The Fearless Warrior Podcast

110: How Championship Teams Build Trust with Dr. Larry Widman

• Amanda Schaefer

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Today, I sit down with Dr. Larry Widman, Psychiatrist and High-Performance Mindset Coach, to unpack how trust, vulnerability, and role acceptance transform talented rosters into resilient teams. We also draw a clear line between mental health and mental performance.

Episode Highlights:

• Why trust is the cornerstone under pressure
• Mental health versus mental performance explained
• What coaches can notice and when to refer
• Reducing stigma through athlete stories
• Listen more, solve less as a coaching habit

Connect with Dr. Widman:

Website: https://www.maxoutmindset.com/

IG: @max_out_mindset

X: @Doc_elitemind

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SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the Fearless Warrior Podcast, a place for athletes, coaches, and parents who know the value of a strong mindset. I'm your host, Coach A B, a mental performance coach on a mission, former softball coach, wife, and mom of three. Each episode, we will dive deep into all things mental performance, mindset tools, and how to rewire the brain for success. So if your goal is to gain the mental edge and learn the secrets of mental performance, you're in the right place. Let's tune in to today's episode.

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Dr.

SPEAKER_02:

Larry Whitman has over 25 years of experience as a psychiatrist and nearly 20 years as a high-performance mindset coach. He works as CEOs, corporations, professional athletes, military leaders, Olympians, and multiple NCAA and high school teams. His mindset training has been integral in achieving 12 national championships across the professional, college, and high school club levels, along with nearly 30 high school state championships. When we collaborate with teams, we also work relentlessly on culture and chemistry to help build ultimate trust, the foundation of high-performing teams. Doc has been an amazing mentor of mine, and I'm so excited to bring him on the podcast live. So, Doc, love to have you. Welcome to the Fearless Warrior Pod.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks for having me. This is exciting. We've, like you said, collaborated for a long time, but haven't done anything uh um in a podcast format before.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, as I said before we hit record, I'm gonna grill you. I think you just have such a wealth of knowledge and just hearing you speak. I know you came and spoke at the retreat for our girls in the past. You've done workshops for our fearless warriors. And so just give us a, hey, where's Doc in the world? I know you're working with teams. Tell us a brief overview of like where you at, what you're working on. I know before we hit record, you were also talking about the convergence of your fall. So give us a who's Doc and what's he up to?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, you know, part of my world for the last 30 years has been a practicing psychiatrist. I've retired from that space in the last month or so. And so that's really exciting. Um, and um, you know, really devoting most of my time and energy to uh max out mindset with my partners, Coach Jess and Scott and and Emily. And um, you know, we were just talking about the convergence. October is just this interesting time because, you know, my biggest space is in in volleyball, and then my second biggest space is softball. And so, you know, October is the convergence of the end of softball, right in the middle and near the end of high school volleyball, middle of college volleyball, you know, and because I dabble in some other sports that I love like football and and golf and basketball and just the variety of sports that are out there today, it's all happens in October. So it's uh it's been a busy time, it's an exciting time. And, you know, the last seven or eight years, I spent way more time in the high school space or rather than just the college uh space. And um, I love the high school space more and more and more and more because you know, I think like you, we both believe that this is a an opportunity to really teach young women and men, but mostly women for me, you know, between those ages of 14, 15, and 21, 22, um, to empower them and to, I think within reason, no, they can accomplish anything they want in this world. And probably just as important to me, if not more, that by the time they get to that time period, they know with certainty how they want to be treated by others and won't settle for anything less. And I think that's a really important time period for people to grow and learn and become comfortable in their space. And so while you and I both love to see team wins championships and, you know, do well individually and get their college scholarships or whatever they want to accomplish, it's it's really more about the growth of the human being for me and their mental health and well-being and their self-confidence that matters the most to me. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. I'm happy to take a deeper dive into those spaces and talk about what we do with teams. But uh yeah, that's that's the space I live in. It's a great space, like you.

SPEAKER_02:

And I love that so much of all the conversations that we've had of we're doing so much more beyond the court, beyond the chalk lines. And I just selfishly have a question for you of what do you see as the difference between men versus women of you know, the confidence piece of you know, men have to perform well to be confident versus women have to feel confident to perform well. What it talk about that difference psychologically of like what have you seen in the two different sides of the coin?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know, it's not quite as black and white as it appears, right? I think there's, you know, I think men and women in sports uh struggle with the same things and pretty similarly, sometimes it comes out differently. Um, you know, I think self-talk stinks in both of them. I think it's a little bit worse in women than men overall, but I think anytime we say that, like, wow, that's something that female athletes struggle with, I'm like male athletes struggle with that significantly as well. Um, I think in general, women are much more open to talking about it and um in in an individual and then also in a group team space. And I think the guys, you know, are trying to decide what I should say and how should I say it, and what will my teammates think, and will I not be as cool? Am I willing to be as vulnerable? So I think the women are much quicker to be vulnerable. Um, but um I've been amazed by the male teams, for example, and then more and more now as you educate them that feel that love and connection is key to a great team, for example. So I think they converge way more. Um, I think the women are quicker to share their feelings and not worry so much what a teammate thinks when it's an emotion. Um, and the men are looking around a little bit more to decide how much should I reveal about my emotions to my group of guys who might snicker at me or laugh or call me soft. And so um, but there's definitely differences between the two in terms of how they like to be communicated to by their coaches and and the tone and um you know the way people talk to you and if they're hovering over you, and um that are different in women versus men. And and we gotta, and I always tell coaches you got to get good at it. If you want your athletes to be confident, then you got to learn what it what you can do to help them be confident and what you do to hurt hurt them. And when coaches tell me this is how I always coach, and I coach everyone the same, and I've been successful, they're usually the ones that have been deteriorating slightly. And I'm like, then great, you'll have a low confidence athlete or team if you don't want to change the way you coach individually.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that you brought this up because what came to mind was, especially for us in the softball space, is we've noticed that there tends to be more male coaches. And so what you're saying makes absolute sense of the male coaches that are coming to me, and I'm guessing to you of okay, this sounds great, Doc. I would love to talk about emotions and vulnerability and building mental skills and team trust with my female athletes in softball, volleyball. It might be harder for them to kind of figure out, okay, how do I coach the mental side of the game? And what you're saying is to build trust, we have to be vulnerable, which is a perfect segue because that's what I wanted to talk about with you today. Is the teams that you've coached that have accomplished amazing things, you've taught me a lot about trust. Let's just dig into that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, I mean, to me, trust is the cornerstone of championship teams. So when we really study what great teams do better than the rest, there's a whole host of ingredients, but two of them really stand out to me that leads teams to be able to get to ultimate trust on a team. And one is learning how to accept your role and crush the role you have, whether it's the role you want or not, and really be able to have open dialogue about that with um, you know, your coach, your team, even if you're frustrated with things and to be open and vulnerable there. And then I think the real key is this ability to build deeper relationships uh through vulnerability. And without that, I just don't see empathy and trust being built on the court when the pressure hits. And and I tell teams my part of vulnerability at times, um, coach, is sharing your hard stories, right? And sometimes they're deep stories. But the truth is on teams where I really see vulnerability come through and where I challenge athletes a lot is to be able to share with a teammate that I'm having a bad day. I'm having a bad week. And I know we got a big game in two days, and I got some really bad news an hour ago at home. And whether you share your story with your teammate or teammates or not, but to be able to acknowledge and say, look, I'm having a tough day. And I need you to help me stay positive today and help me stay focused, help me keep my energy up because my brain wants to be anywhere other than here right now, but I know I need to be here. And so this notion of that can you lean into your teammates? And you know, I always say you can do softball or any sport, you can do it alone or you can do it together. You can do life alone or you can do it together. And this is a great opportunity when you're on a team to be able to lean into your teammates. And if your cup's running dry, let people pour into your cup. And you know what? If you're having a really good week or two, things are just going your way. Can you get outside of your own head and pay attention to who might need you today? And look around and see whose attitude and effort might be struggling. And can I lean into you and check into you and go, instead of just getting mad at you today and going, man, what is she in a bad mood for? To go, I don't know what's I wonder what's going on with her today instead of what's wrong with her today. And that is all about being vulnerable, you know, getting outside of your own head to help others and to let others into your world. And without that, you can't get to trust. And then once you get to trust, um, now we get a chance, you know, when the pressure hits, it's not that hard to trust each other when you're winning six to nothing in softball, everything's going your way. What happens when someone makes a couple errors in a row or a team's just getting punched? Do I trust my teammate to do their job? Do I trust myself to do my job? You know, are we fighting together or are we on islands? And and you know, you've been around enough teams and played it at a high level to know when you see a team all go into their own little silos and they quit doing the behaviors that help them and they have a breakdown in trust. And usually that's because they haven't built trust off the field to be able to really have trust when the stress hits. Because none of us really need that much when everything's going overway. It's when things are in struggle, how quickly do we bounce back individually and team as a team? So trust is everything. It's it's hard to build, easy to break. Takes a lot of work to build it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and a lot of that I've observed from you is you can't build trust the night before the state tournament. You can't build trust halfway through the season. And uh correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if you still do this, but if a coach wants to hire you, one of the things that I learned from you is I don't want to come in in the middle of the season because of the perception of what the players are thinking of, okay, well, now doc's coming and we're, you know, coach brought somebody in because we're stinking it up versus being more proactive and supporting a team through the whole season. Then there's less of a stigma when it comes to getting support on mental health, mental performance. Can you do you still kind of follow that guideline when you work with teams?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Now, there's an occasion where I might come in and just give um a very short talk in the postseason for a team if they request it, but it's more very specifically a motivational kind of thing, or let's talk postseason strategies. But there's no way, I mean, first off, and you know this, like it takes a long time for us to be able to build trust with a bunch of strangers, and probably even a little bit easier for you in the softball world and maybe other worlds, you're female, you played the sport, you have credibility in what you've done and who you are. And for me, older male, you know, maybe has a decent resume, but they're like, Well, who what are you bringing Doc in for? Like, why now? And right, um, and if a coach, I just learned it a long time ago that it's it's not good to bring someone in mid-season and when there's a crisis, like it's too late, to be honest with you. I mean, because you also want to be teaching them the ingredients of how you build trust, how do you build vulnerability, how do you build relationships through exercises, through discussions, and all honestly, like what does commitment look like within a team at different levels? Because if commitment falls short as an individual athlete and they're not all in, well, why would you trust your teammate, especially if things aren't going well? Like if you know that they aren't getting their sleep and they have questionable behaviors on the weekend and they quit showing up for extra reps because they're disappointed in their role or if they have the role they want, they still have quit doing the things they said they would do. Well, there's no trust without commitment. And right, and there's no way to be confident in your teammate if they aren't doing the things they said they were doing, would do, you know, um, long after the emotions they set it in left them, you know. And so, you know, I mean, to to to try to help a team in crisis mode, just not my now, I don't mind helping teams in crisis if I built a relationship with them. We have to, right, right, and that's kind of fun for me sometimes, not because their crisis usually isn't as full blown as they think it is. You know, they're they've lost a couple of games and you know, we're horrible now. So, but to come in out of the blue and try to help bridge trust with the team and solve their issues and not have them think, oh great, we're in trouble now from coach, or coach thinks we're failures or great coaches bringing you in because we're falling apart, I think it's too late, to be honest with you, for teams that you don't have a pre-existing relationship with.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Yeah. And I can think of a couple of teams that made it to the state tournament that I had conversations with coaches and parents where the parents and players see the value of the work that we're doing. But then some of these coaches, how do you have those conversations with coaches where, you know, do you do a lot of work to convince coaches on the importance of this? Or do you just show them anecdotally of like, you know, you made it to the state tournament, but you know, you can't make it to the state finals or you know, any of these coaches that may be on the fence and maybe for some of our listeners, where, okay, I hear you, doc. I I kind of see where this could be valuable, but how do we get coaches and families to go from, yeah, that's great, to okay, we're actually gonna do something about it? Do you how do you have those conversations?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I mean, so that's interesting because, well, I'm gonna start forward and then go backwards. Like when I'm with a team for the first time, I always tell them within our first hour, it's my job to make sure they understand why we're here. Why did Coach Invest? Uh, because that'll let me go backwards here, you know, and then we got to be able to teach them what we train and how we train it. Like it's why, what, and how. But so within the first five minutes with a team or about 10 minutes, you know, I will talk about our role being small but significant, right? We don't spend as much time as they do training or maybe with their trainers and strength and conditioning. And partly I also want them to know that I'm not trying to step in and say we're the be and all end all when you have people that are with you every single day grinding. Um, but I ask them to so there's two parts of the why piece, uh, take off the mental health piece. But meaning, right, so I ask them, you know, I'll ask a softball team or any team really, but we'll stick with softball. Um, you know, in your opinion, not mine, how much of your sport is mental, how much is physical in average moments, not the biggest moments you'll face, not hitting some balls in the dark by yourself, you know, at, you know, um, and the most common answers I get from your athlete or athletes are 40 to 80 percent mental, you know, and I tell them I don't know the exact number, but I also say, you know, notice that I didn't walk in today and tell you softball is a mental sport, you better work on it. You just told me there's a mental contribution. Now I say to them, how much time does a typical, say, class A softball player spend working on their mental game or college player or whatever? And that's their first aha moment because they'll tell me we don't train it very much, or some will say we don't train it at all. So I said, You said it's 40 to 80 percent mental and you don't train it very much. That's part of why we're here. And then I get into their outcome goal. And you know, high school kids typically want to make it to state. So I'll say you're in the district finals, all right. We I've jumped forward, we're in the district finals tonight, and it's um we're losing three to two in the bottom of the seventh inning, base is loaded with two outs, and you're at bat, and it's a full count. If you get a hit, our team goes to state. If you don't get a hit, we go home. And I say it's not your fault if we lose, it's a team sport, but someone's up last. In your opinion, not mine, team, how much of that at bat is mental, how much is physical? Most common answer I get then is like 95 or 100% mental. So now we've got them bought in, right? You just told me the biggest goal you set this year, you just told me it's almost all mental, depending on the situation. Now, if you're up seven to nothing in the top of the seventh, you're at bat, not a very mental at bat. So now they've got the why part. So now you're like, all right, so if if that's what I need to get them to buy into once I've met with them, if I'm trying to talk to a coach, it's the same method, which is let's talk about how much do you think the mental contribution of your sport, because now you're also learning how how valuable you think it is to a coach. If a coach says, Look, I need you to help my team so that when I get on them and yell at them, they don't cry. Well, they're they don't value the mental side. They want, or if they're like, you know, my athletic director says, I need to have somebody work with my team or I'm not going to keep my job because he doesn't like the way I coach them. I'm too hard on him. I'm always like, you don't really want me as a coach being with you. Because I'm a positive psychology guy, which is which some of them think that means being soft. And it's not being soft at all. It's teaching them ways to help their team be grittier, actually, through actually not humiliation and fear. Um, so but having an honest conversation about with the coaches about what are you looking for? Why now? What are you looking for and why? How much do you think the mental contribution matters to a team under pressure? Um, you know, it helps. And I don't really like talking about successes that much, but I mean it does help that a lot of coaches that reach out usually are reaching out because the team I'm working with beat them at state.

SPEAKER_02:

Or I mean, just being honest, or you know, you're you know, or they make it to a certain level and then they punch it all the way through.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, whatever the level is, it's not always about winning state or making it to state. It's like I've noticed that team was really gritty. Like that team, um, like they've never been good. And I saw them fight in a way they hadn't fought before, and they're still just an average team, which nothing wrong with that. I think coaches can see that a lot of the teams we work with, they're they approach Max Out. And and Max Out, I always say, if it's always about holding a trophy, that's a really sad life. Like you they can't just always be about holding it. But I think athletes and coaches are really good in reflection of going, did our team fall short of our goal because of things that got in our way, or did we fall short because we left it all out there and the team that beat us, or we reached our goal. It just wasn't a goal that other teams set. Like we just wanted to beat our rival, we just wanted to finish in the top half of the conference. Um, we just wanted teams to not feel sorry for us when the season was, you know, and the game was over.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That was one team's method of that I wrote about in my book of like valuing how success looked like. So I think we got to understand what the coach is looking for. And but then, you know, coaches want help with the what and how as well. Because as you know, like a lot of coaches say they'll tell their team, I need you to be mentally tougher right now, or I need you to relax. And they're like, Well, coach, if I knew how to relax or to be mentally tougher, don't you think I would do it? Great. But how, yeah. Their coach would go, I don't know how to do it, but you better figure it out. So I think it's just as important once we talk about why we can help, we got to be able to tell them what we can help with. You know, we can train confidence, we can train focus and refocus, we can train staying calm and cool under pressure, and we can get into how we do that with the strategies. So now coaches want the same thing, which is if I'm gonna bring in strength and conditioning, what are you gonna do for us and how are you gonna do it? And so it's our job, I think, to do a great job of explaining why, what and how. But the coach better explain a little bit of why they want it for us first, because that's a guide into whether we're a good fit or how much do we even need to teach them about what and how to get them to decide um, no, this is something I want. But then we also have to get them to value, I say, um, you know, putting in the time and effort with what you value. Is there alignment? You you know, I I've told people the story and wrote about Coach Cook at Nebraska, you know, pretty famous volleyball coach. And when he first said to me, Doc, I really want to get dive into mindset with my team. Um, this is a year, year and a half before they want it all. And I said, uh, great. And I said, Well, I need at least 30 minutes a week with your team in the offseason. And he um and he says, Oh, we don't have time for that. I said, Oh, okay, well, how much how much time do you devote to yoga? And he goes, Oh, they do it an hour a week. They love it. It's really important to them. I said, How about strength and conditioning? And we went through a few things and I said, So those are really important to you, aren't they? He said, Yeah. I said, when you can give me the time um that you've given your other teams to mindset because you say it's so important. Now I know you really mean it. So call me when you have the time because 30 minutes a month isn't gonna cut it. We'll all fail. And um, he got that, and then you know, eventually said, Yeah, let's I'll build in the time necessary to do what we need to do to train mindset with our team, like we do the other things. And so the worst thing I could have ever done was because I wanted to work with his team, or I'm caught up like, wow, it's Nebraska volleyball, is to do it and fall short because we didn't have the time necessary, and that I didn't explain to him or another coach in this world. Like you said, you can't just you can't just teach it the night before the state championship, or you can't go bottom of the seventh inning. I think I'm gonna try that breathing strategy that that coach uh at Fearless taught us for the first time. You can't just try something out and go, I think I'll try that now. Too late. You got to breathe in, you got to try things out. So probably a longer answer than you wanted, but I think that's you know, with without getting the coach's buy-in to what we're doing and understanding what we do. Um, without the coach, it all falls apart.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I think you touched on some great topics of especially in the high school level. We talk about this all the time. You take out postseason and it's eight to nine weeks. It is like softball is even more condensed than volleyball. And that is the biggest resistance I've seen is hey, you're gonna have to sacrifice some of the physical field time to get them in the classroom, to get them in front of their journals, to give them time to slow down and think about some of these mental skills and practice them and journal on them. And to your point, I love the analogy of you know, yoga, strength and conditioning. Show me your calendar and I'll show you what you value. I think another analogy that I like to use is if I were a head coach again, I really knew pitching. I loved working with the pitchers. I was going to hire an assistant coach that knew about hitting. I'm I'm not gonna take the time to learn. It would take me years to feel comfortable enough to feel like I knew what I was doing as a hitting coach compared to what I was doing as a pitching coach. And so I use that analogy all the time of look, we're not asking you to learn mental performance or become a mental performance coach and try to do this yourself. We're coming alongside you and showing you just as if you would hire a strength coach, a hitting coach, a pitching coach of like, let me come into the fold of your coaching staff. And I can't do that if I'm only seeing them once a month. Or, you know, we're on a Zoom call for 15 minutes. So I that is a perfect fit to what you were describing, especially with uh John Cook, I mean, and Nebraska volleyball. Obviously, they've been successful. And again, it's not all about championships, but you go back to some of the stories you've told of the teams that did win the national championship. Yes, they have physical talent, but they had those ingredients of ultimate trust, vulnerability, all of the things that we're talking about today, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I always say you have to have enough talent to compete for championships. Like you can love each other and build relationships and communicate at the highest level. But if you don't have enough talent, you aren't going to win it all. But it's not going to be the team with the most talent that generally wins it all. It's going to be the teams that also crush the non-uh technical skills of their sport, right? Role acceptance, vulnerability, communication, how you resolve conflict. Um, all those types of things allow teams with enough talent to compete for it all. And then sometimes you can do everything right in this world. I mean everything. And you just don't always get to reach your goal. It's just life and sport aren't always fair. And um, you know, we were talking about a couple of teams earlier that, you know, have competed for championships repeatedly, but they fall short. And, you know, sometimes you do everything right, or you know, or maybe those are times where teams reflect back and go, what is what was the missing piece that we had? And that's not just anything. It's like, did we did we take advantage of all the different things that allow a team to be great besides the the technical aspects of our sport? And that's usually when teams, you know, reflect, you know, again with Coach Cook, he he had 32 things on the board after you know, Texas beat us for like the seventh straight time that said, How are we going to beat Texas and Penn State by two points? That's all we got to do, beat them two points by three. And there were a lot of things on the board that said they had to do better. Some were physical, some were technical, some were tactical, and some were mental. And I think the great coaches are able to sit back and reflect. And sometimes it's after you've fallen short a couple of times of where you thought you would be, or fall fell short under pressure that the most growth takes place. That's when people are the most open to what else can I do to give my team the best chance to max out. And then again, like I said, sometimes you can do everything in this world and sometimes you still fall short because the other team's great too. Um, and life and sport aren't always fair.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Which is a great segue. Uh being mindful of time. One of the topics I absolutely wanted to hit today is mental health and the importance of like there are moments in sport in life where life is simply not fair. And so, can you kind of what analogy, what how do you describe the difference between mental health and mental performance?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. You know, there can be an overlap to people that struggle with both, but you know, mental health is is is more clinical, right? So we're talking about now somebody who has um severe anxiety, maybe related to a trauma they had in their life, maybe has PTSD or post-traumatic stress, or maybe they were born and wired for social anxiety and having extreme shyness or fear of embarrassments and worries about what people think about them all the time, or maybe they have panic attacks, um, you know, or maybe they've had severe clinical depression. Um, something that requires a little bit more depth treatment, sometimes with intense therapy, maybe medications in some people who need them, um, you know, a variety of different tools. And, you know, to me, um, it's really hard to be great with mental performance in your sport if your mental health is really suffering. I do tell people you can be great in your sport while you're working on your mental health. But, you know, some people have a genetic wiring or predisposition for a mental health condition like depression or anxiety or OCD or ADHD. Um, some have had situations that have happened in their life that make it happen. Um again, maybe someone's had an abuse issue or been in a severe car accident, for example, which is the number two or three reasons someone might have PTSD. You know, things happen in our life that we wish we didn't. You know, as you get older, maybe, you know, somebody passed away unexpectedly and horribly, like your mother or your father or a sibling or one of your best friends was killed in a car accident. And that can change your mental health and well-being pretty quickly, especially if you're wired for it on top of it. So um I do think it's always important that if you suspect, as a coach, a mental performance coach, or just a coach who is around a lot of people, to be looking for signs and symptoms of what might be different in somebody who's struggling with performance anxiety, like I'm getting really nervous before games, like really nervous. Um, but I don't get nervous at school, you know, very often. I don't get nervous in that situation. I'm very confident in, but so trying to determine when they overlap, when they're separate. And it's not the job of a coach to determine if someone's got a mental health problem. But it it I do think the coaches and the teachers of this world are the ones who are around people the most outside. Outside of their families, who can look for signs of things to go, you know what? Um, would you be open to seeing the school counselor or going to see someone? I think what you're describing may be more serious than just like mindset or performance anxiety kind of stuff. Um would you be open to having someone more formally look at that? Um, that's what I do even in my world now, even though I'm a trained psychiatrist. I'll say, look, I'm not gonna diagnose you with depression. And I'm not gonna ask you all the questions that would give me that diagnosis because that's not my role with you and your team. But I do think it would be a great idea based on a few things you said to me that says, hey, I think maybe you should at least have it evaluated. And so um I'm a big believer in talking about mental health. I mean, even though I don't necessarily diagnose it and treatment, treat it now with athletes and teams that I work with, because I separated out. Um, but I want to normalize the discussion. You know, that's the most important part. So one thing I do is I tend to show athletes the most recent division one or high school data. And I think when they see that 15 to 20 percent of athletes roughly in a given year report some depression and 30% report some anxiety, um, some of which is really clinical, um, to go, all right, there's nothing wrong with me, right? And to be able to have them realize just here's just the reality 50% of you are gonna struggle with mental health or well-being at some point in your lifetime. Half of you won't. Um, but making sure they understand that 100% of them are gonna be impacted by mental health because it's gonna be a teammate, it's gonna be a family member or a friend, someone you're married to, someone you're dating, a coach, a teacher, a coworker, that to get good enough to I ask them, look, even if you're blessed with good mental health, can you develop empathy for those who struggle and be aware enough to help point them in the right direction if it's if you think that maybe they're struggling and talk about it. And um, because I think so many athletes think they've been given the message you're weak if you have mental health issues. Your um your coach might not play you, or what will my teammates think?

SPEAKER_02:

And I think the more or if I just work harder, if I can work myself out of this, I should be able to fix this on my own.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02:

The reality is that they, yeah, they need help.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think the more we can then what I think, and probably you as well, because I have so many athletes on my podcast that are willing to share their struggles, you know, and to be able to play those clips for athletes. And it doesn't always have to be in their sport, but of course, you know, having them listen to Jordy Ball or Hannah and Lauren Camenson or Ruby Malin in the softball space in Nebraska, they might resonate more with a softball player, as with, you know, maybe um, you know, Jordan Larson or um, you know, um any of the the the the newer athletes in volleyball, Nora Sis and Um, you know, Lexi Rodriguez, any of those more recent athletes that might be willing to talk about their struggles or anybody who's considered more famous in their sport, I think of course it resonates with them to go, wow, are they struggle? Oh, I would have never guessed that I would have never guessed that she struggles with mental health or well-being. And when they're willing to talk about it, you know, Lindsay Krause in the volleyball space open on our podcast about part of my greatness of seeing a therapist. Like no shame, no stigma. And of course, in softball, nobody has been more vulnerable than Jordi Ball. And any athlete I've met in any sport, she's talked at your at your retreats, she's been on my podcast, she's was the lead speaker at the play for page golf event last month. I mean, nobody's been more willing to share that hey, at times I struggle with mental health and well-being or my mindset. So what? It's just part of me. Um, it's all I but I've had I but I also work on it too. And so I always say that the great athletes, they all struggle with everything that our typical high school and college athletes struggle with. They just don't think they do. I said, No, they struggle with everything you do, they just get really good at awareness of what they struggle with and strategies and an openness and a vulnerability to be willing to work on whatever it is, mental health, mindset, or both. And I think that just kind of just it just brings so much comfort to athletes today to go, wow, I had no idea. I figured that there's no way she'd struggle. Well, you know, Meredith Beaston in volleyball at Nebraska, who's loved on our podcast. This, yeah, I've struggled with them both. So what? You know, and then the number one draft pick in the whole professional volleyball draft. But I struggle, I've struggled with my mental health and well-being. I've struggled with my mindset, but I've worked on them. And that's been the biggest blessing that I've had for high school kids today, and younger, even now, as you know, that that struggle and think there's something wrong with them. And there's nothing wrong with them. They just have something wrong, no different than if they struggle with kind of a chronic shoulder issue or a knee issue, or um, you know, or they have to work with a nutritionist to fuel their body a little bit better, or maybe I got to work with a tutor in classes because, you know, I have some learning disabilities or struggles in certain classes. No shame in that. And I so I think you believe this as much as I do that we have to reduce the shame and stigma and normalize the discussion about mental health. And then in mindset, knowing that they can train their mind like any physical skill, you know, on the right place.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and all we're doing is shining more light into dark areas that were once not talked about or went on. And you know, Jordy talked about this a lot of I stayed in the dark too long, I let these thoughts consume me. I should have sought out help sooner. And then once she realized that it's okay to be not okay, it's okay to not be okay. That that is transformational because again, it's not, oh, when I get a national championship or when I get recruited or when I make it, then everything will magically be better. And it's just not the case. It's almost more likely that they're gonna face it because the pressure's higher, the the stakes are are higher. So that's been a huge takeaway for the girls that have attended the retreat just to be able to have those conversations. I have a question for you as a follow-up to that. On the clinical side, what is their number one reason for not seeking help sooner? Is that something that you could pinpoint as like a common denominator?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, it's it's a variety of things. It's uh shame, right? It's worry. What will people think if they hear about it? It's access sometimes, you know. I finally decided I'll see somebody, and then they call up and between their insurances and all this stuff, you know, can't get in to see anyone for six weeks or three months. Like, well, that doesn't do any good, you know. Um, it could be access with insurance or cost. Like if you don't have the insurance that covers that um for mental health, that can get cost prohibitive. Um, you know, going to an office and finding the time to do it. Again, sometimes it's really hard to do that depending on do you have your own car and how you're gonna do that if you're in in high school or you know, you get to college and some universities are completely loaded with mental health people, and others like they have hardly, you know, they have someone there's two days a week and they take care of all the non-student athletes too. And again, they go in order of crisis. And then you're like, my finding was willing to maybe check it out and couldn't get in for two months, and then you know, you forget about it. You say, I I don't make me the appointment. So I think, I think, I think the worry of what people think and the shame that might be associated with it is the biggest. The messaging you get at home from your parents sometimes, you know, is big, like that message of just pick yourself up by your bootstraps or just get over it, or you got to be tougher. Um, it's not that big a deal, you know. Like we try to solve our kids' problems rather than listen, you know, and give them solutions that aren't gonna work for them, or we dismiss their concerns and go, it'll it'll get better. Don't worry about it, right? Or to be honest with you, I would say, just since you brought it up, if there was one myth I could dispel for this is for the coaches and the parents out there in this world, is that for a long time on the clinical side, people thought that if you ask somebody about suicidal thoughts, you might give them the idea to do it. You could introduce that idea to them, something they'd never thought of before. You know, the science, the research completely supports the opposite. That if you've asked somebody about it, you're more likely to save a life. That I guarantee you they've already, if they're gonna, if if they've if they're gonna do something, they've already thought about it. And that you're never gonna introduce it, but you might get them to say, I have had some of those dark thoughts actually. And then you ask what he will tell me more about it as a coach or a parent. You're not diagnosing, but you're like, well, how serious are your thoughts? Well, you know, you know, when my brook boyfriend broke up with me, I thought, well, probably shouldn't be here in this world, you know. But that passed after a few minutes. And or, you know, ever since that thing happened, I can't get these thoughts out of myself that I'd be better off not living in this world. And and then you're like, Well, have you put how much thought have you put to it? Well, I've actually stockpiled a f uh a bunch of tile and all like, okay, whoa, all right. Let's that a coach can ask those questions, a parent can ask questions, and that might help determine do they need help right now or not? Or say, well, thanks for sharing that. Or they're saying, like, look, I would never do it though. You know, I didn't, I've never acted on it, you know, I would never do that to my family, I would never that do that to my God. Spirituality is too important. And you're like, okay, um, sounds like you could probably still use some help, but if you're having those, but I don't have to worry about you, me finding you tomorrow morning dead. But if we could just ask the questions, if we I always say don't leave anything unsaid, right? Ask the questions.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it goes back to the Kevin Hines story of Kevin Hines came and and Barb and Jason brought his incredible story of he is a suicide survivor. And he talked about on that day of like he just wanted somebody to ask him, the bus driver, somebody to recognize that he was struggling. And if your kid is struggling, whether you're a parent or a coach, it's okay to have the conversation, it's okay to ask. And I love that we're talking about this. And I love that the work that you and I are both doing with the play for page 33 foundation and getting more awareness of we're we're teaching coaches and parents to talk about these things and not only talk about them, but here's how you bring it up. Here's how you get these athletes the help that they need.

SPEAKER_00:

And step one is have the conversation, and to let them know that they're never alone and that most things pass, right? When we think we can't cope with that anymore, or it's never gonna get better. And um, just you know, so of course, you know, Jason and Barb, their daughter committed suicide a few years ago. Paige, she was an elite softball player, played at Scut, was gonna go to Sioux Falls to play. And um, and I always tell people when I think when Jason and Barb, I think of courage. Like, well, you're a parent, I'm a parent. I I I don't know this for sure because we'll never know how we, you know, we you wouldn't know, but I don't think I would have the courage to be able to start a foundation and devote a lot of my time and energy to and money and resources to go. My mission is to help give back to students, student athletes, even more than students, but students too, they give back to. And of course, they love the softball space. So not just softball, they give back to other sports too, but like to go, we're going to spend the rest of our life trying to make sure no parents have to feel like we did, and that no student athlete or student feels like they're ever alone. And it just takes courage. And you know, they have to rip open that bandage every time they share Paige's story. And then they bring in, like you said, people nationally who have stories about surviving suicide and athletes like Jordy and then her teammate Hannah Korr, uh, who just transferred here from Oklahoma, and she shared a story at the golf event. And like, wow, okay, how powerful is that? But I give so much credit to Jason and Barb for how they've approached this next part of their life, and because it'd be so easy just to shut down, right? Just never talk about it and just never discuss Paige, or if you did briefly and maybe with family, and they have they just take so much pride, I think, in sharing her story. Um, pride in who Paige was as a human being, not pride in the fact that they also felt like maybe Paige could have shared more, you know, like Paige could have probably shared more with us. She could have told us even deeper, even though she was getting help. Um, we thought we were doing all the right things. And so I give them so much credit for who they are as human beings and what they've been willing to do around the country, but boy, the state of Nebraska has really benefited uh from and and and your program and what we do has benefited from their willingness to devote their time and energies to, as they described it this year, turn pain into a purpose. Yeah, and I don't know how else you can say it, it's it's pain, but they want to make something you know out of it. And they've saved hundreds of lives, I guarantee.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, no doubt about that. And page and page is everyone listening. I mean, everybody has a page in their life who gets amazing grades, is involved, has a friend group, does really exceptionally well in her sport. And so their messages to carry on her legacy of there are girls out there that you would never guess are struggling with this. And again, going back to the topic of the conversation today of have the conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and incredible family support. And yeah, and as they've hinted or talked about, is I don't want to share Paige's story today, but like she was bullied over some things, and so you don't know what triggers people sometimes, but you know, for some people, bullying can be I mean, it's just a brutal thing, right? And then if you're already a little bit more maybe prone, and maybe some other things are going on in your life and you get punched a couple of times, you can go from really good mental health and well-being to in a hole pretty quick in this world. And and um, you know, if I could challenge people to do is just listen more. You know, a lot of times we want to solve people's problems. We do, it's coming from a good place, but sometimes we people don't want their problem solved as much as just to hear, hear them out, listen to them. I be aware that they're in struggle, and they don't always are always looking for a solution from us, they just want to be heard. And a lot of times I think the helpers in this world want to help so quick, those are the coaches and teachers. It's not from a bad place, it's just not necessarily what the athlete or the person needs, they need to be heard, and so um so anyway, I'm glad that uh we've normalized the discussion. We can't do it enough. Thank goodness more and more people with a platform in this world, not just athletes, but non are willing to share their struggles. Where 20, 30 years ago, you almost never heard anyone share it. And now, I mean, it's it's become very normalized from elite performers in this world, not just athletes, but in all spaces of elite performance, to go, I struggle. Here's what I do about it. No big deal. No shame.

SPEAKER_02:

This is amazing, doc. Thank you so much for your mentorship and your wisdom and your stories. I want to share you as much as I can with our audience. And so, where are you most active? Are you still active on Twitter X? Like what's the best place to follow you?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's I mean, I I try to do a little bit on the other spaces, but I I let my partners do that. So I mean, I think I I know I have like Instagram and stuff, but I'm not the one that posts on it because yeah, I put pretty much post on X is where I do it. I'll do a little bit on Facebook actually now, just because I've got a couple different Facebooks and one of them goes to Instagram somehow, but mostly I like to post about stories or observations of teams I work with or people I see out there doing great work, um, you know, or athletes that, you know, just announce they got a scholarship, you know. Sometimes it's just good to recognize the work they put in. Um, but I try to keep it a very positive, really stay out of you know, politics and those other things. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people who do, but I really feel that's my space to um just talk about what teams and athletes do well, and sometimes even when they fall short to acknowledge that and say, you know, there's the lights gonna come out tomorrow, the sun will come out tomorrow, and we're gonna be fine. So, you know, we have a website, maxed out mindset, that kind of um shares a lot about what we do and who we work with, and you know, blessed to work with professional teams and Olympians. And but like I've said, my favorite space in many ways is the high school space. And I would have never guessed that five years ago, but I just think it's that it's the age, it's the the coaches, their willingness and um to work really hard on um both mindset and at least have discussions about mental health and well-being and vulnerability in a way that um they know too that what they want for their athletes is sure they want them to win. Who doesn't want to win? Right. They want them to come out better than when they left them, and then also see them get married and you know, go to graduate school if that's what they want, you know, married and be a mother or a father if that's what they want, you know, be a coach, um, be a doctor, a teacher, anything in this world that and to hear from your athletes five, 10, 15 years later and know that they're doing well and knowing that maybe some things we did for them, you know, helped them in a time period that was uh um a pretty um, you know, a time period of great growth for them and formidable for them to learn and grow and develop into who they want to become. So I appreciate everything you do. You know, I we always say most of our work's in the dark, like you know, you do these things, or you you're in a picture holding a trophy with somebody, but we do most of our work in the dark, and you know, behind the scenes, even if it's at a retreat, you're doing it with a handful of people day after day. And I prefer it that way to be behind the scenes and right, um, like I think you do, and that to see the reward of athletes, you know, reach their dreams. And sometimes that's just you know, getting a college scholarship, getting a college opportunity, going to college at all. That gave them the their their sport gave them confidence to know they could be someone could be the first in their family to go to college. And I think all those things are the things that you know I I take the most pride in.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, and it's so good. And and I'm jealous because I drove by Bagels and Joe this morning and I thought of our bagels and coffee conversation and you know, just the opportunity to grab a bagel or grab a coffee with you as a mentor, but then also the athletes that we're working with of just I'm getting to the point now where some of my clients are graduating from college and moving on and you know becoming adults. That's that's priceless.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, I've learned a lot from you too. So I uh you make it sound like it's a one-way street, but when you sit down and talk, you collaborate and you learn what you're doing and how you're doing it and why you're doing it, and little nuggets of things that have helped with athletes that you've worked with. So, you know, I think we the more we share and collaborate with each other, the better. There's as we know there's plenty of work out there, and I've never been one who's like, oh, I shouldn't talk to them because they might take what if they take some of my business? If they do, that's because that coach wanted to work with them and good, so be it. I mean somebody's working with them.

SPEAKER_02:

So it means the mental game is growing, yeah. Never will be definitely growing, and never will.

SPEAKER_00:

So I appreciate our collaboration and that the opportunity to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. Well, we'll post all of your links below your your Twitter. So if you're listening to this and you loved the conversation, you can reach out to us on Instagram, doc. I know you're on Twitter X. Um, and so if you guys have questions or you like this episode, reach out. We're here to help. Um, and then we'll also link play for page 33 so you can check out Jason and Barb's mission to honor page too. So this is a great, great interview, doc. Thanks for coming in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Contributor

Amanda Schaefer

Host