Dr. Charles Branham on Black History: Brilliance, Resistance, and Agency

In this episode of the Teachers Forum, David sits down with esteemed educator and historian, Dr. Charles Branham to discuss Black History Month 2025. The also discuss the ongoing backlash against African-American advancements, particularly in the context of Black History Month. He explores historical patterns of resistance to African-American progress, the impact of Donald Trump's presidency, and the potential for a constitutional crisis. The conversation also delves into the global context of change, the importance of agency and empowerment within the African-American community, and the historical journey of Black education. This conversation explores the evolution of African American education, the decline of Black educators, and the impact of integration on the community. It emphasizes the importance of reframing African American history to highlight resilience and resistance, rather than solely focusing on oppression. The discussion also touches on the role of Black teachers in improving educational outcomes and the need for vigilance in preserving African American history amidst contemporary challenges.

Books mentioned in the Podcast:f

From Slavery to Freedom by John Hope Franklin

Before the Mayflower by Lerone Bennett, Jr.

They Came Before Columbus by Ivan Van Sertima

Join the Conversation:

• david@theteachersforum.org
• @theteachersforum.bsky.social
• X (formerly Twitter) @theforum1993

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Transcript

David Harris (00:10.99)
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Teachers Forum, a podcast dedicated to giving educators a voice. This episode is a special episode for Black History Month 2025 and we are all without a doubt in challenging times. So I wanted to have someone on that we could discuss these issues around black history and the backlash that's happening. Our guest today is Dr. Charles Branham.

Charles and I worked together for many years at the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools, and I consider him not only a colleague, but also a friend. Dr. Branham is a historian and educator specializing in African-American history and politics. Born in Chicago in 1945, he graduated from Phi Beta Kappa from Rockford College and earned his PhD from the University of Chicago as a Ford Foundation Fellow.

He has taught history at institutions including the University of Illinois at Chicago, Northwestern University, and Indiana University Northwest, earning a Silver Circle Excellence in Teaching Award. Charles has been a historian at the DuSable Museum of African American History in Chicago since 1984, serving as director of education and later as senior historian. He's authored numerous works on Black political leadership and served as a consultant

for the Chicago Board of Education's Black History Curriculum. His contributions extend beyond academia. He won an Emmy as writer, co-producer, and host of The Black Experience, the first nationally televised series on African-American history. He's also played a key role in legal cases advancing black political representation and minority business affirmative action in Chicago. He served on many, many boards.

and remains a prominent voice in historical scholarship and advocacy. Dr. Branham, Charles, thank you so much for being on the show.

Charles Branham (02:08.19)
Thank you for having me.

David Harris (02:10.262)
It's really an honor, very excited. We've got a lot, a lot of times I ask people to go through their educational background. I think I just did that. So much is going on, let's get right on into it. So I think one of the first questions that we've been talking a little bit before we even got on was this backlash against black history, critical race theory, DEI now has become the new--

I would almost say the new N word, but it certainly is a dog whistle. Many of my colleagues and educators around the country are just in a whiplash and I can tell you people are feeling down and so forth. So what I was going to ask you, Charles, what is happening? Should we be surprised? Is this just par for the course? What do you think?

Charles Branham (03:01.061)
Well, I don't think we should be surprised. But it's not power for the course. So first, pushback, I think you used the appropriate term backlash, against African-American advancements has been going on at least since Brown versus Board of Education. That was the touchstone, of course. Then secondly, of course, you have the enforcement

of civil rights, interestingly enough under the Nixon administration, and you have that backlash moving nationwide, not just simply in the South. Third, you began to have a concerted effort to roll back affirmative action going all the way back to the Reagan administration. What is different, what has significantly changed, is one, that the nation itself has moved

It's moved right on issues that haven't specifically to do with African American history, but African American history has been rolled into the rightward shift of the American populace. And anti-immigration is probably front and center in terms of that rightward shift. And this is not just simply happening in this country. It's happened basically throughout European nations. So this is a worldwide phenomenon.

Nations are becoming more nationalistic, nations are becoming more fundamental in their religious and political philosophies, nations are becoming more anti-immigrant and more hostile to the idea of diversity. Now you add to that, that Donald Trump doesn't have, at least right now, doesn't have the right to a second term. He's been president once.

He didn't know anything about being president. He didn't have any political experience. He listened to his advisors who were conventional conservatives. Now he's been reelected to a second and final term. And he is determined to do what Richard Nixon only threatened to do after he was reelected in a landslide. And that is use all

Charles Branham (05:21.359)
the levers of power to make fundamental change in American government. So to answer your question very briefly, you have historical trends which have been opposed to African-American advancement, which have been basically tipping around the periphery of this struggle, having minor victories, but not really feeling as emboldened as they are too, because there's a national

right work and an international right work shift. So that gives them cover. And three, you have a man who basically we were doing the Maya Angelou thing. You know, if somebody tells you who they are, believe them. Donald Trump told you what he was going to do. And he filled himself. He surrounded himself with individuals who are not just simply conservative. Conservative is Ronald Reagan. No, he's filled himself with proto-nationalists, right wing, pseudo

white supremacists. And that is not an exaggeration. And so these people, one, are going to profit from American opposition to immigration. But two, they're going to use this as an opportunity to roll back any African-American advancement. You now have the new vision, which is that the most oppressed minority in American history are white males.

And two, that any attempt to examine the African-American experience, any attempt to address problems that African-Americans encounter, any attempt to speak against white supremacy or racial injustice is indeed an act of oppression against white America.

David Harris (07:13.912)
So let me ask you this, is this just, and you may have already answered, is it just a continuous thing or do you see a particular moment that caused this type of backlash? Is it George Floyd, 2020?

Charles Branham (07:29.167)
No, it's not continuous. It goes with starts and stops, but the dialectic has been sped up by the election of Donald Trump. And if you want a critical event, the critical event is the election of Donald Trump.

David Harris (07:46.35)
2016 or 2020? I mean, excuse me 2020 2025 2024. That's what I meant, right?

Charles Branham (07:48.423)
2024, 2024, he did not use, because he didn't know what the levels, levers of power were. He didn't have this vision of a unified executive where basically all power flows from the executive branch. And most importantly, he hadn't collected around himself as he has now a coterie of sycophants.

who are going to encourage his most nefarious schemes.

David Harris (08:26.478)
So let me ask you this and I'm sure audience may have heard it.

Do you think then all of this leads us to some sort of constitutional crisis?

Charles Branham (08:37.637)
Well, I think it does, but the point is we cannot be sure that the Supreme Court will play any major role in limiting Donald Trump's most more aggressive policies. Now, I do think, for example, that he's probably not going to be able to completely disassemble the Department of Education. But.

The Supreme Court might give him the power to so underfund the Department of Education that its actions and policies are meaningless. Similarly, I don't believe that Donald Trump is going to be able to end birthright citizenship. I'm not sure that the Supreme Court is willing to go that far to reinterpret the 14th Amendment in a way to

end birthright citizenship, but he certainly may be given the power to very aggressively export undocumented immigrants into this country. He certainly may be given the power to underfund or unfund programs that he feels aren't to his liking, and most importantly,

I'm not convinced that the Supreme Court will do anything to protect civil service from a wholesale culling by Donald Trump so that he can insert his supporters, his acolytes, his sycophants into the permanent government administration.

David Harris (10:29.198)
Right, so we don't know the, and then there's been, right, and then there's a discussion about whether or not.

Charles Branham (10:30.631)
Into the bureaucracy, yeah.

David Harris (10:36.77)
he would obey the court, right? There's that famous line by Andrew Jackson, the just chief justice can make anything he wants to do. Now let him enforce it.

Charles Branham (10:46.075)
John Marshall's made his law, let him enforce it. Yes, you're absolutely right. Yes. And that is another question, but right now we're a long way from that because first the Supreme Court will have to take up some cases that he considers important. Then he will see if he can get around the decisions of the Supreme Court if they're not entirely to his liking. But

David Harris (10:49.696)
I'm enforcing, right?

Charles Branham (11:14.243)
If they make a decision which undermines his central goals, then you're absolutely right. We may come to a point where, remember, Andrew Jackson is Donald Trump's hero. Before Donald Trump fell in love with William McKinley, he was in love with Andrew Jackson and sees himself as a Jacksonian politician. And the central thesis is,

David Harris (11:29.217)
Exactly. Yes. Yes. He said.

Charles Branham (11:43.323)
that the President of States is the only office that all Americans vote for. All Americans don't vote for the United States Senate, they vote for their senator. No American votes for the Supreme Court. So under this concept, this very interesting conservative concept of the unitary executive, he now is convinced that he has powers that no other American president has ever asserted.

David Harris (11:53.838)
Right exactly, yes.

Charles Branham (12:13.741)
Even if Richard Nixon, who basically argued if the president says it's legal, it's legal. He said that in the famous Frost interviews. If Richard Nixon really thought that he could get away with that, he would have gotten away with it. If Richard Nixon had had Fox News, he might still have been president. Donald Trump is going to assert that he is the law.

David Harris (12:35.022)
Mmm.

Charles Branham (12:43.511)
And he has a Fox News to back him.

David Harris (12:47.118)
Exactly. think there's so much, because of course we want to pivot back to black history, but I want to stay this a little bit longer. You know, where we are right now as a country, and then you, I love the way you put it in that global context, is, and I was reading Fareed Zakaria's book, which is called Age of Revolution, and his contention, Charles, yeah, his contention is that there's so much change. Number one, this isn't necessarily.

Charles Branham (13:09.017)
I have the book.

David Harris (13:14.538)
knew what is happening but there's so much change going on in the world right now and people are grasping for that.

Charles Branham (13:20.209)
Well, let's just itemize the big three or four. One is that American isolationism ended basically around the beginning of the 20th century and Americans didn't notice because we emerged from World War II totally victorious. But we are increasingly globalized and that is scary because American exceptionalism depends upon a certain degree of difference between America and everybody else. Two.

David Harris (13:24.856)
Okay.

David Harris (13:39.49)
Exactly.

Charles Branham (13:48.781)
America itself, its population is becoming more diversified. Americans are scared to death that white Americans won't be an absolute majority. Three.

David Harris (14:00.064)
Well, that's already happened if you look at the percentage or if you look at the demographic breakdown of let's say the kindergartners that were born even three or four years ago, kids that were born. It is very diverse. All right.

Charles Branham (14:11.427)
Right, Look, just look at a public school anywhere in America and you see the change. Three.

David Harris (14:18.794)
Exactly. And, and let me just say this, what's interesting Charles is when the media talks about, let's say white parents is very interesting or they talk about parents. They're oftentimes talking about white parents, but the majority of parents in the United States are black and brown, which is always an interesting kind of thing when the media talks about the parent backlash against, say critical race theory.

Charles Branham (14:33.647)
Right. Exactly.

Charles Branham (14:40.965)
Yeah, but let's go to three and four. Three is very obviously the diminishing of the American middle class. And you have increasingly the new Gilded Age. And I mean, this is an extraordinary Gilded Age because you saw the titans of corporate America, the titans of the internet and the titans of AI sitting behind Donald Trump when he's sworn in as president. This is unprecedented.

David Harris (14:42.636)
Okay, listen, sorry, broken.

Charles Branham (15:08.677)
I mean, you didn't have John D. Rockefeller sitting behind Theodore Roosevelt or sitting behind William McKinley or even sitting behind Warren G. Harding when they were sworn in. And then of course, you have the new technologies. So the new technologies essentially mean that you cannot trust any information. So we live in an age in which basically virtually every lie

You know, what is the old cliche? know, a lie can get around the world before the truth gets up and puts its pants on. So basically, there are more mechanisms for disinformation and with the introduction of AI, those who have the power over the media have increased power in terms of the shaping of public opinion. Okay, so that's it. Those are my big four and my big four is certainly subject to somebody else's

David Harris (15:43.997)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (16:01.966)
That was a big four.

Charles Branham (16:10.321)
criticism.

David Harris (16:11.136)
Right, so let's take that one, which will lead us of course, as we talk about Black History Month, Black History and so forth, is this diversification of America and this wholesale, what I would say, attack on Black History. Are there parallels in the past to this type of backlash, particularly on Black History and critical race theory or these kinds of things, or is this something unique?

Charles Branham (16:19.803)
Eheh.

Charles Branham (16:38.247)
Well, you know what I've been doing for 50 years? Teaching black history. So yes, and it is a 1864 headline in a black newspaper out of New Orleans. And the headline reads, revolutions go backwards. And so we've seen throughout our history.

David Harris (16:40.489)
I do so, I certainly do.

Charles Branham (17:05.521)
There was a period of time during the aftermath of the American Revolution when African Americans were granted the right to vote in northern states. And one by one, all of those northern states, with the exception of Massachusetts, rescinded the right to vote for African Americans. In the aftermath of the American Civil War, had African Americans with an opportunity to enter American politics, and we had the development

first public school system in the South, one of the gifts of Reconstruction as W.B. Du Bois would say. And by the end of the century, African Americans had been virtually excluded from Southern politics and African American education was separate and unequal. I grew up in the South, so I know a little bit about that. African Americans made advancements during the war years of the First World War and the Second

David Harris (17:38.67)
Right?

Charles Branham (18:04.611)
And in each instance, there were reactions. The reaction after First World War, of course, was the Red Summer of 1919 and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s. In the aftermath of World War II, the Red Scare and McCarthyism devastated African American leadership, and one had to have a movement away from African American...

involvement and recruitment into organized labor. You had in the aftermath of Dr. King and the successes of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 64,

Voting Rights Act of 65, the Open Housing Act of 68. As a response to that, you had the Goldwater movement, which moved the Republican Party south, and Southern leadership was critically important to the election of Ronald Reagan, and you had a movement for conservatism on the local level with...

David Harris (19:00.568)
Right, right.

Charles Branham (19:10.523)
billionaires pouring millions of dollars into local races so that the Republican Party had a resurgence on the state level in state legislatures because basically it's easier to buy a state senator than it is to buy a United States senator. And so you've had these periods of reaction against virtually every instance of African American advance. And certainly, if you look at popular culture today,

African Americans have a presence that they've never had in any other period in history. And so there's going to be a reaction against there is going to be the assumption that African American advance is at the expense of somebody else that there is a infinite, there's a finite pie. And if African Americans get a bigger slice than somebody else is getting a smaller slice. And so, yes, this is not new.

David Harris (19:43.864)
exactly, yeah.

Charles Branham (20:08.455)
African Americans have more resources than they had in 1890 in the South. They have more resources than they had in the aftermath of the Second World War. But revolutions go backwards, and the price of liberty is constant vigilance.

David Harris (20:31.598)
Let me ask you this. Do you think, and I just told you I was listening to a podcast and, and, um, historian was saying that we bought into.

the idea of really inclusion when it really, really wasn't happening. So, I'm coming a little younger than you and older probably than many of our guests, but I was born the month of the Freedom Rides and I was raised in the shadow that things were really changing, that the world was, that we were making these enormous strides and...

Charles Branham (20:57.116)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (21:08.27)
You know, by the time I get to go to college or so forth, it seems like this black middle class had grown. It was burgeoning and we were on this steady march forward.

Was I wrong in thinking that? Because sometimes I think I am.

Charles Branham (21:23.247)
No, no, you weren't wrong, but we must remember that the key to African-American struggle, the key to the African-American struggle is agency, perseverance, and empowerment. Agency, perseverance, empowerment. There are actually three different things. One, of course, is that African-Americans have to take a leadership role in the direction of their own communities. We have to listen.

David Harris (21:37.006)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (21:50.513)
to first voice when we're writing African American history. We have to listen to first voice when we're creating African American institutions. We have to listen again to what African Americans themselves want and say and think and are debating and are disagreeing about and seek to have in their own lives in order to create a vision for African American improvement. Secondly, there has to be perseverance.

You cannot get up in the morning and go, well, I've got it. So I don't care about anybody else. Or you can't get up in the morning and say, woe is me. Everything is going the wrong way. And so I'll do nothing because I have no power. Rather, the struggle of the lesson of our history.

David Harris (22:18.894)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (22:38.713)
is that African Americans have always said no, African Americans have always organized, African Americans have always persevered, African Americans have faced setbacks because setbacks are a feature of our lives, but they've overcome them. Finally, empowerment. And that is that African Americans need to constantly keep their eye on the prize, and the prize is resources to create a better life for the next generation.

That means building institutions. That means acquiring wealth. That means the ability to share in that wealth in terms of empowering the rest of the community. That means a broader vision in terms of how African Americans can use the resources that they have to build a better future. I'm thinking right now of Madeleine Stratton Morris. Do you know that name?

David Harris (23:35.799)
No I don't.

Charles Branham (23:36.697)
Madeline Stratton Morris built the first African American curriculum for public education. You know when she did it? 1942. So what we're talking about is the legacy, of course, of somebody that everybody on this podcast knows, and that's Carter G. Woodson. And Carter G. Woodson, of course, came to Chicago and organized the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History. And what did that association do? Well, first, it began to create

David Harris (23:54.942)
yes.

Charles Branham (24:06.471)
information from black parents to give to their children about African American history. Then it began to create resources for black teachers so that black teachers had resources and information to learn about African American history. Then it created a journal for publication of research in African American history. Then it created the Journal of Negro History. And then finally, it institutionalized that struggle in what? Black history.

David Harris (24:36.27)
This is where my thread is at.

Charles Branham (24:36.369)
What are we celebrating this month? Black History Month. So we're talking about step by step. We're talking about a public school teacher in Chicago, a elementary school teacher in Chicago in 1942 who had no grants, who had nobody in administration encouraging her, who had no help from the Chicago Board of Education. Because remember, it was a law.

during the civil war that black children and white children couldn't go to school. forget that racial segregation by law began in the north before it happened in the south. So we're talking about people who did for self. And of course, that's important because you've got African-American access to Black History Month and you've got African-American museums. And of course, I have devoted my life and been a part of.

David Harris (25:08.654)
Right.

Charles Branham (25:32.615)
one of the most important the first independent african-american museum in the country the disable museum of african-american history we've got african-american culture for the first time being exploited explored in movies and t v and we've got dot to skip gates with all the programs on pbs and we've got the internet with and i i get information african-american history on face book

I get information on African American history in emails from major white institutions and I'll just go through and say, oh, is there anything about black people in here? Oh yeah, I found something about black people. I'll make a copy of that on my phone. Then maybe I'll print it out. But I'm learning something new about us, about the African American experience, about great African American inventors and creators and writers and scientists.

that I did not know, and I've been studying this for a long time, but I'm learning something new every day. And I'm doing this as a lifelong passion, which is what history should be. It shouldn't simply be learning a bunch of facts and having no context for those facts. It should be a lifelong passion to create a narrative for the life of a people who have been resilient

David Harris (26:47.552)
Right.

Charles Branham (26:59.417)
in the face of oppression and have done for self. Who've created institutions, who've created culture, who've created music and life and joy and love and all of the things that have sustained us lo these many years.

David Harris (27:08.12)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (27:15.99)
You bring out something that's really interesting and as you were talking, I was thinking during that time of segregation, during the time when African-Americans, my parents in Chicago and Morgan Park neighborhood, when I would hear them talk about this community and they knew all these people, I remember going to my aunt's funeral and my uncle calls me over, I think his name was Bob Williams, who was the

owner of the Undertaker and my uncle says, Bob, you remember this is Deborah Billy's boy. And I'm like, they know the Undertaker too? There's this, was like, my God. But the community was such that it seemed, because of segregation, kept everyone in this kind, I don't want to say a box or in this close, these close knit communities, whether it's the South side of Chicago, whether it's Harlem, whether it's here in Charlotte in the second ward or wherever.

Charles Branham (27:51.729)
Hahaha!

David Harris (28:13.25)
that seems to be have been dissipated. Is it because of integration? Is it because people now see themselves as maybe not part of this larger community? Because what you say is so true, but could we, know, that agency and so forth, a lot of times I don't see it. I see African-Americans questioning certain things. I'll give you a brief example. There's been,

Charles Branham (28:34.853)
Yeah, no, I-

David Harris (28:42.742)
a big deal with the National Association of Independent Schools People of Color Conference. There was a big thing about anti-Semitism. It's been all in the news and so forth. My suggestion to some folk is that folks of color in independent schools start our own organization and become a 501c3 and have our own conference, separate and apart from that. We can do that. But you'd be surprised, Charles, how many people say, we can't do

You know, no, nobody's gonna come. Good luck with that. And I'm thinking just like everything you just said, I can hear my mother's voice saying, black folk in the 1930s and 40s in the midst of depression could create institutions and colleges. And yet here we are folks saying how we can't do that. And sometimes I'm baffled as to why that is.

Charles Branham (29:33.447)
Well, look, the short answer, and I know that we've got a lot to deal with, but the short answer is that you're right. That there has been, and this is not unique to African Americans. This is important to keep in mind. This is America bowling alone. The rise of isolation, the rise of loneliness,

David Harris (29:54.254)
Exactly. Yes. I heard the author.

Charles Branham (30:02.779)
the rise of people who've never had a date. I don't know. There was a time when I was a young man, newly arrived in Chicago, I could go to four or five parties in a night. You'd spend time in somebody's house eating their food, drinking their booze, you had no idea who they were. And you were dancing until the sun came up. There was a time when African Americans

went to church and where they had their character framed and built and encouraged and shaped by older people in the church who would just simply say, you're gonna be somebody. Or giving you applause when you did a solo in the church choir. And you are afraid now.

that whether it's the Boy Scouts or whether it's your local church or whether it's going to a funeral, that somebody might start shooting somebody and that some fight might break out. And of course people don't know how to fight anymore, so they basically carry weapons. And so that there's a great deal of fear. And so you also have...

more and more African Americans moving to the suburbs. And that is, in point of fact, not a bad thing. That is simply the reality of African American life, where younger people especially are taking advantage of opportunities that were not available to people of my generation. But what you have now is the ability to create new institutions.

And what you need is the leadership to create those institutions. Now some of those institutions may be virtual.

Charles Branham (32:08.529)
but all of them can't be virtual. You have to find new ways for people to meet face to face. You have to find new opportunities for African-Americans to talk to each other. You have to find forums for African-Americans to get information so that they can debate the African-American future reasonably, dispassionately, thoughtfully.

and not as a outgrowth of their egos. This is not asking too much. We're talking about a people who came here in chains. This is not asking too much of black people.

David Harris (32:48.674)
Do think we also need

Do you think we also need to do cross-cultural as well? Multi-ethnic, multi-cultural.

Charles Branham (32:55.693)
I think you always need to look, you're living in a world that's becoming increasingly diversified. I don't know of any society in the history of the world that has isolated itself from others. And China, of course, was the perfect example of a society that tried. And Japan tried as well. That did not ultimately need to yield, not to simply was forced to yield, but needed to yield to the currents of commerce and worldwide education.

Anybody in science and math will tell you right now that the Nobel Prize isn't being awarded anymore to one person, it's being awarded to teams. And these teams may be international teams. So yes, travel broadens one. Being aware of, being friends with, interacting with, learning from other people is good. I'm never going to suggest that isolation is a good idea.

David Harris (33:57.166)
Let's pivot a little, same kind of thread, and talk a little bit about black education in all of this. So certainly, there's these book bands and all this backlash against critical race theory. But despite all that, know black people find ways to educate themselves, clandestine schools, HBCUs, and all of that.

Charles Branham (33:59.793)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (34:23.032)
Can you kind of maybe just talk a little bit about that historical journey through the lens of education?

Charles Branham (34:32.815)
Well, okay, I'm going to do it briefly because I remember when we first started talking about this, I thought we were going to be talking about something quite different. I thought we were going to be talking about the history of African-American education. So I'm reading all this stuff and I'm thinking to myself, you know, that's, I'm not so sure that you can actually create an arc for African-American history. African-American education, it's a constant struggle.

David Harris (34:52.27)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (34:57.873)
I mean, African Americans have been trying to create institutions for themselves to teach themselves long before the Civil War. You've got what, 107 historically black colleges and universities in this country. You've got African Americans participating. There were 14,000 school boards in this country. And as you said before, the majority of parents are people of color.

They're black and Hispanic, primarily, and increasingly Asian. And it seems to me that in terms of the history of African-Americans in education, I would emphasize three things. One, course, is African-Americans educated themselves as a defensive mechanism.

That is to say, they needed to figure out how to keep from getting whipped. And they needed to read the Bible so that they could see if it said what the white man said it said. If you look at Freedmen camps during and immediately after the Civil War, they were filled with African Americans of every age desperate to learn to read. Now,

The next thing, of course, is the development of resources for African-Americans, because that's where African-Americans were. 90 % of African-Americans lived in the South. So white people were not interested in educating black people. They weren't interested in them being literate during slavery. Why would they all of a sudden become enlightened and say, well, we need an educated black workforce? No.

They wanted to make sure that African-Americans were available to pick cotton. And they wanted to make sure African-Americans did not have an educated leadership class. In fact, one of the things I find interesting are the number of African-Americans who got education in the North and were funded by Southern states. Southern states would pay Black people who were smart to leave the state.

David Harris (37:16.728)
Mmm. Wow.

Charles Branham (37:17.413)
I know you find that funny, but that is absolutely true.

The creation of African American education has largely been a byproduct of African American initiative itself. mean, the Rosenwald schools are very important and Julius Rosenwald is certainly to be honored. But the reality is that most African American schools were built and funded by African Americans themselves because African Americans were largely rural people. And so I'm proud.

that my sister, my late sister Carol had discovered that my great, great, great, great grandfather left money for the first school for African Americans in a Northwest County in Georgia in the 1880s. I come from five generations of Baptist ministers. So the relationship between the...

Black church and the development of public education is very, very close. And so when Booker G. Washington comes up with Tuskegee Institute, basically he goes to the Baptist. He says, well, this is going to be a great Baptist college for your children. Didn't go to the AMEs. This is going to be a great, and nobody knew that it was going to be a non-denominational college, but you had to play that game. The thing to keep in mind is,

David Harris (38:34.99)
Mm-hmm.

Charles Branham (38:55.527)
that as we get into the 1950s and 60s, and this is one of questions you raised, because it's no secret that we actually talk, that I do always found interesting is the decline of African Americans as teachers, the decline of African Americans as educators. there's a wonderful research article by a guy named Owen Thompson from Williams College.

David Harris (39:14.624)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (39:18.04)
Bye.

Charles Branham (39:24.839)
And what he found is basically that almost half of African Americans with any education became teachers in the South, and generally most around the country, but specifically in the South, up through the 1950s. And of course, many of those teachers, and this is not something that he's talked about,

David Harris (39:41.784)
Right?

Charles Branham (39:52.017)
There's something that I think I always find interesting. Many of these teachers were very concerned about racial integration because they kind of knew what was going to happen. And what was going to happen is that when Brown v. Board of Education came down, the South pretty much ignored it. 10 years after Brown v. Board of Education, only like 5 % of blacks in the South were going to schools with whites.

95 % of them were still in segregated schools. I remember because I was one of them. But, around the early 1970s, that began to change and there began to be a real significant pressure for integration. And one of the byproducts between the late 60s and early 70s is that somewhere around, I'd say, well, I actually wrote the figure down somewhere, somewhere between 16,000 and.

34,000 African American teachers were fired. So you consolidate the schools. You bust the black children to the schools. All the teachers are white. The black principal of the other school becomes a custodian. He's sweeping floors now in the white school. And the black teachers are fired.

David Harris (40:54.157)
Right, yeah.

David Harris (41:15.416)
Bye.

Charles Branham (41:15.973)
Now part of this was that they changed the educational standards. remember that my mother had a college education. Her older sister, who was basically the leader of the family because her mother died when she was 12 and so I basically was not only her sister but basically her second mother. She was a very successful public school teacher but she didn't have a college education. So what you have is

African Americans who didn't have the educational credentials but who were teaching in public schools were African Americans who had the credentials but who weren't being able to pass the new tests or somehow they found ways to get rid of them.

So it wasn't simply that new opportunities opened up for African Americans and they said, well, teaching doesn't pay as much as I'd like and maybe I'll now become an engineer. I would love to have thought that that was the story that African American employment patterns diversified significantly and opportunities opened up and incomes for African Americans with college education dramatically increased, but that's simply not the case. African American integration.

David Harris (42:04.738)
Yeah.

David Harris (42:20.813)
No.

Charles Branham (42:33.191)
was one of the byproducts of integration was the marginalization of some African Americans and the total firing, the total exclusion of most.

David Harris (42:46.604)
So I've got to ask this, of course, and I'm going to also liken it to the Negro leagues in some way, but.

There was a desire amongst African-Americans for integration. Certainly as I study, we've studied and talked about in the past, the civil rights movement, the sit-ins and all of that. Was that, do you think, the wrong view?

Charles Branham (43:16.039)
No, because if you look at the test scores of African Americans who were born in the 1950s and African Americans who were born in the 1980s, the test scores of African Americans went up about 40%. There was significant, I'm significant, to greater educational resources. But then it stopped.

David Harris (43:30.316)
And you're attributing that to some integration resources.

David Harris (43:40.664)
Yeah, I've read that, you know.

Charles Branham (43:40.909)
And this is something that nobody seems to have either provided an excellent answer to or in point of fact, I'm not even sure people have noticed that the significant jump in African-American test scores stopped, peaked somewhere around the 1980s. Yes, somewhere around the 1980s.

David Harris (44:00.491)
80s 70s? Yeah, I've read that. Yeah, I've read that.

Charles Branham (44:04.231)
And there has not been a continuing improvement, has not been a continuing closing of the gap between black performance and white performance. And nobody has exactly the correct answer to why. Or an answer as to how we can actually improve that.

David Harris (44:25.56)
So running through my mind is part of it, whether it is in the private schools that we taught in or whether you're in public schools, the numbers of black teachers have declined. There are studies that show that if a child has a black teacher, I forget the exact percentage, the likelihood of them going ahead and finish, going to, yes, yes, yeah, test scores.

Charles Branham (44:44.039)
5 % improvement in test scores. 5 % improvement in test scores. And you're absolutely right. If you look at the work that has been done by historically black colleges, they have a much higher rate of graduation, a much higher rate of African-American graduates going into professional schools than those who go to, say, public universities in...

David Harris (44:58.456)
Yes.

Charles Branham (45:13.607)
throughout the country. No, no, no, the presence of African Americans as mentors, as role models, and African Americans in terms of designing the curriculum that African Americans are exposed to makes a difference.

David Harris (45:14.818)
Yeah, I think, yeah.

David Harris (45:29.442)
Yeah, and it has been, the studies really bear that out. I mean, I think there is something to be said, and I've said this recently to a couple of our African American history classes at my school that integration comes with, there's a cost for black people. And I always use the example of the Negro Leagues. Yes, Jackie Robinson integrates.

Charles Branham (45:34.458)
Absolutely.

Charles Branham (45:48.902)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (45:56.406)
There's a movie, 42 is retired and all of that, but it meant the decline of one of the most successful black businesses with the Negro Leagues. They ended basically. think all of them, with the exception of Kansas City Monarchs, were owned by black people.

Charles Branham (46:11.685)
Yeah, and this is an interesting irony because you can debate both sides. On the other hand, the salaries of those African Americans brought out of the Negro leagues increased dramatically. So you're right. What you have is a constant struggle in terms of black entrepreneurship. That seems to be one of the principal targets for it. And just think about it in terms of hair products.

David Harris (46:19.502)
Well, yes, yes. Right.

Charles Branham (46:39.975)
in terms of fashion. If black people create something that will make money, then whites will find a way to either absorb it or most likely they'll find a way to copy it. And if you look at the recent four-part documentary on stacks, and of course this hit home for me because I went to school with Isaac Hayes, because I grew up in Memphis, because I remember all that music.

mother grew up with, who did the funky chicken? Rufus Thomas. Grew up with Rufus Thomas and of course her comic was always, well you know he really spoke quite well. He wasn't, he's not an ignorant clown like he appears to be. The point is that Columbia Records basically destroyed

Stacks because it was selling too many records. It was making millionaires out of too many black people. It was doing too well They could do the same job. They could make the money they could find black artists so why would they tolerate this kind of competition and so the history of African American entrepreneurship the history of African American Creativity the history of African American scholarship is always that it is vulnerable

to those with power who would either control it or sometimes distort it for their own financial gain.

David Harris (48:17.934)
And I think aside to that too is the co-optation of individuals or of like you said, what you said, let's co-opt this and make this part of our own. And we see that to some extent, I think with hip hop, right?

Charles Branham (48:34.373)
Well, yeah, hip hop is interesting, hip hop has one advantage in that it's hip hop seems to be entrepreneurial. And so you have hip hop artists who own something. And so let's hope more hip hop artists own something. But I got to ask myself the same thing. And that is, where are these hip hop artists' hospitals? Of course, let's not stop with hip hop artists. Where is Elon Musk's cancer wing? Where are all these b----?

David Harris (48:42.19)
Jay-Z, yeah, right, exactly.

David Harris (49:01.389)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (49:03.377)
billionaires who spend so much time on their yachts. What have they done? mean, Rockefeller gave away so much of his fortune. Andrew Carnegie, there's a Andrew Carnegie library in every city, every small town and Hamlet in America.

David Harris (49:23.926)
And you think of Rockefeller, you think of him and you think his wife Laura Spellman. That's why Spellman is named, was named after her. They were abolitionists, family he married into.

Charles Branham (49:24.39)
What are the-

Charles Branham (49:33.031)
Well, of course, he also helped fund the University of Chicago. the point is, where is the sense of common will for today's plutocrats?

David Harris (49:37.71)
Exactly.

David Harris (49:50.774)
Let's talk a little bit about educators, people in the classroom, of them listen to this podcast. There's an enormous amount of fear, Charles. People are afraid to say the wrong thing, they don't want to talk too much. Someone recently told me they were talking to some black teachers and they were saying, yeah, I teach about slavery. And the other teacher's like, really, you do? We don't want to talk about that.

Charles Branham (49:55.559)
Mm-hmm.

David Harris (50:17.09)
What do you say to those folks in the classroom in the trenches in this particular moment? What does history have to tell us? What do you have to tell us about how we face this moment?

Charles Branham (50:27.323)
Well, you know how my mind works. First thing is I've got three points. The second thing is I have to figure out what my three points are. So the first point I'm going to have to go with is you should never begin African-American history with slavery.

David Harris (50:42.414)
Hmm

Charles Branham (50:44.039)
The reality is that most people teach African American history, even if they're not teaching an African American history course, they teach African American history as two thin slices of American history. That is, they're not teaching about what African Americans are doing for themselves. They're not teaching about what African Americans are thinking. They're not teaching about what African Americans are debating. And you and I both know history is a debate.

So this idea that all black people agree at all times on every subject is a lie. And it has been a lie since African-Americans first stepped off the boat. But you do not begin African-American history with slavery because you do not want to begin African-American history and encourage shame, especially if they're African-American students in integrated classrooms. And you don't.

David Harris (51:17.803)
Mm-hmm.

Charles Branham (51:40.985)
interpret the civil rights movement with the giddy triumphalism that is so characteristic of so much of American history. Okay, we had a wonderful civil rights movement. Dr. King was a great person. Now everything has been, everything is all right and we're all happy again. So African-American issue must begin in Africa. African-American issue must begin with some context.

for the arrival of African Americans in the Western Hemisphere. African American history must talk about the diversity of African culture. African Americans must understand the creation of humanity in the Older Vi Gorge in Africa. African Americans must understand something about the importance of the trans-Saharan trade and Islam in terms of the development of West African kingdoms. African Americans must understand something about

David Harris (52:25.358)
Mm-hmm.

Charles Branham (52:38.033)
Congo culture and how that spread throughout Africa. They should have some idea of how big Africa is. They should have some idea about the geography of Africa. They should have some introduction to Africa before they even get to the slave trade. And I talk about the enslavement of Africans. Of course, you cannot ignore the enslavement of Africans, but you don't begin there because Africans have a history.

even in the Western Hemisphere, that is not a byproduct of the development of the Atlantic slave trade. Secondly, it's important to understand that there are always African American resistance to their condition, African American resistance to their enslavement, African American resistance to their marginalization and exclusion, African American resistance through genius, through creation.

even during the darkest times of enslavement. So there is an African-American history outside of slavery, and there's an African-American history within slavery that reflects the power, that reflects the genius, that reflects the resistance of African-Americans. Now, the next thing that I think is important is that African-Americans have to understand that

what African-Americans start to do for themselves, which means we have to understand the debates that African-Americans had, whether we're talking about the Black Convention movement of the 1830s and 40s, whether we're talking about the development of Black churches and Daniel Paine and the importance of education in terms of the AME church, or whether you're talking about the development of public education in the South and the opportunity, the lost opportunity, to build a

David Harris (54:16.544)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Charles Branham (54:33.703)
cross-class coalition with poor whites in the South, which was destroyed not simply by white supremacy, but by Northern cupidity. mean, Northern greed played a role. mean, they were very quick to say, well, we'll let you do whatever you want with black people. Let's just make sure that we can reunite the country quickly so that we can take advantages of those resources that you have.

David Harris (54:45.23)
Wait.

Charles Branham (55:03.355)
that create wealth. mean, basically, black people have been creating wealth for this country in one form or another since the first African American arrived. And the first African American arrived long before 1619.

David Harris (55:19.394)
I love what you talk about the resistance because I think so often we overlook that. It is not talked about enough. And all the different forms of resistance. And I'm still waiting Charles on my movie on Toussaint Louverture. I'm still waiting on that movie. I'm like, when is somebody gonna tell that story? just, it's too late.

Charles Branham (55:36.269)
Hahaha!

You know, one of my prized possessions is a hardback copy of Black Jacobins. And one of my prized experiences was going down to Jackson State and have an opportunity to meet and talk with West Indian scholars who basically revere.

David Harris (55:49.026)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (56:10.563)
Suicide Lover.

David Harris (56:11.19)
So yeah, if our audience people may not notice on Louisville tour was the Haitian Revolutionary who really you know helps to free Haiti from France tell people who the black jacket some make people may not

Charles Branham (56:25.733)
Yeah, The Black Jacobins is this wonderful book which essentially talks about Toussaint-L'Ouverture's struggle and Toussaint-L'Ouverture's betrayal. And it is so beautifully written. And you can pick up a paperback copy anywhere. mean, it was one of the few books. Black Jacobins,

David Harris (56:39.854)
Mm-hmm.

Charles Branham (56:56.773)
They came before Columbus.

David Harris (57:05.034)
except do you I have to say this for the folks You told me about that book and working together at lab. I never will forget it You mentioned that book and I went and got it and read it Yes, I've advanced certamah if I'm not mistaken

Charles Branham (57:15.771)
Yeah. And again, I remember beating Ivan van Sertima and Random House, which was the publisher, made him fictionalize certain events in the book because it would improve the narrative. And he, of course, did it because it became one of the most popular books of that time. But I got to tell you.

David Harris (57:34.35)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (57:42.469)
I've always been disappointed in the fact that, because we're old historians, I I'm a John O' Franklin historian. I was trained by John O' Franklin and by others who emphasized that you don't make up stuff, that you don't threaten the integrity of your work by inventing history. Now remember, major white historians have done that.

And I found plagiarism and actual fiction in some of the most important Harvard historians. But that was then. And now you've got technology that can basically catch you if you plagiarize. And so you need to be thorough. You need to be careful. You need to be sure of your facts.

David Harris (58:40.75)
Well, listen, I have to ask this question as we begin to wrap up. And that is, you know, Dr. King has that book, Where Do We Go From Here, Chaos or Community? And I think about that often because today I think just the title alone or the question alone is so relevant. So given all these challenges that we face right now under this administration,

Charles Branham (58:50.255)
Thank you.

David Harris (59:07.714)
that's again, openly hostile to black history, to black folk, that, you know, I would just say openly racist in many ways. Where do we go from here? As educators, particularly, or because I think so much is passing on this information to our young people. I don't care what race they are. That's so vital, but what do you think?

Charles Branham (59:30.639)
Yeah, well, I think that that's a good closing question. so as you know, I didn't just teach history or write history or research history. I was involved as an expert witness in a couple of pretty important cases in Chicago. And I was involved with developing museum exhibits for the opening of Providence Hospital, for example.

exhibit for the opening of the Harold Washington Library, celebrating Harold Washington's life. So I've tried to find various ways of promoting African American history. I remember when Harold Washington was running for mayor, I wrote a four-part column in a newspaper about African American politics, just as a way of talking about the African American struggle for political empowerment. So my answer is gonna flow from that.

And that is, I came to the teaching of African American history because I grew up in the South during the Civil Rights Movement. In my church was the Lee family. Love the Lee family. And there were 11 children. And every one of them was involved in the Civil Rights Movement. They're the first family of Civil Rights in Memphis, Tennessee. And so a lot of marches, a lot of arrests, a lot of struggle.

And so my interest in African American history, because I never was taught African American history, even though I went to an all-black school, my interest in African American history flows from civil rights. So African American history must be in some way political. And so where do we go from here? Where we go from here is to use all of the resources, I already named them essentially, in terms of using museums, in terms of using Black History Month, in terms of using

David Harris (01:01:10.894)
Hmm.

Charles Branham (01:01:25.239)
our culture, our movies, our TV, in terms of developing media presentations, in terms of using the internet, in terms of trying to create opportunities, whether you're talking about a week-long program for teachers that the history makers have done, because I was in charge of one of those, or whether we're talking about maybe a camp that your church puts together for young people to

have an introduction to african-american history we have institutions we have resources but more importantly we have the power to create new institutions we have the power to learn new things and icons a perfect example of that because i'm constantly learning stuff that i go all i'm so sad that i retired because now i'd love to tell my class about this thing that i just learned and we have to be

David Harris (01:02:16.823)
Right.

Charles Branham (01:02:22.087)
We resilient. We have to be constantly vigilant in defense of our rights. We have to be constantly resourceful in trying to find ways of introducing young people to new information about African American history and life. And we have to do it in new ways because you're right. From the Trump administration,

will come increasing pressure, not simply to get rid of Black History Month, but to get rid of any instruction on African-American history in any of the public schools in any of the states that he has influence in. So whether we're talking about Florida or Texas, you remember the story about McGraw-Hill's textbook that the Texas Board of Education approved.

David Harris (01:03:15.456)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Charles Branham (01:03:19.045)
which referred to the enslavement of African Americans as African American immigrants being brought to America to labor in agriculture. Didn't even want to mention that they were brought in chains, that they were brought by force, that they labored under the lash. No, none of that was mentioned. But the sanitizing of our history, going hand in hand with the triumphalism

David Harris (01:03:29.006)
Right. Yeah.

Right, right.

Charles Branham (01:03:48.175)
of the civil rights struggle. Well, we've done that. That's over. We're happy that all of our issues have been resolved. There is no more violence. There is no police brutality. I remember twice, I've been pulled over by three police officers in Chicago. They pulled me over because I was driving an expensive car and they just wanted to look in my trunk. One time I was on my way to lab and I was pulled over and you remember the guard at

David Harris (01:03:52.736)
Overwrite,

David Harris (01:04:11.458)
Mm-hmm.

Charles Branham (01:04:18.118)
And went, he was an ex-police officer, what did you do? Yeah, Mike, he said, what did you do? What did I did? I was a young black man driving at eight o'clock in the morning on a Sunday morning in an expensive car. They just assumed that I must've been a drug dealer.

David Harris (01:04:20.29)
Yeah, Michael, think his name was Michael. Knight, yeah.

Charles Branham (01:04:40.239)
So we've been through this before. And I'm afraid the idea that somehow this is all over, or that we won't have to go through it, or that only some people will have to go through it and that it'll have no impact on our community, or the idea that we don't have any community anymore because we're all individuals now, I'm afraid that idea is gaining currency.

But I am, having taught African-American history for a long time, I am optimistic about the history of African-American resilience. And I am optimistic that African-Americans will find a workaround, a way through, and a way up.

David Harris (01:05:31.8)
you. I think that's a perfect, actually perfect way to actually end. I do want to ask one thing for our listeners, if you were to recommend one book.

people ought to sit down and read about African American history. what would that?

Charles Branham (01:05:54.247)
Well, my choice would be my mentor's book, From Slavery to Freedom. I used to require that at lab and students would come back and say, know, I read this book and then I went to college, you know, they were still using the same book in the course. said, I've already read this book. And then they say, well, they give me a 10 page paper to write. And I go,

David Harris (01:06:00.142)
Hope for-

David Harris (01:06:11.886)
Still reading it.

Charles Branham (01:06:23.311)
Other students were complaining or other students were scared and I'm going, I used to write 10 page papers for Dr. Branham all the time, there's no problem. yeah, look, let's be honest. If you want a one volume history of African Americans, I still think it's the best.

David Harris (01:06:42.978)
I would agree. Though I will tell the audience for me, the first one that I remember on the shelf of my parents that introduced me to African American history was La'Rome Bennet's Before the Mayflower. I still remember that beat up copy on my parents' shelf and I remember that was the first one I read. That was it.

Charles Branham (01:07:00.211)
I absolutely love Lorone Bennett. And I remember, this was in the early seventies, and Coretta Scott King invited a bunch of us down to Atlanta. And she was just beginning to open the Martin Luther King Library.

I was there with Val Gray Ward and with David Lorenz and with a whole bunch of people. And the principal speaker was Lerone Bennett. And Lerone Bennett had this line. And it's basically, now we look through a glass whitely. And basically, this was his argument. And that is that African-American history must.

about what African Americans were talking about, African Americans were thinking, what African Americans were doing, what African Americans were building, what African Americans created. They must emphasize not simply a history of oppression, although the oppression is real and the struggle is real, but what African Americans created for themselves and what African Americans viewed as the most important values.

they wanted to pass down to the next generation.

David Harris (01:08:26.254)
Thank so much. There's nothing I can say after that. That's amazing. Thank you for that quote and for that memory. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much for being a part of the podcast on this Black History Month. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it.

Charles Branham (01:08:42.437)
Well, was an honor for you to ask me and I'm happy to do it.

David Harris (01:08:46.014)
It was wonderful in this time. I'm leave now this conversation inspired, which is just what I need because I've been feeling kind of down lately, Charles, but it's great to talk to you as well. Yes. Amen. I'm so glad Trouble Don't Lass always. Great, great. And I will put in the show notes if people want to be able to contact you, maybe put your email or maybe a way to contact if they'd like to do that. I'll do that. Thank you again, Charles, for being on the show. Really appreciate it.

Charles Branham (01:08:56.967)
Trouble don't last always.

Charles Branham (01:09:09.221)
Okay, yeah, you can certainly do that.

Charles Branham (01:09:15.601)
Thank you, David. Happy Black History Month and power to the people. Take care.

David Harris (01:09:16.556)
Happy Black History Month. And power to the people.

Alright, take care.