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Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
Join us as we dive deep into the world of digital transformation with real-life stories of breakthroughs and challenges from the front lines. In each episode, we'll sit down with industry experts, AND Digital consultants, and other influential figures in the technology space to hear about their personal experiences of leading digital transformation initiatives.
We'll explore what worked, what didn't, and the lessons learned along the way.
Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
Creating Winning Teams: Lessons from sports and airlines
How can sports shape leadership? In this episode, Dan Jowett, Senior Manager at Etihad Airlines, shares how coaching elite football teams influenced his leadership style. From his civil service roots to British Airways and Etihad, Dan’s journey offers insights into resilience, emotional intelligence, and team dynamics.
Discover how diverse “rainbow teams” drive innovation, why asking the right questions matters, and how aligning teams toward a common goal fosters success. Dan also unpacks the role of trust, managing change, and how data-driven innovation is transforming aviation.
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Good Welcome to our podcast being a Digital Leader the good, the bad and the ugly of digital transformation. On today's podcast, we're delighted to welcome Dan Jowett. Dan is the Senior Manager of Airline Operations and Engineering at Etihad Airlines. Dan, it's brilliant to have you with us, thank you, and we know you are in the UK at the moment, so we're taking full advantage of that.
Speaker 1:Dan has a fascinating story, career-wise, to share with us and we'll touch on your time, from coaching elite football teams to working in the civil service and now playing a leading role in the aviation industry. We'll dive into how your experience as a football coach has taught you the importance of building high-performing teams, and also touching on resilience as a topic as part of that, and bringing out the best in people. In terms of the teamwork you've done. Dan's skills have carried him into leadership roles in technology and, specifically, within the travel sector as well. The conversation, I'm sure, is going to be full of insights with regard to teamwork, innovation and what it takes to lead in a fast-paced sector. Welcome, dan again and, before we jump in, I think it'd be great if you could introduce yourself and the role that you are currently playing at Etihad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. Well, yeah, thank you for the invite. It's a great experience to be here. Yeah, I look forward to sharing my little gems, if they are there for people to take away. So yes, dan Jowett, I am currently, as you say, the senior manager within the operations and engineering domain within Etihad. I'm a dad of three, I'm from the northeast of England and I'm also a football coach, as you mentioned, although I'm not coaching quite yet at Abu Dhabi. I've had a couple of offers. I'm just trying to work out which one to take.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's a bit about me Fantastic and also good to know three children. That's a different type of team you run in your personal life as well. Yeah, absolutely, and I and I suppose, dan, if we start with your career journey because you have had a fascinating journey so far and you know that's included transitioning in terms of sector from the public sector into the private sector If you could maybe just talk us through that yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:I mean I graduated with a sport and business degree, so, um, I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do. Um, but I was fortunate enough to get on quite a well-renowned civil service graduate program. Not quite sure how I did he contested those places.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, recall.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and the learnings I got from that were immense, you know, really accelerated my career, and not from a tech background, so I sort of fell into that. But, yeah, in the civil service as a graduate project manager, but didn't necessarily have to be IT projects, but moved around different departments and I ended up being in the strategy enablement department or something like that, which was basically if a minister or secretary of state stood up in parliament and said something, our team had to make it so. So I was currently on placement there at the child support agency and quite frustrated at our big IT department in terms of how they were producing solutions for the, for the challenges that we faced, and I was so frustrated that I learned how to code Visual Basic and built some applications to really solve some particular targets that we had. So became that one man IT department shadow, shadow IT that I probably hate now actually brought me into the world of IT and, yeah, yeah, I came up with some really good solutions working with the various business areas around the country to help with the targets to eliminate child poverty. So that was one of the things of the civil service that the particular department I was in.
Speaker 2:I then moved across to British Airways one of the things in the civil services. I'd just been there and they said you need experience external to really make it as a senior manager and because I hadn't had that, I thought I'd go to British Airways. There's a. There's a place there for a business analyst. It looks roughly aligned to what I'm doing with intention of being there a year and 17 years later had a varied uh career within british airways. So started as a business and process analyst, um, worked my way up to being a sort of domain architect and then transitioned to the dark side of portfolio management running some big projects there within the flight ops area. So that's where I started moving into airline operations and took over some big programs as well and ran a few of those really critical programs within the operations space and then was approached by Etty, had to do sort of things that had been doing in British Airways across in Abu Dhabi and that's where I am now been there for about a year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doing some exciting things there as well fantastic and I know we'll touch on some of your kind of latter experience or of working um on on that side of the world, which is great, and I was going to say the transition. You spoke about the Child Support Agency. Interestingly, you talk about the purpose of the department as well, which is hugely impactful and, I would imagine, really pivotal in getting everybody motivated to have impacted work. How did you because that is the one brilliant thing about working in the public sector is you have that very real societal impact and purpose how did you find that transitioning into the private sector?
Speaker 2:Well, actually that's a really. It was a real critical point that because, yeah, I felt like I was making a difference in the civil service. It was one of the actual values. I remember that making a difference and I suppose you can make a bit of a difference in the private sector if it's not quite the same, and that's why I really got involved in football coaching was to make that difference to my community started out at a really small grassroots team, um, so so, yeah, I got it in different ways. Yes, you can take um pleasure in terms of um the passengers and guests of the airlines. In terms of you, you take them to their destination on holidays and things like that. But that societal impact I probably got achieve. I achieved that through other means and coaching yeah, yeah, no, it's really.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating, isn't it? And I think you know, when you talk about your early experiences, it kind of makes you think you very quickly learn through what you did in the civil service, that, actually, if you grabbed something yourself as an individual, the level of impact that you can have, because I think that's probably also like when you, particularly when you're working in large corporations, it's that growth mindset that you're kind of wanting to engender yeah, absolutely, I talk about a lot.
Speaker 2:It's that proactivity, it's spotting a problem and then trying to solve that problem. Uh, it's not always welcomed, if you like, if you're sort of stepping on the toes of other areas. I'm pretty sure I got a lot of resistance in the the it department for what I was doing. Um, but I know what they did is, when I left the civil service and left that, they basically wrapped in that tool that I built into the main system to enhance it accordingly.
Speaker 1:So you're an innovation pioneer. Even in those early days it wasn't really called innovation.
Speaker 2:Then we sort of just followed my nose and, um, yeah, found solutions to problems that I was facing yeah, really interesting.
Speaker 1:And you know, like, when you look back at your career, um, to date, um, and I'm sure there's a very exciting roadmap ahead but you know, looking back, what are the key moments that you think really shaped your approach to building and leading high performing teams?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I think three particular moments. On my very first day that I joined that that graduate scheme I talked about, I was I was um to work underneath a management consultant and he taught me an awful lot. I can still remember the very first meeting, however long ago, it was 20-something years and him drawing a picture and the picture was keep your thinking at a high level, drop down into the detail and understand what's going on and then keep it back. Make sure you come back up to the high level thinking. So I suppose that helped me understand what the challenges that were faced within an organization, right down to the detail and working with different team members to do that. But the pivotal moment around that was the question he asked do you know Excel? And that's where I started to use these tools and use excel and and really get down to the code level to start putting these solutions in place but rolling them out right across hundreds of caseworkers, as we called them, right throughout the organization. So it was my first exposure to working with teams. That might be not my direct control I did have a couple of sort of direct reports a couple of years later but it was my ability to influence the various teams. They'd been doing things in a certain way for many years and then I would come in and offer different ways to do it and that influencing and that communication and things like that. But I think the key thing about the team within that role and the pivotal moment was having that goal, having that we are eliminating child poverty in that particular instance and people rallying around that. And how do you then divide that down into sub-goals within your department targets and things like that. So that was one particular pivotal moment.
Speaker 2:Another one was within British Airways, which was a which was great for me in terms of my career development. But about 10, 12 years ago I was part of IT's inaugural leadership development program. We had access to clinical psychologists and a coach and things like that and really started working on models and and how do you know yourself? Because the, the, the theory was and it's well, well trodden if you know yourself, then you will be able to know others better and be able to influence others and understand your behaviors and therefore can reflect better on others.
Speaker 2:So that was really pivotal in terms of my leadership, totally changed me as well, changed my life, not even just the career, changed my life in terms of how I interacted, probably accelerated my coaching and turned me turned me from being quite shy to being less shy sitting here. So I'd say that was a pivotal moment. And the third pivotal moment I can think of is where my son was playing football, five years old, and the coach said, here, do you want to help? And stood up. And you know, years later I think I was coaching probably about 100 children or players at the same at the same time, different nights ranging from playing cops and robbers with little reception age kids to international players representing England or different nationalities working out how do you break down a low block or what have you at the same time.
Speaker 1:So those three things are really pivotal in my career, but also, then, how I manage teams as well it's so interesting and like this, there's a common thread that runs through all those things in that there's probably at those moments an element of vulnerability, absolutely In the sense of when you tried out the new stuff in your public sector role, it could have failed. Or, equally, the coaching was new to you. You didn't know how that was going to pan out, but you've just grabbed hold of those opportunities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's nothing as daunting as sitting with 15 five-year-olds trying to get them to go in one direction and kicking the ball and not run over there, and yeah, so that was pretty daunting, as well as coaching. Know, coaching it is. You're standing in front of 20 players or whatever is in the training um squad looking at you, looking for guidance and uh, yeah, it's uh. There are moments that is terrifying and you have to have that vulnerability and you have to rely on people that are experts around you and really harness that and we might touch on about that later. But, yeah, harnessing your team around you is crucial, but recognizing where you you do not have the knowledge and you can rely on other people around you to support you, whether that's a goalkeeper or um, I don't know a data architect yeah backgrounds that I'm not used to, never been in those positions so you have to harness their capabilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's something else in how you are describing it, but also the leadership programme that you went through at British Airways. But the emotion and all the jargon, right, but in terms of the emotional intelligence, the human element, understanding how you come across, how people are going to interface with you as a leader, was probably quite key as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know there's about that vulnerability. But you have to get to a position where you are confident in what you're saying. But confidence could also be to say I don't know the answer to that, but I will go and find out, or this is how I believe that to be, or this is what I believe to be the answer. I might be wrong. So yeah, I mean there is a balance between sort of fake it till you make it, but really you have to be in a position to be honest as well around those levels of vulnerability and how you can help the business going forward in your own, in your own way it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I was reading something online recently and and there was a quote along the lines of you know that there's a common thread amongst some great leaders where they don't know all the answers. They don't purport to know all the answers, but they do all ask fantastic questions which really resonated as well. Yeah, and you know, I think, for those of us who aren't technologists, by trade practitioners, who aren't technologists by trade practitioners you know, who work in the tech space, I'm interested in your perspective about how important it is for a tech leader to understand tech and at what level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I don't think you necessarily have to have a background in tech to then understand tech. I think it is important you can't be out there and be seen by your business stakeholders or your clients, or whoever it might be, as a tech leader or a technologist if you don't understand that.
Speaker 2:But I think, it's about mindset, isn't it? It's about having that curiosity. It's about mindset, isn't it? It's a. It's about having that, um, curiosity. It's about, as I mentioned earlier on, about dropping down into the detail when you feel it necessary, relying on other people when you need it, um, but, but, always having that approach to learning and finding out and, um, you know, like I say, you can, you can be the, the product of your team. That's the. That's the beauty of being a leader. You sort of, if you can be a multiplier by your team members that have their expertise and harness that and pick out bits and learn from your team members at all times. You, you can have that. You can be seen as being a tech expert, even if your background's not in it so I think, it is.
Speaker 2:It is really important um to again understand where your gaps are and and look to look to fix them and not to to continue in learning and and follow the industry and keep solving problems yeah, I, I love that and, as somebody who works, I've spent 30 years working in tech.
Speaker 1:I'm not even though my other half, who is a techie, challenges me to actually build product as well. Um, you know, I think for me what's always been really important is that people are interested in it yeah and and they are willing to drop down into the detail. Um, because I think, in order to really understand and work in the space, you you need to have a passion for it and be willing to roll your sleeves up and understand it absolutely.
Speaker 2:It comes about opportunity, and I would say this both in in terms of tech and coaching. You know, when I did I mentioned I did a sports degree I didn't even take the coaching module because I didn't think I would be ever in that position to coach until the opportunity came, or sort of. I was forced into it or fell into it, whatever it was, and then grasped it wholeheartedly. And it's the same with tech. I didn't, I wasn't interested in the tech, I didn't take it as a GCSE or whatever it would be. But then the opportunity came and I probably got that analytical mindset to, to where it sort of aligned to to how my brain work may be. So I might not have had the opportunity in terms of background and education, but in terms of the role that I was doing, I could see that tech was going to be an enabler for the problems that we're facing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because you know us well at, and A lot of the work that we do is to close the digital skills gap and it's getting you know. I studied political science at university Nothing, absolutely nothing to do with tech, but it's getting people, whether they're experienced in other sectors and careers, and also young people, to understand that. You know, you don't necessarily have to have come through a certain route. That, if you look, I was. One of the things I love about working in the sector um is you and and the clients that I work with. Everybody has come to their roles through such a variation of of journey, which makes it so much richer in terms of the diversity of thoughts as well absolutely, and it's great that undo that, because again is about harnessing people's skill sets.
Speaker 2:But harnessing different viewpoints, harnessing different cultures, um, it's absolutely crucial and I think that's you know. To go back to what we talked about earlier, about making a difference yes, we're in the private sector, but we can make a difference to people's lives through that, by opening doors for them, by by giving them opportunities. There are ways to do that outside of the public sector.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and that really resonates Some of the work that we've done, particularly with STEM academies in areas that are really challenged in terms of employment and poverty really in the UK and poverty really in the UK and actually seeing young people grasp the fact that there are incredible careers waiting for them and that they have full access to those, is really an impactful part of the work that I've been fortunate enough to be involved in. Yeah, and it kind of like that conversation leads us quite nicely into, I know one of the things you're really passionate about is creating teams that you know we'll call them rainbow teams and you can, you know, elaborate on that. You know that have diverse skills, backgrounds, et cetera. I'm really interested in kind of and there's a lot of corporate box ticking that happens when it comes to diversity in all of its dimensions. I'm interested in your perspective and the value you see in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's crucial as a leader. You might have a budget to create a team and that might be recruiting, or it might be bringing in partners like yourselves, like and in there, or it might be multiple providers that specialise in different areas, but it's about creating that team, isn't it? Whether it's on the sporting field or whether it's on in the corporate world, you've got to create a balanced team and with the relevant skill sets. Um, yeah, I constantly use sport analogy because, because of the stuff I do in that area, but you wouldn't want your goalkeeper to be a center forward, you know the skill set is different, or or what have you? You've got to have that capabilities that align to the roles, but as long as you can come together as that one team, then that that's crucial.
Speaker 2:Um, but, yeah, different backgrounds and, uh, different cultures is important, yeah, and I was thinking about this earlier on and and really, what also helps is create that, um, creative tension, if you like, that, that little bit of conflict that's relevant, to be able to have that creativity and problem solving and looking at things from different angles, because if you have just cardboard cutouts of the same people in the roles, then you're never going to get that sort of diversity of thinking as well. Never going to get that sort of diversity of thinking as well. So some of the most difficult problems have come from some unexpected areas, from somebody who maybe not doesn't have a background in tech, and they see things indifferently. So, absolutely it's crucial that you have that balance. But the key thing about a leader is how do you harness that, how do you allow for that conflict to get to a certain level where it's creative without it being destructive?
Speaker 2:and I think that's the, that comes with experience or comes with awareness of what's going in and around you. Um, and really probably how I see my role is, is ensuring that, yeah, we can bring those people in and I can recruit them and we can have that common direction or intent, as I call it. But if you don't have that right environment and you're not that one team mentality, then then it just breaks down, it just fails. Um, you've got to have all of those three elements which I'm writing a number of articles around this, but you need to have the right people, the right intent in the right environment to be able to actually propel as a team and deliver value to your business or whatever it is that you're operating in yeah, it's really interesting because I mean like, particularly given now the part of the world that you are working in um, you are probably and I mean even in london, as a
Speaker 1:city. You, you are dealing with diversity on a number of different levels, right, you, you've got in, you know, you alluded to it. You've got people who will come from different disciplines that will bring and, and there's a really, um, incredible output as a result of the friction that can exist, um, but you've also then got a lot of different cultural differences from people. The fact that people have just grown up in very different parts of the world with very different cultures and values, possibly, yeah, um, how, how are you? How do you find that? And and maybe also, when you talk about environment, I'm interested in, you know, are you referencing culture within the business, etc yeah, absolutely I am.
Speaker 2:Um, I think environment could be that culture within a team, or the environment, the organization or the country the operating in, and certainly within abu dhabi.
Speaker 2:You know, I was saying earlier when we had a chat that, um, I was in a meeting, six people in the meeting from five different nationalities, um, but we're all going in the same direction, or one, the one same thing. I speak to my team that, again, multiple backgrounds and multiple different nationalities, that we, if we are pulling in the same direction, then we'll make it and we set that same environment and we have, we have that, we have that goal in mind to be able to make a difference, whether it's our careers or what have you, then then we can harness that together as a team and propel into the right areas and, again, solve the problems. That's all I see. That I do is is solve problems and I feel like I've done that. Whether it's coaching career, the problem is how do we win the game on a Sunday or whether it is, how do we solve the problem of an on-time performance that needs to increase in the airline sector?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's fascinating like we could spend the next half an hour, I think, on on diverse teams, really, really interesting, and and I think one of the things that really struck me when we first spoke was you spoke really eloquently about creating order out of chaos, and we know so I know that is something that you've got quite a bit of experience in. So I know that is something that you've got quite a bit of experience in. I'm really interested to unpack sort of how you go about, like, say, the scenario of you landing. I'm sure you've been in these situations where you've landed.
Speaker 1:It's not something that you've started but you've inherited and you've been brought in as the guy who's going to fix this. What is the kind of process that you go through?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, the chaotic situation I think people don't tend to like chaos and disorder and things like that. I think just my childhood was really comfortable and things like that, but I was quite disorganized. I was quite a disorganized child but I knew where everything was in my bedroom. The chaos was there, but really what I was able to do is start recognizing, when I in my career, that I couldn't be that disorganized. So I would see that as my superpower if I ever was asked that is, creating the order out of chaos, because I'm comfortable in that environment.
Speaker 2:But I recognize that other people aren't and people can be uncomfortable and you have to be comfortable in uncertainty.
Speaker 2:I think, especially when a program is it's either it's early stages or is failing or what have you and things aren't running in the in the right direction and people aren't quite clear of their roles, is to add that order and structure around that. But being comfortable that we don't have all the answers yet and be comfortable that we're not quite clear about what your role could be in this team, but we'll get there and if we have the right sort of attitude and the right sort of you know we're heading in this direction. We might then pivot into a different direction, but we know where we want to go, that you can start creating that order. But yeah, it can be uncomfortable and you know I can be just as nervous going into a program as anybody else. But, um, I think with that ability to just think calmly and logically, you can start breaking down that, those those barriers that come with chaos and and start pulling people together in that direction and are there.
Speaker 1:You know in in your experience where you go in and you find the chaos. What would you extract as being some of the common themes in terms of the root cause of how those programs have landed up in chaos?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of the time it is that uncertainty about either the goal that we're getting we need to get to, or the way that we're going to get there.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of the time it is around that or it might be certain, let's say, egos that are at play or what have you, and or there's there's resistance in the, in the business, to actually enact that change and we might touch upon change.
Speaker 2:But really it's about understanding why it is in that that position like it could be any number of factors, but listening to what the problems are, listening to people and what their concerns are, and really trying to empathise with them or understand their viewpoint, walk in their shoes, as they say, and start piecing together solutions with those people that are part of that team, because the likelihood of you never going to a programme midway through and get a new team in to replace the previous team you won't do that. So you've got to be able to bring people together and align them under a common goal I think is key, and some of the things I certainly talk about that Etihad is us doing that and moving forward in that direction. So, yeah, I think the common theme is a lack of clarity of where we're trying to get to and how we're trying to get there, um, or people's resistance to it.
Speaker 1:They're probably two of the themes I see over and over again. Yeah, really really interesting, um and and we've we've talked about coaching and I'm I'm really interested in the sport to business dynamic I suppose and it was women's football that you coached, right, I'm really interested in the lessons that you'd kind of highlight on that coaching experience and how you've applied it to leading teams in a corporate context.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I think the three critical components that I talked about probably came from reflecting on the corporate world and then looking at the sporting world that you think about a team. A team needs to have the right people in the right positions. This is a football team you know you need to have, especially if you're you're at the elite level, you need the best in the area, almost if you're representing so yeah, the, the. So you sort of work out what, what that team structure might need to be, or that team dynamics or whatever it might be in terms of people's positioning, positions in the team, find them, develop them, grow them, work with them to sort of make them better in those, those positions. So that certainly transposes across into the corporate world. It's just the same. It's just a different context, the intent as well, that other part of the venn diagram that I've drew around.
Speaker 2:This is like what's our I've said this a number of times what's our goal? And in a training session. So we would train a few times a week, two hours each time. So it's a long time. You, you break down the training session and to say that this is what we're trying to achieve. Out the training session, you go down into the drill level that might be, I don't know, 20 minute drill here or practice, and what's our goal out of that? And then you take that up and say, well, what's our goal for this, this match on Sunday? What's our goal for the first half? What's our target?
Speaker 2:How do we then debrief at half time to ensure we've got a new goal in the second half if things aren't going our way? Or things are going our way? And then you can extrapolate that up to the season as well, or part season. So so that that's the, what I describe as the intent, and then the environment setting up. How do we um create that environment where people are willing to challenge each other, are willing to solve problems together? Um and and uh come together around that common goal and that interest in terms of being able to um support each other through difficulties, someone might be having a bad game. How do you lift them up? And that's about setting that environment and having leaders within the team that can also do things on the pitch. You know one of the things I'd say I probably played two positions in my you know, amateur football career. I couldn't tell you how the other nine positions work as such.
Speaker 2:I could tell you but I couldn't I you how the other nine positions work as such. I could tell you, but I couldn't, I haven't experienced it. But the people that I'm coaching or leading, they do so. Again, it goes back to harnessing their knowledge, their skill set, their experience and bringing that into the wider team environment as well. So there's a huge amount of parallels. And you know, I because I was doing at the same time coaching as well as quite a, you know, relatively speaking a senior role. The overlaps were just huge. And I was training on the wednesday, thinking about something and training, and then the next day I'll be put into practice in the corporate world and then vice versa. So huge amount of overlaps. But the thing is about sport is and I remember this from my degree that it's a microcosm of society. Is the quote that I? Uh, that I really do remember. And it's the same. It's a microcosm of the um, of a, an organization as well. So there's just it. There's so many overlaps.
Speaker 2:And I would advise anybody to get involved in it, because it just brings out different mindsets and you see the results straight away. You do something on Thursday, you see the game on a.
Speaker 1:Sunday A bit different to digital transformation right. But it's quite interesting when you talk about it in that respect, because the one thing you know listening has obviously been a key part of how you play, whether it's in your coaching context, as a in in football or in business, in terms of the key roles. So, yeah, it's um lots, lots of crossover and um transferable learnings, I would imagine absolutely, but also about you know the human, how humans behave?
Speaker 1:yeah particularly under pressure yeah um, and I suppose you've got pressure and stress in both of those scenarios playing out yeah and and again, a crossover.
Speaker 2:I've got another, another term it was um by bill walsh, I think he was an American football coach that the score takes care of itself and if you get the right processes in place around those things that we talk about, then the way I would then take that into the corporate world is the result takes care of itself, trust the process and that helps you be calm in those environments where it is high stakes or where we need to hold our nerve, and trust that we're going to get out of that through applying the processes that we've learned Again in sport I use a lot of the time is don't make the second mistake.
Speaker 2:In football, if you miscontrol a ball and it runs away from you and then you what we say dive into a tackle and give away a penalty, it's actually the second mistake that kills you, not the miscontrol of the ball penalty. It's actually a second mistake that kills you, not the miscontrol of the ball. The ball runs away with you, just reset, keep calm and then do the right thing next. Don't try and fix your problem that you've caused with them by making another mistake, and that's the same thing. We will make mistakes at work in the corporate world. We learn from those mistakes.
Speaker 1:But we've just got to try and keep that cool head recognize that we've made a mistake, learn from it and try and not make the same mistake again yeah we've got plenty of mistakes to make and we'll keep making them, but try not make this but also the way you know when you, when you describe it and you use the word trust to create invariable environments where people can challenge yeah, are comfortable being challenged, can be vulnerable and admit they're having a bad game or a bad day yeah, um, how how do you um your secret sauce for creating environments where trust is engendered in your teams?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, it is about creating the environment, but you've got to have the right people as well. And this goes back to that where you've got the right people with the right attitude, and that's part of the selection process, whether it's working with a partner or whether it's um employing someone permanently. So you've got to look at that innate attitude that that person carries with them. And you're right, it is about that trust element, about they are expertise, they have the right attitude. Now let them go with it, empower them to run with it and make their own mistakes.
Speaker 2:I'm not a big micromanager and sometimes people would like me to be a micromanager but I think if you are going to grow your team, you've got to put them in positions where you trust them to deliver something, especially if they're an expert in that area or that field or that domain. So my current role at the moment I've got a brilliant team who I trust implicitly because they are experts. They've been at etihad for years, they've worked in the business area that we then um deliver technology to. They know it really well, far better than me, and and therefore I've got to trust that they're going to do the right thing. And in my team meetings, my team meetings we don't talk about projects. We talk about us as a team and how do we keep growing? And I'm just a part of that team. I might have a different role, but everyone has a different role. My role is to bring people together, but that doesn't mean that that person's not a leader in their field as well. When they're out speaking to the business or the chief of that particular area or the chief of that particular area, it's up to them to apply their knowledge, and I've got to trust them to do that and empower them to make mistakes and I'll back them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean in the tech space, probably, when it comes to micromanaging somebody who's an architect or somebody who's coding. For those of us who aren't technologists by trade, you know that is very well impossible and you understand undermining people yeah exactly, and and it they become less productive or they become less aversions of themselves.
Speaker 2:When they do that because you're trying to impose your view of the world, when, when they're the expert and make use of it. Don't don't try and dampen it with micromanage. Every little task and less brave.
Speaker 1:You know in in terms of, you know, charting a good course that might take you somewhere that you ultimately are delighted to land up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when I talk about that side of intent, I used to call it direction, but direction seems to be top down and intent can come from the team, ideas come from the team. They set the path or they help set the path, and people that are experts in the field or the domain might know what the solution is and we've got allow that come from bottom up or sideways or whichever direction, and not just impose the direction that I want on the team. You've got a fair idea of where I want to get to, but the team might help. You know, plot that course and and um, where, where do you?
Speaker 1:I mean going slightly off piste. Sometimes things don't go the way you think and you have this is the bad and the ugly part and and you have trusted, and and you have empowered. How do you like what? What are your learnings from those experiences?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, it's a good question as well. I think and and this is where I suppose the the the ugly may be that if you want a team to be particular I mean this is this is so apparent in elite sports If a person's not performing in that role, you have to try your best to grow them, but at some point you might need to suggest that they better fit in another team. What have you? I've had to, unfortunately, do that at occasions, but if the pursuit is to have a high-performing team, you've got to have high-performing individuals within that. So I would say that is the ugly part of being a manager or a leader that you have to make sometimes really difficult decisions that impact people. That said, you know, there was a, there was a program and that I ran at British Airways and it was a top five program. It was a, there was a program and that I ran at british airways and it was a top five program. It was mandatory. It was really really critical. It was about transforming the flight planning area of ba and um. That has two parts. It was a transformation and covert came right in the middle of that program now pre-covered um.
Speaker 2:I made mistakes. I came up with a plan. I said it was going to take 18 months, I said it was going to cost this much money and I was hammered down on the time and the cost and that really set me up for failure, if you like. But I worked with the team. We then grew in confidence, um, and then covid happened and when we started again, I was able to because the furlough that was happening in the uk at the time I was almost able to pick individuals within the organization to join my team and therefore I was able to create that team.
Speaker 2:At that point, I'd have the confidence to go back right. Okay, we've got to reset. This is the plan. This is now reflective and we set ourselves up for success. Um, so, yeah, I, I remember that and sometimes it was moving people on. We got different people into different roles because I had the luxury of being able to pick some people that I worked with and trusted and and bring them into the team and we delivered some fantastic stuff. Yeah, um, phase two or whatever it is post-covered and um, yeah, that was certainly a challenging but very formative for me, because I've made mistakes in the previous one, but um was given the opportunity to then fix those mistakes in the second, second, second round, and deliver, deliver it successfully yeah, really interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, I I uh we talk about uh one a one team culture and I think, um we're probably as in terms of how you work and we've had the good fortune of working with you, quite aligned in terms of it being a key part, but as as part of that one team, it is there any others? Sorry, I'll say that again. What strategies do you use to create a one team culture?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is my non negotiable. One team is my non negotiable because it's where things break down. If you're not, if you're not heading the right direction, or if you're the same direction or you're not respecting each other, um, or you're happy, there's little cliques and this happens very much in the sporting environment as well, where there's little cliques in the changing room. You have to break those silos down and bring them to the fore. So, yeah, this is where I'm very calm.
Speaker 2:And this is probably the only area where in my career I've been less calm, if you like, where where I felt that people weren't heading that direction of being one, one team culture and that could be back channels or what have you and you know I've held people to account to say that, look, we, we, you know you might not like the person you're working with or playing with, but we have a common goal here and we have a, we have a common interest in making sure that we, we um, come together and um become the greater than the sum of our, and I think it's that one team that gives us that ability and I see that right the way across.
Speaker 2:That could be at the team level or the organisation level, and it's some of the stuff that I'm working very closely with my business counterparts to break down the silos that are there from an architectural side, but particularly from an organization side, to to ensure that we, we see ourselves as that one team and, um, like I say, together we we can achieve some really good things if you, if you are going in the right direction and and you, you become the sum product of, of the just the parts that are there. You see, in sports so much, the underdog that manages to bring people together can beat the team that have the world world beaters in them because they have that passion and they have that um that approach to to uh succeed and um uh that mental state to work together to to achieve great things yeah, it's like the human spirit firing on all cylinders in that regard.
Speaker 1:Um and is there. Is it more difficult to do that when you're dealing with diverse cultures?
Speaker 2:um, not necessarily I don't think I've seen that. I I think one might think it would be, but again, um, I've seen it. With people from the same culture, uh, not having that one team. Seeing people from the same village, uh, not have that one team. So I, I don't think it's actually as aligned to that it might perceive to be because of the culture. But if you're aware of people's background and their culture and where they come from, then there's no reason why you can't still have that one team mentality. So, um, no, I don't, I don't think it does that not my experience um, yeah, I, I like the answer.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, as you know, this is a the bad and the ugly when it comes to digital transformation. Can you share with us your most impactful transformation program that you've been involved in today?
Speaker 2:Well, the most one. It was probably my last one at British Airways, I think, and it was where I worked really closely with and around that. We had really ambitious growth. British Airways is going under a real big, ambitious technology technological change at this moment and it continues on. But we were tasked at building out a whole new architecture, particularly around data, and it's crucial for British Airways and now within Etihad, that you harness that data and use the insights that come from that data to be able to achieve what we want in terms of the operation. So I was challenged in a matter of months to come out with data streams and build a team very quickly, and I think we went from about 12 to 80 in a matter of months and we were able to deliver data from really legacy back-end systems in BA that have been there for some time and there is a transformation to to slowly move them into more modern architecture. But we were challenged to get data out of these systems and put them forward into really cutting-edge optimizers and the different teamwork we're building, and we did that. We did that really quickly and I would say that transformation it will take multiple years.
Speaker 2:I set up the team and then, you know, got the offer it had and I'm doing something similar there as well and I was speaking back to some of my British Airways colleagues and checked in with them yesterday, whilst here and you know things are going sometimes in a slightly different direction. They've got a different leadership leader in in place at the moment, but sort of I'm really proud of what we achieved there and I think what was particularly proud was building that team. It wasn't necessarily the output of it. Like I said, if you, if you get the right team, you would. The output will take care of itself. But but bringing a team together very quickly from different suppliers, that the experts and some of them offshore even in to create that one team culture was, was hugely rewarding to me, not not least because of the transformation that it would have to be in terms of improving the on-time performance.
Speaker 2:That is the the key strategy that be trying to do at the moment.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and I your. Your sense of pride is very palpable when you, when you talk about it and I mean I know in terms of our Andy's who worked alongside you, you know, have exactly the same sense of pride in terms of what they, what they did with you. Is there a pot is? Is there anything stand out in terms of like as part of a transformation program where you've you've had to actually go back totally change track, park something?
Speaker 2:um, I don't think ever gone back you know, change direction.
Speaker 2:Maybe, um, slightly changed direction, but I don't think ever overhaul because what might have come before was were mistakes. I think the closest one was probably that flight planning transformation that I mentioned. Mistakes were made. There was a full review of the, the program itself, because it wasn't going in the right direction. I think, fortunately, that I was was given the task. I, because it wasn't going in the right direction. I think, fortunately, that I was was given the task. I mean it was huge, it was business change and and um, it wasn't just about it change, there was lots of different facets but I I think you know the I suppose the benefit of that break through covert was to have that reset and and look through a sort of different eyes that probably everybody did post COVID to sort of say that actually this didn't work and that didn't work and we have to fundamentally change our approach in this area. So that's probably the closest one. I would say that it wasn't a total transformation, it wasn't a total about turn, but it was fundamental enough. I got a totally different business to work from.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people moved on through Corby within that business and I worked with some really great people on that second phase. That probably did take it in a different direction to what the previous um, the previous business team, took it. Yeah, so not quite fundamentally. It's just about learning. It's an evolution and, yes, we might change direction in subtle areas, maybe technological decisions that moved on in that time, um, but not a root and branch turn around. I don't think I've been involved in failing programs and being parachuted in to to turn them around. But again, it's recognizing the good that is being done beforehand and then just, maybe even just subtle changes, tweaking, yeah, yeah really interesting and we've we've we've touched on the word change quite a lot in different parts of our conversation.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that all of us who work in the transformation space in a way, and my technical colleagues, always kick me under the table at this point the technical aspects can sometimes be the easiest ones. Navigating the change is often the most complex. So I'm interested in how you manage resistance to change, particularly in and you talk about environment quite a lot. You know, especially like, if you may be in more traditional, potentially more hierarchical environments.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm interested in your experience and your any gems you can impart there, dan yeah, I think we were talking about change a lot yesterday and often there's it's always mentioned as a critical component, but sometimes the priority isn't given. And I would agree, you know, we could come up with the best system or tool or architecture or what have you, but unless it's, unless it's creating business value or changing the way that the business is working, then it it's almost pointless, it doesn't have the impact that it needs to and it's change management that unlocks that in a lot of the time. So, yeah, I think business leaders or leaders in any organisation have to invest or pay high regard to that change management function and almost plan the change and get that start working on the change at the very onset. And that's something I'm trying to encourage within the program that I'm kicking off within Etihad at the moment is we need that change functioning straight away to start working, because we're working with the business, we're working with the front-end users.
Speaker 2:I think the key things about the resistance it's it's, it's there for a reason and then often it's right that that resistance is there. And really listening to those resistors or detractors can actually help you solve the problems that they are facing on their day-to-day basis. And the best change initiatives that I've seen is where we almost go into the detractors and turn them into promoters. That is worth its weight in gold, if you like, if you can turn a detractor into a promoter, because that's how you harness that resistance to turn them into champions, and then they can empathize with the next resistor and say, yeah, I had that same feeling and look what difference it's made to mine. I certainly had that in the Windows 10 program that I ran at British Airways, being able to turn a quite a key resistor to somebody who then was a champion and helped me for the for the rest of my time on that program.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a really interesting point you make in terms of you know the partnering between a business and a tech function, a tech, digital function, in the sense that sometimes people might be labeled as being difficult or resistant to change. But actually to your point, why you know, what can you learn, what can you take out of that? Because if they're people who understand the way the business is really operating, what the business requirement needs, um championing the end user, be it a consumer or an internal colleague, you're actually going to get a much richer product or solution off the back of that absolutely, and and you've got to go in with the attitude that this person wants the same thing as you.
Speaker 2:They want to have a do a better job, or they want to enjoy their work, or whatever it might be. And I think this is I didn't really answer the hierarchy bit but it doesn't matter where in the hierarchy people are. You've got to understand it from their point of view and and, um, you know, empathize with them and sit with them and talk to them and particularly listen to them and and then work with them to solve the problems. Um, bring them on board, get them involved and I suppose that's the beauty of Agile is Agile's probably as close to the sport and environment that I've seen, where you can work with somebody and see the results very, very quickly. And bring people in who maybe aren't technologists from the business and help them. Not quite code, but sit down with the cod code or sit down with the person that's come in with a technical solution, but work as that one blended team that involves the business and and it together. I think that goes back to the one team thing yeah, absolutely, I was.
Speaker 1:I was going to mention that as well, to say that when we talk about teams one teams, including the business, um as well, um, and, and I suppose then understanding from a risk profiling perspective, where different people in that hierarchy sit in terms of appetite for risk, um, and getting people to the right levels of understanding and knowledge about you know, there's some potential, really big impact we can have here. It doesn't come without risk, potentially, but getting everyone comfortable with the risk profile, yeah, and that's happening with etihad at the moment in terms of the program.
Speaker 2:Um, helping run. There is etihad's on a very ambitious growth journey. It's going to double in size. Now my strap line, if you double in size, quadruple in complexity.
Speaker 2:The do nothing is not an option. The do nothing means that what we call in the airline industry on time performance will plummet. It naturally will. We have to do something transformative. We have to do something different and a lot of my time since sort of coming up with this idea for this program has been exclusively working with the senior members of the different areas to to get them bought into that by understanding their challenges but also understanding how they can help us unlock, uh, the key problem of etihad's growth is going to. The key problem of Etihad's growth is going to happen and convincing them that we have to do something that is different to maybe what Etihad have done.
Speaker 2:But again, that always comes back to that one team. One team could be a chief of a certain department, part of that team at any one time and one team can be at multiple levels. Um, you've got to have that common goal. It wasn't the, the it's probably been rolled out so many times but the guy that's sweeping the floor at the nasa um headquarters or what have you? That was asked what you're doing, and it's um, sending a man to the moon? Um, it doesn't matter what your role within it, whether you're the guy that takes the step on the moon or the guy that's sweeping the floor. You are pulling in the same direction and it doesn't matter where you are in the hierarchy. Probably want the same thing.
Speaker 1:We've got the same goals yeah, um, and you're a key part of the mission yeah, yeah, exactly um, and you know it sounds like you've got a really exciting. You talk about the growth and and you know, growth in my mind always goes alongside opportunity um, I'm, I'm really interested in uh, what, and that sounds very exciting. What excites you most about the future of aviate, of aviation specifically? And? Um, yeah, that'd be great to hear your perspective on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it is a very exciting time for the aviation industry. It is booming at the moment, post-covid, after some very dark times through COVID, and a lot of airlines are growing. There's not enough aircrafts to go around the growth plans for each of the different airlines. But yeah, I think the innovation that's happening at the moment, and is particularly what I'm trying to do within the programme, is around data, data streaming, making full use of data to be able to offer insights, and then you can start bringing in the machine learning elements and the artificial intelligence and the predictive parts. So we've sort of got a roadmap that then takes us to good use of data. We've got data there. We're making better decisions because of the data, and then we're going to expand on that and add certain rules and certain scenarios in and then we're going to add machine learning and artificial intelligence and optimizers that help sort of suggest.
Speaker 2:These are the, the potential solutions to um, this flight that might be delayed. You know the knock-on effect. We can sort of map that out by by using the latest, latest technology. Um. So for me it's hugely exciting that there's some remarkable things that are going on in the industry and you know it's so exciting to be part of that and leading the program within one of those airlines to sort of make that a reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's phenomenal. Loves travel. Ultimately, all the things you're talking about lead to fantastic experiences for people, whether they traveling for pleasure, business, reconnecting with loved ones, absolutely yeah, yeah, and it's one of our key streams.
Speaker 2:It's what what we call the guest. You know it's about delivering a better guest experience, um, a better guest journey. It we will smooth that out by reducing delays, by handling disruption that inevitably comes with weather events and things like that. We will enhance that guest journey. You don't want to be delayed before your holiday, you know. You don't want to be delayed for that, that business meeting, um so. So, yeah, we're making some real good, innovative solutions, but always with the guest in mind. Yeah, so it's one of the key components.
Speaker 1:Dan, you've got phenomenal experience. Kind of in a nutshell, what advice would you give to aspiring leaders that might be watching and listening to us, who want to build high performing collaborative teams?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's that difference between what's a manager and a leader and to if you're an aspiring leader, you don't necessarily have to be a manager and you could be an aspiring leader at any level. I think for me, you, you have to lead your area or your domain or your yourself, um, so so you can, like I said, help with that intent, help with the direction, help, come up with suggestions around that you can, um, help people. So so, yes, if you're an aspiring leader and maybe you don't have the decisions that you can help people, so, yes, if you're an aspiring leader and maybe you don't have the decisions that you can in terms of recruitment, but you can help the team grow. You can help people around you and pass on knowledge to help that that particular person or that team, and pass that on to enhance that, and you can be part of that environment, you can set that environment, you can be that role model. So, for me, an aspiring leader, yeah, apply those principles, but apply in your role and to yourself, and if you do get the opportunity to manage and make decisions, then you've already done that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, for me again to use the, the sporting arena. I have many leaders on that pitch. I want 11 leaders on that pitch. I I'm on the sidelines, I can't get on that pitch and do anything. You've got to trust and empower that, and so some of the stuff I used to talk to the players is you know, be your own leader. You know, be yourself, be the leader of your unit. You know the defensive unit or the, the attacking unit, or what have you? Try and be the leader of your unit. You know the defensive unit or the attacking unit or what have you try and be that leader within your small area and it. It's not a big growth, it's not a big jump to then lead a team and lead a team of teams and and lead an organization, but if you can apply it at your level, then, um, you know.
Speaker 1:I love that Very inspirational. Now you know us well at AND and we all have AND titles to reflect the fact that, yes, we bring our professional selves to work, but we have a very human dimension, each and every one of us as well. If you had an AND title, what would it be and why?
Speaker 2:us as well. If you had an and title, what would it be and why? Yes, okay. So ever since working for man, I saw that and thought that's a very interesting concept and I wonder what mine would be. But never really been pressed on what that is. So this is the first time, I think. For me it's very simple. It's it's whatever my role is, and coach, you know. You know I can play around with that, but effectively I feel like that's what I am. I'm a coach. Whether I'm leading a team or what have you, I'm always coaching that team. Whether I'm on the on the training pitch or on the the side or in the changing rooms at half time, I'm still coaching. And whether I'm coming up with a new strategy for an organization, I'm still coaching the people around me. So it has to be coached.
Speaker 1:And probably. I love that and very fitting, and it probably also translates into family life as well. I would imagine as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I'm not sure they listen to me very much.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they do. Dan, I can't thank you enough for your time today. It's been. I've really enjoyed our conversation, um, and it's been lovely to spend time with you. Um, that is everything for this edition of the good, the bad and the ugly of digital transformation. Um, again, thank you, dan, um, and if you have enjoyed this episode, please do follow and subscribe to make sure that you will always know when we have a new episode out.
Speaker 2:Thank you thank you very much. Thank you pleasure right boss.
Speaker 1:What did I miss?
Speaker 2:oh was it.
