Creepology

In this episode Rob and Beth discuss the issue of "creepers" or low-level sexual predators in the real estate industry.

They highlight the importance of setting boundaries and not tolerating inappropriate behaviour, even if it might risk losing a potential client. They recommend the book "Creepology: Self-Defence for Your Social Life" by Anna Baldassari as a resource for dealing with such situations and Rob and Beth  emphasize real estate professionals, regardless of gender, have the right to feel safe and comfortable in their work environment.

Link to AR Banks’ Creepology

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Transcript

Beth Andress (00:00):

You know what I feel like I want to just want to say that's one of those things where you say it louder for the people in the back.

Rob Andress (00:20):

Hey, welcome to Realtor Safety and Self-defence with Rob and Beth. Beth. I know you have been kind of chatting about something, and you know what, you've had my ear here over the last few days about this, so I'm going to let you share some thoughts and some feelings that you have right now and let's see where this carries us today.

Beth Andress (00:52):

Okay? I feel like you're giving me a little bit of an open mic here, Rob, and I'm really going to take it and run with it today. There are so many times that we have listed our favorite authors or that we've recommended books and things like that to our people in our sessions. And we all know who Gavin de Becker is. We all know who Joe Navarro is in the study of body language, but I'm telling you, I came across this book that everybody needs to have on their bookshelf. If you are male, female, identify as female, have female children, all of that stuff, this is one book that you really need to read and the name of the book. And this is going to tell you, Rob, what we're going to talk about today. The name of the book is creep-ology Self-defence for Your Social Life.

(01:50):

Now the author is Anna baldassari and I'm going to say that I believe this is a self-published book, and kudos to this author for getting all of this information out here because it is an absolutely inspiring book that is chockfull of information for us, and so much of it resonates with the real estate professional and how they have to conduct themselves through their career. So Rob, let me just read you the introduction, and again, we've talked about our favorite authors. The introduction to the book is written by Rory Miller, and I know you've read pretty much every book that he's read, but so I'm just going to grab

Rob Andress (02:38):

 Rory Miller is amazing, absolutely amazing. Yeah,

Beth Andress (02:42):

I'm going to grab you half of the introduction. And again, this is what we're talking about today. So he says one subject that instructors rarely address creepers. They are the low level sexual predators that make so many women's lives miserable, yet are invisible to most men. This is a real problem, not an imaginary one. It's not the active shooter or the stranger jumping out of the bushes, which most people will never experience. Creepers are a problem that someone is dealing with right now. He goes on to say that most instructors hand wave past the complex stuff. It's easy to teach what to do legally and physically when a stranger raises his hand against you, it is much harder to teach what you can do legally, physically, and socially about the guy who just happens to rub up against you when no one is watching. Now, those are the words of Rory Miller, and again, that is the foreword from this book, ology, Self-defence for Your Social Life by Anal Dari. So Rob, now that you've heard that part, this totally relates to a hundred percent of the real estate professionals that we have met, male, female, all gender that we have met during our in-person and online sessions, correct?

Rob Andress (04:30):

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Before we focus this 100% on the female realtor, you, because you've had them disclosed to you, this happens to male realtors as well, and it doesn't just happen to male realtors with a lone female client.

Beth Andress (04:58):

No, it does not. And you know what? I feel like I want to just want to say that's one of those things where you say it louder for the people in the back because this is not a problem that only female real estate professionals face.

Rob Andress (05:16):

No. And how Well, let's break it down because, and I'm going to step into our live training into know thy enemy, prospect or predator. We have a portion in our training where we will actually request a volunteer to come up and we go through, I don't want to use the word desensitization. I'm going to use the word measurement where we will display measurement risks that are performed against the professional. And when we do this, and this can be the arm rubbing, the smelling of the hair, the sliding of the hand across the back body brushing where the professional is near a counter and the individual rubs themself across their back or their front and then apologizes for it. And it's a whole frigging creep out. It really is.

Beth Andress (06:41):

We hear it, Rob. We hear about how conveniently they had to move themselves through a smaller space and unfortunately made contact, they stand just a little bit too close. They linger just a little bit too long after the business is kind of concluded. They give off those compliments that like, my goodness, your hair smells good today, man. Do you know how surprised I was when 50% of the heads in the room nodded? When we talk about that,

Rob Andress (07:20):

It's stunning,Isn't it?

Beth Andress (07:20):

That over personal comment, it's stunning of smelling your hair.

Rob Andress (07:26):

Or what about the male who gets told how good his pants look on him by a woman who he's conducting a showing with and her husband or partner is in another part of the house or another room, or vice versa where there's contact made with him, flirtation or flirtatious situation occurs. It happens.

Beth Andress (08:02):

It happens. It is. And we just finished talking about those meetings that happen that really give a predator a little bit of a lift and encourage them to either move forward with whatever their plan may be, or just the fact that being in your presence and actually holding your hand and shaking it for just a little bit too long, how a little too long, how they get their fill from that perhaps, but then

Rob Andress (08:34):

creepology.

Beth Andress (08:35):

Yeah, and we can't forget after that, what happens if they show up somewhere where you are, your next open house or

Rob Andress (08:46):

Well, we've met

Beth Andress (08:47):

All of a sudden

Rob Andress (08:48):

Professional that that's happened to as well.

Beth Andress (08:51):

All of a sudden they're on your Instagram, they're on your professional Facebook, and all of a sudden they want to be friends on your personal Facebook. It's that stuff where you can't put a finger on it as wrong, illegal, immoral behavior. It's just that stuff that it's unsettling behavior. And even though it's not an assault, this person is still a predator.

Rob Andress (09:27):

They're creeping you out, they're making you feel uncomfortable. Maybe they don't know. They're making you feel uncomfortable because in their mind, probably their ego's being boosted and full and they're thinking that this is okay. Yep.

Beth Andress (09:41):

Now, yes, and Rob, let's talk about real estate professionals and what they feel their obligation is.

Rob Andress (09:52):

Well, and here's some man, and this is a little bit of an unfortunate part of the industry because the professional feels oftentimes that they have to accept that behavior. They have to accept those compliments. They have to accept the late night phone calls. They have to accept the physical contact because the gifts, because they're afraid that they're going to offend a potential client and lose a substantial amount of money

Beth Andress (10:36):

Over it. And they've signed contracts, they have obligations to home sellers. They have obligations to their professional body. They have obligations to their buyers who've chosen them to represent them on the biggest purchase of their life sometimes. But Rob, nobody has the obligation to be a victim.

Rob Andress (11:04):

No, even from a low level predator like that. So if we can, let's kind of take a look at this and let's sort of understand, well, we kind of know what's happening here right now, right? The individuals getting a boost of their ego, their feeling, a certain level of dominance, some of this is actually a fulfillment from seeing the other individual being a little bit uncomfortable sometimes when an individual can create someone to be a little uncomfortable, make their cheeks go red, that kind of thing. That's a little bit of a fulfillment or an excitement for them. And you're right, the term creep ology is,

Beth Andress (11:55):

It's perfect for this. This author is a genius. I've read this book cover to cover twice, and I'm taking it to work with me and I'm going to leave it on the table for all of my friends. I'm just so impressed with the study and the knowledge and the action statements in this book.

Rob Andress (12:16):

So let's talk about this happening. You experienced this. What's your response? Do you respond the first time? Is it possible that this was a one incident sort of thing? Do you let the one incident go, which would probably be a reasonable thing? Because you know what? We get compliments and we accept them, and sometimes they don't make us feel good, but we get them. And one time thing could be right,

Beth Andress (12:53):

Could be, but understand what is going on. And if it raises a red flag for you, just let that red flag be raised. You don't need to immediately react. Because what I've learned from this book is that the sense of making you uncomfortable or inspiring, just that little bit of potential fear in you is often enough for these people. They don't turn into physical predators because being a creep is safe. It's safe for them and it's fulfilling for them. And guess what? They can do it tomorrow and they can do it the next day and the next day, and they get what they needed. Remember we say so often, it's not about you, it's about them. And in this case, when we deal with these creeps, they're getting what they need by simply making you feel that unsettling, that uncomfortable behavior. So let your red flags stay raised. But again, Rob, we don't have to accept this behavior continually. We have the right to remove ourselves from these situations regardless of the professional designations that we hold. And one of those being a licensed practice real estate,

Rob Andress (14:25):

Right? A hundred percent. And we don't have to accept it, but let's talk quickly maybe about a boundary, if you will. So we go through this experience, we have this happen once, and then maybe it happens again. And the second time, it even makes us feel even lower, creeped out, even more uncomfortable, possibly maybe a little bit unsafe, and it just doesn't feel good. So is it wrong to try and set a boundary for this?

Beth Andress (15:07):

You absolutely need to set your boundaries, but one of the things that we have to remember about boundaries is that people breach your boundaries or they break that boundary. There has to be consequences that we have to follow through with the ramifications or the consequences of breaching that boundary. So we cannot be afraid to release that client. We cannot be afraid to decline that next showing. We can't be afraid to refer that client to someone else. We can't be afraid to bring someone with us to the next appointment that we have with this creep. We have to follow through if we're going to set boundaries.

Rob Andress (15:53):

So how do we go about doing that? What's your thought? How do we go about setting a boundary with someone who is smelling our hair or telling us how good her hair smells, or telling us how good our perfume is, or telling us how good our pants look on us, or how do we go about that? Or man, how's this one reaching over and looking at an electrical panel and having a hand brushed down over your back? Or how do we set those boundaries in a professional way? Yeah.

Beth Andress (16:31):

Well, I think we're going to ask for a change in that behavior. People are not mind readers even creeps, and people that are not creeps, they're not mind readers. So we need to explain that that behavior is not acceptable. You ask, you tell, and then you deal with it. So setting that boundary though, you need permission to do that in this profession, unfortunately.

Rob Andress (17:12):

Well, and oftentimes, right? And we've talked about politeness. Oftentimes politeness is a problem we have talked

Beth Andress (17:19):

About and relationship building. And let's not forget that for these good people that are making the dreams of home ownership come true, their paycheck depends on these buyers. So quite often they overrule what they're feeling. They put their boundaries aside because their paycheck depends on this person. And how unfortunate is that, that we literally have to go through those unsettling moments and what feels like even harassment, Rob, we have to go through that just to make our paycheck. And that is unfortunate in this profession of intelligent, good, kind people

Rob Andress (18:12):

For sure. So let's take a look at it. You say about ask. So I experienced this and I say, you know what? I really appreciate the compliments, or I understand, or that people sometimes are touchy, but maybe that doesn't make me feel all that good. Sometimes when that happens, is that an okay approach to take?

Beth Andress (18:44):

Sure you have. Be clear about how you're feeling and what you don't want.

Rob Andress (18:51):

So if I ask and then I tell, and is it wrong for me to say, I go through that about telling them that I appreciate the compliments and I know you're trying to be nice, but sometimes that doesn't really make me feel that good. Would it be okay maybe if we didn't do that? Is that okay?

Beth Andress (19:17):

I think it's absolutely okay. It's not only, okay, it's necessary.

Rob Andress (19:22):

So now I've kind of set a boundary, haven't I? And I've done it in a way where I've remained calm and I've tried to be empathetic about it. I'm trying to understand that some people do this, some people do that. Some people have a need to touch. Some people have a need hug, and I get that. But if I don't feel good about it, I have the right to ask. And I also have the right to tell. And now that I set the boundary, what happens if that boundary gets breached? What do I do now?

Beth Andress (20:09):

Once you've asked and your boundary is breached, are you going to give them a second chance, Rob?

Rob Andress (20:17):

Well, I guess it comes down to what the level of the feeling is, right? And I guess what we need to understand, if I have requested this and I've shared how it's made me feel, and I've asked that we not do that anymore because it makes me feel uncomfortable and that boundary gets breached, what does that say about the individuals belief and thoughts about me?

Beth Andress (20:50):

Well, I think it would just tell someone that your words don't mean anything. That you can be overruled, that you don't possess. Maybe the strength that you, it's all about that risk measurement, right?

Rob Andress (21:11):

It's all about dominance and control.

Beth Andress (21:13):

100% is. So we're going to ask for a change in behavior. And when that doesn't happen, we are going to reiterate that request. We are going to tell them again, that behavior is not acceptable and what the consequences are going to be because we have to give consequences. Otherwise they're empty words. It's just an ask. So

Rob Andress (21:39):

That could be, you know what I asked? I told you how I felt about this. It's happened again. Maybe I should refer you out to someone else. I know, an amazing real estate professional that I'm sure would get along with you, fantastic. And probably be able to fulfill every one of your needs. I think maybe I would feel better reaching out and having them contact you.

Beth Andress (22:10):

And I'm even going to put myself in that situation, and I'm going to ask somebody, please don't smell my hair like that. That makes me uncomfortable. And then I'm going to say, when they smell my hair again, I'm going to say, if you smell my hair again, I'm going to have to refer you to Rob. He is my business partner. And he'll be the one that'll be conducting your showings with you. And then Rob, when he spells my hair again, he's yours. And then you can deal with them smelling your hair. But the point of

Rob Andress (22:47):

It is boundaries.

Beth Andress (22:48):

If there's no consequences to the actions and if there's no clear ask, then they're just words. So we do have to be firm, and we have to be confident in setting those boundaries and remember that it is a boundary,

Rob Andress (23:04):

And if you allow it to continue, that level of dominance and control elevates. And I know we're talking about, and we call them low level predators, but they're out there. And I hate to say it, but I am going to guess that there's probably 95% of our listeners have experienced it. I know over 50, 55% of our listeners have experienced the body brushing and the very uncomfortable measure risk measurements that are portrayed to them. But I think it's really important that the real estate professional understand that they can set that boundary. And let's put this into a reality context if we can. Would your lawyer put up with that? Would your physician put up with that? Would the hostess at a restaurant put up with that? Would your Uber driver put up with that?

Beth Andress (24:20):

Hey, and I'm going to end with then why are you putting up with it? And I am not going to give away any of Anna's book here to anybody, but I am going to tell you again, if you can please go on amazon.ca or amazon.com either and look up this book, creep Biology, Self-defence for Your Social Life. I recommend it highly for every real estate professional in this industry. And Edmonton people. We are talking about this next session, and I'm so pleased with some of the information that has been put out here for us to manage these types of situations. Thank you, Rob, for letting me take the mic today.

Rob Andress (25:07):

No. Hey, thank you. And I want to thank you for listening. And Beth, that was some powerful stuff because we know far too many professionals face it, deal with it, and they don't know how to deal with it. And you know what? If you enjoyed What you've heard today, please leave us a rating. Ratings are really important to us, and if you found the information valuable, please share it out. And I Want to thank you that for that because that is a topic that is a real tough one for professionals to understand, happen to deal with. And I want to thank Doug from Stories and Strategies, again for putting on such an awesome program for you. And you know what, in ending, please have a prosperous day and always be safe.