Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
Join us as we dive deep into the world of digital transformation with real-life stories of breakthroughs and challenges from the front lines. In each episode, we'll sit down with industry experts, AND Digital consultants, and other influential figures in the technology space to hear about their personal experiences of leading digital transformation initiatives.
We'll explore what worked, what didn't, and the lessons learned along the way.
Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
Reinvention, resilience & the realities of digital leadership
What does real transformation look like when the pressure is on and assumptions break? We sit down with two Currys leaders who have lived the good, the bad and the ugly of digital change and found a way to turn urgency into value. Their journeys—one from creative studios into tech delivery, the other from e‑commerce into enterprise architecture—show how curiosity, clear intent and stakeholder empathy can move mountains.
We get specific about crisis execution and lasting impact. You’ll hear how contactless click‑and‑collect launched in just three weeks to keep essential tech in homes, and how ShopLive evolved into RepairLive to blend human expertise with video support. We explore the less glamorous side too: when a vendor programme inflates beyond reason, the right call can be to pause, modernise what works, migrate to the cloud and simplify APIs instead of forcing a risky replacement. The same mindset guides their data centre exit, where migration methods changed as they learned more about heritage systems and business risk.
Culture threads through every win. A thriving women’s network that spans corporate, retail and supply chain, plus flexible hybrid working, widens the talent pool and builds psychological safety—the spark that turns whiteboards into engines for better ideas. We connect diversity to outcomes: teams that mirror customers make smarter choices, move faster and create products people actually use.
Looking ahead, we dive into hyper‑personalisation beyond one‑off campaigns and the promise of GenAI to accelerate content, support and colleague tools—always paired with human empathy for complex moments. The biggest challenge? Pace. Balancing ambitious roadmaps with commercial reality, prioritising ruthlessly, and revisiting assumptions before they ossify. Expect practical lessons on stakeholder buy‑in, outcome‑led planning, and the courage to pivot when facts change.
If this conversation gives you ideas for your own roadmap, share it with a colleague, hit follow, and leave a quick review—what’s the smartest pivot you’ve made lately?
Visit AND Digital's website here for the latest episodes and to stay informed.
Follow us on:
Linkedin: and_digital
X: AND_digital
Insta: and.digital
Welcome to our podcast, Being a Digital Leader: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly of Digital Transformation. I'm Zoe Kelleher, a club exec for AND Digital in one of our London clubs, Club Valerie. And I'm delighted to be here today with um Rebecca Hosgood and Di Spindley from Curries. So before we get into things a little bit more about the good, the bad, the ugly of digital transformation, Di, would you like to introduce yourself and then Rebecca?
Di:Yeah, thanks, Zoe, for having us here. So very excited to be here today talking to you and with Rebecca. It's great to do this together. I'm Di Spindley. I'm head of delivery at Curries in our technology team, responsible for transformation across our retail and channels business, also our technology and enterprise services, which will be HRP poor finances, and then also supply chain and contact centres. So nice and busy. And then in my spare time, I'm an avid marathon runner, and if I can do that with travel as well, that is my happy place.
Zoe:Wow, sounds great, great, except for all the running, but the travel sounds amazing. And Rebecca, welcome.
Rebecca:Hello, thank you for having me. Um so I'm Rebecca. Um I worked at Curies for just over 14 years now. Um, and I spent the first nine of that in the business in the online space, and then the last five years in technology. Um, and I head up our tech strategy and enterprise architecture team at Curies. Um I'm also a member to a very kind but also independent three world uh who very much keeps me on my text.
Zoe:Wow, so it sounds like you're both very busy both inside and outside of work. But let's get into um all things digital transformation, but let's roll things back a little bit and just um if you can talk to us about how you got into tech in the first place. What was your path?
Di:So actually it's a bit of a squiggly line for me. So I've been in technology, um, I started in 2014, and I know that because that's the year I got married, so it's always good to remember where you started. Um, and what really led me into technology was that at that time that was the birth almost of like e-commerce, Amazon, people shopping online and digital. And at that time, you know, it was like the birth of YouTube and all those things, and prior to that I was working at Disney um in consumer products, loving life, and working with creative designers, studio, graphic design, and things like that. So very different to technology. But I found that whilst I was doing that and I loved the role, actually what was really inspiring was what was happening in digital. And because I was in project management, I looked to a friend that had his own company, Digital Company, and said, I'd really like to understand a little bit more about digital. What does it mean to develop apps and what what does this mean? And could I have a career in it? And he very kindly um allowed me to do some work experience there where I did an app with The Guardian and found actually transferable skills into technology. There were they weren't massively dissimilar to working with creative people as in developers as well. And then I got recruited to work at Merlin Entertainment, so still stayed within the media and entertainment sector, which was great for me because I understood the business, which was super helpful, but then had a complete baptism for in terms of technology, infrastructure, IBM, whitelisting things, and yeah. But from then I've absolutely loved it because the variety and the breadth of what you can do across technology is phenomenal. And I've been really lucky to work in some great companies, MBC Universal, and then also now at Curry's, and every role has been completely different. So from application development into infrastructure, e-commerce, and transformation as a whole, I think the breadth has been really great, and I think that's what keeps me in technology because it's always evolving, it's always changing, and I've grown so much through that time, and I love how much it impacts and ever our everyday life. It's so interconnected to what we do, and so that keeps me keeps me going.
Zoe:Yeah, and there's never any shortage of learning, right? Because as you say, it just all changes so fast, it's very exciting a lot of the time. Yeah. Thank you, Di. What about you, Rebecca? How did you get into it?
Rebecca:Um, so I sort of fell into technology. As I mentioned, I spent 10 years or just under in the econ business and I actually started online marketing. Really thought I wanted to go into sort of digital marketing space. Spent a couple of years doing that, which was fantastic. Um, gave me a really good foundation in the commercials, the acumen, driving traffic, conversion, um, hitting sales targets. Um, but I craved the the more fast-paced change and innovation and and really being able to, and I'm so therefore I moved into project and program delivery, had a great old line manager that gave a chance on me. Um, and I moved into that space and then just progressed. Um, and I just instantly loved it. I loved the variety, mixing with lots of different stakeholders, and the ability to really show the impact of what you were doing on the young consumer. Um, and so then literally my team was moved from online into technology. Um, so curry is made. At the time, Dixon's Carf made a practice choice to bring together all of our change capability from across the business, and at that time I was heading up our digital delivery across our websites, our mobile app, our in-store assisted selling platforms, looked after user testing and our sort of agile centre of excellence, and so that got moved into technology, um, and so that was me sort of falling into technology. Um, but it's been great, and I think what is really good when you look back is you really understand the skills you learn in the business, yeah, are just so valuable when you have a role in technology because you understand your uh your stakeholders, you understand what they're trying to achieve, and you're also close to the customer. And I think then that's what's kept me extremely passionate about what we do today is about being able to actually see that tangible impact. Um, and so a lot of for me, the thing that most excites me about being in technology now is that using that technology to really drive benefits for our customers or our colleagues.
Zoe:Now, and from what you were saying, two things that have jumped out a the variety, I think that's what keeps us all in tech, and the fast pace and the ever-changing world that we're living in, but also that both of you were given opportunities within your careers to try something different, and I think it's a reminder we'll come to diversity and um facilitating support for career for for other people's careers, but it's really important to actually listen and give people the opportunity because you never know where they'll end up anyway. I've gone on a sideline already, so let's move on. And um, what would you say has been the biggest barrier or challenge of your career to date? Shall we start with you, Rebecca, this time?
Rebecca:Yeah, so I think um I'll talk probably a bit about how growing a career in one company.
Zoe:Okay.
Rebecca:Um, I think often when you're growing up, you sort of think, Oh, I'm gonna move around a lot. And I guess when I was a naive graduate and I joined Curries at the age of 22, I probably I felt that was my path. Um, but I've been extremely lucky that I've had lots of people that have championed me and given me opportunities as we've gone along in order to be able to grow a career at Curries. Um, but what that also comes with is then having to sort of shed your skin because as you grow, you become different people, you learn different things, um, and a lot of the people that are your stakeholders knew you as that 22-year-old. And so, actually, a lot of what you're doing is kind of reinventing yourself, shedding that skin as you go through, and I think it gives you an environment where you can fail, learn, grow, and you've got this massive support network around you because you've got a load of people that want to see you do well because they feel they've been part of your journey and your career, but also it means you've got a lot of people that sort of some sometimes can think, oh no, they're not capable of that, and so I think you have to put a lot of intentional effort into sort of focusing on doing a good job, and it sounds very basic, but to show that you've got the skills and the capability to step up to that next level or take on this new project or lean in and help a colleague. Um, so yeah, I think that's been probably one of the biggest challenges.
Zoe:Yeah, I can imagine, but also incredible to look back and see what you've achieved from going in as that 22-year-old uh to where you are today. So it's a really fantastic story. Um, and I think for me, when you're in a company, as long as your role evolves and you're learning all the time, right? That's motivation to stay and you're also earning the right to move through and do different things within the company. Di, what about you? Any challenges or barriers that you can share in terms of your career?
Di:I think similar to Rebecca, like the reinvention, I think is really interesting because I spent quite a long time in consumer products. So I was 10 years at Disney, and then when I moved into technology and then worked at NBC Universal, a lot of the people that I worked with at Disney had also moved to Universal but within consumer products. So they knew me as Di who wasn't married at that point in time and actually worked in the creative studio, ran that studio and worked in consumer products. So they really struggled with me being the technology and they were like, How have you done that? Like, how different is that, and how have you pivoted? And so I think it's really interesting when people that you know and know you see you in a different light and have to almost like context switch themselves to understand how you've grown and how your career's changed and developed. Um so that I think is really interesting. That I think we share that, even though I've moved companies. But I think probably the most interesting thing, I wouldn't call it a challenge, but when I did join Merlin and I was getting married, I did have the feedback from one of the senior leadership team in a in a different, he was outside of technology, and he said to me, Oh, now you're getting married, I suppose you're gonna like have children, and maybe like you'll be thinking about slightly differently about your career. And I think what's really interesting about that is that my husband and I opted to not have children, and actually we're very career-driven, but that doesn't mean that we're not maternal, and like you know, I love my niece and nephew, and things like that. But I think that expectation of women to be a certain way or to adopt a certain role in the workplace or in the home is is quite interesting to me, and I think that's starting to evolve now. So I love the conversation around actually, you can still be a woman and maternal, but opt to not have children. I think that's really interesting as we evolve into the workspace, and I I like that we're talking about that more, and I think that's really interesting because I think there's been a lot of great work done on having careers as mothers and coming back to work and being carers, but actually being a woman in the workplace opts to not do that, still means you're having a fulfilled life and things like that. So I think that as a as a woman is interesting for me to see that. So I don't think a challenge necessarily, but just an interesting observation.
Zoe:Yeah, and we will talk about that in a little bit, just in terms of um being a woman in the workplace, but just uh to build on what you've been talking about in terms of those challenges and what's come out is how you've both had to reinvent yourselves in some way. Um, how have you done that? Like what are the practical is there any practical sorry, I know I'm throwing in a bit of a left-field question, but I'm just thinking personally, one of the things I've had fed back to me is that I don't PR myself enough. And so I've had to try and learn over the years to shout a little bit more about the stuff that I am doing and push myself forward a little bit. But is there anything in practical terms that has helped with that reinvention or just to establish you in different roles throughout your career?
Rebecca:I think there's probably two things that that spring to mind. Um, one is I guess I guess yes, around your I don't want to make it sound too cheesy, but having an intentional view of your brand. What do you want to be known for? Why do you think you're different? What stands you apart from your peers? Um, and being able to clearly articulate whatever role or next role you want to do, how do you drive value? Because I think that's where a lot of opportunities evolve from if you can show you're having driving value or impact. Um, the other piece for me is also think or that's something I've done, is thinking about what you want to do next, and then really thinking about what are the the skills you need to do to get that you want to get, and therefore what roles can do that, and then actually tell people about it because I think a lot of it is about having conversations with people, yeah, um showing your thought leadership, showing how you've evolved as a person, what you want to do next, the skills you've learned, and it's those conversations, those networks, those connections that then sort of people go, ah Rebecca's now brought something else to the table, or oh, she now she does understand about this area of the business, or oh, she has grasped that concept, and that's the thing that I think then changed people's mindsets, and it's it's not just one conversation, it is multiple conversations, and I think it takes time, but that along with as I mentioned before, just doing a good job. Um, people want you then to they they want to give you the new opportunity because they know they know you're going to do a good job trying to have it.
Zoe:Yeah, exactly. And sometimes it's hard when you're doing the good job to lift yourself above all of that and really focus on looking forward and what you want to do next, etc. So it's not that easy to do both things at well.
Di:And I think you do a fantastic job, Bex, of doing that. Like you're very intentional in like your next steps and your career and your role and what you want to do. And I think it's really nice that you're, you know, very motivated in that space, and I think that's probably where I'm a little bit more different. So when I joined Disney, that was you know, I wasn't meant to be there, I was meant to go for like a temp job for a couple of weeks, and I ended up being there for 10 years. But the reason I stayed for so long and then and I had lots of different roles within there, and then pivoted into technology was the curiosity. So I think by nature, just being curious about how does a business work, how do you like take a bit of code and then create something that then becomes an iPhone or something that someone is then using to improve their everyday life, and actually being intentional around like how does that work? And asking lots of curious questions around developers or how's the infrastructure work? Like, what is the cloud? It's not that up there in the sky, is it? And like, how do those things work? And I think when you start to show interest and start to talk to people, they start to understand that well, you're actually asking because you care, and therefore that helps you to do a better job. And to your point, because I think you then start to become known to do a good job, you're really varied in your approach, you're asking really good questions. That is then showing in the results that you have and like a more holistic approach to what you're doing, and then I think your network is really key, like having really good conversation with people and being intentional around, you know. I always wanted to work in the US, and when that opportunity came, I told enough people about it, and I was very vocal. I'm sure Bex won't be surprised to hear. I'm like, I really want to work in the US, and if an opportunity came up, please think of me. And it did come up, and I I spent a year living in LA, and I think if you can put yourself out there, it's almost like manifesting, you know, say what you want, be intentional, and but then also say yes to opportunities that maybe you wouldn't necessarily say yes to. The reason I ended up at Merlin was because I picked up the phone to a recruiter that called me a couple of times, and I was like, normally I don't pick up the phone, but I was like, let me just have this conversation, and then it's completely 180 my career, and it just has made such a different difference, and like doors open, and I think when you're curious and you build good network and you're you're good at what you do because you care, I think it makes a difference, and people see see that.
Zoe:Yeah, love that. So it's a bit of a combination of being intentional but also be curious and take those chances sometimes, right? Bet on yourself, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Bet on yourself. Um, right, let's move on. So, tech remains a very male-dominated industry. I'm sure we can all see that in our everyday jobs, and things are starting to change. Um, but could you both share a little bit about your personal experiences as women in leadership roles and how you've seen diversity and inclusion in Curries?
Di:I actually really think Curries do a fantastic job of diversity and inclusion. And I think when I joined the team at Curries five years ago, I was the only, I was the only girl on the team, and now Bex has joined and it's great. And I think actually, more broadly across technology, we're definitely seeing like a more women coming into leadership roles, and I think some of that is because people are intentional, and that's not to say that we are going to hire women over men, it's always the best person for the role, but I think there's just an opening of opportunity to say, let's bring in talent, let's see what people can offer, and having a women's network, I think, has been a really good opportunity to do that. So the women's network started two years ago at Curry's, it's one of our one of four employer relation groups that we have. But what's been really special about that, alongside like kind of working with Rebecca and the team, is I co-chair it too, which is nice. But we're working with lots of different areas of the business, so it isn't just corporate, it's actually supply chain, it's retail, and we're connecting as women and understanding each other what we're doing there. And off the back of that, you're having those conversations in the networking, understanding where your interests lie, and actually, as part of that, you can then start to have different roles and opportunities and career conversation about where you want to go, which is quite nice. And I think we're starting to see more women wanting to come into technology because part of what was great about the women's network that we did last year was we were at Karen Brady and we had a stool, we had a stand there, and it was a really good opportunity for us to showcase that Curries is also a technology company. So, yes, we sell technology and we're a retailer, and that's you know, we have everyone enjoy amazing technology, and that's what we want to do. But actually, as an organization, we are very technology focused and driven, and it was a great way to showcase that we had lots of women on the stand, which was great, at a women's event saying, look at all the breadth of careers you can have within technology at Curries, whether it be in delivery, engineering, operations, and I think that's really exciting. I think curries are doing a good job of promoting themselves as an employee for everybody and actually a diverse group of people, not just women, but actually the diversity across age, region, gender, etc., is brilliant. I think they're doing a great job there.
Zoe:Yeah, I mean the the huge breadth of careers that are available in tech, like most people don't know the breadth of careers, so having those opportunities to see that. And we talked the other day, Di, about the importance of those women networking groups and just how inspirational it can be to have a conversation with a female leader in your field. Rebecca, what about you and your personal experience of being a female leader in tech?
Rebecca:So I think, as um Di said, we are lucky at Curries that the representation across women, but also more broadly is slowly evolving at Curry's. Um and I think um I would agree with Di. I'm not I'm not someone that's a fan for targets because I do think it's super important that whatever role anyone is given, they're getting it done on their um their credibility and their ability to do the job. But what I think is so important is that you're having the conversation and it's front of mind of people when they're looking to recruit because you have a lot of um biases that you're unaware of, and so you have to intentionally we keep using that word, be aware of those potential biases to be able to counteract them, and so I think it's really important, and actually, things like the women's network and other networks we have, like Embrace, um, are really important at bringing that to the forefront of the mind, having those conversations, a lot of it is great also because they bring a lot of external speakers, yeah, and so it validates a lot of the conversations we have, it opens it up to wider audiences, um, and so I think that's super important. And for me, that the whole value of the diversity is is is twofold, really. One, it's about having making sure we have people with diverse opinions, appetite to risk, culture, background, so you're actually getting to the right outcomes for the business, um, and it's proven that you get better results with diverse teams, but also ultimately our curry's customer is very diverse, and so it's really important we represent those customers so that we understand their needs and that we really can put our customers first because we understand them, and that's one of Curry's key key values. And so I think it it what's nice is that there's multiple pronged approach at Curry's that does sort of bring it together constantly reinforces the message, and so I'm very positive around the trajectory that we're going in. Um but there is a lot more to do, and I it is a shame when you go to some external events, probably more traditional tech leadership events, they are very male-dominated.
Di:I went to one event and there was a queue for the men's toilet, and I breezed into the women's toilet, and I've never seen that before ever. It was the first time I'd seen it, and I was like, that just shows you in a room full of people, there was like literally a handful of women, and then the queue is just men, and I was like, there is absolutely work to do. But I like the awareness piece that's happening at the moment, like people are talking about it, which is great. And I think the more you talk about it, the more it becomes top of mind, just naturally and kind of by osmosis. And I think making sure that you're creating a culture where you can be inclusive, people can be their authentic selves is also really important because Bex, when you talk about like having those diverse teams where you get diversity of thought, the magic source starts to happen, right? Because people are coming feeling psychologically safe to share their different views and their opinions. That's when you can start to unlock different ways of working, different ways of thinking, creating that newness, creating the innovation, which then drives a better product and experience for both colleague and customer. And I think that's where some of the magic really happens. And I love that we can see that at work, like, especially when you're in person, it's almost like you can feel the frizzle of energy when you're in a room like whiteboarding and everyone's like, Yeah, we could do this. And it's nice when you watch people open up that are sometimes quieter. And then, like I see it with some of our um like solution architects, when they're in a room and they like start to really get excited by something, and I'm like, Yes, please geek out and do that more because like then they're whiteboarding and you can see all the the thoughts coming through, and I think it's a really exciting, it's exciting to be part of that. I think I really like that.
Zoe:Yeah, and it sounds amazing at Curry's, and you know, creating a culture that is truly diverse and inclusive is is hard to do because you can bring people into a business, but then you also have to have the right structure within the business right through every process and everything that you do to actually drive that feeling of inclusion and belonging. So it is really difficult. So it sounds amazing, and long may that continue at Curry's.
Rebecca:I think the big single biggest thing for me that helps this is flexibility. Yeah, and so our curries hybrid working policy is you sort of from a minimum of two days a month, and so it gives people from across the business flexibility to be able to show up, be their authentic self, not worry that they've got to compromise on certain things at home. And I really think that means that they can be from different locations across the country. You you open yourself up to a wider device of whether that's mums that have to do the school pickup, whether that's um people that are caring for elderly parents, whatever it may be, as you go through life, things constantly change, and I think everybody needs a degree of flexibility, and it might ebb and flow. Um, and so actually having that built into the curries ethos and way of doing things, um, I think is a really big uh part of actually us being able to promote a lot of these things because it really does enable it. Um so that's something I'm super passionate about.
Zoe:Yeah, and it sounds like even when people come together, then whatever you're doing remotely is really working because actually when they get in the room, then that what did you call it? Frizzle? Frizzle of energy is there, and uh that's fantastic.
Di:Sorry, Day, what can you say? No, I was just gonna say that we did an interesting exercise as part of our delivery team and we mapped where people were in the country, and there's such a nice spread now of people like coming from the north, the Midlands, it's not just in London, and so the fact that Bex, because of our flexibility, you can recruit talent from everywhere. We're not limited to you know one particular pocket of the country, I think is really important. I think that promotes the diversity, and actually, we're quite intentional in that, and it comes from like the leadership and all the levels in between as well. And I think they really do live the values that they they speak about. It's not just a tick bock exercise, it actually feels real.
Rebecca:Yeah, and then when you come together in the office, and we do takeover days and team days and workshops, I think that's where the energy does to come together. Everyone knows there's a really clear purpose, there's an agenda, it's really well organized, everyone's sort of coming, you're quite excited you're going into the office and you're getting that sort of interaction, um, that social buzz, that frizzle, that's gonna be our new word. Um, and so actually, it really works for us. Um, and so um, yeah, it's um it's a great place to be at the moment. Yeah, definitely.
Zoe:And that's the key, it works for for you and it works for curries, and every organisation is different, and I suppose, in terms of finding that way to drive that diversity and inclusion, will be different for every company, and you have to find what will work for you. Right, let's focus on some highlights now. So, thinking back over your careers, what are some standout projects or achievements that you would like to share? Will we start with you, Di?
Di:Yeah, um, I would like to go back to a non-Curries one. So, when I was at Merlin Entertainment, which was my first forum to technology, we had a ticketing programme that we rolled out, and we were a very small team and it felt like family. Um, and it was my first big program of work that we did, and it was to roll out a new ticketing platform across all of our sites, and that included brands like Sea Life, um, Legoland Discovery Centres, and we travelled all around the US. It's a little group of us that would go together, and we did over a hundred attractions, I think it was 114 attractions in 18 months. We drove lots of revenue streams off the back of the ticketing and implementing that new system. And I loved it because A, we felt like family, B, we were traveling all the time, and it just the energy was so different, and we we felt like there was nothing we couldn't do, and so all the problems that we like stumbled across, we worked through as a group, and I think it was really nice from a collaborative perspective because it was technology working alongside marketing, working alongside an attraction like in the business, working alongside finance, and actually everyone coming together. And don't get me wrong, it wasn't without its issues and challenges, and it was definitely, you know, I was traveling every four to six weeks in a different state in the US, but the way that we came together was really important. I think we got something really tangible at the end of it for the customer. The website looked fantastic, it was driving good revenue, good ticket sales. We were averaging the basket, and we were, you know, we were doing lots of add-on um opportunity there as well. But I think for me, just that like I was like, wow, this is what it's like to be in technology, and actually you can see the change. Like, you know, Beck, she talks about being at the forefront and seeing the impact of the customer and seeing the ability of them to have a really good day out with their families and to really make the most of their experience and their time was great. And to see that it was so fast, and then we saw the impact on the revenue say commercially was brilliant as well. But all of that came together packaged, along with the feeling that you were part of something special was a really special time.
Zoe:Wow, I want to be part of that team. It's amazing. But as you say, the collaboration and getting to a point where you're a high-performing team because of the way you're working, and then seeing that impact is is phenomenal. It's fun. Rebecca, what about you?
Rebecca:Um, I'm gonna take a slightly different lens on it. So I'm gonna talk a bit, I think one of the my sort of programmes that went well was that I'm gonna talk about the scoping of a program. So that's sort of from a conception of an idea through to sort of getting uh exco and then board approval. So we had a an aging, um many people say legacy, we quite like the word heritage. Um that makes it sound very nice.
Zoe:Rebrounding.
Rebecca:Yeah, I've I've stolen that with pride from someone else. I'm gonna take no credit for that one. Um uh our online uh web platform, um, and it was um an old French platform, so some of it was written in French, and it had five decimal places. It was um it was it was great. I mean, it did a good job, and we called it Nemo. Um, and basically, um we we started from the very beginning of we need a new web platform, um, and we scoped a big omnichannel front office program to move to Salesforce, which is the platform we have today. And I think going through that process of it's a little idea to what does it look like, what are the benefits, um, how's it going to deliver on your vision? What's your commercial levers? What capability do you need? What's your roadmap? And then really the stakeholder engagement and buy-in, and taking people on that journey from oh, maybe we should do this too. Actually, I'm going to sign up to a multi-million pound program that is going to be very difficult, very challenging, um, but probably a lot of fun and ultimately drive a lot of good results. I love that process. Um, I think understanding what people want from a program, um, where you can make the biggest impact, what questions you need to answer as you go through that process, um, I think it's really good. And I think it's often a bit of a project that's probably overlooked or seen as less complicated. Um, and sometimes I think it can be because the delivery can be extremely challenging. But getting everybody around the table to agree to something, buy into something, and actually say yes, um, I think there's a real um there's a real Sense of achievement when that happens. And so and then we launched about 18 months later. And we're still on the Salesforce platform today. And it really has allowed us to sort of choose supercharge our online business and platform from something that was we were sort of quite worried and concerned about being aging and heritage. And now we've got a scalable and performant platform.
Zoe:Amazing. And even you know everything you talked about, I mean, you talked about when you first started at Curries and some of the skills that you learned around stakeholder management and engagement, and like they are the key skills that you need in in tech, all around whether you're working with stakeholders in your business, with suppliers, with clients in my case. But it's so important to understand what they really want out of it so that you can take them on a journey. But it also helps manage things when they go a little bit wrong, right? So it's really really key always guaranteed. Fantastic. Both very different stories but demonstrate the the highs and how they can come in in the career in your career and in the workplace in very different ways. So on to the the good, the bad and ugly of digital transformation now. This is what we're here to talk about. So I'm keen to hear from each of you just in terms of a key moment of success in leading a transformation. Rebecca, shall we start with you?
Rebecca:So for me I think um one of the times at Curry's we've had to pivot extremely quickly and rapidly is during the pandemic. Yeah. And so there was a number of key projects that we worked very closely on to get over the line in an extremely short period of time. And I think for me it was an incredibly difficult time for the nation and for people personally. But there was a real sense of rallying together knowing you had to get stuff done and that was because from Curry's perspective one day we'd gone from 30% of our revenue just under trading through websites to actually being it's the only channel that's available and it's an 100% and all of our stores were closed. And that's crazy to think about that now right it is you often reflect back and you go how did that happen? And so at Curry's there was a number of things we a number of things we wanted to do but one of them was around how can we open the stores and offer a click and collect proposition that's going to be safe for our customers and also allow us to keep some of our colleagues unfurlow and safe while while interacting with the public. And I think why it was so important is because actually a lot of what we sell washing machines, fridge freezers are actually essential items that people need in their everyday life and also a lot of it is laptops and stuff for kids that needed to be able to do homeschooling whether it was iPads or tablets and and laptops. So actually there was a real sense of we need to stay open we need to be able to provide people with this tech to enable their lives during a very difficult period. And so we managed to implement sort of a contactless click and collect version working with a a supplier that allowed you to rock up to place your order online rock up to curries pull into a parking bay scan a QR code the pop your boot and a curries colleague would run out pop it in your car and you could sort of go off and so that was something we managed to roll out within three weeks and I think that's one of the things that was sort of most when I reflect back sort of most rewarding because of the sort of alignment to be able to help people in that time so so that was a real um a real great opportunity.
Zoe:Yeah amazing because obviously it's an unimaginable situation that nobody could have ever really thought through and then in the moment and as you say within three weeks you were able to do something that actually touched people's lives and made a big difference at a very stressful time.
Di:Dianything you could I think linked linked to what Bex has just shared like I joined Curries in COVID so I joined in November of 2020 and when I joined Aaron had buddied me up with Bex which was great and at the time Shop Live was being released as a POC and Bex was handing that over to me and Shop Live was again similar to what Rebecca had said around being in store it's a colleague in a store that a customer could use your laptop or phone into the store and you could have a live video one way so the customer could see the colleague but the colleague couldn't see into the customer's home and you could have a direct video call so it felt like you were in the store with a colleague they could show you around products they could demo things for you and you could then make a purchase and they would ship it to your house and so that was called Shop Live and that was the first project I worked on in Curries taken over from from Bex and we productionised that basically and rolled that out to all of our stores across the UK and Ireland and then that became Repair Live which was the way you could also take the same technology video technology and if you've got an issue with your washing machine your TV or your laptop you could again go online click Repair Live and it would take you through to an engineer that you could talk to show them what was going on with your product and they would walk you through how you could solve that if they couldn't solve it you could send that in and they would help repair it for you and that has been such an innovative piece of video technology and ways to interact with people that felt like you've been served from the comfort of your own home protecting people but still keeping the business running and then actually how you could evolve that POC into something more that was able to to sustain and we still use Soda and repair live in our in our LUC centre because I I'm a big fan of user experience and solving real customer problems and these are both great examples of where you've identified a need and delivered on it.
Zoe:What about any situations where you had to rethink something do you have any examples of that?
Rebecca:I've got quite a few I think which is good I think it's a good thing because I think you I mean things are constantly changing. We've talked about how rapidly technology is but also retail as an industry and therefore things are constantly changing and I think it's really important that you can reflect back and say oh what I did six months ago maybe even two or one isn't where it needs to be now and we need to pivot or evolve. So I I I only ever see that as a positive thing. And and so one of the areas we had and a program we decided to pause was we've got our own in-house built returns and repair system that we use today and there was a big appetite internally in order to look at external suppliers and providers and see um who in the market could look to do that. And so we did a scoping exercise we looked at vendors we worked out who it is and I think from a um maybe sort of single digit transformation it went to multi-digit very relatable for anybody that's doing these types of programs and I think what it made us do is really go do is this what we want to do? Does the business case make sense? Is it really going to supercharge us and and put us where we want to be or actually what are the alternatives can we do nothing in this case we didn't want to because it's such an important part of our business as Di mentioned repairs is um we have a large operation in Newark and it's something we are very proud to offer our customers to be able to keep items sold and support our customers in their home and and so we actually we made the decision to actually pause that program and instead invest a small amount of money into our existing systems. How can we modernize what we have today and over the last 18 months or so we've moved the the platform into the cloud we're looking at consolidating modernising the integrations and APIs and actually that was the right the right route forward for us. And so I think for me it's about taking those moments of pause making sure you reflect and then moving forward and not being not seeing it as a failure that you have to change direction or pause something you thought two months ago was really important because things change and and you have to make sometimes those difficult decisions or what feel difficult at the time but when you reflect back you know are the right decisions.
Zoe:Yeah and ultimately if you're clear on the outcomes there's always different ways of getting to those outcomes right it's about looking through different lenses to you know balance and check what you're doing which is obviously what you did and it's been a success. So Di do you have anything to share I do yeah like so similarly to Beth I think it's about the pivot.
Di:So we're doing a large transformation at the moment where we're exiting our data centres and moving everything to the cloud which in and of itself is is a huge undertaking but I think as part of that some assumptions we made 18 months ago just around some of the migration methods that we were going to use for some of our core applications has proven actually to not be suitable. So we've had to pivot within that time and say actually what we thought in the beginning doesn't work and how can we do this differently? A because the technology's moved on in some respects B because actually our heritage systems are a little bit older and they're a little bit harder to move and so actually some of that more modern technology in terms of migration or replatforming isn't going to be suitable. And so to pivot and still protect the business be able to move it safely and to do that within a time you know still a very short time frame and try to keep within budget is not easy but I think sometimes you have to do that right and you have to check yourself and just as you're going through particularly long programs of work still coming back to the business case the scope the commercials does it still make sense is what we assumed at the beginning still the correct technology and the path that we want to use and if it is brilliant and if it's not pivot and I think that's it's a good thing to do for the business for the customers and I think that's that's something that I've really enjoyed learning actually is that there's no failure in that there's growth in that and actually just understanding that we don't have to be tied to one way of working and that's I think the diversity of thought different ways of doing things and opportunity come and I think technology enables you to to to pivot actually and I think that's really nice.
Zoe:And also that agile mindset recognising you know that you don't have to go along one path as I said if we get to the right outcome then that's what matters at the end of the day. Right I'm going to move us on because I think we could um talk all day um I'm gonna skip now to what excites you about the next three to five years um both for Curries but also the broader industry and and tech in which we all work. Rebecca would you like to go do I keep picking on you?
Rebecca:Sorry I I think you've done a good job I think okay flicking between the two whoever goes first. So I think I mean it it's an extremely exciting time I think to be in technology at the moment and in Rita more broadly there's a there's a couple of things that probably stand out for me. And none of these themes will be net new but I think what's important is they've been around for a while but I haven't seen anyone do it with real ease or scale and so I really believe there's more to go after. So I think there's a piece for me about hyper personalisation at scale so really trying to get to that one-to-one personalised journey for our customers. At the moment we can do it on sort of campaign basis and things like that but I really think I haven't seen any retailers out there doing it at scale across all their customers and I think there's some really good new platforms and technology along with Genai that is allowing us to really hopefully scale that. So I think that's super exciting both from a retailer's point of view or more broadly in the industry but also from a consumer's point of view because I think it's you want to be served content that's relevant. Yeah. And sometimes it gets quite frustrating when it isn't.
Zoe:We're all very impatient now because we know what we can get.
Rebecca:Well exactly exactly and and actually that's a good point it's about then making sure you're learning from other industries because the consumer expectation and what they're getting used to and getting acclimatised to is ever increasing. And then the other piece for me is probably the Gen AI and that's no surprise. But I think for me it's about how do we balance then what Gen AI is going to evolve to do over the next two to three years and how you balance that automation with that human touch and where do you draw in the line and so I think there's a huge opportunity and and you probably can't even fathom how big that opportunity is really in the next two years and how quickly it's going to move. But I think for me it's about um how do you make sure where you need to you keep that human touch and you use Gen AI to sort of really help with those more automated manual repetitive tasks. But then you still have that colleague or human at the end of the telephone that can support you if needed because there is things that humans still do today whether it's complex problem solving empathy compassion that really I do think it's important that we still have that sort of connection and community but I think they really both of those elements really offer us a great opportunity in the future to really improve that customer and colleague experience.
Zoe:Amazing. Di what about you what what are you excited about in the next three to five years?
Di:Slightly different to Rebecca but connected um I love sport and I think the evolution of sport and technology and media coming together is really exciting and so when I think about how that can change the experience of going to a gym which is becoming more of a wellness centre where you can also do your work and you can have the human connection but it's personalized to your workout or your goals and how you use that technology and brands coming together to build that customized experience that you're talking about and that personalization that you need is really exciting and I know lots of people into wearables right now and there's lots of data coming through but it's not enough I don't think just to have like your watch or your pellet on like people want community and connection and I think technology has done a fantastic way of like bringing everyone together but it's also created this dichotomy of like loneliness as well so I think when you bring the media sportness tech together in these centres that could be coming around and I think that's what's exciting because no one really knows how it's going to evolve but it's changing rapidly so you know not long ago everyone was crossfitting now it's high rocks now it's like well high rocks plus wellness centre and like recovery pools and swimming and then oh can I also work there and can I get a really good meal and can I interact with people how does that drive my personal agenda to overall wellness and but then technology's at the heart of it and I think it's almost like underlying it's not maybe as obvious but I think that's where some of the excitement is for me in watching how brands and collaborations evolve and change the landscape using the technology to create the personalization to create the wellness to create the life that we're all like coveting and creating now but tech at the heart of it.
Zoe:Wow I mean it sounds it feels like we're quite far off that right but the opportunity is there because not only do brands and organizations that sport etc have to come together but also then companies like you and I work in also have to buy into that lifestyle and different way of working as well right but it does feel like we're ripe for that kind of thing as well post-COVID that we've all separated quite a lot and we need things to bring us together in again in a human um and community based fashion. It's exciting yeah got me excited I I've bought in um right I'm gonna move now to the biggest challenge over the next few years that either of you um foresee.
Di:Di we'll start with you this time to even it out I think the pace at which technology is changing is a challenge and I think when we look at the ambition of Curries and we are really ambitious and how we support our customers and our colleagues in that change the legacy or heritage systems that we work within and transforming that at a pace that is still commercially viable that gives the customer what it wants I think that's really interesting and how we navigate that and look in Curries to do a fantastic job of investing in transformation and Rebecca you talked about it right at the beginning where we changed our online front end platform to Salesforce and I feel like that was like one of the first big transformation pieces we've done and since then Curries have been building on that trying to remove some of the legacy and the heritage applications that we've got to create the newness but balancing that with commercial investment making sure we can still move at pace but then how do we unstitch some of the legacy to bring in the new but keep it pacey as well I think it's it's something that's really difficult to balance and we're navigating through that and I think the more that we evolve and the more new platforms we bring in and the more new technology we bring whether it be with Microsoft and some of the Viva Engage or the CCAS platforms that they've got and we're working with Gen AI with Accenture and building our own amadillo platform where we can engage with customers in a more um interesting way through through the technology I think keeping up at pace with that and then knowing where to pivot and where to go next is going to be really exciting and interesting to watch and as from a delivery perspective also really interesting to navigate. So a positive challenge positive challenge always positive challenge.
Zoe:Yeah well it is difficult because there is so many heritage systems I do like that I'm going to steal that as well um but it's the cost of doing things versus the cost of not doing them right and this is this is an ongoing challenge for everybody and then combine that with what's available in terms of technology and couple that with customer expectations it's definitely a challenge.
Rebecca:It's very exciting um Rebecca probably just to add to Di's point I it's about prioritising. I think there's no end of opportunities and actually for many businesses out there it's a case of what do you actually choose to do and where do you choose to spend your money and I think there is a huge focus on cost at the moment for many retailers because of what's happening with sort of the government and the economy and I think businesses are having to face it into that so there's we talk a lot about our legacy about how can we look to consolidate our tech landscape in order to drive out some of that cost and how can we use things Gen AI to really empower our colleagues to give a better experience and and drive growth. So I think there's a really big focus on that and so picking those use cases picking those opportunities I think is really important and I guess just and therefore making sure you've got the data to be able to do that. And I think what's difficult is because it's so fast paced you don't always have the full picture and all the data and I think so it's how do you gather as much of it as you can to really be able to then balance those more short-term sales driving in-year benefit initiatives versus the some of the tech um tech initiatives that do take longer because of the scale and the complexity of them to be able to unlock the benefits. So it's it's how you balance those two along with the fast-paced innovation.
Di:So it's always back to that COVID POC that we started like we want to talk to and like that ability to get them out quickly to test them, test and learn what works.
Zoe:So yeah so it's gonna be very exciting very fast paced but there's going to be some um yeah some difficult decisions to make I think yeah and you're right that data the use of data is so key because there's so much of it but what is the data that actually helps you drive the right decisions for the business and get you those outcomes so good luck. Right well thank you for sharing lots about curries and I'm gonna swing back to both of you now with a bit more personal focus and I'm keen to hear what advice you might give to your younger self. So Rebecca I don't know whether that's you going into curries as a very happy very happy I don't know whether you're happy or not yeah I would be 2011 there we go. What advice would you give to your young self?
Rebecca:So I think there's a couple of things um we touched on curiosity and asking questions um and so I think that is paramount you've got you've got please ask questions there's no silly question um and and listen I think um as you you you spend longer in your career you realize the power of active listening and I remember I'm sure my nan once said to me you have uh two ears and one mouth for a reason Rebecca and and that is so true and and I think as you um as you start to manage teams um at or you move into new areas of the business or you start your first job listening and and really learning from the wisdom and guidance from others around you is so important. One is be br another one is be brave and give it a go. You will regret not trying it you won't regret giving it a go. Nine times out of ten I truly believe you will actually also succeed you you are far more capable than you think you are other people want you to succeed and therefore give it a go. And then the other one is I tend to say chase skills and not job titles. I think it is very easy to get caught up in to the fact I want this role or I need this title or I need this job. And actually what's important is gathering building out your tool set and your tool belt of all the different skills and things you need so that when the next opportunity comes along or the next role whether it's a sideways move or even downwards depending on where you are in your your life and what's going on in your personal life that you have those skills and those tools to be able to do those moves. And so I think being um seeing that as the thing you should you should follow rather than job titles and is also something I would tell my my younger self.
Zoe:Yeah and it's so true and a lot of what you've just mentioned in terms of skills are those softer skills right to be able to active listen and really hear what people are saying we talked about stakeholder management all of those skills are so important and when you talk about job titles you often don't think about the skills that are really important in order to do those job titles anyway.
Di:Dive what about you I think I think I would tell my younger self that you are creating the life that you have always wanted and you are creating your dream life. So trust yourself and even if things don't feel like they're the right path and know that you are on the right path I think um you know be curious ask for the help and support when you need it from those that love you from those that know you from those that are supporting you because people do want to see you succeed and I think it's okay to go a little bit off piste and to Bex's point you don't have to know what the job title is and I think it's more around go after what you love what you enjoy what you feel that you're good at what you're interested in and keep learning and I think adding tools to the tool belt adding your skills keep evolving and learning is is how we how you're going to be successful I think and that curiosity and leveraging your network and really working with people around you and being vocal about what you want and being true to yourself is is really key and I think be yourself like you are one of one unique limited edition no one thinks like you no one talks like you or says the things that you do so just believe in that and go with that because that will lead you to where you need to be yeah and if you take a wrong step and you end up doing something you don't like I've actually sometimes found those learnings more powerful yeah because knowing what you don't want to do actually can be way more sort of sort of helpful and directional than um than knowing what you do.
Rebecca:So yeah all of those lessons sort of really learn I think to help or really help to come together in where you want to be.
Zoe:And I think having that reflection in every situation and I would say this to people on my team if they're working on a on a client piece that they're not loving like well just think about what you're learning or you know what you've overcome and there's always something that generally feeds into what you whatever you do next. So I think and we've said it many times today there's no one path for everybody we've talked about squiggly careers we've talked about motherhood not motherhood runners not runners but there is there there is no one path and I think that's what you have to remember if that's the advice I could give my younger self I would I would tell myself that. Okay we're going to finish off talking about our and title so for those of you who don't know what an and title is um it is about bringing your whole self to work and each of us at and has a job title but owes her and title. Mine is a wannabe runner so again opposites Di um because I sign up for lots of races with good intentions and very close to where I live unlike you I wouldn't travel for a run. I'll go to one close by but I rarely actually do it. So what would your and titles be? Let's start with Rebecca because you caught my eye sorry okay now that's all good.
Rebecca:So I really struggled with this and so I was googling what an and title should be and the importance of it. I took this very seriously I felt this was the most difficult question that we were gonna get so um what I picked up was I liked the fact your and title can actually change as you evolve as a person and you can change it. And so I really liked that. And so I went I had two but I had and juggling mum because at the moment I have a three year old and so I have a lot of hobbies and passions I like doing as well but I really do feel like there's lots of balls up in the uh air at the moment.
Zoe:The other one is um uh Harry Potter oh Harry Potter I I love a bit of Harry Potter okay and uh so Harry Potter we've won Harry Potter fan I mean I'm also a Harry Potter fan I love the franchise um so I could geek out with you on on that quite a lot but we won't go down that rabbit hole but my and title would be runner in heels because I love running and I also love wearing shoes and so I have deliberately worn heels today. I saw them a lot yeah um so yeah that would be my title because I think it brings together like my kind of corporate more you know my day job and everything but also alongside my love of shopping for shoes and running. Love it.
Di:Perfect I love that yeah quite expiring and title of this one and I'm always happy to come and run with you Zoe so I'll travel to you. Okay I'm happy to be your accountability partner if you want well let's talk about that after Diane.
Zoe:No need to commit to anything wrong with that. Well okay thank you very much I think that's been hugely insightful the experience that you've both brought to the table and to talk about the good the bad and the ugly of digital transformation but I think what I've talked um taken from it is it's hugely exciting and very positively challenging space to work in. So thank you very much for coming in today.
Rebecca:Pleasure Zoe thank you for having us.
Zoe:So that's everything from this edition of the Good, bad and ugly of digital transformation thank you again to Rebecca and Di for joining us on the sofa I've always wanted to say that and for your incredible stories. If you've enjoyed this episode please follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you'll always know when there's a new episode to enjoy. Thank you
