Prepare to be illuminated by the brilliance of Bell Labs as we sit down with Thierry Klein, the visionary at the helm of Nokia Networks' most forward-thinking division. This episode promises an expedition through the realms of innovation that have placed Bell Labs at the vanguard of technological progress for nearly a century. From the anticipation of 6G to the wonders of topological quantum computing, we venture into the essence of how digital twins are revolutionizing industry and why AI is pivotal in the orchestration of network automation.
Have you ever pondered the intricate challenges of lunar communication? Journey with us to the stars, and beyond, as we take a closer look at Bell Labs' historic contributions to space exploration, from the communication satellites of the '60s to today's efforts in establishing lunar networks. We discuss adapting 4G and 5G technologies for the moon's unforgiving terrain and the ambitious collaboration with DARPA to blueprint a thriving lunar economy. This is where science fiction meets science fact, and you won't want to miss a single detail.
Lastly, we underscore the power of partnerships in catapulting technology from the research lab to the heart of society. With insights into how collaborations with giants like Bosch and Aramco Digital are transforming vertical farming and warehouse operations, we showcase Bell Labs' commitment to innovation through diversity and inclusivity. Join us for this exploration of how Nokia Bell Labs is not just connecting the world but also nurturing the bright minds that will continue to redefine our digital landscape.
More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel
Prepare to be illuminated by the brilliance of Bell Labs as we sit down with Thierry Klein, the visionary at the helm of Nokia Networks' most forward-thinking division. This episode promises an expedition through the realms of innovation that have placed Bell Labs at the vanguard of technological progress for nearly a century. From the anticipation of 6G to the wonders of topological quantum computing, we venture into the essence of how digital twins are revolutionizing industry and why AI is pivotal in the orchestration of network automation.
Have you ever pondered the intricate challenges of lunar communication? Journey with us to the stars, and beyond, as we take a closer look at Bell Labs' historic contributions to space exploration, from the communication satellites of the '60s to today's efforts in establishing lunar networks. We discuss adapting 4G and 5G technologies for the moon's unforgiving terrain and the ambitious collaboration with DARPA to blueprint a thriving lunar economy. This is where science fiction meets science fact, and you won't want to miss a single detail.
Lastly, we underscore the power of partnerships in catapulting technology from the research lab to the heart of society. With insights into how collaborations with giants like Bosch and Aramco Digital are transforming vertical farming and warehouse operations, we showcase Bell Labs' commitment to innovation through diversity and inclusivity. Join us for this exploration of how Nokia Bell Labs is not just connecting the world but also nurturing the bright minds that will continue to redefine our digital landscape.
More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel
Hey everybody, happy Friday. We made it through another week and I have been so excited for this chat for so long with really an amazing organization. Amazing individual Tier decline. President Bell Lab Solutions Research within Nokia Networks Tieri how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm very good. Happy Friday, Evan, and thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, wonderful to have you here. You know I go back in technology to electrical engineering. That was my degree and at the time Bell Labs was and is legendary in my mind for so much innovation, so much fantastic history which is unfolding as we speak, particular things like the laser, that transistor, and so much more. We're going to dive into all that and the latest and greatest, truly greatest at Bell Labs these days, but before that, maybe introduce yourself a little bit of an update on the current mission and strategy within Nokia and a little personal intro to yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, evan. So I'm Tieri Klein. I'm President of Bell Labs Solutions Research. Bell Labs is the research arm of Nokia. We have a very long history, as you mentioned, evan. Actually next year, 2025, is the 100th anniversary of Bell Labs. Wow, we're leading an organization, bell Labs Solutions Research, which has the mission to look at new technologies, new customers, new markets, new business models that expand the portfolio of Nokia Nokia product solution services into completely new areas. So I grew up on the personal side. I grew up in Europe, moved to the US about 28 years ago for my PhD at MIT and right after I graduated, I joined Bell Labs. I've been at Bell Labs for 23 years now and have been very fortunate to work on a lot of different technologies in lots of different areas, always trying to balance the technology, the business, the strategy and with the goal to solve hard problems and really make an impact.
Speaker 1:While making an impact, to say the least. We were going to talk about future forward-looking opportunities like SpaceTech and 6G and dynamic digital twins, so I have a lot of questions here for you, so I hope you've been properly caffeinated. But talk about research and some of the applications that you're seeing today in solving real-world or other really world problems, and an update on the portfolio of research initiatives underway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Let me start, maybe a little bit, with a mission of Bell Labs. The mission of Bell Labs is to innovate with purpose. For us it is and has always been to solve the hardest problems of our generation. Those problems change from one generation to one decade to the next, but it's always been about solving the hardest problems of that generation and have a demonstrable impact on society. How do we communicate? How do we share information between us people, but also more and more between people, machines and between machines and machines? So that has been the foundational mission for Bell Labs. We tend to think future back. So imagine a future three, five, seven, ten years out. How do we then disrupt that future and then bring it back to? What do we need to do today to enable that future? So it's kind of this think long term but then work from where you are today to enable that and take the baby steps to make it happen.
Speaker 2:And within Bell Labs we have four research areas that we've defined and I'll just give you the four areas and I give you a couple of examples to illustrate what they entail. The first area is obviously fundamentals of networks. We're part of Nokia. We're building the most advanced network capabilities in the world and out of this world. So area number one is everything dealing with networks. Area number two is semiconductors and devices. Area number three is around automation technologies, whether that pertains to automation of networks or automation of industrial systems. And the fourth one, not surprisingly, is AI and software and data systems. So, if you allow me, I'll give you just quick examples. There are lots of projects underneath each of these areas, but just to give you a couple of examples on the fundamental of networks, of course, that's where you find all of our research on 6G. Everybody's using 5G, nokia's deploying 5G networks. We have started a 6G research program already three years ago because that's a generational technology that will come in the late 2020s, 2030. So we do a lot of research on communication and sensing using 6G technologies.
Speaker 2:We talk about semiconductors and devices. That's where you will find our research on something we call topological quantum computing, which we believe is the foundational technology that will allow us to build stable, effective, practical quantum computers again in the next decade or so. But it's also the semiconductor and device technology that goes into our wireless or optical portfolio, and then more and more looking at device technologies that we have that come from the telecom sector and seeing if we can apply that same technology in other areas. And one area where I'm particularly excited is using optical technologies for healthcare and medical imaging, and that's, of course, super exciting to see how you can bridge from one industry sector to the other.
Speaker 2:We talk about automation. I mentioned that pertains to automation of networks. These networks are becoming larger and larger, more and more complex, and you really need to bring automation technologies in to optimize and configure these networks in better and more dynamic ways. That's also when we talk about you mentioned dynamic digital twins we think about in industry 4.0 or the fourth industrial revolution. How do we build large, optimized industrial systems? And for us, digital twinning as a concept has been around for a long time. We really think about a real time fusion of our physical and digital worlds. How do I capture my physical world in real time? How do I create a digital representation of that physical world? How do I then optimize it, improve it, what is for productivity, efficiency, safety, sustainability, and how do I then affect the physical world again based on those decisions I make? So, really, that Fast interaction between physical and digital at large scale in factories, harbors, ports, university campuses, hospitals, whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:And then the last area I would say is a I and software systems.
Speaker 2:We've been working on a I for a long time.
Speaker 2:Actually, neural networks have been invented by young look who? When he was at bell apps. So we have a long history of I as well and we see really is being a transformational technology in networking, as well as these enterprise industrial systems. And just one small example that we're very excited about how do we bridge a I with networking? You can think of applying a I To optimize and configure your networks for energy efficiency, to ask things changing your network as you go from Hi demand during the day to low demand during night time. How do you configure network? How do you optimize the setup of the network? How do you change your power levels? How do you change your beam forming patterns To minimize the energy consumption of the network obviously super important while you're still supporting all of the customer and consumer traffic demands. So lots and lots of different areas, but we're super excited really about the technologies we have and applying them to lots of different problems in networking, industrial automation and then bridging into new sectors that we have not traditionally been in across multiple vertical industries.
Speaker 1:How exciting. I want to ask you which is your favorite research area. That's like asking what's your favorite child, but you must feel like a kid in a candy store sometimes. It must be particularly gratifying to see how the research you're doing with others as well as being used. In particular, there's some exciting applications in areas like space tech. Talk about Maybe some of the current collaborations and what the end game is there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in general, for us it's not about doing research for research sake. Then we want the research to have a real world, demonstrable impact, and that takes multiple forms. That takes forms of transitioning the research to the Nokia business unit, where the research is productized and commercialized. But more and more we also work with our customers, whether it's service provider customers or industrial partners, to accelerate the innovation lifecycle. How do we take the technology out of the labs, put it in real world and accelerate the transition from research into product? And that takes multiple forms. That can take partnership, that can take spin out of technology, that can take joint ventures. That can take multiple forms. For us and the partners we're seeking are the traditional customers and technology partners of Nokia, but more and more also industrial players. I give you a couple of examples. We work closely with boss, for example, in the industrial sector. Last year we signed a memorandum of understanding for collaboration with Aramco, which is the largest I think it's actually the largest company in the world largest oil and gas company.
Speaker 1:You're right, yeah.
Speaker 2:To see how information technology can help transform that industry sector. And then, more and more, it also takes forms of partnering with government, and I think you alluded to it. We're working very closely right now with NASA and DARPA to see how our technologies, from a telecom and networking perspective, can be used in space, and that's super exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exciting to say the least. Most of our childhood dreams revolved around space travel. Some of us still dream about that. Talk about that specifically. How is Nokia Bell Labs working with NASA and DARPA another amazing organization to design, deploy, build cellular networks on the moon? That's a question I thought I'd never even asked, but here we are. This is becoming reality.
Speaker 2:Well, bell Labs, we have a long history, even of working in space. So this is really a continuation of a journey we've been on for a long, long time. I think it started in 1962, we built the first communication satellite. Everybody knows Sputnik right as the first satellite. How about? One was the first communication satellite that we launched in 1962 to enable image and video transmission across the Atlantic.
Speaker 2:We have discovered the cosmic background radiation, which is the first experimental proof of the Big Bang theory, and then in the 60s and early 70s, we worked with NASA on project Mercury, gemini, apollo and subsequent missions, so for us this is just a continuation, but we really started doubling down in about 2018 to see how the technologies that we develop for terrestrial applications 4G, 5g technologies how can we take those technologies into space?
Speaker 2:How can we use those same technologies to support lunar and eventually Martian exploration and maybe semi-permanent or permanent presence on the lunar surface, on Mars, because we fundamentally believe that these technologies are the most advanced communication technologies that we have developed as a society and as an industry. Why not use those technologies for space applications? Of course they need to be adapted. The environment is different, there's lots of different engineering challenges, but fundamentally, we should not be reinventing the wheel. We should not be starting from scratch and create new technologies. When we have all this amazing capability already in our everyday lives and technologies that you, evan, and I use every day, why would we not give that to astronauts when they go to the moon?
Speaker 1:Well, it's going to be a fundamental part of the mission. And tell us about that mission, the upcoming IM2 mission for NASA. What's your involvement? Maybe lay it out how it works and will work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. We're on a mission called IM2. Im stands for Intuitive Machines. We have two partners on this mission Intuitive Machines and Luna Outpost. They're both amazing, leading very innovative companies in the space industry.
Speaker 2:Intuitive Machines is based out of Houston, texas, and they built spacecraft and lunar landers.
Speaker 2:So we develop a low-power, ultra-compact, optimized network that goes on the lunar lander, so you can think of that as the base station and the cell site that we deploy on the lunar surface.
Speaker 2:And then we work with Luna Outpost, who builds lunar robots and rovers that drive around on the lunar surface, and they're based out of Boulder, colorado, so we work with them to put radio equipment on the rovers. You can think of the equivalent of your smartphone that would go inside the rover. And well, this IM2 mission that will go later this year you may have seen the news just a few weeks back the IM1 mission landed on the lunar surface and that's the first time the US successfully landed again on the moon since the Apollo 17 days. So we're on the second mission that Intuitive Machines is flying later this year and we will set up this communication network on the lunar surface with a component on the lander and then connecting the lunar Outpost rover as well as a small hopper, and as they explore the lunar surface, they will send information back to the lander and then ultimately send it back to Earth, and so we provide this connectivity bubble on the surface for video image transmission, as well as remote controls of these robotic assets on the surface.
Speaker 1:Incredible, Wow. I need to take a moment to comprehend all that, but it is extraordinary and I can't wait to see some of the network diagrams and architectures you'll be putting out, because it's so extraordinary and you know so many applications here on Earth, I think, for how we design, deploy, manage advanced communication networks but we'll do another episode on that. That sounds like a deeper dive. You're also engaged with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Agency, an extraordinary group of thinkers who are designing, I understand, a kind of lunar architecture. You know, 10 years out, Talk about that. Cooperation, collaboration. What does that look like?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Well, we're absolutely thrilled to have been selected by DARPA as part of this Luna 10 program and if you think about the IM2 mission as taking the first baby step to deploy a network on the moon, darpa is really thinking what does a lunar economy look like in 10-15 years? What are the infrastructures that we need to build and enable that lunar economy? And that is multi-sector. That doesn't involve just communication, it involves a lot of other industry sectors. So DARPA created this program called Luna 10, of 14 companies that they selected across multiple industry sectors. You will have companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin there you have us from a communication perspective, but you also have companies that provide resource mining equipment, that provide process equipment, that provide transport on the lunar surface, like a railroad, or robotic assets that move equipment and minerals around. So you have this, this really holistic view of what do we need from an infrastructure perspective across the lunar economy and what are the interdependencies, and the goal is really to figure out who needs what and how do these pieces interact. And so, as an example, a lot of these other companies they need to send data to each other or within their own perimeter, they need to get data, so they need a communication network. That's where we come in and saying we have this infrastructure, we have this infrastructure capabilities, but we need to understand what your requirements are so we can size and scale up the network according. How big is your resource mining area? What coverage do we need to provide? How much data do you need to send? How critical is it from a reliability and latency perspective? So we know the technology, but we need to know how to dimension and size it. So that's sort of an input that comes from the other companies back to us. But then we also have requirements on other companies, for example from power when we deploy our network. We don't have, we need an external power source. So we then work with other companies and saying, if we deploy this network and it has this size and scale and capabilities, this is how much power we need.
Speaker 2:So we work with companies that are in the business of power generation on the lunar surface. We work with construction companies because we need to mount our equipment and I think if you drive in a city or along highways, you see these tall towers, we see the radio equipment. Well, what's the equivalent of that on the lunar surface? Who is providing that infrastructure and how do we then take our equipment and mount it on those, those lunar towers. So it's absolutely fascinating to see the interactions between them, the dependencies and really making sure that there's no gaps.
Speaker 2:I think DARPA is interested in understanding that we have this blueprint for future lunar infrastructure and what are some challenges maybe technology challenges that are not addressed, because that will maybe launch a DARPA hard challenge going forward and saying we know how to do this, but we have this one gap that we don't know how to do yet. So it's quite, quite fascinating to take this longer term view and it very much lines up with the Bell apps vision of future back. We're thinking 10, 15 years out. If you believe in that lunar economy, what does it look like? Who needs to be there? How do you make sure it's actually functioning and operating the way the vision is?
Speaker 1:Wow, really insightful, really insightful, thoughtful insights. There and beyond the lunar economy, we have the space economy, which is incredibly real and compelling today, as we've all seen, with advancements of SpaceX's incredible launch again this week yesterday Maybe talk about, you know, the future space economy, the role of communications technology and other thoughts on this incredible emerging and dynamic space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm absolutely convinced that if we, or when we explore space further, whether it's in Earth orbit or a lunar or Martian, we do need communications. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that communication, connectivity and computing are foundational and really vital capabilities if we want to have space exploration, whether it's short missions, whether it's semi permanent presence or permanent presence, we will have a lot more assets astronauts, scientific payloads, robotic assets, sensors, all kinds of devices that we deploy in whatever environment. That just take the lunar economy or the Martian economy will be very, very similar. We need capabilities to communicate, share data, transmit information, whether it's voice, video, sensor data, internet of things, data. So we need that infrastructure. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind. So what are the technologies that we need to develop to enable that? And that's really fundamentally what we're trying to drive. But we should also think about if the lunar economy is happening and it's more of a semi permanent, permanent presence. Otherwise, I don't think it's really an economy.
Speaker 2:If you just go for a week and come back, how do we transition to a model where, right now, every mission will bring down capabilities and every mission will bring their communication capability and the infrastructure? Then we think about programs. How do we provide capabilities that multiple missions can support, can use, so that not every single mission is reinventing the wheel? But ultimately we want to get through this service provider model. And if you think about what happens on terrestrial networks, you have service providers that provide this capability and when you go to a certain area, the network is there. You bring your device, you have a service plan and you connect and you can communicate and share data. What does that vision look like for the lunar economy? Is there a lunar service provider that, when you even go on a mission, you bring your device, you connect to the network that is already on the lunar surface and you have then access to all the service that you would have on Earth?
Speaker 2:So how do we enable that to really go programmatically to a service provider architecture, a service provider business model, service provider infrastructure, so that anybody that goes will just have the capabilities? Because it's not efficient. It's also not cost effective to bring communication capabilities over and over and over again when you could also more permanently set that up. And there's lots of engineering challenges. But we also think that the foundation of technologies are there. We know how to do this, but we need to solve some of the engineering challenges. Especially, you need to be able to launch the equipment. It needs to survive launch, which is very difficult, the transit to the moon, landing on the moon, temperature radiation it's a very, very harsh environment. So lots of really exciting technology challenges are going to solve to make this happen, and these networks have to be autonomously operating.
Speaker 2:So this project to deploy a network on the moon.
Speaker 2:If I come back to the four themes and the four research pillars I mentioned, it actually brings a lot of these things together in one system and one solution. There's networking, there are device technologies, there is automation, there is AI and it's really a really, really cool project, of course, but it also is a project brings a lot of technologies together, because when you think about the moon, there won't be a lot of people that, yes, we will have astronauts, but the astronauts have a mission. They have to focus on what they need to do. We don't need them to be network technicians and this network just has to be there. It has to work, it has to be self diagnosing, self configuring, self optimizing and it just has to work. And you can take a lot of crew time to have the astronauts set up and configure a network and that brings so many challenges of automation into networking. And then you have to monitor this remotely and maybe configure it from Earth, and so on. So lots of AI automation challenges beyond the, say, the mechanical challenges of setting up this network.
Speaker 1:Wow, fantastic insight there. Yes, we won't have tower climbers on the moon or Mars, I guess. I don't think we will.
Speaker 2:Robots for that.
Speaker 1:So you're solving just such complex challenges at Nokia Bell Labs and Nokia Networks is known for its innovation in so many areas, including, you know, green tech and sustainability, which has become kind of a top design principle for operators around the world. Talk about some of the work around sustainable, you know technology practices and bringing more of that thinking into engineering.
Speaker 2:I think there's multiple, multiple aspects to it. The first one is saying I want networks consume energy, so we want the networks to be as energy efficient as possible. We want the energy consumption of networks to be as low as possible, built a network so we can tap into renewable energy sources, and we just announced a couple of weeks ago that at Nokia we have a net zero initiative. So that is really important that our networks have the most energy efficiency, and I think we have quite leading capabilities in that space. We also recognize that our products and solutions enable such a digital transformation in other industries. So we are also part of using our technologies to help sustainability in other industries, as you have certain industries that they make that digital transformation. They rely on our products.
Speaker 2:So our CEO likes to say there's no digital without green and there's no green without digital. So we really see that, that interplay. And then, when we actually expand a little bit the scope of sustainability to ESG in general and if we connect it to AI, one of the things that we are very, very interested in working hard on is the whole topic of responsible AI. We can't just rely on AI and do AI for AI's sake. We have to be really careful about it from ethical bias, transparency, sustainability perspective. So this is an area that I think a lot of people in the world are paying attention to, but we're also quite keen on that aspect and building the right AI models taking advantage of the power of AI, but doing it in a sustainable and responsible way.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Well, us sci-fi geeks have firm memories of 2001, of Space Odyssey and Dave up in space, so we don't want more of that first floor but I digress. You do so much collaboration, obviously in the space tech case here with DARPA and NASA, it's clear collaboration is fundamental to the tech industry. You maybe talk about your culture of collaboration and the ecosystem you're building within Nokia Bell Labs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. There is no real innovation without collaboration. I think there's collaboration with universities and the academic side. We have a distinguished academic partner program where we have strategic engagements with universities across the world. In our Bell Labs locations around the world we collaborate on project by project basis with universities and professors. But we also have more strategic engagement. I'll just mention one we collaborate very closely with the University of Cambridge in the UK where we set up a center for mobile computing and that's a multi-year engagement to really look at how do we bring AI and computing technologies into mobile devices. So that's one example of a strategic collaboration framework we have.
Speaker 2:We also partner with industrial partners and customers and the traditional service providers and customers of Nokia, but more and more in the industrial space. I mentioned Bosch before we signed the Memorandum of Understanding with Aramco Digital In the past. We also collaborate with a company called AeroFarms, which is a vertical farming company. How do we bring our technologies from networking drones? We do research on drones and robotics. How do we bring that technology with computer vision, ai and analytics all of that technology together in the system to monitor in real time the production and the growth of a vertical farm? You can take the same technology and transition it into warehouse monitoring and inventory management. We work with a company called Graebar here in New Jersey to deploy that technology in their warehouses. So there's lots and lots of these examples.
Speaker 2:But for us the ecosystem partnership is so foundational because we need to validate the technology in the real world. We develop the technology, we solve the problems, we invent, we create in our labs, whether it's here in New Jersey or in other locations, but that's never the scale of a real world. The real world is much more complex. It's much messier than any lab. So we have to invent in the lab and then take to the real world to make sure we solve the actual real world business problem, we understand the complexities of the real world environment and we get the scale of a real world environment. So that industrial partnership is absolutely key for us. By partnering early we accelerate the innovation lifecycle.
Speaker 1:That's such an amazing opportunity here you must wake up every day and just look forward to heading into the office.
Speaker 2:Maybe describe a little bit about the team and the culture and these days, and what are you looking forward to over the next month or two, professionally, personally, travel-wise, otherwise, yeah, I think we are a very, very diverse team in Bell Labs different nationalities, we're, in different locations, quite diverse also from a gender perspective although we can definitely do much better on that and we're quite focused on improving the gender diversity in Bell Labs, but also in STEM and technology in general. So this is really really very close to my heart to get to gender balance In Bell Labs and in STEM in general. I don't think it's as a society, as an industry. We're there, but there's no reason why we can't be and, as maybe a site comment and anecdote, in the 1960s, bell Labs and the particular department where information technology was invented was a gender balance team. There's no reason why we can't be there again, but it takes time, it takes focus. It's, of course, the right thing to do, but it's also a strategic advantage and I personally feel like, if you want to compete and if you want to invent, why would you not tap into the potential and the creativity of everybody? Why would you not look at everybody in the world? And that's really our mindset.
Speaker 2:I have fantastic team in different locations in US, which is in New Jersey, but then also multiple countries in Europe, and we just like to challenge each other. We're a very flat organization. Anybody can talk to anybody, anybody can challenge anybody and I think that just brings the best out of the ideas from everybody. So that's really the mindset, the culture. We try and be disruptive, we try and be innovative, we try and solve the problems that we anticipate the world needs solving over the next five to ten years. Personally, I just came back from Mobile World Congress which, as you know, evan, is like an amazing show, a crazy schedule back-to-back meetings for four days, but very exciting to see a lot of people and have a lot of conversations. You said what do I look forward? In the next couple of months? I have some travel coming up, but I think the travel I'm really looking forward is, at the end of the year, going to Florida and seeing the launcher of the IM2 emission.
Speaker 1:Well, that will be an exciting time. And if you're ever up in the Cambridge area at US Cambridge the other Cambridge visiting your old alma mater at MIT, do look me up and also come on the TED Boston stage sometime and share your visions. You have an open invitation to do that.
Speaker 1:But thanks so much, terry, and congrats on all the incredible work. We'll be following closely and thanks everyone for watching. You know, reach out to Bell Labs, who are on at Bell Labs, on social media and, of course, nokia and Nokia Networks. You have just amazing, educational, insightful content streaming out every day. Thanks, terry, thanks everyone. Thanks, evan. Appreciate having me Take care.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bye-bye.