#29: Chris Burris on Creating Healing Circles – IFS Group Therapy and the Power of Community

In this episode, I sit down with Chris Burris — senior lead IFS trainer, trauma therapist, and creator of Healing Circles — after spending five days at his home in Asheville, North Carolina participating in one of his experiential trainings. We explore how Chris brought Internal Family Systems into group therapy and how community can become not simply a source of support, but an active part of the healing process. We dig into intention setting, commitment, group “sculpting,” unburdening, and how an intentional community can help us revisit deeply held beliefs about ourselves and other people.

This interview is followed by an audio diary taking you inside my own Healing Circles experience.

In this episode:

• Chris Burris’s path from family systems work to long-term trauma therapy
• A near-death experience and early experiences that shaped his spiritual curiosity
• Why IFS understands the mind as a system of parts, protectors, and exiles
• Moving from “integration” toward becoming a happier inner family
• What unburdening looks like — and how the body can let go
• How a childhood wound around dyslexia can create a lifelong belief
• What “intentional community” means — and why it matters for healing
• How Healing Circles begin with intentions, commitment, and desired outcomes
• The sacred-item commitment and the importance of staying with the group
• “Sculpting” as a live, experiential map of our internal system
• Reworking the belief that other people are dangerous and unpredictable
• Meaning as fully experiencing life while connecting with other people and nature

Timestamps

00:00 — Welcome: Why Groups Can Heal
05:36 — Introducing Chris Burris & Healing Circles
07:35 — Chris’s Career in Trauma Therapy
15:09 — His Mother’s Illness, Near-Death Experience & Spiritual Curiosity
21:16 — How Different Perceptions Shaped His Path as a Healer
24:49 — The Consultation With Richard Schwartz That Changed His Work
27:56 — IFS: Parts, Protectors & Exiles
36:03 — Dyslexia & Unburdening the “I’m Not Smart” Belief
40:28 — Men’s Circles, Mentors & Intentional Community
44:45 — How Healing Circles Begin: Intentions & Commitment
51:25 — Sacred Objects & Committing to the Group
55:04 — “Sculpting” the Internal System With Other People
59:38 — Healing Relational Trauma: Reworking the Belief That People Are Dangerous
1:03:00 — Meaning & Compassionate Presence
1:09:04 — Chris’s Billboard Advice: Make Time for Nature

Learn more about Chris Burris

Website: www.burriscounseling.com — trainings, workshops, and resources

Book: Creating Healing Circles: Using the Internal Family Systems Model in Facilitating Groups

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Developing Meaning is NOT MEDICAL ADVICE and is NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY INSTITUTIONS.

Developing Meaning is produced by Sophie Chen, Anya Kleinlein and Dirk Winter and is a production of Consilient Mind LLC. Theme music by The Thrashing Skumz. 

Transcript

Why Healing Happens In Community

Dirk 0:22

Hello, welcome back, meaning seekers. I'm your host, Dr. Dirk Winter. I'm an MD PhD adult and child psychiatrist and on the psychiatry faculty of Columbia. And I am a fellow meaning seeker. I am a mainstream psychiatrist who has become fascinated with the world of integrative mental health practices. And over the last several years, I have done a lot of trainings in EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, internal family systems therapy, breath, body, mind, ketamine assisted therapy, hypnosis, coherence therapy, focusing, and more. Some people think I am nuts. But I get a lot out of these experiences. In each of them, whether they're in person or online, we gather as a group, form a group, and help each other heal. We pick little problems and we work on them together and create experiential learning and healing communities. And a lot of healing happens, and I walk away with some new friends and interesting connections. Many of them you are meeting on this podcast. And so I have become fascinated with the question of how healing happens and what if a lot of healing happens between us in community rather than inside us as individuals. So for this reason, I am really excited to present to you today's guest, Chris Burris. He is an expert in group therapy and group healing experiences. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist and senior lead trainer in internal family systems therapy. And he is the creator of an IFS approach to running groups, which he calls healing circles. And I traveled to his home in Asheville, North Carolina, and participated in one of these healing circles, experiential groups. I learned how to run them and hope to start running them in my own clinic soon. This was not a lecture didactic experience. This was a get dirty and get into it as a group, healing community experience. At Chris's house with his amazing wife making great lunches for us that we shared. Let me just say for those of you who do not know IFS Internal Family Systems Therapy, this is a therapy approach developed in the 1980s by Dr. Richard Schwartz, Dick Schwartz, who was a family therapist at the time. And he realized in his work that our minds, our normal minds, are actually many different minds running in parallel. That each have little mini sub-personalities and can interact with each other like an internal family. And this is depicted well in the inside out movies, if you're familiar with those. So he started making an internal map and realized that some of these internal neural networks or parts that protect us, some of them carry information about wounds and traumas that we've experienced in the past. And then the therapy approach becomes getting to know our internal parts, assuming that they all have some kind of a positive intention. And when we make friends with our internal systems, our internal conflict settles and we become able to operate in a much more compassionate, curious, calm, uh creative way. If you read any of Richard Schwartz's work, you'll realize he loves alliterations and uses them frequently. If you want to hear more about how this therapy modality works, I did an episode, episode uh 15. And you can also go to the Infraternal Family Systems website. They have lots of resources. So Chris Burris developed a way to apply these IFS principles to group healing experiences. And he wrote a book called Healing Circles, and he teaches trainings. And today you're going to hear his story, and we're going to get into the nuts, nuts, and bolts of how these experiences work. This is an exciting episode. I'm going to follow it up with an audio diary. So you're going to learn hear what's happening inside my mind as I become a participant in one of these healing circle experiences. I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation and learn a lot. So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Chris Burris.

Meeting Chris Burris In North Carolina

Dirk 5:47

Welcome, Chris. I am so happy to see you again and excited to have you on my podcast. And for IFS people, I often start just asking the Tammy Sollenberger question: what do you see out of your nearest window? Where are you located now?

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Okay. Yeah, I'm in my office and I'm in the mountains of North Carolina on the lands of the Cherokee, a place called Dry Ridge. It's Weaverville, North Carolina. The old name of it is Dry Ridge. So outside my window, so I'm up on a little bit of a little bit of a mountain, more like a hill. And outside my window is this really beautiful forest that kind of overlooks a I mean overlooks the mountains. Right now I can see the mountains, but in the summertime it's full of leaves and trees.

Dirk 6:36

And but it's really sort of a beautiful, beautiful outdoor nature is sort of right outside my window. So nice. And I got to visit you and Dina and do your heat healing circles. And we'll talk about that. Outside my window, I see New York City traffic, and it's a sunny day. There's some foliage. And yes, one of my poor layers is wanting more connection with nature and feeling trapped in the city. And so it was really nice to see you in your home. And so I am always curious how people see themselves as like where do you fit into the world, wide world of mental health? What kind of a healer are you? And just to sort of paint a picture of what is your current professional breakdown of a you've done this Healing Circles book and you run that, but what does the life of Chris Burris look like right now? And then I want to get like how you got to where you are

A Long Career Treating Trauma

Dirk 7:38

now.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm entering my 30s, 50 year of being a psychotherapist. I started as a psychotherapist when I was 25 years old and started off as a marriage and family therapist, primarily focused on working with adolescents, is kind of where I began. Pretty soon, probably about a year into my practice, I had lots of individuals. I had some families in adolescence, but my caseload became really quite full with the survivors of sexual abuse. And so I started studying, learning about treating trauma, particularly working with sexual abuse survivors, and have been a trauma therapist. I started learning a parts model when I was about 26 years old and working with resolving, you know, sexual abuse trauma. So I've been a trauma therapist, you know, for most of my career, working with various traumas of uh abuse, neglect, physical sexual abuse. So I've been a trauma therapist for a pretty long time. And then probably about 10 years after I began to work, I met Dick Schwartz and started learning about internal family systems. Was working with a client with very severe trauma and did a consult with Dick at the Family Therapy Networker. And the consult really changed the way I was approaching the trauma work. And then the next year I did my level one training with Dick and Susan McConnell and was invited to be on staff for the next training that was held and then kind of stayed on staff. So I've been teaching internal famous systems for about probably about 20, 23, 24 years. I've been on staff at the institute and teaching internal famous systems. So I've I lead level one, twos, and threes. Currently I'm teaching level two and level threes. I did just finish a level one training that was a specialized training for folks in the First Nations and Indigenous communities. So I just finished a level one training and kind of a specialized specialty training, but mainly teach level threes now for the IFS Institute. And then began to, I've always really loved group work and did a lot of my own healing and group work. So in 2022, I published a book on called creating healing circles using IFS and groups and have been running facilitator trainings for using IFS and groups that I call healing circles for creating healing circles training. So and that's the training you came and hung out with me here in my home office and you know and did a lot of really beautiful work here for teaching facilitators to use spreading control um IFS processes and group therapy.

Dirk 10:27

Yeah, that gives me a nice overview. And so you published that book two years ago and now it's about two and a half years. And now you're training the people in that model.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah, we've we've trained, yeah, we've trained close over uh close to 160 facilitators so far in the last couple years. So yeah, we're currently continuing to provide those trainings.

Dirk 10:53

And you don't do individual do you still see individual clients?

SPEAKER_02 10:57

I have a couple of individual clients that so yeah, I've sort of retired from individual therapy. You know, sitting for seven, eight hours a day, you know, my body just can't do that very much anymore. I just have a couple of individual clients that I'm continuing to kind of could help them complete their work so that they can feel more complete.

Dirk 11:18

And you and Dina have a set of criteria for what you decide to do and what we say yet yes to, and I'm not totally remembering it, but you have something posted. Can you say what those are?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

We we're trying to do trainings that really make an impact that so one is it doesn't have potential to really make an impact. And so my focus a little bit is on building community. So I sort of found it challenging to help people build community in individual therapy. They, you know, read readily available communities that are intentional aren't really built into our society too much. And so making that bridge to building an individual community coming out of an individual focus, I found challenging for a lot of my clients. And so I wanted them to have the experience of sort of being being in an intentional community and that's focused on healing and helping people feel seen and heard and valued. So giving people an experience of being in an intentional community so that hopefully they can make that bridge towards building more community for themselves would be easier than maybe what it's like to sort of come out of individual therapy and then, you know, trying to sort of build a you know, a connect, a connective community that that is focused intentionally on helping them be seen and heard and valued.

Dirk 12:45

So helping to build the bridge a little easier. What do you mean when you say intentional community? What is that?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Well, I think like there's lots of different communities that people are trying to create, but an intentional community is where the focus is really on healing and connection. And so a lot of times when people try to find their way into a community, the intention isn't always on how people show up and how they communicate. And so that's so there's a lot of sort of rewounding that happens when people are trying to find their way, you know, into building a place that has some type of community of connection and belonging. How do we sort of create that? There's certain norms that of kind of how we are together, how we treat each other, where we don't sort of act out in ways that are harmful, but act out in ways that really create belonging and purpose. So that's kind of what I mean by intentional communities.

Dirk 13:43

Okay. And I really want to get into your group work, but the criteria that I was thinking of was is it fun? Does it have an impact? Is it energizing? And you guys, like you're running things in Spain and Egypt, and you have this beautiful house where you invite people in. So you've really built something pretty amazing together with Dina, but I forget now what were those, like you're getting asked to do a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah, I think does it yeah, does it have impact? Is it fun? Does it kind of create aliveness in my system? Do I feel alive? Do I enjoy it? And then does it feel like there is really an impact that has some type of expansion to it?

Dirk 14:31

That feels like a nice set of criteria. So yeah, I'm very impressed with what you've built. I want to back up and get your story of how did you become a healer? What was in the ether, starting with, I guess, when you were so I'm a child and a developmental psychiatrist, so I'm always interested in where were you born and what was in the ether when you were born? What kind of legacy burdens or heirlooms were there that you picked up that kind of sent you in a direction of being a healer?

A Mother’s Near-Death Story

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah. So my my mother became very ill when I was about three years old. She had colitis. And I was just thinking, actually, before coming on the show, I had a memory that that my my mother had a near-death experience. So with colitis, sometimes the enzymes in the intestine can leak into the stomach and cause people to be really ill. So my mother had an episode where a hole had come into her intestines and the enzymes had leaked into her stomach, and so she was very close to dying. And she didn't tell the story very often, but I remember it really vividly that she was on the operating table and had a near-death experience. And in the near-death experience, she experienced the white light and felt very calm and very peaceful in a voice that came in that you know, my my mother equated to the you know, the voice of Jesus. She was a Christian, a person of Christian faith, and that told her that she wasn't finished with her lifetime, wasn't finished, and she sort of came back from the surgery, you know, with the purpose of you know raising me and you know, and finishing her role as a mother. And so that that had a really big impact on me at a young age that that there was kind of something beyond, you know, just this physical form. Wow.

Dirk 16:23

So just to pause there. So she was having uh intestinal surgery for colitis, and she saw this light white light, and the whatever the spirit said, No, it's not your time. Go back and raise your kids. And then you're three at the time, and she somehow communicates this to you?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah, I think I was probably five. She became ill when I was three. I was probably I think this was her second surgery that she'd had. So I was about five at the time that she shared this memory with me. And and she had seven or eight major operations sort of following that. She was very sick until I was up about sixth grade. She finally got things sorted out. But yeah, she shared this memory with me when I was probably about five years old.

Dirk 17:09

And so what did you take away from that? Like how did that impact you?

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, I think the impact was I think I had always had the question, you know, is there something beyond just our physical form? Is there something beyond our intellectual awareness or our perception? So that so that sort of gave me some reassurance that there's something sort of beyond this, you know, cognitive or you know, physical reality. So it was it was pretty affirming that there's there's something else beyond this. You know, for my mother from there's a lot of you know historical and legacy trauma that was also in my mom's family, along with the her illness. So it it created a pretty traumatized person. Um that I grew up with a pretty traumatized person. So I probably spent a lot of my time trying to figure out, you know, like why my mom was the way she was, why she, you know, sort of had fits of rage and was, you know, someone that had a quite a lot of struggle, particularly socially. She had a lot of social struggles. So it's figuring out why people are the way they are and why they behave certain ways and how perception can be sort of vastly altered from the reality of what I was picking up as a child.

Dirk 18:31

Wow, and where was this? What town were you in?

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Or yeah, I grew up I grew up in Avemarl, which is outside of Charlotte. It's about 30 miles outside of Charlotte. I grew up on a farm uh with next door to my grandparents. Um, my father was a bricklayer and bricklaying carpenter teacher, and my grandfather was a farmer and bricklayer, and so I sort of grew up in a very rural North Carolina and I was an only child, so there wasn't a lot of other kids around. So it was spent a lot of time with my mom and my dad and my grandparents.

Dirk 19:04

And so you picked up this faith and this curiosity in people, and how did that then turn into you deciding to get go into social work at 25?

Psychology Religion And Family Systems

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah, well, I went to college and I studied psychology and religion. So I have a degree in psychology and a degree in religion. So I was trying to figure out, you know, really good the psyche, you know, like, you know, how are how those people's psyches work and you know, how this perception, how is it perception? Because my my reality of my mom's reality was really quite different. What she was reading from the world around her, and what I was reading was vastly different from, you know, so we would have family events and she would interpret, you know, certain behaviors from family members in a certain way, and that wasn't my experience at all, you know, growing up. So having reality sort of differences in reality from her perception and my perception, you know, I was I became very curious around like how is that possible? How can two human beings have the same experience, the same interaction, and interpret, you know, quietly, you know, quite oppositely. You know, I saw my grandparents as being very loving and she saw them as being very threatening. So how is that possible?

Dirk 20:28

You're at the family event, you're having dinner, you're both sitting there, and the same s same thing happens, but she interprets it very differently than you. And you pick up on that very clearly.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, I had a I had quite a bit of awareness around social dynamics and people and the people's emotional intentions. So yeah, I was trying to sort out like, you know, is which reality is real, hers or mine? Luckily I decided my reality was more trustworthy.

Dirk 21:03

And so you had this curiosity and you did the so this all makes sense so far, your psychology, religion, and then was there somebody that said, Hey, why don't you do th become a therapist and get this clinical degree? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

I remember graduating and I walked across the stage and I was, and it hadn't really dawned on me before, but I walked across the stage and I'm like, what do you do with a psychology degree? I was like, I don't really know what to do with this. You know, so I was working with youth, you know, in sort of the church and stuff. So it became sort of natural for me to find a job working with youth, you know. So I started working in group homes. The first job I had was youth that had a lot of trauma with violent youth. And that was really the only job I could find. You know, there's they kind of people burn out pretty quickly, so there tends to be a lot of openings for people to work with kids that have some type of, you know, sort of violent behavior. And then I got really curious around like it what didn't really seem to be their fault that they were this way. It seemed to be their parents' fault and the trauma that they encountered as a child, then had to kind of build up their their capacity for violence. And so then I got really curious around family therapy. And you know, it didn't make sense to me to only work with a child. It made sense to try to work with the whole family.

Dirk 22:22

So And you at this point you're already getting your the social work.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Yeah, this was this was sort of post-bachelor's degree. So I worked for about a year and a half before I went back for my master's. My master's was actually in school counseling, and and that was sort of the quickest master's I could get into. And then I got a job at United Family Services, which is a family therapy training institute after my graduate degree. But my focus was trying to get learn how to, you know, to work with the family, you know, from a you know, pretty early age. Yeah, this I didn't have a master's in family therapy program that was, you know, really available to me at the time.

Dirk 23:06

So you were starting out thinking about families, so so systems. You're already a systems thinker, and you're doing, I assume, a sort of a combination of regular talk therapy and CBT and that kind of stuff. And then Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

The United Family Services uh was a family therapy training institute. We had seven AMFT-approved supervisors. We utilized the one-way mirror, so they did a lot of work, you know, behind the one-way mirror. So we were bringing in specialists in trauma and family therapy as a part of the training institute. So I participated a lot in the training institute and we started studying feminist approaches to family therapy. Marion Walters, Lori Leach were so the the family therapy, the feminist family therapists were being brought into the training institute to train family therapists uh in Charlotte where I was working.

Dirk 24:01

So what's different about the feminist family therapy approach? I haven't heard about this.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

The earlier family therapy was built a lot on hierarchy, you know, so establishing this the parental hierarchy. The feminist approach really looked at relationships. It was sort of a competency-based model rather than a deficit model. So we're looking at, you know, just the relationships between, you know, family members, not so much um but didn't have as much behavioralism and hierarchy as you know, some of the early family therapy. So less on hierarchy, more on relationships. So it was a very relational model. Nice.

Dirk 24:37

And then at what point did you encounter IFS? So you told this story if you had a client and you got a consultation from you uh say more about that?

The Consult That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Yeah, I was working with a client. So I, you know, I studied a parts model that was more came from Milton Erickson and study with David Kaloff in the early days of sort of the early MPD models of working with disassociation and disassociative identity. So I was working with a client that had very severe trauma and probably, you know, probably was in a range of disassociative identity with the severity of trauma. And so we'd reached the point, we'd done a lot of really great work and reached the point where in the old models they talk about integration. You know, the idea was that we had sort of a singular personality and that trauma causes us a split from a singular personality, and then integration meant that we were re-reintegrating back into a singular personality.

Dirk 25:35

So so just to pause there, because I yeah, I think this is really cool. So there's this earlier model, MPD, multiple personality disorder, and so you have trauma and dissociation that you're working with, and the old model is integrate. Stick all these different personalities back together into one, and that's where you're at.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, a lot of a lot of folks don't really remember the old models. You know, they're they kind of they weren't quite mainstream. We thought back in the day that MPD or multiple personality was only a very small portion of the population that not that kind of existed in everyone, that we all have sort of a multiplicity of the mind, you know. And yeah, so I was working with a client and was working on sort of integration phase of the work. She'd done a lot of trauma work and and the work has started to kind of go sideways a bit, you know, and there was some decompensation. So I went to the family therapy networker and did a case consultation with Dick. And Dick said, Yeah, we're not meant to integrate. We're meant to kind of be a happy family inside. You know, parts are meant to coexist and you know, kind of have their preferred roles and preferred places in the system. So I went back to my client and apologized. I said, I did this consult and I was thinking that we were working on sort of this integration thing. And, you know, I mean she said, Yeah, my my parents really hate that. They don't like that, you know, and so I apologized profusely and said I didn't know any better and asked if she wouldn't just work on having her parts be in relationship to her and you know, having their preferred roles in her system. And she says, Yeah, that felt feels a lot better. And so to her, she made tremendous strides in her trauma recovery. And she was also very severely sick and got really well and was able to well enough to but we returned her kids home to her, and she, you know, spent the next eight to ten years and you know, being able to see her kids and grandkids grow up, and you know, and so it it really changed the way that I approached trauma work.

Dirk 27:36

Amazing. So you have this very specific example where the work was going sideways, and then you say, hey, no, let's not integrate, let's work with it as a family. So some people who listen might not know what IFS internal family systems therapy is, and also everybody has kind of a little bit of a different explanation.

IFS Parts Protectors And Exiles

Dirk 27:56

So I would love to hear what is IFS.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Well, I think for me, IFS really takes a family systems approach and applies it to the psyche. And so in our psyche, we have aspects of our psyche that are protective and they're protect either through being re reactionary or being preemptive. So we have protectors that are protecting us through a strategy of being reactive or protective. And then we have other parts of our system that are kind of exiled or have or carry vulnerabilities. The IFS calls those exiles. So the younger parts of us often carry burdens, and the burdens are related to a lot of times the beliefs that you hear in, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and those types of things, that those beliefs are held and sort of locked in a traumatic, traumatic events. You know, it's what we call burdens. So IFS works to really help reconnect our the self, herself to those aspects of ourself that have been split off or exiled, and also helping heal those traumatic events or memories that are locked in our bodies, locked with parts. And so the healing process then not only unburdens those parts, but also brings in the residual qualities back into the system. A lot of our protective parts can't really relax or let down the guard of how strong they're trying to protect, as long as these vulnerabilities are alive in our internal system, as long as the burdens are being held. So the protectors sort of stay in these extreme roles. And that's a lot of what we see people kind of coming into therapy with is either the burdens they're carrying or the extreme roles that these parts are acting out in order to try to survive and protect the system. Ultimately, FS helps clients have a much more balanced internal system as well as having what I call self-leadership, where the kind of the core essence is more in the lead of their system.

Dirk 29:57

Yeah, to me, and I think to a lot of people, this is sort of a mind-blowing reframe. And now for me, it seems obvious that our mind has these many different neural networks that are running in parallel. Like if you want AI to be really powerful, you can't just have like one computer that does everything. You have to have little specialized computing units. And our brain is set up like this. And so it's really revolutionary, I feel like, for Dick Schwartz to say, oh yeah, these are we don't have to like blend these all together into like one thing. We can just respect each little unit and then think about how to optimize the system. And then also, so then what are the different types of function of these parts? Some of them are protective, some of them are holding trauma or burden. And then this other quality emerges also, which is sort of big self, which is there's a lot of conciliance, so coming together from different perspectives around this idea that there's a sort of an optimal brain state that's polyvagal, ventral, relaxed, or from Dan Siegel, sort of this plane of optimal possibility, or from the psychedelic world, default mode network. I feel like a lot of different perspectives are kind of coming together and this model fits really well. It's really not accepted, like in in the world that I live in, New York City, Columbia. Like people are like, oh, this is very weird, and where's the evidence? And why aren't you doing CBT or DBT? So I feel like a radical in this world.

Unburdening And The Body’s Release

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Yeah. But I will say, you know, I've been a I entered psychotherapy at 25 with a CBT therapist, did transactional analysis, and and it was helpful. You know, I think it was helpful. I think what was most helpful was I felt seen and heard and cared about, which is kind of that's the research that most, you know, the research is that, you know, it's not so much the model, but the relationship with the therapist, you know, and it was very helpful to me at the time at 25. It didn't resolve the traumas that I carried. So that the those traumas really, and some of the traumas I felt like I was just going to carry my whole life. That they weren't ever, you know, this is just something I'm gonna live with. And I remember doing the my first unburdening with Dick Schwartz in a level one training, and my experience was like, oh my God, like I I'm actually releasing this, and I'm not gonna have to carry it my whole life. And and that was my experience with it as I, you know, I really I reached a level of healing that I wasn't carrying things in my body, in my psyche that I'd already been carrying for, I mean, as I was close to, I don't know, 30, probably 35, 34, 35 at a time. And I had just already resided in the I'll just carry this the rest of my life.

Dirk 33:17

So you're describing the difference between CBT healing and IFS healing and talking about unburdening. So unburdening is when we get permission from protective parts to access the wounded access exiled parts that are holding these extreme emotions or beliefs, and then have this deep connection in a way that then allows it's like almost like a shamanistic ritual where the the burden is released from the system. Can you say more about that? What or maybe specifically that that experience for you? Or however you want to approach it.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

And there's a couple of different therapies that tap into that. Uh IFS taps into the natural healing process, EMDR, somatic experiencing, these models tap into the organic natural healing process that there's a natural process of releasing, and the body kind of knows how to release that. And so by coming to a compassionate presence within with our system, and it initiates that organic natural healing, you know, process of releasing and letting go. So the body naturally knows how to release. And we and I think there's you know lots of evidence around how discharge, how the body sort of naturally knows the discharge. So IFS really experientially initiates that process where we move towards releasing and resolution of traumatic materials. So and the way IFS does it often is to really with fine attunement, fine attunement to the letting-go process, you know, and so what you're describing in is sometimes people they connect to different things, uh the elements, you know, earth, wire, wind, fire, water are often, you know, natural elements that support that releasing process. But the body also knows how to discharge, you know, the tensions, the trapped emotions, the blocked survival mechanisms of fight, flight, or freeze. So the body naturally knows how to release that. So If it's tapping into the natural healing processes that are organically within side of each human being.

Dirk 35:59

And how did you feel differently after that happened for you?

Dyslexia Shame And Reclaiming Intelligence

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah, really like the so I was a kid, had dyslexia, so had a hard time reading. And oftentimes kids with dyslexia, you know, they get placed in the lower reading group, you know. And you know, it's very evident, you know, in the fourth and fifth grade, like who was in the top reading group, who was in lower reading group. And so you began to assign intelligence to which reading group are you in, you know, and there's a lot of research that shows that, you know, dyslexic is, you know, so it's there's a fuzziness between the visual and auditory, and it has nothing to do with intelligence. But being placed in the less intelligent reading group had a profound impact on the way that I viewed myself. It didn't really equate to my capacity to learn. So I so that negative belief that I was not as smart as other people really got deeply integrated, you know, into my system. So the unburdening idea was to really retrieve that young part of myself and to help that young part of myself release this belief that he was carrying and bring back in that, you know, that my own natural intelligence and that becoming more fully true than the belief that I had deeply rooted into my system, you know, all through my you know earlier formative years of you know being a student.

Dirk 37:23

Wow. So that's a really powerful example. So I'm just imagining this part of you picking up this belief of I'm not as smart, and then lots of other parts of you or your bigger self you know has a different perspective, but then this is sort of a system of kind of going back, connecting with this young, wounded part that's holding this belief and really releasing in in a powerful way the bur that burden.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

So yeah, there's a lot of reinforcement when you're a dyslexic kid. There's a lot of reinforcement that you're not as intelligent, you know. So you're you know, your grades are lower because you know, most of my education was based on writing, you know, so in-class themes, or you had to, you know, write in paragraph form, or you were graded on the quality of your term paper, you know, and so there's a lot of reinforcement, you know, that you weren't as intelligent as other people because so much of the education was based on the ability to rewrite information that you had already been given.

Dirk 38:35

So do you feel that unburdening then set you up to take more of a leadership role and become a lead trainer and to create this new healing circles model?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah, I you know, I did have my fifth grade teacher who was my aunt. Like sometimes we have a negative cog negative cognition and a positive cognition. And so my my my aunt told me in this fifth grade that I was, if I could just do everything orally, I was I would be the smartest kid in the class. And uh, you know, so that that really helped to kind of hear that, you know, that I actually was, you know, fairly intelligent, but um, but the writing was the place that I really struggled, you know. So but that cognition did not feel very prominent. You know, there were you know, there was ways that orally I was good at remembering, you know, facts and good at remembering information and you know, could regurgitate that and put it together, put patterns together. So there was sort of evidence of my intelligence, but there was a lot of counter-el, you know, evidence, you know, from you know, from you know, I was probably a C student in college, and you know, I you know, I didn't go to a top-tier college. I went to, you know, the local Baptist college that I could get into with my very low SAT score. You know, so um Yeah, there's a lot of counter-evidence, but then there was some evidence that my my intellectual capacity was fairly decent, you know, and especially in terms of like really seeing patterns, seeing relational patterns, you know. So my emotional IQ was fairly good. My mathematical IQ has never been very good.

Dirk 40:17

Relationally and emotionally, I I get by pretty well. So I love that example of the witnessing and unburdening, and I want to get to how that's different in the group process versus individual.

Men’s Circles Myth Mentorship And Belonging

Dirk 40:28

But first, I'm also curious about you got training in sort of nature-based trainings with Animus Valley and School of Lost Borders, shamanistic, foundation for shamanistic. Like, how did that all fit into your learning path?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Well, I being an only child, the idea of a men's group was very appealing to me. And and a men's group where there was people really kind of being intentional in their relationships. And so I came up in the days of the mythopoetic men's movement with Robert Bly and James Hillman and Michael Meade and Colin Marsh.

Dirk 41:11

Say a little more about what that is, mythopoetic men's movement. I haven't heard of this.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah, so Robert Bly and James Tillman, you know, they wrote several books, and this was in the 80s, you know, 80s, early 90s. So the idea that that we lost rites of passage, the rights of passage from youth into adulthood was missing in our society. And Michael Mead is a mythologist, and so he you know brought in a lot of mythological stories of cultures that had intentionally had an intentional way of trying to help people develop mentally move from you know childhood or early youth and to adulthood. And so I was trying to learn how to adult, you know, at the time, I was 27, 28, still not feeling like an adult. And so there's a lot of sort of men's gatherings back in that time where by evoking mythology and story and intentional men's circles to really kind of help us make this transition into adulthood. So the Denver's Men's Council was very active in that. And I lived in Denver, Colorado at the time.

Dirk 42:25

So I'm picturing you sitting around a fire and playing the drums and can you maybe clear like what happens in these groups or what happened that was meaningful for you?

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah, the the drumming is really nice. It was there was some drumming and some sitting around the fire. A lot of times we we sort of gathered uh a man named them aseneris, who was a psychologist at DU and Boulder. We would sort of gather around different people's houses and really sort of talk about our experience, talk about our emotions, talk about this feeling of being young. And and it was a mixed group of, you know, you know, there was men in their 50s and men in their 30s and 40s and 20s. And so I had a number of really instrumental older men that were very nurturing to me and would see me and and validate me and listen, and so I felt really seen and heard and understood. And and so and they developed really close friendships with, you know, sort of men that were also really trying to kind of live their best life as well. And it was meaningful for them to be mentoring younger men. And so, you know, the mentoring could be anything from, you know, relational mentoring to, you know, to how we just are in the world, you know, and and how are we, you know, what is our authentic self and what is our adult self. And, you know, so for me, the sensational things of the drummings and the fire were, you know, kind of things you did. While you were talking about your inner experience, they kind of get sensationalized, but a lot of it was based on intentional relationships. And so they were very meaningful relationships that where I actually got some mentoring as a young man.

Dirk 44:14

Sounds very appealing. And I feel like that's a big part of my quest is community. And I I got that feeling in your group and in other kind of training experiences that I've done. I've done uh week-long training in ketamine assisted therapy. I did a five-day group training. Well, it was a ketamine-assisted IFS experience with Ted Riskin near you.

Designing Healing Circles With Intention

Dirk 44:41

So shifting towards your healing circle. So now I'm driving down from New York through the Blue Ridge Mountains and getting a little cabin in the woods near you. And I'm coming with this feeling of sort of this inner polarity of I want more connection with nature. I want peace and quiet, but nobody else in my family wants that. So what do I do with that intertention and a bunch of other sort of polarity and really feeling kind of pretty churned up? And I get to your house the next day, and you have there's 10 people. Everybody's IFS trained, some are level three trained, and you welcome us all. You we sit around a circle and you draw, you kind of have those three lines that on the paper with the bottom part is where I'm at now or where we're at now, and then the top is where we want to be, and then the middle third of the paper we're drawing. So we're drawing these pictures, the middle part is what keeps us from getting to where we want to be, and then turning that into an intention or a statement for the so sort of reviewing this process of and you put it nice, sort of forming the group, norming, storming. So there's the intention forming that happened at the beginning, and then there was also the altar and the s sacred item. And so maybe can you say something about the beginning, like how you think about sort of the beginning of a group like the one that I was in with you and the intention setting part?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah. So I work, so there's a couple couple ways to do IFS. One is sort of an open general IFS where people just kind of get to know their system and get to know their parts. And a lot of people practice in that way. I tend to practice more with intentions. So what is it that people are trying to live more into? What are they trying to live into their life? What's their intention? And getting some clarity about that really helps with how they're going to utilize the group. So the group is not sort of just an exploration of our being, but what is it that we're really trying to create? What are we trying to live into in our life? And then how does the group really support people living into their larger self or you know, living into self-leadership into the world? So having an experience of, you know, kind of taking a bit of inventory, where are we now? And then what are we living into? What's, you know, what are we trying to live into? And that's kind of where are we going. And then the group work is primarily working on what's blocking us from where we are now to what are we trying to live into. And oftentimes people are trying to live into something. So when people go to therapy and say they're depressed, the depression is constricting them from living into their connection, to their wholeness, to their happiness, to their sense of well-being. You know, so the depression is blocking, you know, them living into a much more freer, connected life. And so the intention is, you know, living into a much more freer, open, spontaneous way of being in the world. So people go to therapy to try to feel better, but what is that feel better? What does that look like? What are you trying to live into? So the exercises are really to get more clear about that, create that intention. And then they clear by the block. So the purpose of the group is to really work through the things that are blocking you from living into, you know, your best life. So having that kind of clarity really helps with the focus of the group and helps with the work of the group. So a lot of people, and I did groups that were kind of experiential groups around, you know, just learning how to relate and learning how to be authentic. And I think probably a lot of the men's work that I did early on, there was no real specific purpose. Being an adult is quite ambiguous, you know, it's not there's not a lot of clarity about that, you know. So so we did serve a lot of like relational exploration, but that's not what a lot of people are signing up for. When they sign up for therapy, there's a specific thing that they're wanting to work through. I want to understand and release my anxiety, you know, I want to be free of my depression, you know, I want to have a relationship that is more connected and more consistent and that I want to be, I'm gonna have a work that's purposed. So people have specific things that they come to therapy for. So for me, a group process that is this kind of open and exploration, a lot of people are not going to sign up for that. You know, that the group therapy for a large part is you know, it's existent in some forms, but individual therapy has really dominated the whole psychological world. You know, so even insurance companies primarily pay for individual therapy. So group therapy as a delivery system has really taken a back seat, you know, in the psychotherapy world. So so for it to become more prominent, which is sort of my vision, it's gotta have a purpose, it's got to have an outcome. And people have got to say that this is a faster, easier, more connected way of actually getting better. So the effectiveness of it is really important to me. So that's kind of what we're setting up is you know, actually specifically, what's your desired outcome? And then what's blocking you from getting there? And then how does group how does the group therapy process actually really support that and actually can be deeper and more effective than maybe the individual therapy that you're in?

Dirk 50:35

I love that explanation. And so, yeah, I'm just thinking about my experience and then having my own intention and drawing it, right? Having kind of a picture of me being happy, both connected to my family and to nature and in some kind of a nice balanced way, and not feeling this intense inner conflict or tension. And then everybody else, uh, the ten of us, all having their own version of whatever is happening in them. So so we cut we all start with this intention, and then there's the sacred item, which is sort of committing, it's sort of a commitment

Sacred Items And Staying In Group

Dirk 51:18

to the group to promise not to leave early. Do you want to maybe say something about that?

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Well, having a little something that says like I'm committing to be here. So the group dynamics, when sort of everybody's in, the group kind of is able to form a norm and start working together more as a unit, you know. So whatever kind of activity people have that has a little bit of a, hey, I'm committing to show up. I'm committing to bring myself here, I'm willing to offer some of my vulnerability or open to that. We have a thing in our culture when we observe something, we critique it. You know, so whatever we're, you know, so it's hard to not watch a basketball game and not critique, you know, the coaching or, you know, or how well the ball's moving around the court, you know. If I'm a big basketball fan. So we if we watch something, we critique it. But if we participate in something, our critic observers are not as active to that by participating and actually being in, you know, then we're all sort of in this process together. So it's a little bit of a experiential exercise to kind of help people land and actually kind of bring themselves into the process of being a part of a group. And not all of us have that experience. A lot of times we this may be the first experience we have of any type of intentional group, you know, that largely, you know, our group experience is probably our family, and some of us are in and some of us are on the outside of critiquing it, you know.

Dirk 52:46

So Yeah, and more specifically, I think I didn't say this clearly enough, is that you said something like, if you're gonna leave the group early, then you need to come back later and retrieve your sacred item and sort of explain what's happening to the rest of the group. So making it less easy for somebody to just have a bad day or have something happen and then just take off, which I feel like I had some parts, you know, pulling me away. And I don't think I would have left early, but there have been groups where I've you know not stayed totally until the end, or maybe I had an excuse or something. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

You know, so it and it also kind of helps with these moments where our protective parts take over and at least come back and you know, tell us and also see if there's some support that really kind of helps you be in the group in a way that to get what you came for.

Dirk 53:51

So then we're all in, we all have our intention, and then the process, the five-day process, along with every day showing up in the morning at your house and then at lunch, Dina cooking uh a meal, and us sitting on your deck together. So it's really spending the whole day together, and then some days going out together for dinner too.

Sculpting Parts Using Real People

Dirk 54:15

The work is then to take our inner parts and then and external, like put those in the room and parts too. So there's always one person who is the client and he's or she is directing what's happening, and then there's the therapist, and then there's everybody else has a role, and I I don't feel like I'm explaining this well, but uh what I sort of found so there's lots of ways of doing group work, and what and there's lots of different formats of groups, you know, and so the purpose of the group, the population, all of those things, this is probably what I'm writing about in a book, those sort of formulate how you design a group.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

What I didn't want to lose was the healing aspects of IFS. You know, so there are some groups that we it's more of a discovery, and so people sort of sit and share together, you know, kind of what they're noticing about themselves. And so they so that's a bit of a discovery process of discovering like what are the aspects of our being and what are the parts of us that are active, more sort of in a process-oriented, sort of a talking-oriented groups. And those are, you know, those are fine. They have a there's research on the outcomes of those that are showing some really good outcomes in and reducing post-traumatic stress symptoms. What for me, what and I think those are great. I think those are like people can sort of run those groups with the training that they have and level one training and maybe what group therapy training they had and you know, a graduate school or, you know, some most of the time people get like at least one group, you know, of course in their graduate school studies. For me, what I didn't want to lose is the healing aspects of IFS. And this is where we get into working with the self-to-part relationship. So the sculpting that you're describing is a way that the each, all the members in the group can participate in the healing of, you know, healing of each other. And so being able to participate as a sort of an internal part of someone's system then gives us a greater insight into the function of that system and the function of our own parts. And so sculpting became, and sculpting is not something that necessarily people get a lot of instruction about when they go through level one, level two, and level three training, especially since COVID, when we went online, it's kind of hard to do sculpting online. So I felt like the sculpting component was something that facilitators, so my training is a facilitator skills training. The sculpting was a component I found that that level one, level two, even level three graduates had not had any experience actually facilitating. They may have seen it facilitate it, but they haven't really facilitated themselves. So if you haven't facilitated something yourself, you're not likely to really do that when you run a group. So I wanted to really develop that skill, the facilitator skill, to be able to facilitate, you know, a process. And so that so my training is sort of that facilitator skill development, particularly learning how to sculpt in a way that really has a lot of clarity and sort of cleanness, but also a lot of safety in how you're you're helping people work through, you know, kind of what's happening in their system.

Dirk 57:35

Yeah, it feels really safe and it feels powerful to be seen in that way and to sort of create this visual. So the way it plays out is that you know, I might have this part of me that wants more connection with nature, a part of me that wants connection with my family, and then there might be pressures from legacy parents who want certain things. There might be a spouse who wants something or a child who wants something, and then that activates maybe people pleaser part or angry parts or self-critical parts, and then there's the deeper wounded. And so as soon as one part pops up, you can kind of sense like what person in the room sort of embodies the energy maybe of that part, and then you place them okay, this person is going to be really close to me, or this person is gonna be further away, and that's so it looks like a constellation, like a planetary constellation in a way, using the the people in our group. And yeah, I still can kind of picture who I had as my people pleaser part. And so it's really amazing, sort of in terms of the in insight, the visual, the sort of the felt sense experience, and then also how it creates a feeling of connection among the group. I feel like I still feel a very strong felt sense of connection with everybody who is there, even though I mean there's a group chat, and I every now and then I hear a little bit about what's going on, but I haven't like had phone conversations or seen people, but I feel like to create an experience that where people feel that strong connections is kind of an amazing accomplishment for a 50-year-old grown up. It doesn't really happen so much, yeah.

Changing The Belief People Are Dangerous

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Yeah. That's what I think the that's what I found too. And I remember I I was in an adult children of alcoholics and my great my grandfather and my great grandfather was an alcoholic. And I it was probably, I don't know, 20, 26, 27 at a time. And I was at sort of an ACOA meeting, and the guy, the facilitator asked me, like, he said, okay, could so complete this sentence. People are blank. And I said, so the way I finished that sentence at the time was people are dangerous and unpredictable. And I remember the facilitator said, Well, Chris, you know, that that might be a belief that you want to look at. And I remember really strongly pushing back, like, that's not a belief, that's reality. You know, that it's not a belief, that's a truth. And it's probably never going to change. People are dangerous and unpredictable. And that was a deeply rooted belief that I held in my system. And and it, you know, it took me a while to really undo that belief. But if you and I've asked people that question quite quite a lot, and I get a lot of a similar response. People are dangerous, people are unpredictable, people are untrustworthy, because the harm that we carry, the trauma we carry happens relationally. So the, you know, we might have a tree fall on us, but we don't tend to take that personal, you know. It's, you know, it's we don't sort of blame the trees for falling on us. But but, you know, so but all of our traumas come from relationships. So that, so if we have this belief that people are dangerous and unpredictable, we're not likely to try to form community. We're like more likely to try to stay away from people. And so we already have a very highly individualistic culture. And then trauma reinforces that individualism. So how do we do how do we redo that? How do we have corrective experiences that tells us something is different? So, you know, I'm really glad, Dirk, that you sort of had the experience that people actually can support my healing. You know, I actually can feel seen, I can feel valued, I feel validated, I can feel like I belong, which, you know, we kind of come into this world with an expectation that we will have an experience of belonging, and then it can be quite shattering when we don't have that experience.

Dirk 1:01:55

Yeah. So that's and the way you explain it makes a lot of sense. Of here's this part that says people are dangerous and unpredictable, and that sounds like a protective part, right? It's gonna keep us from getting hurt, and it also makes it hard to then have the deeper relationships and community feelings. And so by befriending that part and uh respecting it, there you can introduce an element of choice into relationships that wasn't there before.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Yeah, and it didn't we sort of begin to break down our generalizations. You know, there there may be a percentage of people that are dangerous and unpredictable, but the large population are not. You know, there's you know, we still kind of need to be careful in certain places, you know, that you know, where we might be harmed. It's not to throw that completely out the window, but the large portion of human beings want to be seen and heard and valued and connected. And so so we're missing out on a larger connection to our society.

Meaning Purpose And Generational Healing

Dirk 1:03:00

So I want to shift towards meaning and uh ask so so part of this podcast is uh inspired by the trauma neuropsychiatrist Viktor Frankel, who survived Auschwitz and several other concentration camps and wrote the book Man's Search for Meaning, and he had this idea that meaning is really the central human drive that was a big factor in helping him survive. And so he has a whole therapy model that's based on meaning. So I'm curious how you think about meaning in your own life, and just sort of throw out an open-ended question of like, do you think meaning is the central human drive or how and and how do you think about meaning?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Yeah, I love um Victor Frankel's work and I love that book, Men's Search for Meaning. And I think a couple of things. I often think about kind of how wonderful it would have been if my mom had gotten some IFS therapy and the difference that would have made, you know, in my own life and and then the difference it may it would have made, you know, in my marriage, if I, you know, my you know, relationship with my children. So I definitely did not want my children to have the experience I had as a child. So so I think that has really been a major purpose is to really help people that were suffering, and life and perception had gotten really skewed for them, you know, where they didn't feel like they belonged and felt like they were in constant threat and and you know, sort of lived a life of aloneliness and isolation. So the so my purpose of kind of helping people not suffer in the way my mother suffered, and and also helping children sort of not have a child that I had and not have that because that can be passed on for generations. So that's been a major probably purpose of mine is to kind of help people that wanted help to have a different life experience. So I probably have carried that purpose for you know for most of my life.

Dirk 1:05:17

Amazing. Yeah, and as you're talking, I'm thinking meaning is really about connection and connection to ourselves authentically, connecting to other people, and trauma blocks that, right? Because it creates this paranoid mind of like people are out to hurt me, I can't trust. And so you found this model that that heals the trauma and allows connection to happen.

Slow-Round Questions And Life Advice

Dirk 1:05:43

So just to sort of wind down this conversation, I ask some rapid fire questions, which is really not so much a fast speed round as a slow round. There's a comedian, Mike Burbiglia, who I like who talks about uh a slow round instead of a fast round. But so I ask everybody a series of questions and these are sentence complete questions. So the first question is uh according to me, Chris Burris, the meaning of life is uh experience. And uh yeah, I want to open it up so let you just flesh that out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Yeah I think having sort of a full experience, like really experiencing this life. So you know experiencing sort of you know kind of all of the you know aspects of it. So guess I'd love to to have you know really meaningful experiences.

Dirk 1:06:39

Yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Next question is the most meaningful thing I did yesterday was um yeah I helped facilitate some really amazing sculpts yesterday that were just um beautiful and transformative and nice.

Dirk 1:06:59

And if I come to you and I say Chris I feel like my life doesn't have meaning I'm just like this little speck of dust on this tiny planet and I'm struggling with this, what will your next move or action be?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

I mean probably my first thing is thanks for sharing that with me. I think that's an experience a lot of people have you know is that this experience of being you know um you know inconsequential there may be another side to that which your your life may be have a great deal of purpose and impact and you know I'm wondering if you want to explore that you know that together.

Dirk 1:07:39

So connecting in in that and exploring with curiosity. I like it. So next question when I am dust dead and gone the thing that I would most want to be remembered for is wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Probably my humor and yeah my humor and having a compassionate presence.

Dirk 1:08:02

Nice and uh most meaningful work of art that I've seen in the last week could be music, could be a TV show, could be a painting or theater or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

It would be some music. I listen to a lot of music and I was introduced to some really uh beautiful music this week. That's quite amazing. Can you say specifically what it is? Oh wow I listen to so much music I you know I have a very you know very wide you know a very wide repertoire you know like it could go from in and M to some you know Celtic you know drumming and singing so it could yeah I I remember that was a great part of the of the group experience.

Dirk 1:08:49

It's sort of at the the end of the day or at different parts of the day you would you would bring in music that that you're felt fit into the the moment. So that was all right. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that maybe you want to share and and I guess there's the Tim Ferris question if if there was like a big billboard with a message to everybody that you could put out into the world. Is there something you'd want to say?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

Yeah I think it's really important that we that we get out in nature and you know and and have time in nature so I would probably encourage all the folks in New York to find some time in find some time in nature and to kind of give yourself that gift of you know of connecting with the natural world thanks I want to do that.

Dirk 1:09:46

So yeah thanks for taking the time Chris I really appreciate you and our conversation today so thank you.

Where To Follow And What’s Next

Dirk 1:09:55

Great thanks to enjoy this conversation so thank you for listening I feel like I learned a lot in this conversation I have a lot of takeaways but some of those we will be discussing on our new Substack blog which you can find at developing meeting at substack dot com. If you want to follow what Chris is doing you can follow him at Burris at counseling.com B-U-R-R-I-S counseling.com also the following episode will be an audio diary with me talking into my cell phone as I go through this five day healing circles experience so if you want a behind the scenes listen check out our next episode and then much more to come please do all the things that podcast listeners do to support this podcast hit subscribe give us a like and so glad to have you with us until our next time I wish you a meaningful and meaningful month or however long till the next episode and as always if you figure out the meaning of life let me know