.png)
Primal Foundations Podcast
Welcome to the Primal Foundations Podcast! We will dive into what I believe are the 4 essential foundations you need to live a healthy lifestyle.
Strength , Nutrition , Movement , and Recovery.
Get ready to dive into discussions that will guide you on your transformative journey to unlocking your path to optimal health.
Don't miss out on the latest episodes – subscribe now to the Primal Foundations Podcast.
Primal Foundations Podcast
Episode 55: Beyond the Prescription - The Carnivore Diet with Ankur Verma
Dr. Ankur Verma, an emergency medicine specialist from New Delhi and host of The DESI EM Project podcast, shares his compelling journey from a carb-heavy Indian diet to embracing a carnivore lifestyle after facing severe metabolic health issues. By adopting a meat-based diet, he reversed his own metabolic syndrome and witnessed remarkable health improvements in others, including his uncle's reversal of 25 years of diabetes. Dr. Verma challenges conventional nutritional wisdom by emphasizing the importance of biomarkers like triglyceride-to-HDL ratio and homocysteine levels over traditional cholesterol metrics. Through his podcast, he delves into topics such as emergency medicine, nutrition, and the influence of pharmaceutical interests on medical education, advocating for a root-cause approach to health. Follow his insights on Instagram @thecarnivore.ep
Connect with Ankur:
PRIMAL FOUNDATIONS PODCAST-
Instagram: @Tony_PrimalFoundations
Website: Primalfoundations.com
The Strength Kollective:
Download Kettlebell Programs (Click Here)
Book a free 30 minutes consultation (Click Here)
Today's guest is Dr Ankar Verma. He's an emergency medical specialist based in New Delhi, india, known for his advocacy of the carnivore diet and his focus on metabolic health. He's the creator and host of the very successful podcast Desi EM Project Ankar. Welcome to the Pramo Foundation's podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Tony. Man, I'm so happy that we finally got to talk together after months of, you know, going back and forth with the timings.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, we've been going back and forth a little bit. You know we scheduled one day and I messed up the timings and I was like he's like, yeah, we're on, I'm like we're on right now, back and forth. But I appreciate your flexibility and finally making this happen and talk to off camera about all of your stuff. You've been doing your podcast and promoting the carnivore diet and I love talking about people's stories and all the messaging that you're putting out there. But for our listeners I kind of want to talk about your upbringing, because it's kind of a piece of it is your journey of the cultural background of New Delhi and like nutritional choices that are kind of associated with that culture and growing up in New Delhi.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I was. I was always a meat eater. I always enjoyed, you know, chicken, mutton and fish and all that. That's what my family also tells me. You know, when I was growing up growing up, you know, even at like two years or something when I would walk around I would start salivating. When there would be chicken or mutton or something made at home, I would go into the kitchen and you know I'll cluck like a chicken that I wanted to have some chicken. You know. Just make some hand movements, I want some fish. That's what I've heard. And uh, whenever we used to go for parties at families, especially my grandparents' place, you know they would have like a wonderful meat dish made specially just for me and there would be another dish made for the rest of the family. So that's how much I always loved meat.
Speaker 2:But you know, growing up not just in New Delhi or North India, you know, anywhere in India we love our carbohydrates and that was always there, you know. I mean, if you look at the breakfast choices all all across india, so in north india it's usually once it got westernized obviously there were cereals and sandwiches and stuff. But if you go more indian, there's like aloo parathas, which is like, well, you know these, uh, what should I say? Uh, potatoes stuffed in these sort of rotis, right? And then they cook that on pans with oils and ghee and stuff, and then there'll be something like chole patore and pav bhaji, which is all carbohydrates, like breads and a lot of chickpeas and potatoes. You go south, you have, you know, idlis and dosas and sambar vadas, all of that. It's all made of rice and other carbohydrates. You go to the west, you have something called poha and theplas and stuff, which is again all carbohydrate. And you go to the east, they have, you know, a few other dishes. So that's how the Indian breakfast starts off, right.
Speaker 2:And once people thought, so that's how the Indian breakfast starts off, right. And once people thought let's have something healthy, they'd get onto fruits, you know, for breakfast and think that that's a nice light dish to have early in the morning, not realizing that in like two or three hours they'll start eating more and, you know, want to have some more meals. So you know, through my years, obviously I was having all my meat and my eggs and everything, but obviously carbohydrate did happen. But I would have, I would have my big share of mutton or chicken, for sure, but then that would be accompanied with, you know, rice or rotis or naans. And you know, most of the time, most of the weeks, I would definitely have meat, like maybe five or six times a week.
Speaker 2:But then, if I have 21 meals in a week, five or six times a week, but then if I have 21 meals in a week, five or six times is not enough, especially when it's accompanied with all of these carbohydrates, right? So, uh, and then, obviously, junk food did happen, like you know, all the pizzas and the burgers and, uh, the chips and the nachos and soft drinks, everything through college, even through school, you know ice creams and everything. All of that, obviously, I mean I traveled around the world, I used to love the American Coca-Cola and the Frosties and all of that. So you know, I mean, when I used to go there, I would have tons of that.
Speaker 1:So you know, all of that happened through the years till one fine day I woke up happened through the years, uh, uh, till one fine day I woke up now growing up, like in america, we had the food pyramid. That was when I was growing up. That was a big thing. You know your breads, your rice, your carbohydrates for like that big chunk of that pyramid. And then we transitioned in america to the my plate, which is like basically half of it is going to be vegetables and the another quarter of it's going to be carbohydrates, other other complex carbohydrates or simple carbs, and then you're going to have, like this, one little sliver of any type of red meat or protein or whatever it may be. Growing up, was that something that was like in school. Was that kind of preached like this is how you eat, or you guys have something different?
Speaker 2:no, no, I don't think it was ever preached in school. I remember when I went to school we were allowed to carry our own meat. You know we had options for home lunch and school lunch. School lunch would always be vegetarian, but if you're getting home lunch, you could get whatever you want. That was back then. You know, more than 30 years back. Now, most of the schools allow only school lunches, which are all vegetarian, because there's a lot of uh propaganda behind that.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, I mean, growing up we didn't know much about the pyramids. Like I said, I I mean I came from a family that enjoyed eating meat. You know, uh, all it was with carbohydrates, but we, we never shunned meat. We knew that it's important for us and you know it's what gets us some nutrients, even if we did not know what nutrients properly. But then, growing up, that was not an issue.
Speaker 2:Only recently, I think, there has been more talk about the food plate, which has, you know, been advocated by the Indian Council of Medical Research, which is the exact same, like the plate in the UK or the food pyramid in the US. It's all taken from there. It's the same. I mean the food plate. You should have your cereals and grains and legumes and lentils, fruits, vegetables and if there's any little thing left, have some eggs or maybe some dairy and maybe a little bit of lean meat, specifically white meat.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean it's just copy-paste from other countries, right? And what the ICMR doesn't realize is this is what India eats. We've been eating that for years, the same plate, you know, and we're still very sick, right? So I mean they don't, and they always blame it only on westernization and that junk food came in and all that, but it's not. I mean, diabetes in India has been documented for centuries, right, since 600 BC. So, and you know, I mean there have been diseases before, just that it wasn't getting diagnosed, obviously because medical science was not that updated and was not that advanced at that time. But yeah, I mean, even if you have documentation of diabetes from 600 PC, you've got to think about it, yeah, why that was happening.
Speaker 1:And you know you're going through school. You got to make a career choice and you chose you know medical field. What made you get into that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting story. I mean, only one of my uncles was a cardiologist from my family, so that was the only doctor we had in the family and he was practicing in the UK, so obviously I didn't have too much of an influence from him, but I knew that he's there. And I think when I was in school, in class 9th or 10th, we were supposed to write an obituary for ourselves, you know, looking into the future. That was like a homework or something and that's like what, 27, 28 years back or something like that, and I wrote about a world famous neurosurgeon who dies and you know an Richard regarding that, and that was in, I think, class 9, and probably that planted a seed in my brain because from class 10 or 11 we're supposed to choose our streams and so I chose biology and medicine after that. That's what I can think of. I don't know why just that homework actually influenced me in some way to go ahead and try and become a doctor.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and here I am that's so cool because I'm a my my main profession is a physical education teacher in the states in chicago, and uh, it's cool. Like you always hear the one thing where a kid picks up something up in a class, in a project and that just kind of like piques their interest and they just run with it and it just becomes their own. You know, now you're going through medical school, you're getting all this training. You know, where? Where does this carnivore diet happen? Where? What makes you make this shift?
Speaker 2:yeah, this carnivore diet happened 15 years after I passed out, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I became a doctor in 2006. And in 2021, you know, with all the COVID and all going on I realized my triglycerides had hit 600, right, and my triglyceride to HDL ratio was 16. That's abysmal. I knew about metabolic syndrome, but not in the way I know about it now. But, yeah, I mean, I knew my triglycerides were high because of my carbohydrate intakes, right, and so I started to work on that. I immediately shut off all junk food and processed sugars. I actually removed a lot of dals and rotis and all that and I cut down my rice intake, but I was still doing rice. So, you know, sort of like a low carb, keto kind of a thing, I increased my meat. I actually avoided a little bit of red meat in the start, just, you know, just to see what happens. You know, and. But but then I started doing my research into nutrition because I figured that as a doctor, I didn't know much about nutrition, and and, and I knew none of my colleagues were going to guide me through nutrition, because no doctors are trained in nutrition, right, and obviously I was on instagram and and, and I saw I, I did my keto and and and low carb for about six months. I I lost a bunch of weight but I still had inflammation, and that I can definitely vouch for when I look at photographs back. It took me like about five months to lose like 22 or 23 kilos. You know, once I went low carb and I used to always exercise right, so it took me just five months or six months to lose 22, kilos.
Speaker 2:But then I started doing my you know due diligence. I started researching into nutrition. I started reading a lot, of lot more books. I went back into my biochemistry and physiology textbooks from like 25 years back and uh, I I came across so that that was like about a year and a half or something like that, till 2023 april, when somebody sent me paul saladino's reel when he was still a carnivore, and uh, and then it made a lot of sense to me, you know. And then I started doing more research into it. I started doing my. I mean, my podcast was already going on. I started getting more guests onto it. I read through all the papers that are there, you know, uh, thousands of them be it about lipids or nutrition or animal based foods, plant-based and uh, you know bioavailable nutrients, biodigestible nutrients, whatever there is. You know everything, the propaganda and everything, everything anthropology, uh.
Speaker 2:And obviously I was reading my textbooks again and you know it just made a lot of sense to me and I was like this is something that's not been done right by us and to us as doctors also, because I reversed a lot of things. You know, I reversed my metabolic syndrome, I reversed esophagitis, I reversed bladder control, libido, a lot of things you know and we get to realize these things once these symptoms also disappear. So a lot of things you know and we get to realize these things once these symptoms also disappear. You know my heartburn, gastritis, acidity, gerd symptoms, all of these absolutely it had become a norm for me to pop in an antacid after dinner every night, thinking, ok, fine, this is the course of life. You know that was. I was also put on some antihypertensives and statins in the first four or five months. Some antihypertensives and statins in the first four or five months once I had diagnosed myself with metabolic syndrome, but then I shut them off myself and my BP is absolutely fine. I'm okay with my cholesterol levels being high. You know, my triglycerides are now 90 and my TG2 ratio is about 0.901, something like that from 16. So so I went into full-blown carnival. I saw a lot of difference. I helped out my family, my uncle, my late uncle actually.
Speaker 2:He was a diabetic for 25 years and he was asked to go on to insulin last year January you know and for dialysis. He was diagnosed with a renal tumor at that time and that renal tumor was obviously because he had uncontrolled diabetes. And we had a discussion, told him okay, fine, give me two months, don't do insulin and dialysis, let's see. And he went full on carnivore and in two months his HBA once he came down from 7.5 to 4, his sugars were absolutely fine, his blood pressure was fine. His doctor actually wrote on his prescription, recovered from diabetes and hypertension and does not require any more medications. I got his doctor to write that Wow, this hadn't happened for 25 years because he was told to keep an HbA1c of 7, which is a good control, take his medications and cover it with carbohydrates. Obviously I mean he's no more, unfortunately, but he fought through it, even on Carnivore. And he started doing metabolic therapy for his cancer.
Speaker 2:The first pet actually showed, or the second pet actually showed reversal of some of the meds. And then he went to some other oncologists also who put him on some oral medications and all that. But yeah, I mean, besides that, a lot of other my of my friends and family went carnivore. They've reversed a lot of syndromes, you know infertility, non-alcoholic, fatty liver, pcos, hypertension, hypothyroidism. I'm actually reversing osteoporosis and rheumatoid arthritis in a couple of my patients. So yeah, I mean, carnivores really help. It is the way to go. It's basically what I feel is people are sick because of lack of essential nutrients bioavailable and biodigestible essential nutrients and overabundance of anti-nutrients. That's what a plant-based diet does to you. That's what the vegetarian diet, the standard Indian vegetarian diet, actually does to you. Right, you're having so much of carbohydrates and lectins and phytates and oxalates and phytoestrogens all of these, you know, and they're causing so much of harm. And I actually you know, opine, that exogenous carbohydrates should be an anti-nutrient, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and that's what I feel, and I'm seeing that in my patients every day. You know, people don't realize like we're. We're so prone to jumping onto the next pill or a shot or what it, whatever it is, uh, but just looking down back at what we're actually putting in our bodies is huge. And with that insulin piece, you know, uh, what is it? One in every four might even be higher. At this point, I think it might be like over half now of people are being diagnosed with type two diabetes, right, and just masking the problem, just say, hey, here's your pump, here's your insulin, continue to eat how you want to. Insulin is expensive. Everything is like really just pushed up on doctors and again, like you mentioned, like not a lot of doctors are trained in nutrition and again, doctors are doing the best that they can. But just I look back at you know some doctors that are like, hey, I'm doing all of this work, I'm prescribing insulin, statins, whatever, but yet my patients are still sick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely they are going to be. Yeah, for sure. So I spoke to a few people who worked in the pharma company my good friend from school, ekta, and Shashi Khan from India and, I think, selena, if I'm not wrong, and all of them have worked in pharmas with diabetes and statins and I had one question for them Did any of your board of directors actually say we need to cure these diseases, so we stop selling less medication? They're like no ways, no ways.
Speaker 1:It's a big machine. It's a big machine and I think doctors don't realize that.
Speaker 2:See, I mean, it's like you correctly mentioned, it's not their fault. But then you know, it's like you correctly mentioned, it's not their fault. But then you know, disillusionment actually leads to enlightenment. A wise man once said right, I know I've been disillusioned and I know that I've seen the matrix. Why? Because a lot of my patients not all my patients who come in have complications of metabolic syndromes or complications of the medications that they're on. But somebody has to ask the question what are we doing as doctors, even as me as an emergency physician? You know I'm going to save a life in that moment of time, right? So somebody comes in with a heart attack right, that's a complication of a metabolic syndrome. Right, you've come in with that. I save you at that time. Put you on some medications, get a stent, put. All of that happens Like 90% of the times.
Speaker 2:You're going to be a pure vegetarian who does not eat eggs or meat or anything, right? You discharge on medications as per guidelines, fair enough. But you are also told continue the food that you're eating. Well, you were actually eating that. Did a cardiologist speak to you? Why did you have this? Why did you have a heart attack? You're a non-smoker, you don't drink and you're a pure vegetarian. You were not supposed to have a heart attack. You're a non-smoker, you don't drink and you're a pure vegetarian. You were not supposed to have a heart attack. Your lipid profiles are normal, right, but it still happened, right. And nobody looks at the triglyceride to HG ratios. So I mean and we've actually opened up retrospective data, we're looking at the prospective data from my department, we've huge 50-bedded emergency. We get a lot of heart attack patients, a lot of strokes, a lot of cancers, diabetic ketoacidosis, ketoacidosis not ketosis, but ketoacidosis the ones that people actually fear and should, uh. So you know, uh, that's a diabetes complication again.
Speaker 2:And we're looking at what they eat. You know this is not just a food frequency questionnaire that we're doing. This is food preference, all right. So we're not asking you how many times a week to eat broccoli or spinach. We're asking you are you a vegetarian? Are you a vegan? Are you an omnivore? Are you a pescatarian? Are you an omnivore? If you're an omnivore or pescatarian, yes, we do some food frequencies. Then, in the sense, how frequently do you eat? And most of the times we get the same answer either on Sundays or on special occasions. So 65, 70% of the population is vegetarian.
Speaker 2:They're not getting essential nutrients and they're getting abundance of anti-nutrients. And I kid you not I don't know if you saw my latest content or not I mean, we're doing a prospective study on heart attack patients that are coming into my emergency. Every one of them had a high TG to HDL ratio Every one and they're micronutrient deficient. Almost about 75 or 80 percent of them had b12 deficiency and or barring three or four out of these 70 patients that I have collected till now, all of them have high homocysteine levels. It's like a direct uh, you know. It causes injuries to your arteries, it destroys your glycocalyx uh, it leads to coagulation of the blood, can cause thromboembolism and is known to cause cardiovascular diseases. Right, but nobody's looking at that. Because to reduce your homocysteine, you need to bring up your B12 levels naturally. You know I've got a few patients where they've taken supplements. Their B12 levels went into like thousands, but their homocysteine was still high and you need b12 to bring it down.
Speaker 2:Right, but the but the synthetic beetles not doing that. The natural ones are doing that. When you're eating the right foods, your homocysteines are settling down, but we're not looking at that. Why we're still putting you on statins. Why? But your cholesterol level was fine. You want to finish off your ldl, or I mean it used to be a hundred, now they say 70. One of my cardiologists actually told me okay, fine, so you've got a 15% plug, it's nothing, nothing to be worried about. But if your LDL is above 70, try and get below 50 by taking statins. I'm like, no ways, I'm not.
Speaker 1:You're all fired up. I love it. It's like when people see somebody that's overweight, they're like there's no way that they're nutrient deficient, there's no but, but they are, but they are and that, and people don't realize that. And also, like you said, hey, we save lives right then and there, in that moment, and even like hospital food. That's the thing is like we get, we get them. You know, you say people cardiac arrest, whatever it may be, and then they're gonna eat the same stuff. My dad I was my dad and my stepfather both had triple. One of them had a quadruple bypass. And then what he was eating and both of them were eating in the hospital to recover and the dietary like guidelines that they gave them for after they had their bypass. I was like oatmeal and orange juice really like that, yeah, yeah rubbish exactly, and that's a big thing too.
Speaker 1:So you talk about a lot of times like, hey, a good start is just no sugar or no juices yeah, yeah, so that's what I've done.
Speaker 2:In my own department. Anybody who orders coffee from the barista be it a doctor, a nurse or a patient or their family the guy from the barista knows that he can't get the coffee with sugars into my department, but with extra sugars, you know, and if somebody has a problem they're routed to me and that they get like a small nutrition 101 from me. I'm like no ways in my department you want to have some sugar. You go up to the person. You have sugar. It's not coming inside my department. It's not Even for the F&B, you know, for the patients who you know overcrowded in my department and then you know they're boarding in my ED for long periods of time. They need food, right. So they've been instructed very clearly no fruit juices for anyone. They're going to get served carbs anyways, like rice and lentils and stuff like that. But then the good thing is, if I have spoken to a few patients I'm like do you eat egg? They're like yeah, okay, fine, don't worry, I'll get you eggs Instead of the rice and lentils. We're going to tell the FNB serve them eggs, at least take that. And then obviously they get a little talk from me and you know, maybe plants a seed, you know. So I'm trying to plant as many seeds as possible. You know, maybe one of them will grow into a tree, but yeah, so the FNB is strict orders not to send any fruit juices.
Speaker 2:My patients are told by me not to give, not to get any fruit juices from anywhere, by me not to give, not to get any fruit juices from anywhere. So so that's a start hope. You know, hopefully it catches on people who know me when, if they get admitted into the hospital for something or or the other, their fnb is controlled by me so they get full-on carnivore. When, when they're admitted, people who are, who are known to me, you know. So the fnb and the dietitians know okay, fine, this patient is, uh, known to dr ronco. Okay, fine, we're supposed to serve only eggs, chicken and fish. You know, they don't get red meat. It's a little expensive for the hospital, but at least they get these three cooked in key or butter and I mean it's you're.
Speaker 1:You're a trailblazer right like has anybody in your hospital given you pushback, or are people across other departments like kind of starting to adopt this?
Speaker 2:So the first adoptions happened in my own department, at the head of my department. He went carnivore, he reversed his pre-diabetes and hypertension, all of that, and he's now a big advocate and and and propagates carnivore In his friends and families and even in my department and outside departments. And people have seen changes, right. I mean, I've been working in this hospital since the past 10 years, right. So all the specialties have seen my changes.
Speaker 2:They're bound to ask how did you lose so much of weight? What's happening? So I tell them and they're like, oh, I can't do this and that's your mindset, but do you know anything about nutrition? We actually do not, right. And then they get a little talk from me and I ask them a few questions about their own practices also, like, do you think this is healthy for our patients to be on like 15 medications when we know most of it can be reversed now, yeah, but you know, I mean they have their point of view too that it's all there in the guidelines. I mean, in today's world of litigations, you need one person to tell that patient brother, this is what the guideline is. Your doctor didn't give you these things. He's trying to kill you and you, you know you'll be served.
Speaker 1:Wow, and I mean you said, like people are looking at you because you had this big body transformation. You're saying 22 kilos like fit, almost 50 pounds, right for the people in America that don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's. It's amazing, you know, and getting people to start to realize this and and it's tough, and you know, I appreciate doctors like you because you are going against the grain and not everybody's going to be a part of that. But, and oh, this is what this medical book says, but the results speak for themselves. You know that's it's a huge thing, it's a big leap of faith for you and for other people's. You know, in your, you know hospital, around families, everything, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you know, nobody actually likes to mess with emergency physicians because we're mavericks, you know we go out with guns blazing, you know for our patients and we're like we're all for patient advocacy and all of that. So you know it's very difficult for them to counter us when we start asking questions. Usually we're just quiet and we do our jobs and you know we call you in. Okay, fine, this is a patient for you and all of that. We've done this, this, this, this, all of that. But they know if we start asking questions people will have to hide. So you know, not too many people actually try and question me about this Because, again, I mean they've seen the changes, they've seen all that. I mean I've asked my neurologists that.
Speaker 2:You know you guys don't do lipid profiles. Lipid profiles are not mandatory as per guidelines. They're not mandatory as per guidelines for heart attack patients or for strokes. Yet those guidelines ask you to prescribe statins to lower the cholesterol. What if a patient asks you what was my cholesterol level before you started off this medication? Was it high or was it low? Have you even checked before giving me a medication to lower something? You want to lower it, that's up to you. But have you documented the fact that it was high?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:I have no answer to that.
Speaker 1:Right, that leads me to this. Next, and this is the one thing I want to talk about too is one like specific biomarkers, kind of talked off arrows, like I love talking to somebody who's a doctor because you know, when people talk to me I'm like I can give you my story, I can give you a hundred other people's stories that it's changed their life to trying to go into a carnivore diet and adopting this. But cholesterol is always a big one, right. So kind of talk about you know what's high, what's not high, what is a good mark for that, and you mentioned some profiles, but what are some you know biomarkers that people should be really asking their doctors for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I believe. First of all of all for the for the lipid profile, since cholesterol is such a worrisome topic for a lot of people. Don't worry about your cholesterol levels. Your body's making it. Your body wants to make it right. Your brain's made of cholesterol. Your nerve sheets are made of cholesterol. Your thyroid, your bile, your testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, cortisol all of these are made of cholesterol. Right, your cell membranes are made of cholesterol. Mother's milk has so much of cholesterol and saturated fats and proteins, so you need that. You don't want to stop it.
Speaker 2:A lot of my vegetarians actually vegetarian patients have low cholesterol levels. Why? Because there's something called plant sterols, which actually can mimic cholesterol and provide a negative feedback mechanism and they reduce the little bit of absorption of saturated fats from your dietary intakes. So a lot of them actually have very low cholesterol levels. But what is important is that all of them have, like I mentioned before, high triglyceride and HDL ratios. So the HDL is low, the triglycerides are high and the ratios are high. That ratio should be less than 2, ideally less than 1.5, right? All my patients have more than 2, more than 4, more than 6, all of that. So if you're doing a lipid profile, check your triglyceride and HDL, and people still don't know about it because most of the labs won't market for you triglyceride to HDL ratio. You've got to calculate it yourself, so you do that. You can get your HbA1c fasting and post-trandial insulin levels, not sugar levels. You can get a random blood sugar, no problem, or fasting blood sugar. A lot of people have normal fasting blood sugar and normal A1C, but very high insulin levels means that you've become diabetic. I mean, there's just a little bit of time left for you to start having major symptoms, so you're basically developing insulin resistance. So that's an important test.
Speaker 2:I also go for the thyroid profile, not just the TSH, but the T3, t4, tsh and the antibodies right, the TPO and the TG, thyroglobulin and thyroxine peroxidase antibodies. So those are important because a lot of people have subclinical Hashimoto's thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune disorder. A lot of people have uh subclinical hashimoto's thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune disorder, uh a form of hypothyroidism. And a lot of the food items that we eat, uh especially how you oxalate high fetal phytoestrogens, the ones which disrupt our hormones uh you know, uh can, can cause this, can lead to this. Even you know fluoride toothpaste and any any other. Uh, you know, water with a lot of fluoride can actually block iodine uptake also, so that all of these can lead to this.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I get a full thyroid profile done, iron profile, b12, homocysteine, cortisol levels, vitamin d all of these are important. These are the ones that I usually focus on, and a little bit of liver functions. Yes, to diagnose fatty liver, but again, before the markers get deranged, I also ask my patients to get an abdominal MRI done to check out their visceral fat. And, you know, once I show that to them, it strikes them. There's so much fat inside which is, you know, choking their organs and they've all been directly associated with every damn disease that you can think of. So, yeah, that's one.
Speaker 2:I get some fibro scans of the liver done, if people really want to get it done, which will give you an indication of how much fatty liver do you have, and most of them are non-alcoholic fatty livers. Most of the liver transplants these days are happening to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, right, and people don't realize that. You know, even the radiologists. Most of them don't even report a grade one fatty liver, thinking that's all become normal. It's not. Grade one will go on to grade two and grade three and then lead to cirrhosis when it becomes irreversible, that's when you need the transplants. When you can stop it at grade one and reverse it, why not Do that? So yeah, so these are some of the basic profiles that I get done. I don't know if I might have messed up something, but I have a whole list that the patients get done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of the times I mean, I've went in I try to go to a checkup once a year, just blood work, whatever, and I got to ask for a lot of stuff. You know, I've got to ask for a lot of things and they're like, well, you know you don't need that, you're too young. And I'm like, oh, like, can you just, you know, I would like my, you know, a one C. I would like, uh, you know, I, I kind of want to get a CAC score pretty soon here and just try to like find these different things. Cause I was in a position where arguably the best shape I've ever been in, you know, endurance racing, and I was just kind of lean but I was doing it all carnivore and I felt amazing, I felt great and I went in just to get a checkup, blood work.
Speaker 1:Oh, like, your cholesterol is pretty high. I was like, okay, didn't ask me and I apologize for all the listeners that probably heard the story a bunch of times for me but didn't ask me about my nutrition, didn't ask me about, you know, my workout routine, didn't ask me about my lifestyle, just said we're going to get you on some statins. I'm like, uh, I'm, I'm okay, I'm good. They're like oh, okay, check this. Cool, and I could just tell they were going down the list. And then they're like do you want to take your flu shot today? It doesn't seem like you took one. I'm like I'm okay. They're like okay, all right, see you later. That was it. That was the whole conversation they had with me. It was like take statins, no, okay, all right, cross that off.
Speaker 2:All right. See, I think the curriculums need to change. Also, you can't blame all of them, you know, because that's what they've been taught, you know, I mean. But the only thing is, people do need to wake up, they need to question what they're doing, and that's how I teach my residents. Also, you know there was this really cool website called the Skeptic's Guide to Emergency Medicine, long time back. You know this physician from Canada, ken Mill. He had started that off. And you know this physician from Canada, ken Mill. He had started that off and you know, I mean, he would break down evidences in emergency medicine, what was coming out and all that you know, and how to be skeptical about everything. And you know he had this tagline always be skeptical of everything. Even if you've read it on this website.
Speaker 1:I think I mean that's how you learn.
Speaker 2:If you're skeptical, you know you inquisitive you. If you're skeptical, you know you inquisitive, you ask more questions and then if somebody else doesn't answer, you find the answers yourself. Why not? Even I tell people, even my patients, that you know I've done all the research that I could and I'm still doing that and I still follow it. And it's not just about reading one randomized controlled trial. That's not it. You know you need to read the biochemistries, the physiologies, the anthropology, the history, so many things, the metabolism and all of that and the diseases, and even prospective observational studies can be really powerful, because even case reports and anecdotes can be very powerful. Because that's where the question starts from why did this happen to me? Does it happen to somebody else? We're looking for it. You know you'll find something, or you'll find something that that matches, uh, the whole subset, right. So you know, but read, make your own inferences. You know we're putting out the, the information that we believe should be there for everybody.
Speaker 2:You know, because there's been a lot of propaganda, there's been a lot of myths, there's been a lot of dogmas regarding nutrition. You know, I mean popeye thinking or, you know, spreading the lies that spinach is the best food for iron, you know, and I used to believe that. I used to obviously believe that. Now I know that's. That's the the worst information you could give out, right? So it's been going on for so many decades. But I'd still tell my patients, my clients do your own research, Don't believe me blindly and then come out with your influences. If you want to believe me, then follow what I'm asking you. Give me at least six or seven months. See how you're doing and then it becomes a lifestyle. After that you don't need me. I'll be there for SOS, you know. I mean I'll be there, obviously. But you know, stick with the plan for like six months. See how you do. You'll see the differences.
Speaker 1:When you talked about the. You know be skeptical, right? You know question things. I was lucky enough to have Dr Ovedia. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dr Ovedia. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dr Ovedia. Yeah, he came on, we were chatting and one of the things that he we talked about is kind of like quotes or sayings, like in the medical profession is you know, half of the things that you learn in medical school will be proven wrong by the time you retire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean I tell that to my residents again. I mean not tell that to my residents again. I mean not just for that, but you know something like the most typical symptoms that you read in your textbook that this is the classic textbook presentation of probably a heart attack would be the least common symptom you'll see in real life. That'll be the rarest symptom. They'll come with vague symptoms and they'll end up with a heart attack. You know you end up diagnosing with a heart attack. So you know things like that. You know when you have textbook presentations they're actually the rarest. That's why they're called textbook presentations. They're not the most common ones.
Speaker 1:And when you spoke about the thyroid too, my mother had her thyroid removed years ago, years ago and I've just recently not recently, but over the few years, just she knows what I've been doing I've had my battles with weight and things like that and I've gotten to the point where I feel really great. My body composition is great. I had belferitis in my eyes. That was like crazy because I was vegan for a while. I've cured all those autoimmune things. It's been life-changing and wonderful.
Speaker 1:My mom is now just starting to have some hand issues and she's kind of carnivore, but not really. She's just eating more meat, which is a step in the right direction. But she's at the point right now where they don't know what's happening with her hands. It's been a little bit of an issue. So and they're talking about, like it could be, this autoimmune thing. I'm like my we gotta, I think we gotta go a little strict. I go, she goes.
Speaker 1:Tony, I was just going to tell you that I really want to go full blown carnivore. I'm like, let's try it out. What's the, what's the worst that happens if we're in the same spot as we are today, okay, so be it, but let's give 30, 45, 90 days and see what happens versus. You know, she's a fear of like losing the you know, the ability to move her hands and like, hey, let's give this a try, because the doctors are kind of baffled right now but yeah, that's awesome, man, that's, that's, that's like a rockstar move for people that listen to you, that want to, you know, put their their big toe in this carnivore pool.
Speaker 1:You know, how do you get people to start out like is it, hey, we need to go full-blown carnivore or what's some advice that people like? I'm thinking about this, I'm hearing all these things. I might have some of these issues that they're talking about. How do you get people to take the first steps?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I mean, first of all, I try and break as many myths as as possible. I first answer their own questions and, uh, with, with credible sources, and then I ask them to do the metabolic profiles and once I have that, you know, that picture is clear to them. You know, I let them know. Okay, find your B12 deficient and you've got high homocysteine levels. You're getting some non-alcoholic fatty liver, your TSH is a little on the higher side, so you're getting hypothyroid. Your cholesterol levels are low, so your cholesterol levels are low. Your thyroid is also going to get affected, right? So you know, your hormones are going up and down, your triglycerides are creeping up, your HDL is going down. All of that is there, right, and some of them obviously the people who actually do approach me are omnivores, right, I mean, they do enjoy the meat, but they don't eat enough and they eat a lot of other stuff along with it, right? So it's not that difficult for them to convert, except, you know, I mean, obviously, uh, some of them have issues like autoimmunity and all, and they usually think it's going to be a quick fix. It's going to be, like you know, in a week or 10 days. They must have heard some stories and you know, I mean, some people do have that uh kind of a response to carnivore where, like you know, in 10 days, two weeks, they they get relieved of most of the symptoms. But all my patients I tell them that don't expect the same thing to happen to everybody. It all depends on how much we've abused our own bodies. What all have we eaten? Some of them, if they've been like pure vegetarians. I've had only one or two. I've had two patients actually who've gone full-blown carnivore and they've never eaten meats before, which is fantastic, and they've never eaten meats before, you know, which is fantastic, and they're doing really well. One of them has rheumatoid arthritis and she hasn't had a flare-up in like months probably. The other one was vegetarian because of religious reasons and her husband is an omnivore and they settled in Goa and she's like you know, I want to start eating meat. And they settle and go and then she's like you know, I want to start eating meat. I was like wow, cause that I'm not going to say what religion she has, I don't want any backlash, but yeah, I mean, you know they're quite strict about vegetarianism, so I'm really happy and she's doing really well. You know. I mean she had a lot of IBS and gut issues and anxiety and, you know, skin issues and all of that, and and she knew that she would get flared up whenever she would eat foods which are the ones allowed in her religion, you know, and once she went full-on carnival. She's doing so much better, so I'm really happy.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, there's some people I ease into it. Uh, there's some people I'm like, you know, to go cold turkey and let's see, I mean there are some with fibromyalgia, you know they wake up with a lot of pains, they don't sleep properly, and these are the ones who actually see really quick reversal in like three or four days. I've got one who's like 170 kilos, that's like what 350 or 400 pounds or something like that. I've told him that you know, let's, you know you need to challenge yourself. I've taken up the challenge, we'll get you fixed up. So, yeah, he's lost about five or six kilos till now in like two months, which is okay, not bad, yeah, yeah, and his wife is helping him, supporting him and doing it along with him and she lost like a bunch of 15 kilos, yeah, yeah we in my experience and and again, there's always there's gonna be naysayers out there.
Speaker 1:But just from the people I've talked to and again me I was former vegetarian for a few years too I see this more, and this is just my personal perspective on this carnivore and staying versus. I have yet to hear again for me, somebody go that was like I'm carnivore and then didn't you know, didn't enjoy it, Didn't feel the results, Didn't you know? Just it was didn't work for them and they're like you know what? I'm going to go vegan. I haven't heard anybody that I've spoken to that are like, yeah, I was carnivore and you know what, Didn't agree with it, it I went back to vegan or I'm vegan. Now, off of that, I just see more vegans, more vegetarians, even the people in the keto space, low carb space, trying carnivore and absolutely loving it. So there, there is this shift and there's this grassroots movement with information going out there and just people trying it yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, uh, it's the same with me. I've not seen or heard of anybody who went from carnivore to vegan. But yeah, I've interviewed a lot of vegan turned carnivores and they've been on my podcast quite a few of them, you know there's James, there's Laura, I had a few others recently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it never works the other way around and you know, speaking of getting the message out there in the stories, the Desi EM project, right, that's one. Podcasting is a big overtaking. You know of just like a lot of different things and you've had like kind of the who's who of carnivore people on your podcast, right, how has that contributed to either your inner circle or people in India, Because you have a huge following?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like to believe that people have started following it quite a bit. So, I mean, I started this off in 2021. It was basically the Desi EM project stands for the Desi Emergency Medicine Project, and Desi is why Indians are called Desis in the US, right? So, yeah, that's why it was Desi EM project, and it was basically to bust a lot of myths and dogmas regarding emergency medicine. Like you know, when to come to the ED, when not to come to the emergency department, what is emergency medicine all about? You know some clinical stuff regarding some drugs that we use, like ketamine and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And then, once I realized that emergency medicine is so closely related to metabolic syndromes and metabolic health, I'm trying to amalgamate the two of them. Like I mentioned before, except for the trauma patients coming in unless and until they have known comorbid conditions, all my patients have complications of metabolic syndromes and metabolic dysfunctions. Or they're coming in with complications of the medications they're on for those same syndromes and metabolic dysfunctions, right, or they're coming in with complications of the medications they're on for those same syndromes and dysfunctions. And so emergency medicine has a big role to play in trying to dispel the myths and, you know, let people know what exactly the facts are. Why are you sick? Have that conversation? Because emergency medicine is known for patient advocacy. If a surgeon doesn't want to take a patient to the OR, we're the ones. Like you know, god damn it. This patient requires a surgery. Right now I'm shipping the patient to the OR. That way we're like that and then we can actually do this.
Speaker 2:I tell everybody that I've seen the matrix. It's time you guys see the matrix, especially in some of the conferences that I go to for emergency medicine. I'm like you know, we guys are doing a really good job of saving lives in that moment of time, like I mentioned before. But what about that? Are they actually getting saved? Are they actually surviving for long? We know we might not be there when they come back the second time. Why should they come back the second time? They shouldn't. So we're not doing our jobs. How many doctors can proudly say that my opity numbers have gone down because my patients don't need me anymore, because I've cured their syndromes and they do not require medications?
Speaker 1:no, zero yeah, you might add some years to their life. Right in the moment you save them. You're going to add some years to life. But we're going to talk about quality of years because you were asking earlier, like why are they on 15 different medications? Like what is your quality of life Ten years down the road if you don't change anything? You're just focused on I'm going to take these medications of that and be able to live quality life and be of service and of purpose. You know, versus how many people do we see that? You know can't walk, can't move um, all of these things and they can't contribute anymore to society because of health issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. That's what my my podcast is all about. I'm going to start off a website soon it's under construction, uh, uh which will have links to the podcast and, you know, some articles and stuff, and call the contact address or an email If people want to get in touch and get a carnival consultant. That's all of that's going to be on the website soon, so let's hope that starts off.
Speaker 1:I mentioned, you had the who's who and I like to anybody that's podcasting, I always ask this question of like, what's one episode or guest that you had on? That was like a life-changing moment. I've had a few where I've, like you know, asked questions and I got like these aha, you can name one or a few that have been on your podcast.
Speaker 2:That's like wow, oh yeah yeah, I had quite a few wow ones, you know. So, anthony chafee, I've had him twice. Both of them were brilliant. Uh, sally norton, you know the oxalate queen. Sean baker, the king of carnival, you know, uh, he was fantastic. And I had some really awesome. Uh, you know nuggets from sean amistle Fat he's so full of energy and he's a Whistle Fat expert. Zoe Harcombe, she was absolutely brilliant. Gary Fetke, from Australia I mean, he was sued for a long time and he came out of that.
Speaker 2:Dr Robert Kills, lisa Wiedemann these guys were amazing. I mean OBGYN and he's doing such a brilliant job. Lisa Wiedemann, these guys were amazing. I mean you know OBGYN and he's doing such a brilliant job. And Lisa Wiedemann is an ophthalmologist who's also a carnivore. She's been a long-term carnivore for like 15 years.
Speaker 2:And two really dynamic ones I love is Professor Bart Kay. He's like this powerhouse of knowledge. You know, he's been a professor for like 20 years and he's taught exercise, physiology, anatomy, cardiovascular pathologies and all of that. He's published a lot. And Eddie Gokey he's a young, dynamic guy. He's reversing Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome through Carnival and he's such a sharp mind I mean the way he speaks. He's already authored a book. Basically, he was doing a lot of research into biochemistry and metabolism and he wrote papers and when he looked at it he was like you know, this is a lot of material and he compiled it all into a book. It's called Contraindicated fantastic. So, yeah, I mean I've had, I mean it's been. So I learned a lot of the randall cycle from eddie. I mean he's like 20 years younger to me probably and he and he taught that to me and it was just fantastic. So, uh, a lot of uh, bright minds, a lot of others who've, you know, who've been through a lot of disease through their veganism or vegetarianism.
Speaker 2:Mimi morgan, she was one who was 71 years old. Reversing 14 syndromes at 71 years of age, including parkinson's syndrome, is something that which is mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing. Yeah, I, she had Dupuytren's contracture, rheumatoid arthritis, parkinson's, she had a stroke, she had MRSA. Her WBC counts had fallen down to almost zero, you know, because of all the antibiotics and the infections that she had had A lot of things, you know. And then she, at the age of 67, she started going carnival 67. And by 71, she was off all medications. I never seen anybody take the doses of medications that she had for parkinson's that high dollar, that higher dose and all came off, which is amazing. And she walks out, she lifts weight. Somebody who suffered from parkinson's lifts weights at the age of 71.
Speaker 1:Imagine that, yeah I'm a big, I'm big advocate of strength training. I think, again, it doesn't have to be oh, we got to put on 400 pounds or 200 kilos on the bar, but I think any type of resistance training and building muscle is one of the best things you can do, in tandem with a good nutrition background and making sure that you're really cutting the junk. And there's going to be people that don't agree with carnivore. There's going to be people that love carnivore. I think, at the end of the day, we need to get back to eating real food, right Stuff that's packaged, ultra processed, highly palatable. It's just not good for us and I think you know a lot of countries are now. Either they have bans or whatever.
Speaker 1:The States is starting, china, the United States is making a little bit of shift. It's slow, but I think they're just looking at like, wow, kids are sick, middle-aged people are sick, elderly are sick. It's like there has to be a we have to change. We have to change and nutrition is something to look at. Lifestyle is a big piece as well, but I just think everything you're doing is awesome, and I told you as well, like I love talking to doctors because I can speak till I'm blue in the face, but you know just the amount of research you've done and you know really how to go into those white papers too. Where I'm not, you know I've. I did in school, but I'm not as vast as some of you guys. Like you guys are just digging to the white papers and really pull out the information in tandem of speaking to people and getting stories. I love everything you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even about you know evidences and papers and all. It's not like everybody can read papers, but you know I've had the experience. I've published 42 papers, be it from case to post to case series, to randomized control studies, prospective studies, retrospective studies. So I know how to go through research. You know I can make my own inferences right. So you know, for those who think that I don't know how to read, you know I'll let you know that I do know how to read because I've published myself. And once you start publishing it's not that you know I go around publishing anything. Yes, I've had some case reports which got published, which I wasn't expecting to get published. Yeah, that was earlier on in my career. But you know I've published a lot of research. I published a lot of case series, prospective observation, observational studies, and once you're publishing, you know you actually read a lot of other papers.
Speaker 2:Know, and just my training, you know emergency medicine is the most evidence-based uh branch of medicine. You know we use a lot of evidence space uh for that. So you know we know how to get into that. But again, for nutrition, there's no good evidence which can prove causation and cause and effect for anything it can. Right, it's always got to be an association and a correlation. And then you correlate that with the biochemistry, the physiology and the metabolisms and metabolic functions and all the enzymatic processes and think, okay, fine, this is associated with this. This is what these things. You know this is how it goes through in your body, so this might be causing this. You know that's how you're. This is how it goes through in your body, so this might be causing this. You know that's how you're supposed to work it around. It's impossible to do a randomized control study which is well controlled to prove animal versus plant causing this or that.
Speaker 1:It's not possible yeah, and you spoke about um. You know the website's going to be taken off, things like that. What's in the future for you Any big engagements or other projects that are happening for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm working on my carnival consults. People do get in touch with me on my Instagram for that. Obviously, through my website, they'll get more information. That's something in the pipeline. I'm planning to do something like a retreat, a carnival retreat, in India, because I'm pretty sure that's something in the pipeline. I'm planning to do something like a retreat, a carnival retreat, in India, because I'm pretty sure that's not that's never been done here Still working out the logistics and the funding for that, how it's going to work out.
Speaker 2:So yeah, let's see. I mean I have a few friends who've actually, you know, chipped in with their gray matters, with ideas and stuff. But yeah, let's see how that works. So I'm taking it slow. Obviously, I'm trying to raise as much awareness as possible through my social media, even on LinkedIn. So I put a lot of my podcasts on LinkedIn because there's a whole professional network over there. So a lot of doctors are actually going through what I'm talking about, or what my guests are talking about, and I'm hoping that, you know it sparks a conversation somewhere. You know, because you know, as a doctor, I can't touch 1.4 billion people in India. Right, you need many touch points and that's required. So I mean, these are some of the plans that I have. Let's see how it works out.
Speaker 1:I think that's people are are now. They're going for experiences and talking to doctors too. I don't I have had melissa be on. She did like this carnivore conversations, uh whole thing in australia. As we're speaking right now, I know it's going to air after the fact everybody's at meat stock right now. Um, I, I wanted to go. I just can't go this weekend, but I said next year that I'm going to go. But I mean, a retreat in India would be super cool. That'd be awesome. Well, ankur, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time and I'm glad we finally got this locked down. What is a spot that you can be connected with, with people if they want to reach out?
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me, tony. Tony man, it was an absolute blast that I had. It was really awesome talking to you and if people want to connect with me, I'm most active on my instagram, uh, where I am the carnivoreep emergency physician, so the carnivoreep, you can dm me or follow me there. I mean mean I'll help you out. I have my carnival consults. Through that, people get in touch with me and hopefully the website comes up soon. It's going to be the tecemprojectcom, so once it's live, it's going to be on my Instagram and my other socials. I am on X, but not very active. Linkedin, you can find me as Dr Ankur Verma here, and Facebook here.
Speaker 1:I'll put that all in the show notes. We'll get those links in there and once again, thanks for coming on and thanks for everybody listening to another episode of the Primal Foundations podcast.