us a description of the homeowner?

Kim Wiley (13:53):

Yeah, she was a lady probably in her fifties, brown hair, skinny brown pants and a blouse on and wow, that you just said that. And I'm able to describe her. Why did I do that? How could I do that? The things that are edged in your memory.

Rob Andress (14:11):

Yeah, for sure. It's all locked in. It's all locked in. So there was a process here that you went through during the process in the showings, and I'm going to kind of get maybe a little bit specific with you if I can, and maybe you'll remember and maybe you won't. During the times up to the attack that you experienced, did you notice any behaviour change in this man, him trying to get closer to you, the normal during showings, him making soft, passive contact with you, trying to reassure you? Did you notice any of that?

Kim Wiley (14:55):

Yeah, I definitely noticed him getting a little close, him wanting to get a little closer. And I think I had even, I dunno if who I commented to, maybe somebody in my office. So yeah, I've got a client that might be crushing on me a little bit. I met his wife, but he could be crushing on me a touch. I just kind of felt that there was something there that he was behaving that way. Yeah, okay.

Rob Andress (15:25):

And that has nothing to do with you. And the crazy part about these incidences, when they happen, oftentimes the victim starts questioning what they did. Did I do something to invite this? What was my behaviour afterwards? Should I have done this or should I have done that? And one of the most important things that I personally want to share with you, and I'm sure Beth is going to talk about this as well, and it's a little bit cold, Kim, this incident had nothing to do with you. And that's the messed up thing about this. As victims, we have a tendency to try and self-blame and pull into us. I should have done this and I should have done that. And the predatorial mindset with this, you were groomed, he picked you, he selected you. There was probably a high chance that he had seen, knew or knew who you were prior to attending that open house.

(16:29):

And we hear from victim realtors, some of them will actually tell us that they recognize the face from somewhere before. And the process that you went through is very similar in our industry's understanding of this is so frigging skewed. They believe that this happens on the first appointment, that you'll go into an appointment and some guy will attack you. And it's interesting because I want to bring you back to you saying you saw him get closer to you. So what happens with this process that goes down first, you're picked, you're selected, you're met. Niceness is used as a tool of human strategy, I believe is the quote that Beth uses. Trust starts being built with the victim, and then a desensitization process starts to happen. And that desensitization process is him trying to get close to you because now he's trying to measure his own risk against you.

(17:38):

What is going to be your response? Are you a threat to me? And all of the time that this is happening, you are an amazing realtor and you're doing an amazing job and you're trying to fulfill the dreams of people that you meet and that you're working with. And this is the last thing in your mind that's happening. You have no idea that this is going down, but there's little red flags, right? We have heard within every incident that members go through is there's little oddities leading up to this. And I'm going to ask you, can you recall anything that was maybe a little different from what your normal client, buyer, client seller relationship would've been? Would it been him trying to get close to you? Was there physical contact in any passive manner, him touching your arm, touching your back body, brushing you, was there any of that?

Kim Wiley (18:45):

The biggest one is hugging me goodbye every time I dropped him off. Yeah,

Rob Andress (18:52):

Trust, passive physical contact.

Beth Andress (18:55):

And I think one of the things that the profession does this in this profession, you rely on building relationships with people in order to be trusted and move forward with someone who's making maybe the biggest purchase of their life. You're building relationships, you're spending time with them, you know that they're going to be a referral source for you in the future. And I think often in this profession, we accept forms of physical contact that may not be commonplace in other areas. I don't hug my bank teller at the end of a transaction. I don't hug my lawyer at the end of a lawyer's appointment. And I think it's all part of that relationship building where basically your paycheck depends on this person continuing to choose you to purchase their home. And that is something very common that we hear all the time is that the closeness, the physical contact and touching is something that is just accepted. Whether it makes us comfortable or extremely uncomfortable or whether we just brush it off as that's just the way it is.

Kim Wiley (20:25):

I thought he was just being really friendly and this is such a great client. Oh my gosh, he's given me a hug. This is just lovely. Although I know in hindsight, yeah, it was creepy. And that's in hindsight, right? But then I went back to the office afterwards and I told everybody at my office what had happened and it was mainly men and none of them told me to do anything about it, which is the unfortunate part. I wish somebody had said, Kim, you have to go and report this. Because then I also started sharing it with a lot. We had an online, something online back then. We were not very much online back then when this happened, I think I say 10 years, but I think it was even maybe 15 years I've been in real estate for 21. So I think you know what, it was three years after I got licensed. So we're talking 18 years ago actually. So there wasn't a lot of online things happening then, but there was something where I was able to share it and his description and what happened to me. And I had four or five other women come up to me with the exact same description of the guy. So it seems like he was definitely going after a lot of us.

Rob Andress (21:37):

And that's another thing that we know today, and we share that with real estate professionals, the importance of reporting and sharing the information. Because Beth and I know today that these individuals go from realtor to realtor to realtor to realtor. They're fucking hunters is what they are. And they pick their victims and they will move from one to the next to the next, next until they are successful at fulfilling this dominance and control need that they have. And Kim, you had a question. You said to me, you waited for him outside and you let him back in your car and you drove him back. And I want to tell you why.

(22:29):

And this has nothing to do with you. It's not your fault. And you really, really need to understand that you did nothing wrong. You were in a high service industry. You strive to fulfill every requirement and need and aspect and due diligence of your client. You want your client to be successful in their goals. And because we are in such a high drive service industry, when these things happen to you, one, it's a shock, but your response becomes immediately back to that service of looking after them. And right now and when, I'm sorry, I just got to say this, our industry has indoctrinated every professional across this country into believing that we have to deal with this bullshit and we have to deal with people violently interacting with us. And then we have this threat hanging over our head called in Ontario, the Real Estate Council of Ontario.

(23:54):

That threat and having reports and having to go through the process is a fear. It's a fear of ours when these incidents happen. And I know Kim, because I've had a social violent interaction happen to me inside of my own office. And it was spurred at the hands of another professional. And we call us ourselves, professionals and this industry, and it was spurred at the hands of another professional. And as I was going through that process, it came to mind, if I have to become physical with this individual, I have to deal with Rico. And we hear it from members that this is a fear, and your response to putting him back in your vehicle and making sure he was looked after is just a dedication to you and servicing your client. And it's a hard call to make.

Beth Andress (25:00):

Well, I'm going to add to that a little bit too, Rob, because I think what happens in that initial adrenaline dump after you've experienced an incident like that is that immediately your brain wonders, what did I do to cause this? Did I do something wrong? What am I going to do to fix this? And you almost go into a state of putting that aside, moving forward with what has to come next so that you can let that background thought come when you're ready for it, if that makes sense to you. And I think, Rob, I'll remind you of the lady that you went and worked with individually in Hamilton who had a terrible incident in a bathroom who completed the showing after she was assaulted because her brain was shutting down as to what had happened to her. And she simply had to move through the steps to finish what she had in front of her before she could process what she needed to do now. And I think that part of that adrenaline dump closes off that sensibility part of your brain that will allow you to immediately respond. Yeah, you had said that sometimes we look at it and we say, what did I do wrong? I was very fortunate that I knew I did nothing wrong.

Kim Wiley (26:43):

I knew I did. I am a hundred percent, I was ready to kill the guy, and it definitely not on me. But then that after effect of that first adrenaline dump, I love that term, Beth, because now that you say it, I'm like, that's exactly what it was. I got up outside, I got away from the situation. I was in the public eye outside, I was safe. And that was my first adrenaline dumps like, boom, okay, I'm safe. Now what do I do? I have to finish the transaction. You go back into the professional mode that I was then three years of being a realtor and just going professional mode immediately, what do I have to do? What's the next step? Well, this guy has to get home, but how do I get him home? He gets in my car. And I just kind of went through the process of it and wanting to still complete the transaction, the day transaction, not that it was a deal, but the actual transaction of what's supposed to happen here.

(27:43):

I think my brain went to an auto response of what needs to get done next. And I mean, to this day, I should have got my car and drove off and said, bye-bye. But I also had to secure the house, right? Did I have to secure the house? No, I did not have to. I had to get myself safe. Securing a home is like, what's going to happen to that home in the next hour? Nothing. The next day, if I hadn't have locked it up, nothing wouldn't have happened to that house. I mean, come on. But more damage could have been done to me going back to lock it up, driving him home. I mean, wow, the thought of making sure that everything goes right. And I don't know if that's a female thing, if we are just so nurturing and caring and empathetic. What wow, for me to think I had to actually stay there is crazy. It's crazy. We have to be taught, go get out of there, get home safe. That's what you guys say all the time. Absolutely.

Beth Andress (28:44):

Get home

Kim Wiley (28:45):

Safe, gtfo, listen to

Beth Andress (28:46):

Your intuition and gtfo if you have to. A hundred percent put yourself

Kim Wiley (28:51):

First. And if this can hit with anybody listening to this, anybody go, do not stay around. Do not look at that person ever again in your life. I mean, get out. Unless you're going into court. I wish today I had charged him and I cannot remember where he lives, and I cannot remember his name. It's totally gone from my brain. It's gone. I've tried to drive by the area, tried to find his house, and it's like my, it's gone.

Beth Andress (29:20):

I cannot find him. Hey guys, before we wrap up for today, there's one thing that I really want to touch on that's really important to me that Kim brought up today. And that was the fact that she did not have a weapon with her, and that she's thankful that she didn't have a weapon with her because the distraction of trying to access a weapon instead of simply being able to physically react is something that we stress all the time. People often carry things that they think they're going to use in self-defence in their pockets in the bottom of their purse. And it doesn't happen that way, does it? Kim, you really don't think I am going to go and grab that rock out of the bottom of my person and smash his face with it. It's just an instant. And we go back to that adrenaline thing. You don't have those fine motor skills to be able to accomplish those tasks,

Kim Wiley (30:22):

And you can't even think about it. There's just no time in the moment to think about it. And I mean, if you're up in the house and you get away and you lock yourself in a bathroom and then you have your purse with you still, if that would even happen, I usually leave my purse in the car actually, when I'm showing a house. I don't carry all my stuff with me. So even if you have your phone and you have an app, what is an app going to do to save you in that moment? You can call 9 1 1. That's great too. But they've got to get there.

Beth Andress (30:50):

Absolutely. In that meantime, and you certainly wouldn't have had time to call your brokerage and let the girl at the front desk know that you needed the red file. All of these safety protocols that the industry has been pushed to enact in that moment, when that adrenaline dump happens and that incident is there, that's not where your brain goes. Not at all. And that's not the time that you have to act.

Rob Andress (31:19):

Kim, in wrapping up, I want to thank you, but at the end of this, if you want to share anything with some leaders in our industry, within your association, your offices, wherever you might be, I'm going to, I'm certainly going to invite you to, and I want to thank you for sharing your story. And I know from our relationship that other victims in our industry, and I want to leave a message here for every director, every executive officer, every leader within the Canadian Real Estate Association, the Interior Real Estate Association, the Alberta Real Estate Association, Scotia Real Estate Association, just because you didn't hear from a woman or a man that they have been attacked at their job, please, please don't believe it doesn't happen in our industry because it does. Kim want to share anything with that?

Kim Wiley (32:30):

I would love to implore to every single real estate board all over Canada that they have. You guys come and just have a talk. I would love for it. I understand that we don't want to scare other realtors in this industry. I get it. But there's nothing wrong with teaching us, Hey, we are vulnerable. There is a chance something could happen, and here's how you can protect yourself. Here are the five best tips. And you guys come in and you teach them five, 10 amazing things, some self-defence, just so that we have that. I would love to see that be a mandatory thing that every single board brings in a sort of course that you guys have so many amazing things. It's just mandatory. And even if it's not an actual hands-on self-defence course, at least it's like a one hour teaching with you guys so that it doesn't necessarily have to scare us, but it agitates us so that we know.

(33:31):

Because when the next 20 to 25 year old woman or man comes into this industry that their blinders are off, that they understand, Hey, I don't even put a lockbox on a front door handle anymore because I don't want an agent on my own listing to have to bend over, turn her head, and get clobbered on the head when she's running down to open up a lockbox and then get shoved in the house, right? Yeah. All my lockbox are up high, they're somewhere else. And if my, gosh, if there's somewhere where I cannot put it, I will call where it's not where I really would like for it to be. I will call the agent and say, listen, this is where I've put it and this is why. And I will explain to them, make sure you don't turn your bag. And I will talk to them about it because I just want them to know, and I share my story with every single person I can because it's just so important. I was told not to share it just recently, and I couldn't believe that I was asked, not that I was muzzled, and it just tormented me that I was muzzled, and it's such a shame.

Beth Andress (34:46):

Hey, I just really want to thank Kim for sharing her story, and we look forward to hearing more from you in the future, Kim, because I understand you're going to be starting a podcast of your own. So please share that with us.

Kim Wiley (34:59):

Oh, now, okay. We're going to start talking about kind of the good, the bad, the ugly, the extreme stuff in real estate that happens, the fun stuff. I just want to look at real estate as much as we have this whole entire aspect of what we're talking about. There's some really funny things that happen in this industry as well.

Beth Andress (35:19):

We need to hear the lighter side too.

Kim Wiley (35:21):

To share. Yeah, the lighter side is great. So I want to start sharing all of the extremely ridiculous things that happen in our industry because the laughs are definitely abundant.

Rob Andress (35:37):

Yeah, book worthy, I bet. I want to thank you for joining us today, and I want to put a big thank you out to Kim for coming in and sharing our story, and Doug, our producer from Stories and Strategies. And with that, I want to make sure, please, that you have a very, very safe and prosperous day. And one final thing that I want to share, every real estate professional across this country, watch out for the red flags and the oddities because in every victim that we have met after this has happened, they realize that there was something odd or something different, either about the behaviour of the predator or the conversations they had leading up to their meeting. And with that, please, I'll be safe and have a wonderful, wonderful day. And Beth, you got something to say, so please share it.

Beth Andress (36:28):

Don't forget to give us a rating on this podcast today and share it out with you so much. We'll see you again.