The Cost of Saying Yes | Dr. Shannon Sauer-Zavala | 184

What if the reason burnout keeps coming back… isn’t because there’s not enough time but because too much of that time is going to things that don’t actually matter to the life someone wants?

In this episode of Manders Mindset, host Amanda Russo sits down with Dr. Shannon Sauer-Zavala, clinical psychologist, professor, and bestselling author for a grounded, eye-opening conversation about values, boundaries, and what it really takes to create change that lasts. Dr. Sauer-Zavala shares her journey from being a “messy, shy kid” to building a career in treatment research, and why redefining success became non-negotiable once motherhood, burnout, and real priorities entered the picture.

Together, Amanda and Dr. Sauer-Zavala unpack why burnout isn’t a productivity problem, how saying “no” can actually bring better opportunities, and why values aren’t just inspirational words, they’re behavioral instructions. 

Expect a conversation that cuts through hustle culture, reframes what “success” is supposed to feel like, and brings everything back to one powerful question:

Does this move closer to your values… or farther away? 🧭

💡 In this episode, listeners will learn:

🧭 Why values are the missing link between wanting change and sustaining change
🔥 The 2 burnout mindset traps: treating burnout like an efficiency problem + normalizing exhaustion because “everyone is burnt out”
🚫 Why saying no can lead to more aligned opportunities (not fewer)
📩 The surprising downside of “Inbox Zero” and why it’s not a life goal
🧠 How CBT helps challenge fears like “If a boundary is set, everything will fall apart”
📉 Why aiming for 80% effort can reduce overwhelm without lowering performance
🧩 A new way of understanding borderline personality disorder as trait vulnerabilities
🧑‍⚕️ How to find the right therapist: what to ask when someone claims they “do CBT”

⏰ Timeline Summary: 

[12:40] Grad school systems: planners, structure, and reducing overwhelm with organization
[16:40] Why treatment research matters: impact beyond one-on-one work and “moving the needle”
[21:10] Redefining success: stepping away from academic metrics and toward values-based living
[27:30] Boundaries and opportunity: why saying no created better-aligned yeses
[33:10] Introducing BPD Compass: the book, the framework, and the goal of accessible treatment
[38:45] The most hopeful truth about BPD: 
[46:40] Burnout reality check: it’s not a planner problem, it’s a too-much problem

To Connect with Amanda:

Schedule a 1:1 Virtual Breathwork Session HERE

📸 Instagram: @thebreathinggoddess

Follow & Support the Podcast:

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To Connect with Dr. Shannon Sauer-Zavala: 

Website: https://personality-compass.com/

Shannon's Suggested search: “Values identification worksheet”

Transcript

Welcome & Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Manders Mindset Podcast. Here you'll find both monologues and interviews of entrepreneurs, coaches, healers, and a variety of other people, where your host, Amanda Russo, will discuss her own mindset and perspective, and her guest mindset and perspective on the world around us. Manders and her guests will help explain to you how shifting your mindset will shift your life.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome to Amanda's Mindset, where we explore the power of shifting your mindset to shift your life. I'm your host, Amanda Ruby. And I am so excited to be joined today with Dr. Shannon Sauer Faller. And she is a clinical psychologist, professor, and best-selling author whose mission is to make evidence-based mental health strategies accessible for everyone. She's delivered keynotes at Cambridge University, TEDx, and ISSPD. And her work has been featured in Psychology Today, WebMD, and The Washington Post. And I am so excited to speak with her today and delve down her journey. Thank you so much for joining me, Shannon.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Thank you so much for having me, Amanda. I'm so excited to be here.

Who Is Shannon At Her Core

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Absolutely. So that's a great bio, but who would you say Shannon is at the core?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Yeah, I guess I would say that I am a recovering overachiever perfectionist who is trying to, you know, every day live my values, show up for my kids, show up for the work. That's important to me. Yeah, I think that's what is it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. Gotcha. A recovering overachiever. I get that heavily.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Can you take us down memory lane? A little bit tell us about your upbringing, childhood dynamic, family dynamic, however deep you want to take that.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Connecticut. I am an only child and grew up with my mom. My parents divorced when I was little and didn't really have much contact with my dad. And we moved in with my my mom's parents, my grandparents, and kind of grew up like the four of us, and pretty close, like extended family. Um I think, you know, contrary to what my bio suggests, I was not a particularly conscientious kid. You know, I was messy and lazy and shy. Um and I think that's part of what got me into like studying personality and personality change, you know, and some of the treatment research that I do, because I've I've watched my personality change over time. It really wasn't until like mid-college that I was sort of like, oh gosh, like I have I have a career in mind and I'm not going to be able to do it because I won't get into grad school because my grades aren't good, because I don't apply myself. And that was kind of a turning point for me to once I sort of had a purpose, it was a lot easier for me to, you know, buckle down and get things done. And I think the pendulum shifted kind of so far in the kind of perfectionistic overachiever. Sure, I'll take that on direction. That once I had kids, I, you know, I'm now kind of actively trying to kind of come back the other way.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Now, what'd you go to school for when you first went to college?

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Yeah, yeah. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. I ended up taking a an introduction to psychology course my freshman year. And um, it was at 8 a.m. three times a week. And even though I like habitually skipped all of my other classes, I showed up to each and every psychology class. And I ended up doing really well in the first exam, kind of like one of those rite of passage exams. And my TA was like, oh, Sheen, you should really consider majoring in psychology. And I was like, cool, okay. And that is kind of like what got it certain. So I was a psychology major.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Okay. And I I'm curious, you mentioned you had this like realization where you realized you kind of had to shift your ways a little bit. Like, was that a drastic realization? Did stuff start changing for you like right after that?

Grad School Habits And Tools

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yeah, I think it was like pretty gradual, right? So, so one of the things that you know, I talk about with my clients that I saw in my own life is, you know, really principles of reinforcement. And so you know, doing well on that first psychology exam, that was reinforcing. And so I kept applying myself in that class and took more psychology classes and kind of like shaped my identity a little bit, like, oh, like I'm good at psychology. And and so in my psychology classes, I was doing really well and was being rewarded for it and you know, really kind of staying the course, but not so much in my other classes. And because I was kind of like feeling myself as a psychology student, and also like I am, I do think a strength of mine is being really empathetic and um like people-oriented. And so I sort of decided, okay, like I think I want to go to graduate school. I want to be a clinical psychologist, right? And anyone that's ever tried to go to graduate school for clinical psychology, it's like super duper competitive. And certainly, if I was trying to get in now, I would not have. But I got some feedback from a professor that was like, yeah, your overall GPA is not competitive. And so that for me, you know, negative, negative emotions, right? Guilt, frustration, they can also be really motivating because you're motivated to decrease them. And so that's when I really started to see more, you know, more across the board change. How was grad school? Grad school was great. I think I was taking only classes that I was really, really interested in. I think it really trained me up to be more and more conscientious. You know, for the first time, I had a planner. Was uh this is this will age me a little bit, but when I was in grad school, like Gmail was in like beta. So I had my Gmail and my Goo calendar and and I think like using these like organizational tools, again, and sort of that negative reinforcement, it took away the overwhelm of, oh, I have to go to the clinic and see some clients. Oh, I have class, oh, I I have to write, I have to write these research papers. And so I think I developed strategies that really helped me to be successful there.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

That's awesome. So post-grad school, what was the next step for you from there?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah, yeah. So when you go, when you get a PhD in clinical psychology, you have to do like a one-year clinical residency. So I'm in Kentucky now. I actually, my professor job is at the same place I went to grad school. My um mentor from grad school retired and I ended up applying for her job. But so when I left Kentucky, where I did my grad school, went to Duke. That's where um I did my pre-doctoral internships, kind of like a residency, and then moved to Boston and had my first faculty job at Boston University.

Early Career Moves And Research

SPEAKER_02 7:22

That's awesome. And so you get your first faculty job and then from there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

So at BU, I was studying treatment research. And that's really the first time I'd ever, I'd ever done treatment outcome research. And that's where I think I really found what I wanted to do. Because, you know, at the same time as you are, you know, you're doing the science, you're still working one-on-one with patients. And I loved that. And I think I was really drawn to research and treatment research in particular, because, you know, one-on-one clinical work is so beneficial to that one person that you're working with. But if you can develop a treatment that's more efficient, that's more accessible, that fits better with how clinicians in actual practice do things, then that's what's going to move the needle. And so I really felt like this was the way to do the most good.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

And did you notice that you were doing good? Did you feel like you were?

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had a lot of professional success. I was able to get funding from the National Institute of Mental Health. So that, you know, it's all these sort of like rewarding things that are telling you, oh, you're on the right path. You're doing the right thing. And you know, you know, you have sort of that like long-term research is sort of a slow process. And then at the same time, we're working with people who are getting better and being like, Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for this care. Um, so it's so I did. I really did feel like I was, I was making a difference. How long ago was this about? Yeah. So uh we lived in Boston and I was at BU from 2011 to 2019. And then summer or I guess May of 2019, we moved back to Kentucky. And so I've been at UK since then.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

UK and then University of Kentucky. How do you like UK compared to BU?

Why Treatment Research Matters

SPEAKER_03 9:20

I like it a lot. I like it a lot. I think like, I mean, you're from New England, so I don't know, maybe and I'm from Connecticut originally, so I can definitely say this. But I feel like I feel like at BU, you kind of it was sort of this like felt like you had to know somebody, you had to pay your dues, you had to, you there was like a much more defined hierarchy. And I feel like I feel like in Kentucky, it's like a sort of a level, a more level playing field. Like I don't have to ask a male colleague to order something for me because I'm not being taken seriously by staff, um, which in fact did happen at BU. So so I think those things I really like. Plus, like I have, you know, at the time that we moved, I had a one-year-old and a four-year-old. And it's really hard to have little kids in like round zero for the most expensive childcare with no family support. And so here in Kentucky, we have my husband's parents, and my mom, since I'm an only child, my mom moved down here. So we have like childcare, and it's just it's like an easier vibe.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

That makes a lot of sense. And now, when you started woking when you were down in Kentucky, how was the woke compared to?

BU To Kentucky: Culture And Family

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Yeah, it was great. I mean, I think like when I was at Boston University, I was sort of part of a bigger team. And then coming to the University of Kentucky, I was kind of starting my own lab. And so I had a lot of autonomy, and that was something that was really important to me at that phase in my career. I felt like I was sort of ready to do my own stuff. And, you know, working, I had a postdoc and I had graduate students. And I felt like it, you know, especially early on in getting here, I felt like this surge of creativity. And we ended up developing a new treatment for borderline personality disorder that um we actually just submitted it to the publisher last month, and it'll be published next year. Really excited about that. And we tested it in a big clinical trial. So it's been great.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

That's so fascinating. I love that. Now, I want to transition a chat. You had mentioned about redefining what you believe success to be. I'm curious if you could tell me like what you used to consider it to be a little bit and how that's evolved.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Yeah, so for me, and I think most people that think that they're gonna go to school in the mental health field, you know, you get into this field because you want to do good, you want to help people, right? But I think that when you are in academics, there are other pressures that that are important if you want to like get promoted, get tenure, all of these things. And they are things that actually like, when I look back, don't really matter that much. Right. So um how many peer-reviewed articles or publications do you have? How many grant dollars do you have? And those are things that on paper look really good. You can spend a lot of time writing and applying for grants and doing, you know, doing all of these things that are gonna look good to like 17 other crusty old academics. And over time, I think I started to feel like it was a lot of it was a lot of busyness and a lot of work, and not really feeling like I was as close to the people that I wanted to help, and that I was trying to impress other more senior academics, and kind of realizing like that's not the like if I'm gonna be away from my kids and my family at work, that's not what I want to be working toward.

Building A Lab And New BPD Treatment

SPEAKER_02 13:10

I get that. So, what would you say you consider success to be now?

Redefining Success Beyond Academia

SPEAKER_03 13:16

So I think for me, success is being able, like having the space and the flexibility to to be able to live in line with your values. And when I think about my values, you know, what's important to me is my relationships with my partner and with my kids, like first and foremost, you know, followed by like friends and family and and my health, right? My health, because you know, if I'm not taking care of myself, then I can't do any of the other things that I want. And then career, right? And I think like early in my career is like sort of career first, and oh my gosh, this is so important, and making a big deal out of things that, you know, 10 years later, I don't even remember, but I know I was real freaked down about it at the time. And so being able to, I think success to me is being able to do work that I think is meaningful. I mean, I know that this doesn't sound like a big deal, but for me, like I I felt like I had to end every workday having answered every email in my inbox. And that is like, as you get more and more successful, and more and more people are emailing you, that's like not a thing, like not a realistic goal. Um, but I would be really stressed out if I couldn't. And I had had to and still do sometimes have to remind myself, I didn't get into this career to be to answer emails. I got into this career because I wanted to write, because I wanted to like do stuff like this, right? So being on this podcast is in line with my values because I want to communicate more directly to people that my research is relevant for. Um, and these are the types of things that you know feel meaning, like a meaningful use of my expertise. And so that's kind of where I wanted to be with work and also feeling like if I want to leave in the middle of the day and go to my kids' school and have lunch with them, I can.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Were you not able to do that before? Like leave in the middle of the day.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

I mean, when you have an academic job, it's flexible. So if you're not teaching a class, like I could have, I just didn't feel like I could, you know, because I'll get behind, right? Like, because if I don't say yes to this opportunity, then people will think less of me. Or worse, it'll go to somebody else and then I'll lose my edge, right? And what I have actually found, and what has been like actually really surprising to me is that when I started saying no more and pulling back and really saving my energy for the things that are important to me, I've actually gotten more opportunities, better aligned opportunities, right? Like I don't think that if I was still saying yes to every request or opportunity that came through, that I would have had the time to really innovate in my development. I wouldn't have this, you know, I wouldn't have this book coming out, I don't think, you know, and so I'd rather for me knowing that I'm not trying to live up to anybody else's standards, that I have my own values and standards, and I'm living in line with them.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

That makes so much sense. You know, somebody said to me once by saying yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And you might not know in the moment like what you're saying no to, but the yes that you are saying to whatever it is, it and it doesn't even have to be a big thing, like writing a book. It could be something small, like going to dinner with some friends. That yes, you it's gonna be a no to something else. I thought of that when you were mentioning that.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

I mean, I think that that's absolutely true because time is really our most precious resource. And I think that's really was kind of a reset for me as well when I think about success, right? Like being really protective of my time.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

It's so true.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Now, you mentioned you writing a book. What's the name of the book? Can you tell us a little bit about it?

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, so I have a book that's coming out in the spring. It's called BPD Compass. So borderline personality disorder, COMPASS. And COMPASS is kind of an acronym for cognitive behavioral modules for personality symptoms. And so essentially, there's this new sort of way that we think about personality disorder. So instead of a collection of symptoms, we think about it as like vulnerabilities in personality traits. And so people with BPD tend to feel their emotions really strongly. They tend to have difficulty trusting other people and they tend to be kind of impulsive. And so instead of kind of playing whack-a-mole with the different symptoms, we're really targeting these personality features that put a person at risk for BPD.

Living Values Over Inbox Zero

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Wow, personality features that put them at risk. That's such a cool way to like even phrase that. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Now, I you said we, are you like co-authoring the book? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

So um, so we, my postdoc at the time, a graduate student and two graduate students wrote this treatment manual, this workbook. And at first we weren't thinking we would publish it. We were writing kind of a protocol that we would use in a clinical trial. And so we tested the treatment with at this point, I think we treated 150 people with borderline personality disorder over the past five years. And I mean, we see really striking effects. So it our treatment is short, it is 18 sessions. And, you know, kind of the standard treatment for borderline personality disorder is a year of twice weekly treatment. And we see improvement in 18 sessions that's comparable to the improvement that that on average they see in the year-long treatments. And so, you know, people are getting better just as much faster. And so that's where we really wanted to disseminate it. And so what will come out is is like a self-help patient workbook. So if you don't have a therapist, you can you can read how to do it.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Wow, I love that. No, that's so awesome. You know, a lot of people talk about the benefits of therapy, and I there are, but depending on somebody's resources, you know, like even financial resources, like just the way of the world today. Like, I love that. So, like if they if they didn't have access to that, that that's amazing. That's amazing.

BPD Compass: A Short, Effective Model

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Yeah, yeah. I'm hoping, I mean, this is like a long way off, but I'm hoping to kind of develop an online, kind of like an online course of it as well that will have like pre-recorded videos of me talking, like basically what I would say to a patient if I was one-on-one. Like you wouldn't get the back and forth, but I think it would like come alive a little bit more and like have the book as kind of the companion. Um, could for this very reason that it's really hard for people to find good evidence-based treatment. And then if you have a condition that not a lot of people are trained in, like BPD, it's even harder.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Now, I'm curious, did you always think of how that you would get into this area of psychology?

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Yeah. So before I went to grad school, so I actually took a year off between undergrad and grad school because I did not get in the first time and I had to reapply. And I ended up working at a residential treatment facility that that had basically people that were the same age as me, like young adults, um, but that were in a very different life state than me. And a lot of them had BPD. And I think that's where I got really interested in this condition because I found people, I worked with people that, like, in my estimation, were really cool and smart and creative and were just had a lot of difficulty regulating their emotions and really trying to figure out like how, like, where did these trajectories, where did they diverge? And so when I went to graduate school, like I've always been interested in BPD. And that's really like the where I did my master's thesis and my dissertation, but it was more on like understanding the condition. And so, you know, early on, I didn't think, oh gosh, like I'll write a new treatment for BPD and it'll be a published book, and I'll travel all over the world and train therapists to do it. No, I did not think that. Um, but I think it kind of became this natural evolution of then, you know, for my postdoc training in my early career, do This treatment research of learning how to do that. That when I came back to UK and was kind of in charge of what I wanted to study, that I would come back to BPD and I've kind of merged that with the treatment training.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

I get that you probably didn't see it being this full of that far back. But that that makes a lot of sense. And that's really that's cool that it kind of came full circle for you. Like you got to have that experience, and you realize they're just people that have trouble regulating their emotions. Society generally, when you they think people with BD, it's much more than that. I like how you simply put it, like they just struggle regulating their emotions.

Myths, Prognosis, And Hope For BPD

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Yeah, they struggle with trust and interpersonal relationships because you know, a lot of them have had like not great relationship experiences. And one thing that's just worth saying, since I have a platform to say it right now, is that BPD is really, really responsive to treatment. And it just gets better over time. We have really good, like 25-year-long longitudinal studies tracking people that were hospitalized at McLean Hospital, which is right outside of Boston, for risk and were diagnosed with BPD and they followed them for 25 years. And I mean, I want to say like 80, 85% no longer meet criteria for BPD. And they didn't after like five years. And that's with or without treatment. And then with treatment, like the the prognosis is really good. So I think people at the field and like just people in general used to think that this was a treatment or this was a problem that couldn't be treated. And that just like the data don't support that at all.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Wow. Now I'm curious, what did the treatment look like a little bit for this?

Values First: The PRO Framework

Skills: Cognitive Flexibility And Mindfulness

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Yeah. So so my favorite part of the treatment comes right at the beginning. And this is a little bit full circle because we were talking about my values earlier, but we start with values. I think people with BPD is so refreshing because, you know, sometimes they've been validated by their therapists that they've had before. They're like, that's crazy. Why are you doing that? You know, and really talking about some of the problems that they have. And so we start with values. And so, you know, for anyone that's listening that doesn't know what values mean, it's basically just your aspirational life direction. So it's how you want to show up in your relationships, in your career, in personal growth and health, you know, in these different domains of life that people tend to care about, what you want to be about, how you want to show up. And importantly, values are not, they're not goals. You don't check them off. You don't say, I want to be, you know, my value is to be honest in relationships and be honest with your partner one time, be like, check, cool, I did it. It's like in the same way that you can travel West and never arrive at West. That's like kind of how it works with values. And so we really go through and define people's values, you know, as a parent, as a partner, as an adult child towards their family of origin, as a friend, as a worker, as a learner. And we use that. So that's kind of like the first real session. And then the next session, we do something called, we have this worksheet called Becoming a Values Pro. And pro is an acronym for prompt response outcome. And so basically, we're getting people to track their relationship difficulties, any emotions that came up, any triggers for impulses that they had during the week and kind of write down, you know, what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what did you do? So kind of get that monitoring down. And then most importantly, for outcome, that last piece, we asked them, why'd you do this in the short term? Like, what did you get out of it? People don't do things for no reason. Often it's because it made me feel better right now. That's why I snapped at my partner, or that's why I cut myself, or that's why I drank, right? Made me feel better right now. And then the key question that we ask is, okay, does that take you closer or farther away from your values? Because as a therapist, I don't want to be in a position of telling you, ooh, don't do that, right? I want you, because my values and what I think is narrative might be different than what you think. And that's fine with me. I want you to decide, okay, like, does that line with my values or not? And I don't know what we were thinking when we wrote the treatment, but I don't think I realized how much this would resonate with people. And throughout the whole rest of the treatment, as they're learning skills, they will say things, like people will spontaneously say things like, and it just wasn't in line with my values, or it was really hard, but it was in line with my values, so I did it anyway. Um, and that feels just as a therapist, really, really powerful and like empowering to the folks that you're working with. That's kind of the meeting part, and then the rest of it is like Krick Street CBT. So we have cognitive flexibility, so kind of changing your perspective, particularly about emotions in relationships and um towards impulses with behavior change. And so the basically just looks like testing out new behaviors and seeing what you learn. You know, if you ask people for help, do they help you? Um, so you're kind of rewriting um beliefs that you have about what you can expect from other people. And then we have mindfulness. So learning to really pay attention non-judgmentally toward the present moment. And that's pretty recent.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

I love that. It seems like you're really helping give them their power back. Yeah, it's been so great. That's amazing. That's amazing, and it's it's so cool that this came full circle for you. Like because you were working with them before. Wow, that's awesome. That's so awesome. Now, I'm curious. Uh I wanna kind of transition a tad, but I'm curious about you mentioned about it's possible to add fulfillment without adding more to your plate.

Adding Fulfillment Without Adding More

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah, yeah. And so this is like, you know, I at the risk of sounding like a broken record, like this really is is also values are the answer. And so the idea isn't necessarily to do more, it's to do more of the right things, right? And what's right for me versus you versus anybody listening is gonna be different. It really has to do with what's important to you and what you value, not you know, what your boss thinks or society or your mother-in-law or your partner or your kids. It's you know, really taking the time to understand what you what I want my life to be about, then it becomes when somebody asks you to do something, you the question is not do I have time? It's does this take me closer or farther away from the person that I want to be? Or, you know, it like in your phrasing, right? If I say yes to this, what's the cost? What does it take away from? And it becomes this very clear compass. So it's really doing the same thing that we do with, you know, with clinical patients. I mean, this is like, I mean, this is why clinical patients aren't really, there's just a continuum. They aren't really different or other, you know, because it's the same strategy. It's like, is it in line with my values or not?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

I I get that. Is it aligned with my values or not? And does it ign help me be the person I'm trying to be?

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think like a lot of people want to skip that step, that like introspection, the time that it takes because they just want to start making changes. But it really, if you don't spend the time to get clarity on why you are doing things, like how'd you get to this point? Like, why are you doing things the way that you're doing them? Like, what is the reinforcement, you know? And for for me, right, as like a high achieving woman, the reinforcement gold stars, pats on the back, right? Like feeling like if I didn't, you know, and like never saying no, right? So I'm no was scary because I didn't know what would happen because I never said uh-huh, right? So kind of understanding, taking the time to understand how you got there, and then taking the time to figure out where you're going, can't really skip that step. Otherwise, you kind of will just be spinning your wheels.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

That makes so much sense. No, that makes so much sense. No, I'm curious. I'm trying to figure out how I want to word this, but like if you have advice or suggestions for people who are struggling with bono, and maybe because they're saying yes to things that they they don't necessarily want to, or maybe they it would be better for them not to.

Burnout: Myths, Mindset, And Boundaries

Getting Clear On Personal Values

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so I think a couple things happen when people are struggling with burnout. One of those things, so so two things that people kind of mistakes people make in their mindset. One, they think that burnout is an efficiency or productivity problem. So they think, you know, if I, gosh, like if I could just be more efficient, if I could find the right planner or the right, you know, phone app locker or the right time management system that I will, you know, that everything will fall into place and I'll be able to do it all with time, you know, with time left to spare. And you're already efficient, you're just doing too much, right? Like they're just literally aren't enough hours in the day. And, you know, because people that often get to the point of burnout are, you know, overcommitting anyway, who's to say that what if you were to get more efficient and free of time, that you wouldn't just fill it with other stuff, you know? So that's the first, that's kind of the first mistake that I see a lot of women making. And then the second one is like kind of thinking because your peers are all burnt out too. That's just like what it means to be a woman with a career and a family and all the stuff that we do, right? So I always use the example of like in the group chat, right? We're all venting about how exhausted we are. And that like venting is something that feels super good in the moment, yeah, they get me, they understand. But it it backfires in the long term because that short-term relief feels satisfying. So we don't actually do anything to change the problem. And we believe that this is just like the cost of success. We're all here, everyone's doing it. So those are the two like kind of things I see people trying that I don't think, you know, that that don't end up long term solving the problem. And so once you get clear on your values and you're like, I should be saying no to that. I don't want to do that. I'm already burnt out. Then I think that's where cognitive behavioral techniques become become really important, right? This is like a step that I think of as like gaining confidence in your ability to set boundaries. Because number one, there's a lot of fear. And so one of the things I do when I work with people is ask them, what are you afraid is gonna happen if you were to say no? Or if you were to come back, or if you were to close your laptop at five o'clock and not open it until tomorrow morning, or you were to leave work with stuff still left on your your desk, like, or you send an email with a typo, whatever, you know, whatever the person's big fear is, right? Like, what are you afraid is gonna happen? And then teaching them really systematic ways to kind of evaluate, well, how likely actually is that? And if you did send an email with a typo because you didn't check it over four times before you sent it, bad would that actually be, right? So really doing this cognitive work. The other thing, and you really can't get around it and it sucks, is that you have to change your behavior. You just do. You have to say no so that you can see what happens. In my experience with my clients, it's nothing. Like it's so anticlimactic. Um, especially for like high achieving, burnt out people. One of the one of the behavior change things that I try to get people to do is do 80% of your best job. Just give it your best, your good old 80% instead of like your either my 110%. And honestly, like no one notices because your 80% is most people's, you know, 110%. So you're all you're still performing at a high level, just without the overwhelm. And so regardless of how you choose to change your behavior, whether it's to set a boundary and saying no, whether it's to ask for help and delegate, whether it's to just like put less effort into something that doesn't matter that much, you will then, by doing that, you'll get data, right? Data on like what happens next. And usually the feared outcome, the thing that you were worried about, it doesn't happen. And so then you get more confidence the next time you set a boundary and you try to keep, you keep that going.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

I really like that question. What are you worried is gonna happen? Even if it's not for saying no, even if it's for something else that you're afraid to do, whatever it is, what are you worried is gonna happen? Because I think a lot of us overthink of what could yeah, literally, that is a really powerful reframe. I like that. Now, I'm curious, do you have any suggestions for people to get clearer on what their values are?

Compassionate Change That Sticks

SPEAKER_03 35:47

This is like a really common psychological tool if you go to therapy, but you know, because it's a really like known tool, if you just Google values identification, you'll get tons of hits, tons of therapy worksheets. And you don't really need a therapist to do this. Like you could easily find online something that can walk you through it. But essentially what it is is making a list of life domains. So if people want to wanna pause and get like a pen and a paper, they are um, let's see if I can name them all family of origin, like how you want to show up in those relationships, intimate partnerships, parenting, friendships, personal growth. So, like lifelong learning, like how you want to be as a lifelong learner, career, citizenship. So, how you want to show up, like in your community or you know, your country or the world, right? Like global citizen, spirituality, health and wellness, cultural traditions, and leisure. Um, so those are the 11 different domains. And then basically, like I just asked that question, right? Who do you want to be? What do you of value? In in the BPD Compass treatment, we give people this word bank of like a hundred different value-y words, like honesty, um, dependability, genuineness, and we kind of use that as brainstorming. So, you know, if I'm thinking about like my parenting values, right? Like presence and trust and humor and joy, right? I'd pick a couple of those and then I would try to figure out, okay, like what why did those words stick out to me? And then I turn it into one sentence, right? Which is just like, okay, so I want to be a parent who carves out dedicated present time for my kids, but doesn't completely lose my identity in the process of parenting, right? So like one sentence. And then you ask yourself, okay, if I were living in line with that value, what would that like literally look like behaviorally? What would I be doing more of? I would probably, you know, when I'm answering my emails and my kid is like, watch me do this thing, instead of being like, okay, in a minute, I will just stop and watch for two seconds while they jump on one foot or whatever it is, right? Like, because that's in line with my value. What would I be doing less of? I'd probably be doing, I'd probably work less on the weekends, uh, you know, even for things that I find meaningful, right? I'm would be off my computer when we're watching a movie together or doing things. And so it really is taking something that feels big, like value, purity values, and turning it into behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Turning it into behaviors. You made that very simplified.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

I appreciate that. Well, good, I'll take the craze. I've been doing this for a long time, so I'd be worried if I if I couldn't articulate it.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

I think, like, no matter who is listening to us, that it's very simple to uh switch it because I feel like values in you Google that identifier, you're gonna get so many different options. But I think that was really simple to just toning it into behavior. Like, how would you act? How would you show up for this? Yeah, that makes so much sense. I'm curious about we've talked about changing, changing behaviors and shifting that aspect. How do you suggest people go about approaching change, like changing their behavior, changing something about themselves?

How To Find The Right Therapist

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Yeah. I mean, certainly like the first step is compassion. A lot of people think that, you know, if you beat yourself up for behaving a certain way or making a mistake or having certain emotions in response to something that you like beat yourself into submission and you won't anymore. And I mean, tons of clinical experience and research data suggest that that really isn't the case. And so better, the better approach is kind of taking this compassionate lens where you are trying to understand why you made the decision that you made. And, you know, maybe that's not what you would strive to do next time. And so you can kind of look at it with this desire to change without beating yourself up for where you're coming from. That's like the first place, because you know, when you feel like crap, you're not because you've beaten yourself up, you're not going to be motivated to do anything, right? It's a lot harder to make those changes. So that's the first piece. And then I think the second piece is I mean, these are things that don't need to be done overnight. And a lot of times what I see with people is that, you know, I mean, and sometimes with myself too. It's like, okay, I want it's like all or nothing. So like I'm gonna cook healthy and I'm gonna walk five miles and I'm gonna go to the gym three times a week. And then when I drop one of those balls, all the balls drop, right? And so it's like adding, figuring out what is most important, right? Again, values, like where do you want to start? And then making small changes and waiting until they stick. I think those are really important. I also think, I mean, and obviously I'm biased, but I think therapy is really awesome and it can be really helpful to like therapy isn't just for like I'm straight up in crisis. Therapy can be proactive, it can be aspirational, right? Like we can have support to because change it's hard. Even if you are, if you're going from good to better, it's still hard.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

No, that's so true.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

That's so true. I love how you mentioned, though, about compassion and about like not beating ourselves up. You know, I think there's a lot of culture nowadays that is like that hustle culture and like beating ourselves up a little bit when and that all or nothing, like you know, like you're either on or you're off. And it's like sometimes it's even back to you mentioned before, like about the 80%. Like, why do it does it have to be zero or a hundred, you know?

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Like seven out exhausted, collapsed, or like just straight up killing it on all sides.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

No, I exactly I completely agree. I I completely agree. Now, I'm curious, you mentioned therapy, and do you have suggestions for people for finding the right therapist for them?

Biggest Aha: Define Your Own Scale

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, yeah. This is like, I mean, certainly a loaded, a loaded issue. Lots of different types of therapy. And depending on what your problem is, certain therapies are gonna be more or less appropriate. So, you know, the most common thing that people get is what I refer to as supportive therapy, right? And it's essentially just, you know, kind of coming in, your therapist will say, How is your week? And they'll sort of like validate you and give you some tips and help you kind of work through or think through some of the things that are going on in your life. And for many people that maybe don't have a great listening ear in their life, or you know, they're just trying to like, they just need a sounding board. That's great. I mean, that's probably the appropriate form of therapy. However, if you have, well, I'll start with anxiety disorders. Like if you have anxiety disorder, if you have generalized anxiety, which is like uncontrollable worry, if you have panic disorder, panic attacks, social anxiety, OCD, PTSD, borderline personality disorder, major depressive disorder. Now I'm just getting it, like you have an eating disorder. You it's like really important to get evidence based care. And evidence based care simply means that if It's been tested in a clinical trial and we know that it works. That's really important. And so for anxiety disorders, depression, eating disorders, cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT is the frontline treatment even before medication. Super effective. We can treat people that have had panic attacks for 10 years in seven sessions. That's how effective it is if you get the right treatment for the problem that you have. And so if you go on psychologytoday.com, for instance, which is where a lot of people like look for therapists, almost every therapist will say, Oh, I do CBT. And that isn't really true. And so usually I will kind of coach people that I'm working with to ask some questions, right? So do you follow a manualized protocol? Do you use worksheets? Do you give homework? How do you help people with difficult thoughts? Do you encourage people to change their behaviors? Like these are the types of questions because what you really want if you have like a condition like I'm describing is somebody that's gonna push you to make difficult changes. And so that that's really important. I will say too, like, this is a lot of information I feel like I'm giving. abct.org. And gosh, what is the name of the OCD one? Well, I'll just start, I'll just say OCD. ABCT.org is it's my professional association, and it's where like tried and true CBT therapist, they have their professional listings, so it's like a little bit more vetted.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

That makes a lot of sense to ask the questions, though. That's interesting to me that they list that they do CBT, but they don't.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

Yeah, and they probably do it to like an extent, you know, like, oh, could you think about that differently? Or something, you know, but they're not necessarily teaching it in the structured way that somebody that's been really well trained would. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

People are trying to be disingenuous on purpose, is like the more I get it, but it's all in asking the right questions because it's different when you're getting even like these worksheets and these things that you have talked about, I'm sure is very different than if if you're not having that homework.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Right. I mean, 50 minutes a week, I say this as a therapist, 50 minutes a week is not gonna do anything unless you are making the changes out in your actual life.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Now, I'm curious. I ask a lot of guests this, and I'm sure you've had many because most of you have, but I'm curious what you would consider the biggest aha moment you've had in your life.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

One of the biggest. Oh gosh. Biggest aha.

Rapid Fire: Identity, Advice, And Legacy

SPEAKER_03 47:01

Um I think for me, I mean, I've kind of already talked about it a little bit, but I think the biggest aha moment for me was that like academia is never gonna love me back, right? It doesn't matter how hard I work, it doesn't matter like how many publications, if I, you know, if I have the most grant dollars, it like doesn't matter. Um, you know, academia is a business and I cannot determine my worst based on what I don't know, Eschel on some academic power think is important or you know, on these metrics that aren't meaningful to me. I think that's the you define the scale that you measure yourself on. Don't let some crusty old dude do it.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

I love that you define your own scale. No, that's I think that's so key for every aspect, every aspect of life. Wow. No, that makes so much sense. Well, thank you so much, Shannon. I really enjoyed this. Oh, thank you. You asked like really such good questions. This was really awesome. Thank you. Have you heard of a man named Jay Shetty? Yeah, so most or man named Jay Shetty. A lot, a lot of people have, but I either get the oh my gosh, of course, or no, I have no idea. It's never like in between. He ends his podcast on Popearth with two segments, and I've incorporated those into mine. So I give him credit because everybody's like, I love these questions. They're not mine. I did not come up with them at all. First segment is the many sides to us, and there's five questions, and they need to be answered in one word each. What is one word someone who was meeting you for the first time would use to describe you as warm? What is one word someone that knows you extremely well would use to describe you as? Silly. What is one word you'd use to describe yourself? Hysterically funny.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Funny.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

What is one word that if someone didn't like you or agree with your mindset would use to describe you as? Entitled. What is one word that you're trying to embody right now? Purpose. Second segment is the final five, and these can be answered in up to a sentence. What is the best advice you've heard or received?

SPEAKER_03 49:45

This is anti-advice, but you know, I've heard people say, you know, you have the same 24 hours as Beyonce. And that one always sticks in my head because I think that no, you don't, but like you don't have an entourage. So you don't have the same 24 hours as Beyonce. You have to prioritize.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Okay.

Closing, Website, And Final Message

SPEAKER_03 50:06

So why is that the best? I think that it embodies the sort of comparison culture that we have. And just because other people are hustling in a particular way or have a certain level of productivity that, well, if Beyonce can do it, like why can't I? I'm just not working hard enough. And, you know, you don't see all the behind the scenes and all the help that and all the money that she has that that like makes that productivity, you know, available to her. That wouldn't be, you can't measure yourself by the same standards. What is the worst advice you've heard or received? Oh, I should have saved that one. Um I think the worst advice I've received has been, you know, hide your emotions, be prof professional, um, change the way that you talk so that you sound more professional. Those ones really bother me because I'm really proud of being, I don't know that I mentioned this before, but being a first generation college student, I'm really proud of the fact that like I talk like a person. I say like, I have these sort of speech qualities. I like those things because they they're me. And I like them because they show other people that are like me, that talk like me, that look like me, that have backgrounds like mine, that it's possible to be successful and to still be yourself. And I take that really seriously as an educator, right? So in my professor role that I haven't talked that much about, like getting in the classroom in Kentucky, it's a really rural state. People are coming to the University of Kentucky from really great places. Many are the first, the first people in their families to go to college. And so I think not sounding making having it be clear that like there isn't a way a professor sounds is really important to me. I get that.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

What is something that you used to value that you no longer value in box zero? If you could describe what you would want your legacy to be as if someone was reading it, what would you want it to say?

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Shannon was creative and thought outside the box in terms of solving big problems.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

If you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be? And I want to know why.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

That feels like a really big responsibility in these these times. Um I guess I would want, I don't know, any law. I mean, there's so many things that I think could be different, but I think I would I'm gonna go with passing universal health care, like socialized health, because I don't think that you should have to have good insurance or be rich to get the very best care available. And right now, I think there really is, you know, whether we want to admit it or not in this country, there the care that you can get is really stratified by what you can afford.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah, no, it's so true.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Well, thank you so much, Sheen. And I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed this. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Um, I did too. This is really fun. Yeah, absolutely. And where is the best place for listeners to connect with you?

SPEAKER_03 53:59

Yeah, so probably my website. It is www.personality compass.com. And I can send it to you, Amanda, so that if you have show notes, you look to it.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah, I will put that in the show notes, absolutely. And I do just like to give it back to the guest, no pressure, but any final words of wisdom, anything else you want to share with the listeners before we close out?

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Yeah, I think you know, change is hard and change is scary, but you really are in the driver's seat of the person that you want to be. And it may seem like that's impossible, but I mean, I've seen it in myself. I've seen it in, you know, hundreds of clients, whether they are, you know, trying to recover from serious mental illness, or they just want to, you know, kind of nudge their their people pleasing and their perfectionism down a notch, right? And so it's possible for you too.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

I love that. Well, thank you so much, Shina. I really appreciate this. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. And thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of Mandarin's mindset. In case no one told you today, I'm proud of you. I'm voting for you, and you got this. As always, if you enjoyed the show, I would really appreciate it if you would leave me a five-star rating, leave a review, and share it with anyone you think would benefit from that. And don't forget, you are only one nine step shift away from shifting your legs. Thanks guys, until next time.