What's Up with Tech?
Tech Transformation with Evan Kirstel: A podcast exploring the latest trends and innovations in the tech industry, and how businesses can leverage them for growth, diving into the world of B2B, discussing strategies, trends, and sharing insights from industry leaders!
With over three decades in telecom and IT, I've mastered the art of transforming social media into a dynamic platform for audience engagement, community building, and establishing thought leadership. My approach isn't about personal brand promotion but about delivering educational and informative content to cultivate a sustainable, long-term business presence. I am the leading content creator in areas like Enterprise AI, UCaaS, CPaaS, CCaaS, Cloud, Telecom, 5G and more!
What's Up with Tech?
From Skepticism To Science: How Photobiomodulation Reduces Pain, Heals Tissue, And Boosts Performance
Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com
What if pain relief, faster recovery, and better sleep were a matter of getting the right light to the right place with the right dose? We sit down with Tom Kerber, engineer-turned-inventor and founder of SunPowerLED, alongside Dr. Hayman Buwan, physician and medical advisor, are bringing together deep engineering rigor and clinical insight to rethink how light-based technologies are applied in real-world health and performance settings.
We unpack photobiomodulation—the clinical side of red and near infrared light—and why some devices deliver real change while others barely scratch the surface.
Tom shares the unlikely path from blue-light dental curing to red-light cancer adjuncts and a personal back injury that proved how fast high-power LEDs can dial down pain. He explains the physics that most people miss: tissue is hungry, so you need total optical power and a large emitting area to drive photons deep into joints and brain tissue. That’s why cooling and engineering matter—air-cooled arrays that sustain output without bulky heat sinks let you get meaningful doses in minutes, not half-hour marathons.
Hayman brings the clinic: shoulder mobility restored in a six-minute session, knee and tendon pain easing quickly, dental patients healing from oral mucositis, and wounds closing faster with pre- and post-op light. On the brain side, we dig into concussion recovery, migraine interruption at aura, improved sleep quality across users, and early work in aphasia, autism, long COVID, and cognitive decline. We talk safety, where pulsing may require oversight, and why underpowered products fuel skepticism. You’ll hear about university collaborations targeting mood, opioid craving, and neuro recovery, plus why standardized protocols and dosing are the bridge from anecdotes to indications.
If you’ve wondered whether red light is hype or a true modality, this conversation gives you the science, the specs, and the stories to tell the difference. Subscribe, share with someone who needs relief today, and leave a review with the one condition you’re most curious to see treated next.
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Hey everybody! Fascinating and important chat today. Most people think of LED as bulbs, but Sun Power LED is turning them into a frontier of healing, pain relief, performance, and more with red and near infrared photobiomodulation. Yes, that's a new word for me. A quick note this isn't a sponsored or paid promotion in any way. Irma and I actually used the product at CES last week ourselves, thanks to Dr. Heyman here. And uh wanted a real conversation about the science and real-world impact behind this technology. Tom Heyman, how are you, Irma?
SPEAKER_00:Excellent. Excellent. Thanks for having us on.
SPEAKER_04:Well, thanks for being on the show. Um, let's start with you, Tom, for introductions. Uh, this is your baby. This is your your mission in life. Um uh starting from the top, you know, what problem were you personally trying to solve when Sunpower LED came to life for the first time?
SPEAKER_00:Well, Evan, I gotta say, I I wouldn't have even believed that LET could do anything um that way uh on the body. I was very much a skeptic um on some of the stuff I saw out there. This is 18 years ago. And it was only because I ended up uh meeting a doctor for my wife. Now, just prior to that, I had on the market a dental device to cure the white fillings. Everybody knows they go in the office and they get the blue light shine on their tooth and it hardens the filling, so light activates a compound, right? Uh, that's how that works. And I had no problem engineering-wise, understanding the principle. But when it came to light on the human body, no way. Um, that didn't make any sense. Just shine a light on something. But when I met up because of my wife's illness, I met up with this one doctor, and he turned to me and asked me what I did when I was trying to help my wife. And uh he he says, What do you do? And I says, Oh, I make this powerful blue light that hardens the fillings. I was actually the first one on the market with 3M to have the high power blue LED device uh for dentists. So I really did understand um light technology at the time, how that would work. So um, anyways, I understood that part, and he said to me, Can you make it in red? I'm like, what the heck? Why red? Um, and he says, Well, red is the right wavelength to photoactivate a drug that kills cancer. And uh it's called photodynamic therapy. And um, unfortunately, um it's not where it should be today because of tremendous pushback. Um, as you can well enough imagine, this could help um in the cancer front, big time. And we tried everything to move it forward, but that's how I got first involved with high power LED light. And because I really understood it well, I said, Look, I can build you a light that that um we can uh uh very, very powerful that can uh photoactivate the drug. And and this doctor had a um uh one of his patients was not doing well with the normal stuff. He had a tumor on his on his uh neck and a woman with breast cancer. And I said, Look, um the day that I arrived there just with my wife, uh, was the same day that he decided that he was going to go buy 10 red laser pointers and put them together with elastic bands. Like that's crazy. So we uh I said, no, no, no, listen, I'll build you something else. So I we built them like it it uh shrunk the tumors on in in a month's time, it shrunk the tumors on both patients. And we I really thought that was the the direction that I would head for the next, and I did, I kept that going on another company. But the red light that we that I'd made, I thought at one point I had the severe back injury from falling off a ladder, second floor height. And I put it, I thought when I got this light back from them to do a little tweaking on it, I thought, what the heck? I'll try it on my back and see if it does anything. Because I was in such pain. I was I was probably an eight out of 10 in the pain score, and uh when the pain is just screaming at you, and I thought I'll try this very powerful water-cooled light, LED light, and photo and try it on my back with no drugs, just just the light alone. Okay, and in about 20 minutes, my pain had reduced from about an eight to a three, and that's when I realized that light could actually help the human body help people with pain, at least it helped me, but I thought there's gotta be more people, and that was the start of the quest, and that's how I got going. But the um uh big thing about it was I needed now very powerful light somehow, and that that was the quest to figure out how to create a very, very powerful light that was simple to use and didn't require water um uh to cool it because I used a water cooler for for the for the cancer light with a pump on it, circulation uh circulation pump with water to cool the LEDs because the LEDs are so concentrated they produce a lot of heat. So that's what I ended up doing there, Evan.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, what a what a story, Irma?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I have uh a question for Heyman. Um for people hearing photobiomodulation for the first time, how do you explain what's happening in the body with this technology, maybe in simple terms?
SPEAKER_02:Sure, sure. Um so photobiomodulation is a clinical term now for uh clinical grade red light therapy. So if ever you want, if you're curious about whether a condition is going to be helped by red light, always type in photobiomodulation along with the condition. So if you break it down, it just basically means that light impacting the bio and modulating in some way. So if you want to, the simplest way to think about it is that our cells, just like trees, uh, can absorb light and convert it into energy. So specifically the mitochondria, that's what we're talking about. So sunlight in specific wavelengths, like that's why they remember the the whole trend now is people are saying, go outside in the morning, right? Get that first red light, the you know, that because there's a lot of evidence for it. Like there's a lot of evidence for that red light impacting our cells. Um, so mitochondria specifically have absorption of red light in in a between around 600 to 1100 nanometers. And that light can actually energize our cells. So, in particular the mitochondria. So think of it this way most of us uh like it's like a battery that's uh being undercharged. But when we go out in the sunlight, we charge our our own cells, and that charging our cells actually boosts the function of that cell and also allows certain pathways to get activated. So certain pathways that everything from regeneration, transcription, uh get woken up, right, with all that light and energy. And that's the simplest way to explain it. So um that's uh and anyone who's interested, just type in photobiomodulation. That's all the latest research you'll find. And there's countless research articles out there.
SPEAKER_04:Fantastic. Yes, that was the new one for me. I was a double E in college, so biology was definitely not my wheelhouse. But Tom, I mean, we uh Irma and I used the products uh briefly at CES last week, and um it was fantastic. Uh, here's a picture actually of Irma uh and Heyman at CES just on the show floor, uh trying it, and it attracted quite a crowd and uh definitely made us uh believers. We'll talk about our personal brief experiences. But um, you know, tell us you know, Tom, when it comes to customers asking, you know, what separates real photobio uh biomodulation technology from just the red light hype that is uh that's out there on every corner and every street. And Amazon, you see red light therapy of various kinds. What separates you on the clinical side from the hype that that's already out there?
SPEAKER_00:So uh the three things that are necessary to get light deep enough into the body is one is uh power. How much power do you have on the surface? Uh total power. Another thing is area um is uh very, very important, and wavelength, and also the tissue that you're penetrating. So one of the things that distinguishes us from the rest of the crowd is we have a medical grade device that we made in North America that that and we put um make it in such a fashion that it puts out a lot of light, as you saw, a lot of light energy, as you saw, and it's putting it out over a large area. So that there's a so what that does is if I took a very if I took um let's say a powerful laser and I put it on one spot, you could only stay there so long, so you'd have to keep moving it, otherwise you're gonna burn that spot. But what we have is a lot of power using powerful LEDs over a larger area, so it does not have to be moved or anything like that. But what with the area, the more area you end up having, the deeper, the more light or deeper that you penetrate. So you end up with more light energy on this side of my hand. If you have, if you start off with just a small amount, small little area, it's not going to be as effective as a large area. And then a large area, we want as much power as we can. So, as you know, you've seen the amount of optical power goes right through my hand here, as you can see it on the red wavelength. And when it comes to the near infrared wavelength, this one, you can see it some dots, it doesn't look very impressive, but that's a wavelength that our eyes can't perceive. So we so with that wavelength 810 or 1050, depending on the model, we can get much, much deeper. And uh that's key. So it's it's really about power density and area for those electric for those EE terms. It's how much energy can I pump in this side? When I pump in so much energy on this side, on the other side, I have still some energy coming through. If I start off with a very small amount, not much ends up on the other side. And this is really, really important when you're talking about trying to treat something deep, a hip, a joint, uh like a shoulder joint. The brain, you need a lot of optical power because as it goes through the tissue, the tissue will start eating up the energy. So you need more on the surface to get deeper in. And that's uh people don't realize how important it is to have a lot of optical power. And then what sets me apart is I've come up with an air, uh patent pending air cooling system. I have a number of patents up to my name. People can look that up, but this is a patent pending air cooling system that allows me to have this amount of energy without one of those big remember the old aluminum heatsink things that used to have. That's what this can you imagine having a 10-pound heat sink on the back side of this, you know. Um, no, I have this is what I've been able to come up with so I can cool this, these LEDs, and uh, because they do produce heat, they're only they're only uh uh 25-35 percent efficient. So all the rest is heat. So if I put a pile of them close together, they're producing a lot of heat. We got to get rid of that heat. Interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Heyman, medical training. A lot of medical grade. So, Heyman, so many potential applications from a clinical perspective. What's the area where you've seen the most consistent, repeatable results so far?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh actually I've been blown away. I'm a physician, an MD, trained and physician, so physical medicine and rehab. I've done everything from rehabilitation medicine, sports, brain injury, amputee care, uh, general sports medicine, geriatric care. And I never knew about red light, right? I never I knew about red light for heating, not in photobiomological, like actually healing and energizing cells.
SPEAKER_01:I never knew about that. And so I've been blown away. Oh, I've been blown away by the actual.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna try to move a little bit closer to the uh Wi-Fi here. So I've actually been blown away by the impact that it actually has. Um, for instance, shoulder pain, frozen shoulders are one of the hardest things to treat in medical medicine, especially for the elderly. So typically what we do is cortisone injections and then we do rehab. I've actually had red light, like Tom's red light product, it's the strongest, right? So I've actually placed it over a patient's shoulder and immediately had that patient range, improve their range of movement without any injections, just a six-minute treatment. That's it. So that for instance, that sports and muscle sceletal pain has been the biggest uh area that I've seen the benefit of. So that's muscle sceletal issues. So everything from knee pain, shoulder pain, joint pains. Now, the other area that actually has a lot of evidence in photobiomodulation is in oral conditions. So dentistry actually has a lot of research, especially in oral mucositis. So patients who've actually gone chemotherapy, radiation therapy tend to have a lot of oral lesions. And so that actually they've actually have a lot of evidence for that. Um and they've done countless research. And there's actually recently, actually, Tom can explain, is that the American Dental Association approved two billing codes to use photobiomodulation in uh dental practice. That's huge. Um additionally, uh other areas that actually red light therapy helps with uh that has research is wound care. So I've seen it in action with uh patients with decubitous ulcers, so that's bed source. Actually, the wounds heal much faster. And also there's some research to suggest that if you do red light prior to surgery, uh the wound healing at the incision site is much faster. Um, so that's huge. Um, additionally, amputee care can be improved significantly. Now, the other areas that actually have more and more evidence is concussions. And uh there's several studies that have come out that shown concussions, and we've seen it ourselves. For instance, I've got a semi-professional hockey player friend who was heavily into drugs, marijuana use, everything else. But after he started using just the helmet once, I just begged it, please try it. I'm just testing out this helmet. Please let me try it. And he just tried it. And the next day he calls me back and hey, Heyman, what did you do? Like, I I slept well and I not needed any of the marijuana stuff today. I've reduced the dose. It's huge, right? And so concussions we've seen a huge effect as well. There's so many other conditions, like migraines. We could actually stop a migraine. Uh now, not that doesn't mean that every migraine is going to be helped, but so far we've helped anyone who comes up and checks, goes on the helmet right after a migraine or use the palm, we've seen the migraine actually just stop. And if you have an aura, if you have a person with a migraine aura, like some premonition of the migraine coming on, if they place the palm over the site of where the aura is, they technically they typically don't have that migraine that day. So that's another area. Um stroke patients, so aphasia. So aphasia is a condition where patients actually have difficulty speaking, right? So we know that the the brain area that controls speech is on the left side, the parietal area. And if you put the light over that area, we found that the patients respond uh start speaking much faster. Now, one interesting area that I've been working with a QEG specialist and a neuromodulation expert on is autism. So autism is some area that we there's not much research, but we're doing the preliminary research for it. And we've seen kids uh actually start focusing better, they start talking earlier. Uh, this is after a few treatments, which is just mind-blowing, honestly. It's it's also really uh satisfying to see these effects fast. And I think to speak to Tom's point, like Tom's devices, this is the thing. Uh like his devices are very strong. So they actually get uh the results really fast. And you see it. Like you don't have to wait days for it, you see it in minutes. So that's just some of the conditions. Now, there's so many other indications for this. There's everything from gut health uh to vagus nerve you could do. And these are all areas that I'm looking into, like protocols with Tom and a couple of other researcher uh people who have joined on. We're looking into different areas that photobiomotication can actually help uh a person. Now, one area that actually significantly, Tom could actually speak to this as well, and I presume you've also experienced this, is that sleep is one area that improves significantly with the helmet. That's one common thread that we notice with every single person who actually goes under the helmet. The next day they'll say they had the most restful sleep. Um, and that's a common thread with all our users. So typically, if you answer your question, it's mostly muscle pain, pain, inflammation. Anything, think of anything that has inflammation, red light will help. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_04:And you know, uh Heyman and Tom will come to you, but there's so much cynicism about emerging and new medical and health technology. There's a lot of disbelief because there is a lot of snake oil out there, and you're you're the opposite of that. You have well established science behind it, but you are actively teaming with others and learning and testing. Where does that stand in terms of the science uh uh enlightening us as far as the benefits?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so uh one of the things obviously is to prove uh the light can, you know, in the in a study, um a good study that shows that like can make a difference. We've been able to work with some universities, uh one of the universities, Shepherd's University in West Virginia, that was able to show um the opiate addiction and depression can significantly be affected and improved upon so that the person feels less depressed, less anxiety driven, um better outlook in life, less desire for opiates. You know, so that's you know, just one university. We're getting close. To launching a number of studies at different universities, different locations. Some have started just as case studies, but all of this will show that not only can we have an effect on the body for pain and inflammation and speeding up healing, but we can also look at affecting the brain for strokes, concussions, traumatic brain injury, autism, you know, all uh Alzheimer's. Um matter of fact, uh one of the one of the gentlemen, um uh one of the doctors out of uh Texas, he's looking at um he's looking at uh starting in an Alzheimer Alzheimer study. Um so and another one is looking at long COVID, the effects of brain long COVID on the brain, and how we can change that. But we've already seen that firsthand, personally, anecdotally, uh already. But now we need to have the some of some more proof because people um some people will just look at Evan and say, Hey, it got rid of the pain in your shoulder. I want to use it for my shoulder. That's all they need. They and and you get somebody in the medical profession and they'll say, uh, give me 10 studies that shows it helps with uh with uh getting rid of pain in the shoulder. And uh, you know, and um, you know, we got people using it for their eyes, eyesight, and you know, um the skepticism there. But hey, when you can take right now, we got three people that were totally blind that see, um, and they, you know, one was diabetic retinopathy that uh was a whole uh three years that was total blindness, you know. So these kinds of things. Uh another one was uh 95-year-old with just retinopathy, but totally blind and now sees. And we got another woman that's got diabetic retinopathy, and she could only read the top line of the chart, the big E. And she couldn't even read that. She had a problem reading that, and now she's reading five lines lower on the on the eye chart.
SPEAKER_03:And also to actually almost sound like a miracle. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:I think we're working in the miracles. I won't discount that. I think we're working in some miracle space here because who am I to come up with? Who am I, Evan, to come up with this stuff? Like I just I'm very glad that I can be a tool to bring healing to a lot of people, and we hope that it's healing around healing of the nations, is what we're looking at trying to accomplish here.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. So it sounds like both you, Tom and Heyman, you were both somewhat skeptical initially of the whole idea of the light therapy. So the question to either of you or both what is the most common misconception you hear from people that are new to light therapy?
SPEAKER_00:Heyman. Okay, yeah, all right. Uh yeah, I guess the common misconception is uh that can't can't work. How is that supposed to work? Or how is that how is light gonna penetrate with any depth? Uh, you know, and uh so those are the common ones. And I think um, you know, it's um some people that are really looking at uh their own health uh in the wellness space, trying to get better on their own, they're probably the easiest, the easiest ones to bel to take the step to to believe and try and see it work. It's those that are you know limping and saying, How's that supposed to help me for my limp? And then they keep continue, you know. I even had um you you mentioned double e um uh in your background, but I even had uh uh very well off uh businessman who uh came down. Uh he was having a trouble uh remembering things, and so he put the uh anyways. I put the helmet on him and he says, I don't see how this is supposed to help. You know, I I'm not remembering things well, you know, but so that's just been happening recent more recently. Six months later, he was diagnosed with dementia, and uh he his my my good friend loaned him his helmet to for him to use, this guy, and he started using it. He's he's journaling every day. He says, Wow, I he can't believe how much improvement he's had in his in his cognitive ability. And now my buddy says, I I'm gonna tell him he's gotta buy his own light, his own helmet.
SPEAKER_02:And so hey, and the hardest part is also competing, right? Tom, the hardest part is also competing against all these other red light products out there. The market's flooded right now with red light products, but the problem is most of them are so underpowered and they don't get the the actual effect you're supposed to get. And so patients like people actually you know, desperate. A lot of people are desperate for solutions. They go try these out and they have this negative perception that, oh, I tried it, it doesn't work. Yeah, right? Yeah, and they're gonna try it. And then all it takes is just them going under Tom, one of Tom's products, and they realize, whoa, this is totally different. I've had people who've used like some of the most expensive uh beds, like$200,000 beds, right? Uh these are the red light beds. They would try that, and then they would actually try Tom's mini canopy, and they will go, this is totally different. I feel this. That one I don't feel, right? And the his mini canopy is only$5,900. Um, and also to the earlier point, uh, to your viewers, like the business uh focused viewers, the uh dry AMD, dry age-related macro degeneration, it's an eye condition that actually has been clinically proven to be treatable with red light. And there was a company that was bought by Alcon for$500 million just for doing red light in the eyes. And that was a very low-powered red light. And Tom's drive is take the palm device and do the same thing, right, with the evidence. We could do the same thing with his palm, 30 seconds, 30 seconds, and you get the same effect. And his device is only$1,300. And this company that got bought over is$500 million worth now. It's like Alcon owns them. So it's it's it's there. The technology is being realized and um the market's opening up, but unfortunately, the misconception is that there's so many devices out there that are so underpowered that people don't really get to feel the real effects, just like food, right? A lot of people don't know what real good, maybe you know, food certain foods are because they're used to all these fast food chains, right? And so they actually think that that fast food chain is what food is supposed to taste like. When in fact, if they go to a mom and pop shop, right, that makes the real genuine food, and it's not that expensive, they actually get to experience that real good food. And that's what this is real, pure, good photobiomodulation like that made my son time.
SPEAKER_04:Fantastic.
SPEAKER_03:Well, as really um yeah, Heyman, as we look ahead a few years, um, where do you see the photobiomodulation uh becoming truly mainstream? Clinic, home, sports settings, or something else entirely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I think it's all of the above. Um uh basically uh there are different grades as well, because we have to be also cautious that some of the red light, like we we know that red light so far, from what we know, is that it does not cause harm. Like we haven't seen any harm because it's uh it's been studied for a while. But then again, that being said, we still have to be careful because what we have realized in our studies so far is that sometimes even like some people use frequencies, like with light, you could pulse it. And for some brains, sometimes pulsing may not be adequate. So for that case is so certain situations where you have situations like epilepsy or uh mood disorders, it's better to have it in a clinic setting where they actually are can be assessed and then prescribed the proper light. But for most other conditions like muscle, spleetal, uh everything else, it should be such a simple thing. You just pick it off the shelf and do it. Like in France, for instance, or Europe, you could actually buy nasal devices, like whenever you get sinus infections, that you get this little nasal cannula with red light in it, you just pop it in, it's 20 euros. You go to any pharmacy you could buy it, pop it in your nose, and it actually clears up your sinuses. That does it, we know it. We know it does. All you do is take the palm or light and put it over your face, and it just clears up your sinuses, just like what Tom's doing there. It's amazing. So it's making it into the market and hair treatments. You know, we've seen it, facial treatments, it works. But again, it's a time, right? It's a time that you use these devices. Most of these devices you need to wear for 30 minutes twice a day, and for several days to even see an effect. For instance, for like with Sunpower LED, the power is so much that you could just get the same effect within a few minutes. And you get on with your life, right?
SPEAKER_04:That is amazing. And we can't wait to try the device. You've been kind enough to send us one for our own personal uh consumption friends, family. So we're gonna report back on our our uh our own little clinical study at home. But uh before that, just final words, Tom. Um on a personal note. I I know you're a very religious person. Um I'm not very religious, but I do know that do know that Jesus was a healer. Um is that is that part of your inspiration uh as far as getting this out in the world?
SPEAKER_00:I would say because he was able to uh heal the blind and and uh the lame and the mute, um, and we uh and uh um you know those that have epilepsy, and we've been able to see some of those beautiful things happen as well. Um so one person couldn't speak uh at all for two months, and they ran through every test they could figure. They started using the light, and then they started uh well, they got their full speech back. And we've got like in autism, when you can have a um a young, a young boy say mama for the first time because he couldn't before, uh, those are pretty major things, and it's a lot of fun, uh uh enjoy a lot of enjoyment to see people um get better, and we hear about it uh from around the world um now. And uh the biggest thing right now is uh um Evan, uh for we are looking at a raise. Uh I've not needed a raise ever. We're cash we're cash positive, everything is going very, very well. Uh, but it's a time that we're looking at um we've not had investment, every all the investment is everything I could pouring back into the company and and uh running on a shoestring, but now things are really growing um to the point where um different places want studies to to happen. And so we're looking at like a$10 million raise to help us to um get this um stuff documented and proven in a real study format, a good study format, um, that uh shows that for different so we can actually say this helmet can treat autism, or this helmet can treat um you know um uh epilepsy, or this helmet can help uh help with uh Parkinson's. We've seen the anecdotal information and and a fair amount of it. We're not scared to to uh even try it on anybody, just like Haman did when you he just showed you right then and there, because it's safe, it's very, very safe. And at the same time, we I don't know, Heyman. I think every time we do it, we expect results, sometimes even on the spot, you know, like uh you know, with pain in in the shoulder or hip or you know, um a neurosurgeon that I'm working with right now, he says, Is it a placebo effect? But I put the light on my thumb and the pain went away in a couple minutes. Like he says, that's crazy. That's that's what I would expect.
SPEAKER_04:Well, Irma and I may need to uh open our own uh clinic uh in Boston just for our friends, family, and and followers here on social media. But that's another topic. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. I think there'll be a lot more information and discussion to come. But uh, I think for now we just say thank you. And for everyone listening, you know, uh check out Sunpower LED and check out their products and solutions and do some research on this incredible new, not not so new uh technology in the red light uh spectrum. Thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for put putting this on. Thank you very much. Of course.