In this episode, M meets a psychonaut who has found recovery through mindfulness and Buddhism.
In this episode, M meets a psychonaut who has found recovery through mindfulness and Buddhism.
Good morning, afternoon, evening, wherever you may be listeners. This is M this is thoughts of an addict and we are back again. Sorry again for the delay. I know it has been a couple of weeks and. You're probably getting tired of me saying this, but business school is a little bit busy as you would expect. So it's all good. We are back now and. Surprise. We have our second person crazy enough to come on. Thoughts of that at it. That's right. We have another guest. And this guest isn't remote. This guest is actually sitting next to me right now. It's so this is going to be interesting. I hope he doesn't try to tickle me during the podcast. This is something I've never actually done before. I am. I'm really excited to be doing this. And this individual is a new friend of mine. I I met him. Couple months ago and we just connected immediately. We vibed great dude, and I am super, super thrilled to have him on this podcast today. And hopefully we can spread a little bit of recovery. And if you don't need any maybe we can spread a. A couple of good vibes for you today. And yeah, I would with no further ado, I would like to introduce my good friend, Mr. P. Hello? Hello. I can confirm that I will not be tickling you. So that's one thing. Already off the docket. Also, we do have my similarly anonymized dog. Oh, who's joining us in the room and hopefully it won't be making too many distractions. Will you buddy? Nope. Okay. Oh, we'll probably come in for a little half-time release. Cool. Yeah, I thank you for having me on the show. I am a long time listener. First time, polar having been here. Yeah. Yeah. So. I would love to little, know a little bit more. I'm sure the viewers want to know. What is your story of recovery? Yeah. So I. Think I first realized I had a problem in undergrad. I have been for my background is I am. A recovering. Alcoholic, but I'd say kind of addict in general. I've been sober from alcohol for five years in February. Yeah. And that was a long journey to get there. I think when I was around. I'm 31. Now, when I was around. 25. I really made 24. You and I really realized that I had a problematic relationship with alcohol and that you know, Everyone else. Would be drinking too, you know, maybe like a droid flavor of the, of the alcohol have one thinner, maybe, you know, into a party. But I would always, you know, kind of once I started always be drinking to get drunk. And you know, it's kind of that classic story of a. Once the once you're kind of in the clutches of your chosen boy, vice, or maybe it chooses you. I don't know. Oh, yeah, the it's it doesn't let go. And for me, a big problem was. I'm in New York after going to school. In the Midwest and my office had an open bar in the middle of it. That I quickly became the keg master of, and so, I don't know if you looked in New York that entire city is a bar. Everything you do, it has a bar next to it. You go to the opera, there's a bar. You go to concert. There's a bar. You go to a comedy show. Yeah, everything. Fuck you go to the Putin Parker's bar. And there. That was an issue for me because I went from binge drinking, maybe a few nights a week in school. To And when I say binge drink ambient in the very clinical sense of like, you know, more than three alcoholic beverage beverages and like, you know, hour and a half time span or whatever. I don't know what the actual definition is. Nobody does. Yes. I mean, people do. Actually, and it was funny because my, my first exposure, basically, I got, I got, I started this job and I was, I was drinking, you know, sometimes five nights a week to getting drunk, drunk, not like blackout drunk, but like more than you should be drinking. And Yeah. I actually was, this was a consulting job and one of our clients was a harm reduction organization that helped people kind of recognize that they had a problem and worked, walk them through a, basically a S a program to help them stop drinking as much. And They're defunct now, but at the time they paired me and it was all offered for free and since they were consulting client.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-2:And so I got my first exposure to the recovery process, which was just a, kind of an introduction. And they did a deep dive on like, well, what is problem drinking? And that was one. So at one point, I did know what the definition of binge drinking was. Cause they kind of put you through this self-education course and introduce you to a counselor. And then also a doctor that you met with every once in a while to potentially prescribe medication, to help with a cessation of drinking, which is naltrexone. If you're familiar with it was. Is a, is a big one that they use to help people will stop addictive behavior or smoking or in Canada. The one where if you drank on it, you start vomiting for a few sleep. That was like that weird Russian thing. It, it, I think it. Inhibits or. I mean, I'm not a brain, I'm not a neurochemist, but it, like, I think it inhibits parts of the dope meets us. That specifically to relate to and reward and cyclic feedback cycles. So it does mean, it mean that you take opioids. They aren't as effective. You're taking out there. Okay. That makes a lot more sense to you. I bribe the the one where you, you take it and then you have like violent diarrhea or something. I figured out a way around it in. This brings the idea. You just don't take it. Yeah. Yeah, well, so I actually didn't get onto naltrexone for awhile. For awhile. I just tried to work with the harm reduction, which was like, oh, you know, instead of having six drinks, try having two drinks or maybe limit the number of drinks either. Limit the number of nights you're drinking or a little bit the number of drinks you had when you do drink. And I tried this for awhile and it would kind of go well for a little bit. And then I would have a rough time at work or in my love life or something like that. And I would find myself binge drinking again and This is a thing where I guess like, just as background, I mean, throughout my life, I think I got the first time I ever drank was when I was 14. And I was smoking weed. Fit like a year after you have team. Yeah. And I think I got really into, as a kid to just this idea of like, oh, I'm so good at all. Like functioning and altered states of mind, you know? And I thought of it as a skill. You know your way, like I think I was practicing. And even like, in, towards the end of college, I found like I kind of gotten a ride where like, you know, you're kind of checked out, you're finally ready to be done. And I was just like, I would just like crush, you know, like, like most of the six pack in a day of, of like craft beer, it's unkind. And then like also just be smoking weed and just be like fucked up and playing video games like consistently. And that was a pattern that was repeating itself in my, as I was. Like going into my career basically as I was when I was living on my own again. And like, yeah, it was just like, I would, in my free time I would go home and I would drink and I would smoke and I would like eat right and play video games. So that. If I wasn't like going up friends and like really, I think the straw that broke the camel's back for me and made me start to pursue this is I put on a lot of weight in New York. And I had gone from like 190 pounds and college, like 260 pounds. By the time I was in like work working and So our citizens. This is harm reduction program, but it didn't really stick. And. Why do you think it didn't stick? I think there's a few things I think. This has always been an interesting thing to me when talking to other people who are in recovery is, is. There's abstinence. And then there's like, there's people who really can't. Fuck with it at all. They can't, they can't necessarily. Where. No, no, no, no. The swear friendly joke. Okay. Awesome. I feel like it would be, maybe I should swear when I say off them, but now I don't. I feel like if it's done, it's done. Yeah. But there are some people who can just do abstinent. Right. And I think. Like there's this gritty Anthem gradation of like, how addicted or not. I would dictate. Are you, but like how addictive is your personality? Like. How much delve it's an and it's not even, self-control like around this time I started actually. I've read all these books about willpower. Like, I don't know if you know this about like the whole the, the, the great reproducibility crisis that happened in the, in like the arts like that. Basically there were all these marshmallows studies about like, oh, like kids who can. Oh, the kid with the fucking marshmallow. He gets to Mars. Exactly. And it's like, they're pretty, they predict like performance in life or all these longitudinal studies about how it turns out that those world bowls dead and like, they weren't reproducible at all. Like in terms of peer review, a bunch of people went back. They were going through. Yeah. Really annoying. Reproducibility crisis was basically like, oh, all of these fucking things, like literally the only effect was like, they showed that like glucose gives you a slight light boost in willpower and like the standup, like 30 minutes. And like everything else was not reproducible and it's just like, it caused a massive, like that's. It's worth looking into because it caused a massive fuck up fuck around and like the entire psychology social psych space. Arsenal epicenter. At the time I really get into the willpower. And that was a lot of basis of, it's funny that all these books that were about this science is not a spring actually helped me a lot. I was like, And you asked me, like, why did I. I kept on. I kept on failing. It would always be. No, I feel like it was a failure of willpower. I would like be at a, be surrounded by people drunk out of their minds. I be in my office that just add three beer on tap. In New York, which is the opportunity cost in New York of having free beer whenever you want. It's like, if you're an alcoholic,$100 somebody. It's like these, that you're moving money by not drinking. Like what your brain does. You're like, oh man. I'm like re. like, oh my God. Like literally. We're doing free drug money. Kind of the reasoning though. Yeah. So, so, it would, it would always come down to like, oh, like this there's this bubble. And this is like, for me inside of your, like, I'm not going to drink. I'm not going to drink. I'm not going to bring. And then like, like someone you think is cute. It's like, Hey, do you want to like, do you want to be here? Do you want to go? I like it. Like, let's go to the end. You're like, Fine. Like, and then like, So, and then you, you kinda feel shame the night after and you're like, oh God, like I drank. I like, I like went back on my promise to myself. And then yeah, and then it keeps on and then it keeps on. Rolling. You build back up that confidence, you feel like you're not going to drink again. Until, and this was really my, the landscape of the peaks and valleys for me of, of getting sober was like, I would go for at first, a few days and then a week and then a month and then three months, six months I never got along in six months, thankfully, but, but sober before kind of finally breaking to and giving into the impulse. What was that? Fuck it. Moment for you that. Where I decided to go abstinent. When you were, you know, sober for six months and you're like, what were you thinking when you took that drink? Like, eh, I'm ready now. I'm. Addict anymore. Yeah, I think, well, I think this is the thing I've actually written about in the past too, is like this idea, I call it like the tiger keeper, which is like, you get really comfortable. Exactly what you're saying. It's like, I'm not an addict anymore. Like. Like you, you kind of have this naive belief that you, that you are fixed, that you're cured and you fail to recognize when you fail to accept that this is a disease that's with you for life. And for me to, to be honest, actually the biggest, like at first it was dating to be honest, I didn't understand how to date without getting drunk. And so like, I would like be sober until I had a date. And I'd be like, I should probably like it. My date's going to get a drink if we were, if I don't get a drink. And then eventually I got over that and like found some boys at eight people. And then like, it was like friends, like holidays, you know, like people being like, yeah, like. Let's celebrate, like, come on, it's going to games. With some champion and be like, We'll find one glass one. But like, what do you want to read when you're an addict? Just like release me for the strongest predictor of whether I'm going to be pissed drunk a month from now is whether or not I have. I'm drinking beer right now. You know, it's just like, that is like, so drinking a glass of champagne now is just like the first kind of step on that slope to fall all the way back into the ditch, you know, back off the wagon and But really the biggest thing for me that. The thing that I had to conquer in the end was first like travel. I traveled a lot for work. And so like, I would always do like, oh, I'm in a fun place. Like you got to try the local liquor. And then after travel, it was family. It was my, I have two brothers, two older brothers, and we had this almost, you know, at that point, like six year long tradition of like in, during the holidays, like going out, finding rare beer or whatever, like trying nice whiskey, like really drinking and talking about alcohol together. It was almost like the, it was like the one hobby that United all of us. And It was like a big emotional thing for me to like, give up on that because like, Hmm. I would literally that six month breaking point was like, I hadn't been home for six months and I had been living my life and doing fine sober. And then I came back and. I was like, well, I don't like. You hold these two things. You're like my personal sanity and my health and all these things. But like also like this ritual that to you has become like, almost like a, you know, an embodiment of family and embodiment of connection. And it's like, it's so easy to give into it. And for me, I mean kind of talking about the people who do harm reduction, the people who do abstinence, I'm really lucky because I can drink non-alcoholic beer and not feel. And I got really obsessed with him on alcoholic beer, actually. And so I was able to start substituting non-alcoholic beer into that ritual. It might say addicted. Yeah. Maybe. I have a very depend demic. I started a non-alcoholic beer review channel and yes, I was like, I spent a lot of money on a non alcoholic beer. The pandemic. I don't know there's I think beer always had that collectors aspect to me. Like, there's this, there's this there's this temptation that, oh, maybe I can catch them all. You know, maybe I try all the best beers in the world and be able to speak knowledgeably about. How to catch them all. Exactly. Yes. Fear. Just like Pokemon. Yeah. I think not really appealed to me because it's like, there's like, instead of there being 20,000 of them, there's like 200. But yeah, so. That was really the final verbal for me was was like that abstinence, like. Sort of absence that, that finally being able to say, no, I can participate with this family ritual. Actually getting drunk and drinking and To go, just to complete the circle. On what I was talking about with like the, the willpower stuff is that I was reading those books and I was like really frustrated with like, why do I keep on relapsing X, Y, and Z? And we tell you all these things about like, well, your environment is changing and you're not, you're not, you're not adequately prepared, preparing for environment. So it's like, eventually I learned like, oh, bring. Non-alcoholic garbage goes to the party with me. So it's like, when people are like, oh, why aren't you drinking? They don't say that because you haven't beer. And they don't recognize that it's on our call. But the biggest thing is to say your bright lines Which are actually a ment right there. So you bright lines are lines that you won't cross. There. There are things that completely obliterate the idea of a choice. Because instead of saying, oh, my new drink today. Am I gonna, am I gonna like work out today or make me do X, Y, Z. Instead, you just have a bright line, which is I don't drink. Yeah. It's non-negotiable rules for your life. Exactly. And like making it non-negotiable means that you don't have to expend willpower to figure out whether or not you're going to do it. It's just like, oh, am I going to drink? No, I don't drink. And it's like that really simple mental, like stepping over that line for some reason, made all the difference in the world to me, just like, oh no, I'm allowed to just be asinine. And like, That kind of was like the moment where I had stopped doing this harm reduction program, but was kind of trying to keep up with the thing, like the harm reduction program only lasted for six months and then I was doing it for like another year after that. And then, so now I'm like, 2026 and a half. I think. I read somewhere coming for from wrong. It sounds like you're, you're an expert in this. Is that. The key to willpower, isn't having the thing in front of you and like resisting it because all that does, is it like drains? The willpower it's like, you'll you have like, think of it, like your health bar, like video game, right? Your energy for willpower. If it gets fucking drain, drain, drain, dried, right. Then you're going to have such little willpower they're going to give in. Eventually the key is actually just not having the thing in front of you because then the willpower never gets drained. Yeah. It's really similar to actually a lot of the reasoning that goes into kind of like if you've read atomic habits, like. Yeah, definitely. But it's like, it's all about not, not just relying on like knuckling down and getting through it, but, but creating the environment and the triggers and like the stimuli that will make it. So that it's the easiest. Most possible, like it's, it's so simple to just stay sober. Hey. So like, yeah. And this was, I mean, all these books were like for a variety of things, but for me, it really. They really helped us remember. I'll have to look up and tell and like send you what the book was, but it's something about a leopard spots. Like it might even just be called willpower and it just has a leper. So I actually, then I moved to California and that's kind of where I. Finally tied the knot on like becoming sober. And there, it was a lot easier to talk about environment. You're, like I said, the whole city is a bar. And in California, it was like, people want to go out and they want to be outside all the time. They want to go to the mountains. They want to go surfing. I'm gonna go skiing. They want to, they want to hike. And it was like, there was, so there's something that's perfusion in my life about other activities and other people whose they are the one way they're related to each other. It wasn't breaking. They had a bunch of ways they're related to each other and. That was like kind of a Renaissance for me. So it's also, again the environment of the social environment, which I think one thing that people, a lot of people. One thing that's really hard for a lot of people when they quit drinking, is they kind of mourn their friends. Cause there are some friends that you can keep that, or that can completely transition to doing things with you while you're sober or doing sinks while they're sober as well. And you can have fun and you have just in the front, have you ever had. But you recognize that there are some friends you've had that are like their addict friends. They're the people who like got drunk with drugs with like, and like, If you, aren't going to do those things with them, or are you going to, if you're going to make them feel slightly, self-conscious about what they probably recognize in the back of their head is a really bad habit. They're not gonna want to be around you. It shows you what the friendship was built upon. Yeah. I don't know if you had any oh yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I definitely had a few. It's a shame and there are people who I've stayed close with, but very much, even now, 10, like not 10 years later, I guess, like closer to six years later. When I see them there. The way they want to relate as let's go drink. Well, yeah, let's get fucking shit face. Yeah. It's like, I don't drink anymore. They're like, oh, And there's this weird moment of like, well, what are we. Yeah. Oh, this is all that. We have to do. Yeah. And so I actually I'm trying to think of the last time I ever drank the last time I ever drank. Everyone remembers. Yeah, I. Aye. Had just gone through it. Wasn't a bad breakup, but it was like a breakup and I was feeling lonely. And like, I had like, This is like very personal, like. The mission basically like. I had a co I had a coworker who we used, like used to drink a lot together. Yeah. And. We were always like very lurky I guess. And We went to a conference together and like ended up like riding, riding the train home together. And I was, I was, I had just, it was like the first time I had fallen, like not falling off the wagon, I guess, fallen off the wagon a long time. And basically I was, I was like drunk. I, and I kinda asked her, I was like, Like, why did anything ever happen between us? I was like, what's the deal? Yeah. Andy. She was just like, dude, like let's not talk about this, this isn't cool. Like, I don't want to be in this situation. I don't know why you're putting me in the situation. Yeah. And like, we're still friends to this day, but like I went home and I like, kinda thought about it and was like, yeah, like, what am I right mind, like led me to think that it would be okay to like, Like even like, even though we had, like, we were friends, we weren't just like colleagues, like, but I was like, what am I right mind, let me think it was ever okay. Like ask someone who I worked with, like back question. Right. And like, Thankfully. I like it. To be honest saying an hour, doesn't feel that sinister. It's just like, it's just like, what's the thing where I, like, I kind of like took a long look in the mirror and I was like, this isn't really like who I am or who I want to be like this isn't helping me achieve my goals. Like. And they're like, and it's like today, like it like let someone else to feel like very uncomfortable as a result of it, because like, I just like was like, I don't know I was, I was ex like getting dry. I got drunk and I externalized my feelings and it was like, Yeah. And that's the last time I ever drank. I just was like, I was just like this isn't who I want to be. That's a very, very fortunate rock bottom. I've had other rock bottom. Yeah, but. Yeah, I like I did also I, so that was also my grind, but I relapsed really, really hard in 20 from one activity. Oh, Bye. Didn't really that fall on liquor. I relapsed on weed. And I think this is a thing that I struggled with for a long time. I think a lot of people did during the during the. We've been Dan's well, this was like late 20, 21. It was like, I have. After co it was like COVID was pretty much over. Right. Yeah. But we don't, I mean, I can talk about them more, but we can, we, or we can move on. Do you have more questions or, oh No, no, no questions for me. I'd just love to hear more about your story. This weed. For sure. I think one thing that you hear a lot in recovery groups and I'll talk about recovery a little bit. And one thing that you've heard a lot about in recovery is you're going to want to switch. You're going to want to substitute. And you're going to quit your vice and you're going to immediately like start smoking cigarettes or like, and I had already smoked a lot of weed, like I said, but like, look at any fucking 12 step meeting. Yeah. I mean, you know, me, listen, when I'm at 12 step or I extol all of, all of its values, but Jesus Christ, it's like a fucking chimney and these are yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, a lot of smokers. And like, for me, it was very much like I was like, I had quit alcohol, but like, I was still kind of using weed as a crutch. And I wasn't like smoking weed that much. But like I was still using it and it was definitely, I was using this similar way. And I think like, for me, my experience, when I say like, I'm, I'm an alcoholic, but I'm also an addict, right? Yeah. Like. I think addiction is really pervasive and anything like, I will get addicted to food. I will get fucking addicted to like, you know, video games, all going to take oh, binge on anything, you know, and like, So I would, I definitely had those. There was like some on and off. After I stopped drinking where I was smoking a lot of weed. And then eventually I was like, ah, this isn't really productive. And I stopped smoking weed. And then I was just like, oh, let's just do fucking hard drugs. So I was just like, Dude, I got fucking sent to, I didn't. I like went to the hospital cause I was having heart palpitations cause. So it was not much cocaine. Yeah. Like. I was like, I don't know. I was doing fucking like ketamine all the time. I was like having a loud. And I think ketamine blew up, like right when I got clean. So really. Yeah. I was like, yeah, it was like the sort of thing where it's like, it was very much like, I was like, and this is, this is very much real COVID times. Like I was doing really well. I was going to the gym every day. I was like, like, The finished and like healthiest I've ever been in my life. And I was smoking a little bit of weed here and there, but I had a very active social life. I had just met my wife and we started dating. Or might tune my, then be wiped. Yeah. Whatever. However you say that. But and then COVID happened and I kinda like had that blip. I think a lot of people have this border where we got like trapped inside and like, I had. I had always been a person who like, like psychedelics had never really been a problem for me.'cause. I was like, oh, I can do psychedelics. Cause I'm when I do fucking mushrooms or acid, like I, I'm not going to do it again for like a long time. Yeah, right. And it goes back to what you're saying. When you were 15. Yeah. You kind of saw it as a challenge. Can I control. Like psycho? Not no, no. Oh. Like, I was just like, oh, I'm just. So good at being booked up. Yeah. But like, I feel like when COVID happened, it quickly evolved and went from like, oh, like also lead every once in a while to like, I just had made some new friends that we were like, starting to hang out a lot more, like right before COVID. And we, like, I finally, I like started doing Molly for the first time. And like, for some reason I was like, psychedelics have been the hardest drug I've ever done. And then at like the switch flipped and I was like, well, like I tried Molly, I never snorted anything for, and I was like, whoa. I just can't be that bad. And so. After I stopped drinking like weed a little bit, but like really majorly cocaine. And then you had a name like I got into, and it was like, what I, when I went back to New York, I went back to New York for a little bit and for like a month. And like, I remember I played a lot of magic, the gathering, and I remember having this. Dude actually. Brave night where I bought like, Fucking two eight balls and just like add like a bunch of people play magic, the gathering at like this law, the New York, and just like, did what. Not have been a healthy amount of cocaine. And like, it looks like there's eight magic. The gathering players doing Coke. Yes. Exactly. I know. Wasn't drinking. Like my weird way of relating back to the friends I had. Yeah. Actually probably don't think about too much because like, I think. I, although I think I did have a problem with narcotics, like I don't think it ever got to the point where I was like, What I will say is like, is like I wasn't, I was sometimes doing our products in the middle of the day. Just like being casually fucked up and ketamine. I want to get posted doing. My job. Yeah. But never, like, I was like, When I ran out and they needed to get more. And that's probably some like justification of like all of them about whatever, but it definitely was addict behavior. Anyways So that all kind of progressed. And I, you know, eventually it's subsided after the heart palpitations thing, after I went to the ER, because I thought my heart was going to pull it tied to too much cocaine. Yeah. I, and I like chilled out. I like stopped smoking weed. I stopped doing everything. And that was like the first time I've been fully sober. Yeah. And I stayed fully sober for. About a year. And was very happily, fully sober. And then I went and hiked the Pacific crest trip. And. I was doing fine on that, but people smoke a lot of weed on the PC. And there's just a vibe, you know, you're out there, you're free. You're outside of society. It was like the tire and the cage, man. He's like, do you think you, you convince yourself no matter how long it's been, you always find a way to convince yourself that like, oh, maybe I'm not an addict anymore. Yeah. And. I started smoking weed again, out on the trail. And it was like, it was great. At first I was like, oh, I'm in nature. Like it's helping me appreciate things more, blah, blah, blah. And it like. Very quickly. Kind of gotten the way of things. I think I, like, I had a great time there, but I like very quickly switched from like, oh, I'm gonna hike. Like from fucking Mexico to Canada, which is a PCT is like a trail that goes from Mexico to Canada. If you don't know, but I'm like, I'm just going to chill out and like, and I mean, that's fine, to be honest, I had a really good time, but like, it kind of like softened the motivation to do it. And I was just like spend a lot of time, like walking very slowly, smoking weed, staying in camp until like 10:00 AM. And then I got injured actually. Who knows maybe it was because I was high and I'm paying attention, but I got injured and I ended up. Rolling my ankle really badly. And I had to spend a week off the trail and I like got very obsessed with Programming a game about hiking, the PCT one. Yes. Yeah, cool. It was cool. Yeah. But I think like, looking back, this was kind of like the beginning of like a very manic period, like of like a, what you could probably call like a drug induced psychosis. Maybe like, not in like a violent way, but in just like a I'm on top of the fucking world, I can do everything with. And So when I, when I got home, I like 30 doing this and I was. It very quickly developed that I was like, Pretty much constantly counting like hi all day. And there's a lot of people who are high all day. But this continued from like September of 2021, probably to. March of 2022. So like six months of like just smoking weed all day, every day and around. Like a lot of weed too, like, and I will tell you why it was a lot of weed because around like three months into this. So I'd been spoken lead again for like maybe. Five months at this point around three months, I started getting stomach pains and I'd wake up in the morning. Super nauseous. And I sustain. I don't know if you've heard about it. The teens, the humans, they call it scrum. screen vomiting. Do you just. Make that up. No, no, no, no, no. I'm serious. This. We're saying it's a real thing. At least what the internet tells me these. I don't talk to you. Principal. That's a bright line for me. It's. It's basically I don't under, I don't think finance is really understood by anyone who's. It's about the theories, but there's no decree, inclusive evidence pointing to, but this thing called Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome or canvas hyperemesis syndrome, which is named actually after a thing that you got with alcohol, which is alcohol light rooms syndrome, which is in the later stage of alcohol, your digestive track. It's so fucked up when you're doing all your calories through alcohol. That you basically thinks we're just Fox, right? And this. It turns out that like the mechanism, at least my understanding, it was the mechanism that makes a TFC really calm your stomach. Like really. To nausea. Also has this effect where it heats. It has this effect where it can slow down your digestive tract, but only in massive amounts. We're talking like smoking like almost an eighth a day for like months. Yeah. Yeah. And that is what I was doing. Right. Yeah. And. Yeah, so that's what was happening. And so it causes this extreme nausea in the morning. And of course you have something you very obviously have something on hand to relieve nausea immediately is weed. Oh, you smoke more weed and it becomes negative feedback. Yeah. And I like went to a bunch of doctors and like, they were like, The Abbey. We're not really sure what it is like, blah, blah, blah. And then eventually I would be like, like eventually, like when they got kind. They were like, do you smoke a lot of weed? And I was like, yeah, I do. And they're like, just probably that. Just gonna need the day. Right. No, it can't be that. Hello, this is, if you take a hot shower, it alleviates the symptoms. And I would take out showers and it wouldn't alleviate symptoms, but like, That's the only mix and works. It's not like, oh, like you don't have the thing, so you don't have the disease. It's like, no people are different in the way they express these diseases. And for me, it became really abundantly clear that this is exactly what was going on when I tried to stop smoking weed for a little bit. And at one way. And yeah, so it was in this entire time I was having my. Yeah, Ben fiance. And I were having a lot of fights. I was really, you know, I was not a good person to be around. Like I was really I was high on my own supply, literally and figuratively, like, I've growing as well of, and I was just like convinced I was going to do the next big thing. I was convinced that I was going to like. You know, I like. Didn't have the focus though. Like this game that I started, I stopped working on it because I was like, I like switched to another project. And let's switch to another project. And like, it was very much mania, right. It was like everything I started. I like, and I w I would, if anyone would suggest that I was being manic or anything like that, I would kind of blow up at them. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was really my rock bottom. I would say. It's more, much more recent, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, that's like, I think it's interesting. Like for me, it was a very big lessons learned about like, Yeah, you can go. So you can go sober from one thing and like, you still have, you still have the fucking disease, man. Yeah, the tire is always in the cage. You can't, you can't snooze on your duty. Like. Yeah. You, you can't assume that you are no longer addicted to stuff or you're no longer an addict because you're a fucking addict dude. Like yeah. The control mechanism in your brain that tells you to stop doing stuff. Doesn't work. Yeah, it got fucked years ago. He fried it. It was pre fried. I don't know. You're not, it's not your fault. They are addicts. Yeah, you're just stuck with it. Yeah. Anyways. So, so that was really rock bottom for me. And then after that after I stopped smoking weed there, I went. Globally sober. And I haven't really done anything since. Wow. Okay. So what, what brought about this change to go. It goes so varied. It's that rock bottom moment. And was there any recovery in their programs? Yeah. So when I first, the thing. Who was this? This was two years ago. This was two years ago. Yeah. This. This was the end. I think the thing that, so the first time when I stopped drinking, The thing that really helped me stick was I tried, I went as in, you know, I was in California in the bay area and I went to try a bunch of different recovery programs. Yeah, I went to harm reduction programs. I want your 12 step programs. I went to secular programs. Those are the three types of programs they went to. And the harm reduction programs very quickly. I was like, yeah. I don't really, I don't really want to be in a, in a circle where someone has encouraged me to just try one beer. Cause that was just kind of a weird. Listening to them. What do you mean by harm reduction? is sort of what I was talking about earlier, where it's like, you don't completely stop. It's not about cessation. It's not about abstinence. It's about. Reducing the amount you use. Okay. So it's like for like, you. And some harm reduction circles. You might run into like heroin users who are just like, yeah, I'm looking at high once a week. And like that's a really big deal for them. And like more power to people who like, yeah, that works for, but like abstinence is like the only thing that really has worked for me. It was like, as I was discussing earlier, like, I would just get drunk and keep getting drunk, right? Yeah. Or get high and keeping high. And so then 12 step, which Emma talked a lot about and then for me, the thing that actually stuck. I'm curious. I want to hear a little bit about your experience with 12 step. Yeah, I think you've talked about this. And then you can say whatever you want about. Like I tell my listeners all the time. 12 step work for me. It fucking doesn't work for a lot of people and that's totally okay. You just got to do what works for you. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, I think I, in your S your episode kind of about the high power stuff. Yeah. I think you, you mentioned that that is really what turns a lot of people off of the 12 step program. And it was definitely that for me, I just got, I fucking knew it, dude. Yeah, change these fucking words. Exactly 70 years ago, this was chill. It doesn't work anyway. Well, I mean, like, yeah, I got this vibe. Like I went to, I went to a meeting and like, there was a lot of God talk and like, I was just like, I don't think this is for me. I'm like, you know, it wasn't like, I was like judging. I'm not really judgmental of religious people. I just like don't, you know, what works for you? Yeah. And I don't really experience faith much as an individual. Like I'm very actually even jealous of people. Who've experienced failure. Really. Believe in a higher power and believe in a religious higher power, I guess. I think I've come around a lot more to your way of thinking of like, yeah. There's like, there's, there's such a thing as like a secular higher power. It doesn't have to be. Some big man in the sky. Yeah. But yeah. So that was, I think really the thing that put me off of the 12 step programs was feeling like there was like religion involved.
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-3:Yeah. So, So light life ring is actually brilliant. When we start to move back to the recovery program. Non 12 step. And it's really just a lot of people getting together, talking about their problems. Like they, you ground the circle and you just share kind of like, what's been up with you in the past week and then you, people are real there's I think, I think there's like such a, a date, like an important element to community and getting sober. And I can see why, you know, there was so much association with balsa programs from the church because church is very much community, right. And like in a weird way, light frame kind of became my. Not my church but like it was like you know why like got to interface with a lot of people from all walks of life who like were so different than like The the You know the two types of people that i interface with in my daily life and my job and my social life right yeah And like they have wisdom And experience and collectively you know you're you're dealing with like people who have been addicts for like More years than you've been alive Hundreds of years of experience in being an addict In those rooms and it's just like They were the people who like were at first like oh like maybe watch out for weed man like you know you probably like are just substituting
Microphone (Yeti Stereo Microphone)-4:I've been for alcohol. And that was, I saw that as wisdom back then, and, you know, I think. The one weird thing was I was when I did really relapsed super hard in the wheat. I was afraid to go back to group. Because I didn't want to admit that I had relapsed. I think that's a very real thing that I see go through, but like, If you spend time in group, you'll spend time with people who like come in, you know, you see them one week and they're perfectly fine. They've been sober three years and they come in the next week. I relapsed. And. I don't know, maybe they look like shit. Maybe they look perfectly normal, but like they tell the story and they normalize it. Right. And we all understand that this is a thing that happens to us, right. It's not a disease. I get. Get better. It's it's literally going to be that like tiger stalking you for the rest of your life. That's right. And that's fine because you know, there are much worse things to You stuck with for the rest of your life. Yeah, like. Some people can't walk, you know, I just can't drink. Yeah, for sure. And I think so I started going back to. Group remotely. After I had kind of like the, the heart instances instance and kind of decided to complete. Really bought in and then I had to stop doing it when I went on trail. When I got off trail, I was like I said, it was kind of in that mania for awhile. And so. It didn't actually the second one, I kind of got sober again. I didn't. Do it with group. And I think that was actually a big detriment because I went through some really dark times. You know, kind of reconciling or the shitty person I had been and like, I have, in some ways the mess I had made out of my life, you know, and that, what was the six-month one binge? Yeah. And. I wish I had reached out and like gone back to the community that had like helped me and foster me for so long. But When I moved here. To this anonymous location I joined a group called part of recovery. Which has been, I think really instrumental in kind of like. Especially as I, as I I've been going through, you know, kind of a chaotic time in my life a lot of changes. And this group has been really instrumental in keeping me sober. And what it is is it's another it's actually. I think it's, I don't know if they call themselves an eight step program, but there there's like kind of eight tenants to the program. Not that I don't know. I'm off the top of my head, but I'm pretty new to this group. It's like, do you think it's aligned at the April known path? I think so. Yes. And so M has got as BB to the punch there, but a recovery is a Buddhist recovery group. So there's definitely the one I attend as Shambala Buddhists, but I'm not sure. I think there are non Shambala. Practices as well. And it is. A calm combines kind of mindfulness meditation, but also recovery programs. So at beginning of the session, you said for, you know, 20 to 30 minutes, just kind of focusing. What's going on internally, complete silence. And you Yeah. And then you talk about. And you do a reading. Which is from a book which is called eat full recovery. And then you talk about the reading and you talked about what's been going on in your life and it's good. This is, it's been a weird experience for me because the group I've been going to is like, The most people that I've ever been there at once, us four people. And intimate often intimate. Yeah. And oftentimes it's due. It's just like me and the, and the host and There are nice things and, and. Challenging things about that. But overall, like, Even a community of two is still, you know, 100% more people than just you alone. Yeah. And it is really helpful to just be like able to talk through it because. I want to say there's a resentment, but like, People aren't addicts. Don't get. They like understand conceptually. Yeah, you have problem level. Yeah. Well, they just. They don't. I mean, I guess I can't speak for them because I've never been one. But they don't seem to know what it's like. Right. They're never in the fucking pit of despair with you. Yeah. I saw you in the pit of despair and they try to empathize, which is so great. They do. Yeah, until you've actually been in that fucking pit. It's a different animal. Yeah, exactly. And that's why it's. Great. That's why. Group is. So instrumental. It's just like you. Feel seen. In a way that you've not feel seen, like talking to a therapist, talking to a friend, talking to a parent. Yeah. To like a spouse, like all of these things could be. Helpful. And healing, but like talking to someone who you just look and you're just like, they know. They know, like. They have fucking, like, they have like fucking like story drugs off of a bathroom floor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like they. That is. There's something that's so healing about, like knowing that like, even though you've experienced pain and that you've been broken, that you're with this group of people who have all gone through the same thing or in the same process that are with us or with you together. That's just beautiful. And so that's kind of been my, you know, My path to getting sober and I'm, you know, and I will credit, but when I recovered for the second time from, I guess you're always, it's always the same time. Right. But like when I, when I One clean from weed. I definitely. The thing that really motivated me and spurred me to her was I recognized that I was gonna lose my wife if I didn't get. That she was not going to stick around in the relationship. I didn't get my shit together. And so, yeah, and I think the like group really gave me the tools to like, do that. Yeah. So it sounds like somebody that you loved in your life was, was the ultimate catalyst. Yes. I think it's same for a lot of people. Cause. I find that people who are deep in the vices of active addiction. Fuck it. I don't fucking care. Are you more about myself? If you really cared about yourself, you probably would've stopped already. Right. But yeah. I don't know, man. I think something about being an addict to the, we have this very, very deep. Deep empathy inside of us. And when we see that we're hurting. Other people. I think that that's the catalyst that spurns us to finally make that change. Yeah. Yeah, I think And, you know, like talking about 12 step, like. Kind of, I don't, what, which step is it? Where you go back and you kind of, you, you, you make amends. Yeah, that is, I think like the sixth one. Okay. Yeah. I think I'm. Still kind of making immense. It's like, there's a lifelong process, man. It is. Yeah. And it's But it's also like, The only thing there is, right. It's like, it's like this or the bottle. Right. And like, or the joint, I guess in my case, but Yeah, I think. I think it's interesting. It's like it's. It's a process. I mean, like I like retelling it all now. It feels so fucking fresh. Yeah. Yeah. Does that happen to you when you're talking about it or all the time? I was like, I'm fucking living it again. Yeah. Yeah, though. He agrees. He agreed. Yeah, so. I think I've mentioned this on my podcast before, but I fucking love Buddhism. I was really, really critical to me when I needed it most. When I had lost all semblance of my Catholic upbringing and I needed a form of spirituality. I ran into Buddhism when I was an undergrad. I fucking love Buddhism, which is probably the most uttered phrase in the millennial generation. But I think, I think there are so many. Amazing aspects of it. That are really, really applicable to addicts, right? I mean the whole thesis behind Buddhism is, you know, you have to assess the state, your desires and. I mean, fuck dude. If addicts could do that and they wouldn't be addicts, you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to know a little bit more like how, how did this Buddhism part. Hi into how you stay clean. Yeah. I think one of the really cool things is, is there's a lot of talk about, about kind of embracing the present. Like accepting suffering, you know, as, as it is. And, and. Like, I'm trying to remember. There's like, are. There was a reading recently that, that kind of talk about this idea of like, Impairments and this embracing of impermanent. Yeah. And like, Really. Accepting like, like one of the, I guess one of the best things about impermanence is like, You know that the only constant is change and that no matter how much pain you're in right now, even no matter like what suffering you're going through. Like this is only a moment in time. And that there is like areas all of your life ahead of you and, you know, depending on what you believe, you know, maybe otherwise after that. And That I think is like, Different stuff. Buddhist spring Buddhism brings to it. Is that like, I think. And a lot of Western thought it's like, oh, like distract yourself from the suffering. Yeah. Runaway from it. Find a way to find something else to fill that void and. Buddha Buddhism is very much like, no, like, except it like exist in the same moment as your suffering fully embrace your lived experience, fully embraced, like the Qualia that make up your conscious mind. Right. And. Live them and don't shy away from them. And, and, and there's something about like the honesty. The brutal honesty with the self, that approach. Like, what's your approach to meditation and with. Would you approach mindfulness that like. Is very counter to the nature of an addict because when I was an addict, I was always running. I shouldn't say when I was an addict, I am addict. Right. And I still do this with food and media. And I find ways to, I feel a little uncomfortable or feel a little ashamed. And I reached for some form of safety blanket. In the past is weed or alcohol now it's, you know, it might be cookies, but like, I think. Being an addict is very much being afraid, being afraid of, of what it is like to sit with your conscious mind to sit with. What is, it's just you and your thoughts alone in a room. And those thoughts are. Orchard a lot of the time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, In group, a lot of people, you know, past set are actively painful to remember. And. Buddhism, especially in like harder to recover is very. Very much about. Learning to view. Those those, those thoughts as an experience, as a passing storm, as a many of you studied mindfulness at all, this has probably caused a lot of the same things, but just like. To view your thoughts, not as something, not as you, but it's something that happens to you, right? Yeah, as a thing that you do occasionally, but that do not have to be permanent. You are not fixed. You are not sunk into them, but it is okay to experience them, observe them and allow them to pass over you. And like that is. Beautiful thing. Yeah. That's at least what's been really helpful to me. Yeah. So. So I wanted to double click on that point. So. Before, when a thought came, that was so. Disturbed and tortured. It may have compelled you to use, right? Yeah. But that, with that same thought coming in, what's kind of. The nexus of thoughts that happen now with this knowledge of impermanence? Yeah. I mean, like. One thing that I think is there is this. What do you meditate? There's almost like. It is a separate state of mind kind of going back to the second off thing where you, like, you sort of start to take a back seat in your head and like, You have like a wild thought or a fucked up thought or some of the painful, and you're like, You kind of feel the tug and you're like, I want to get away from that. And then you're like, well, no. And one thing that's been hard for me is this. Do you have, like, I'm noticing like, I noticed that I'm thinking I'm a terrible person. I'm noticing that I want to use, I'm noticing I'm noticing and like it. Very much depersonalizes thought and it's, I've heard it referred to before. It's like diffusing, right? You diffuse from the experience of thought as to the experience of self. And start to understand that, you know, And this gets, this is kind of straddling Buddhism and some other psychology philosophy stuff, but that's self is very much an illusion, right? It's just this, like it is. There is a collection of impulses and thoughts and, and, and urges that like we associated with self, but it's very much like there's just the moment we experience right now. Okay, David Hume. I don't have a philosophy background. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, I don't know. But yes. And so, I'm sorry, does that, does that answer the questions or. Yeah. It absolutely does. Yeah. And I was also curious to know, how does meditation practices, how does that fit into your, your recovery plan? Yeah. I mean, I think. One thing that like, In a weird way. And kind of going back to the willpower stuff. It's like, you sort of, if you don't take care of yourself, you sort of start to get this buildup. Like you need to muck out your brain. So awhile. Like, and I just, I acted, this just happened to me last night where I went to meditate. I like sat down for like a, like a 30 minute meditation and like, I just could not get down. Cause like the, the idea of meditation is like, you, you, you. And I'm in no way, an expert. So I'm sure some people might disagree with this, but for me, the idea of meditation is, is that you, you sit down and you kind of let your brain do its thing, plays out, it rushes through the thoughts, and then. Eventually, it kind of gets to a point where I was like, huh? I don't have much else like, and you kind of, then you just kind of buy and you notice what comes up and you let it come up and then you don't grip. You don't push it away. You don't grip onto it too tightly. You just let things happen. And then you listen to yourself, breathing. You listen to your heartbeat. And you pay attention very much to the, just the sensation of existing. Yeah. And yeah, it's very beautiful in that way. And. Last night. I tried to meditate and it was just like, I just wouldn't stop thinking about stuff. It was just like, oh, I needed this. Woah. And I was kind of just like waiting. I was like, okay, brain, like be done. And I, the 30 minutes was up and it was like, oh, Nope. No, I guess I had 30 minutes of shit to worry about. Yeah. And. I think like meditating often, it's like, you kind of are doing that maintenance and you're like allowing more of the thoughts to percolate up and like, eventually you're getting to that kind of clear. Headed space. And when you, when you have that space where you're like open, when you do get a craving, when you do get an urge, you're able to. Not experience it as an overwhelmed part of the overwhelming pay away report of other thoughts and worries and things that you need to do and, and, and obligations. But you're able to just experience it in isolation and say, oh, I'm noticing that I want to be right now. That's it. You don't have to say. And I don't, and I don't need to have a beer or. And I'm not going to have a beer. You can just say, I'm noticing that this is happening. And let's just thoughts, attacking other thoughts. Fucking muddying the waters. Exactly. It's like, yeah. Cave divers. A lot of times cave divers died because they kick up selves. Right. They don't, they, they make it too confusing to get around. And like, I think that. I think that happens. There's a lot of this like, like white knuckling. When you first get out of when you first start being sober, you're like, I can just fucking wheel my way out of this. And you very much need to find like the middle ground need to find the medium. If you can just accept that you're an addict, you can even accept on both the holistic and a macro scale that like a and this moment and in life, I want a beer. And that's just who I am. Yeah. But like, What are you going to do? Pay yourself up for it? No. Yeah. And I think. So that's been the really awesome thing about Buddhism for me is just like, The simple statement of fact, without needing to qualify without meaning to resist without meeting any of the stuff, just to be like, you know, I do want to do drugs. I'm not going to. But I do want to do that. Yeah, I mean, What's what's the alternative, knowing that you want to do drugs and feeling guilty about it. Feeling bad gonna make you do. Make you want to do drugs more? What a fucking vicious cycle that is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And meditation has been absolutely critical for me to like, It's amazing to me to see how many thoughts are going on in the background. That I'm not even fucking aware of. Yeah. I'll be having a shitty day. And I won't know why nothing bad had happened that day. And then I'll sit down. And I'll do my meditation. And then the thoughts are just swirling in my head that have been happening that I wasn't even recognized like, oh no shit. I've been telling myself. I was a fucking piece of shit all day. No wonder I feel that, but I don't even realize it until I do that. Meditation. Yeah. So I think I agree. I think meditation. Is. I'm going to, I'm going to make a bold statement. I don't think it's a powerful tool of an addict, but I think it's a necessary one. If an addict isn't able to. Take a look at the thoughts that are running their operating system. Yeah. I think it's gonna just continue to control them. And I don't think you can just battle thoughts with thoughts all day because that those addicted thoughts they're fucking strong dude. And I'll tell you how I know they're strong because every addict knows that they shouldn't be doing it, but they can't fucking beat it just through the power of thoughts. So, yeah. Yeah, so just dude, thank you so fucking much. I know we're coming on. This is so cool. I'm so fucking happy that you're here anytime. And that you're clean. Yeah. I've made a new friend. And just one last ask of you. I just want you to maybe just take, take a few sentences. What do you, what do you want to say to the addict out there? You're still suffering. That's a good question. You are. Whole. Without this. And. You deserve to be celebrated. And you deserve to be loved. And. Regardless of anything that happened. You're a human being. And. That's just a fucking incredible thing to be. I don't have anything particularly insightful to say, but like, Just know that like a lot of this starts with like, Learning to love the person you are. And. I know that it's fucking hard. Who does. When you're an addict. A lot of you. Can feel unlovable. But like recognize that there is a person in there. Who was worthy of. Bluff. Yeah. God damn man. You don't. You said that that maybe isn't particularly insightful. I think that's the biggest insight that an addict. And have is recognizing. That they're lovable. That they're worthy of love. Even though it doesn't feel it. Even if you tell yourself every day, I'm worthy of love. Every I'm worthy of love. Every single addicted part of your body is going to be saying, fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you P no, you're not. But I promise you being on the other side. You are so fucking worthy of love. Peed man. Thank you so fucking much for coming on IQ. You cannot believe we got. I'm other guests on here. I'm sure P is going to be coming back. You think. We might be. We might be having a repeat guest here. This was fucking amazing. If you want to send me an inquiry, if you want to be able to show it is thoughts of an addict show@gmail.com. Thank you so much, listeners. I love you all so much. Love yourselves, have an amazing rest of your day.