435: The Paradox of Control: When Letting Go Helps You Run Stronger

In this week’s episode, Kevin and I dive into something that so many runners (especially my fellow Type A personalities!) will relate to — the paradox of control.

As runners, we love our plans, our paces, our structure. Control helps us stay consistent and push toward our goals. But when that need for control starts to take over, it can also lead to stress, frustration, and even burnout — both on the run and in life.

We open up about some personal experiences — from remodeling our bathroom (hello, chaos!) to grieving the loss of our sweet pet — and how those moments reminded us that not everything can or should be controlled. Sometimes, the best growth happens when we learn to let go and allow space for life (and training) to unfold.

In this episode, we talk about:
 🏃‍♀️ How control can be both your superpower and your stumbling block
 🧠 Why surrendering doesn’t mean giving up — it means trusting the process
 💡 The mindset shift that helps you find freedom and flow in your running
 📓 A journaling prompt to reflect on where you might need to take more control… or where it’s time to let go

If this resonates, we’d love for you to take a few minutes to reflect and share your insights with us — or bring them to your next run and see what comes up.

🎧 Tune in now and let’s explore what it really means to find balance between holding on and letting go.

00:00 Introduction to the Paradox of Control

09:35 Cross Country Team and Control

12:34 Understanding Control and the Nervous System

19:33 Effort, Consistency, and Mindset

28:51 Shifting Belief Systems

30:50 Grace and Patience with a New Dog

33:03 Uncontrollable Factors in Running

36:06 Hormonal Influences and Control

40:05 Structured Flexibility in Training

42:31 Balancing Control and Surrender

52:03 Invitation to the Real Life Runners Team

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Transcript

Angie: 0:00

Welcome back to the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 435. So as runners, a lot of us, maybe even most of us, are type A. We're very organized, driven, data oriented, because that control gives us a sense of safety and progress. But there's a paradox in this because that same desire for control that helps us to succeed can also create frustration and tension and burnout. Especially when things don't go to plan. So control feels like safety, but it can also become a cage. So join us today as we talk about the paradox of control. What's up, runners? Welcome back to the show. Kevin is back with us today.

Kevin: 1:01

I'm back. I'm

Angie: 1:03

back. Thank you all, um, so much for all of you that. Reached out about the recovery series that we just finished. We did four episodes, all about the Science of Recovery, and Kevin did episode one with me, and then I basically did three on my own because the. Life lately has been quite crazy. And that's kind of what inspired this episode as well, in fact. Um, but Kevin's back and I'm glad to have him here with us today. So today we're talking about the paradox of control and I was kind of thinking about, you know, now that the. Series on recovery has ended. What are we gonna talk about now? I, and I really enjoyed this series theme and I think I'm gonna be definitely doing more series in the future. What did you think about those, Kev? I mean,

Kevin: 1:49

I liked the series. I listened to the series. I was like, oh, I would've commented this at that point. Like I was, it was funny because like on other podcasts that I listen to, I'm like, oh, this is a great podcast listening to you on the. On an episode that you're going solo. I'm like, and that's where I would've made that funny joke. Like, that's like, and, and then I would've interjected with this comment. And like, it's, it's funny to listen to, yeah. How I would've tried to contribute to it, but I thought they were just so, so very informative, so useful, and like practical advice in a lot of them.

Angie: 2:19

Well, thank you my love. So. Now that that series is wrapped up, and if you missed any of those, go back and check out the last four episodes, especially if you want to improve your performance and really just feel better in your running because recovery is really the hidden secret. It's not just about what you do in your training and your workouts, it's about how you're recovering and how you're maximizing your progress and your adaptation through recovery. But when I was talk, thinking about today's episode, um. Things have kind of been nutty around here lately, and I feel like I have not really is

Kevin: 2:52

an interesting word choice.

Angie: 2:53

The last few months, I would say lately is, you know, things have been kind of weird and I haven't really been myself, and there's a lot of reasons for that. But one of the big reasons that kind of all this is happening is our bathroom renovation. So those of you that have followed here on the podcast, I think we've talked about it a little bit on social media. I've talked about it a little bit, but. I was thinking about the bathroom renovation. So long story short, we found mold in our girl's bathroom. So this was on July 1st, was when the mold remediation company actually came out and said, uh, this doesn't look good. We're gonna have to cut into the wall. And, and so they started basically the bathroom demolition on July 8th. So really that first week of July. And my girls have not had a bathroom since then and they have had a partial bathroom for maybe a month or two.'cause they're long, like we had to, uh, file claims with the insurance and then we had to file two claims. And so they repaired part of the bathroom, but not the whole thing and the shower. Is almost done. We are almost to a fully functioning bathroom. So the majority of the reconstruction is done. We're just kind of waiting on some, some plumbing and some details. At this point.

Kevin: 4:13

We might actually have a usable bathroom by the time you're listening to this, which is super on Thursday, which is exciting for everybody. On

Angie: 4:19

Thursday when we release this, everything should be completed. So, um, we're crossing our fingers, but I feel like this is just an example of control and really lack of control, and I am the kind of person. That likes control, as I think probably a lot of our listeners are. I think as runners, that's really a big part of who we are. We like, you know, we're type A, we like to control things. Running seems like a very controllable thing in theory, which if you've been running for any given length of time, you know that's not always the case. And you know that progress is not linear. We've mentioned that many times on the podcast, but I feel like this bathroom renovation was really. Just continuous examples and continuous proof to me that there are a lot of things that I can control, and there's also a lot of things that are out of my control that I need to let go of because trying to hold onto it and trying and just getting frustrated or getting stressed out about the situation really isn't doing much. And there is a lot of things that were outside of my control I couldn't control. The speed with which the claim was approved and the insurance and the contractors and everything on that end. But I also acknowledge that there were a lot of things that were in my control that I also delayed, that I, I didn't make the decisions that I needed to make quickly enough, like picking out the tile or ordering the fixtures, um, because I didn't wanna mess it up. You know, I, I wanted this bathroom to look beautiful and. I wanted it to be quote unquote worth. Worth it, right? Like worth all of the hassle that we were going through. And although I have a wonderful husband and wonderful children, a lot of these decisions really fell on my shoulders.

Kevin: 6:07

No, pretty much all of the decisions fell on your shoulders. Um, and a lot of the supervis supervision of the construction itself,'cause you work from here. So then you work. Trapped in the house on these days where like construction was actually taking place or you were trapped even when construction wasn't taking place.'cause it's like, oh, they're going to show up at some point in time today.

Angie: 6:28

Or they would, they were supposed to show up at eight 30 and they ended up showing up at 1130.

Kevin: 6:32

Right. But that you're still trapped from eight 30 to 1130 because you, I don't know when they're gonna show up. Right. They're gonna show up at seven. Well, they're supposed to be here at 1130, so it's nine. I probably shouldn't leave. They could be here any minute or two and a half hours from now. Right. Isn't it? Basically all of it dropped on you, and it was a matter of like. You trying to figure out what it was that you were capable of still doing inside of some of these sort of locked in parameters.

Angie: 6:55

Yeah. And then on top of that, we lost our dog in a very tragic accident, um, on September 1st and that, so I was just emotionally wrecked basically for the month of September. Um, I'd really never experienced grief like that, so it was like I was in probably one of the worst mental states that I've. Uh, possibly ever experienced and having to make all of these decisions on my own and deal with all of the baloney and all of this, and there was a lot that I just decided to shut down and I didn't want to make the decisions. And I think that. You know, a lot of times we, a lot of us can experience that. You know, a lot of us think that, oh, if I just control all of these things, if I just plan hard enough, if I train smart enough, if I control every variable, we're gonna GU guarantee success. But life and running don't work that way. And when I thought, oh, you know, would this whole mold thing happen? I was like, oh, we'll have this done in just like a couple of weeks. And that's when they say that we as humans, plan. And then God laughs. Right.

Kevin: 8:02

Well, because one of the things you say is if, if we're able to just control every variable, and when you take this from a bathroom renovation where there's a lot of variables that, that we can't even think of, and you move it into, say, running, we're, we're, we're moving the conversation into, there are so many variables inside of running that we don't even think of that we're like, oh, if I just get the training plan, that will increase my endurance, but it will also work on my speed and I can handle the strength. But our body doesn't just like. Increase endurance. There's so many different layers involved in increasing endurance. There is, when you go in and do a strength routine, there are different levels of strength that are increasing. Are you increasing explosive power? Are you building size? Like, what is it that you're actually increasing along the way? So to say, oh, well I'll just, I'll control all the variables, is to be like, oh, well, I'll just balance these 10,000 things simultaneously. Yeah. You know, I, I can juggle, I can juggle three objects in the air simultaneously. But I can't do a fourth one. And as soon as you try and throw a fourth one at me, I drop the first three. So if, if you're like, oh, well I just control all the variables inside of my running, you're more likely to end up dropping all of the variables inside of your running. The more control you try and put over it. And I think that's where we, you've got this whole idea of the, the com, uh, the paradox of control. The more you try to control, the tougher it is to actually control the things.

Angie: 9:24

Right. And I think that. We don't necessarily even think about it as controlling the variables. I think of that we oftentimes want to control the outcomes, which we genuinely have pretty much no control over in if we're really getting down to it. There's a lot of things that we can't control. We can, we can influence the outcomes through our actions, through our attitude, through our recovery, through our adaptability, but we can't actually control the outcome of the race. You don't, you never know. There's so many. Variables outside of your control that influence how you perform on any given day. And this is one of the things we've been talking about with our cross country team as well, because our girls cross country team has advanced from districts to the regional competition. And so we run in regionals on Fri this Friday, November, what day is that? 14th? Yep. So if you're listening to this on Thursday or Friday, please keep us in your prayers and in mind. Um, we're Friday, early Friday morning at 8:00 AM. Our girls run in the regional meet and if they, if we are in the top eight teams at the regional meet, we go on to the state championship. And so that's obviously been our goal all season long, is to make it back to states. And so all season long we've been talking to both girls and boys teams about the things that we have control over versus the things that we don't have control over. And this week we are. In all of our practices, we're going over okay, going to the state meet, running well at the regional meet doesn't just. Depend on Friday. It depends on what we're doing all week long, not just at practice, but also how you're taking care of yourself all week long. And then I ask them, okay, what does that mean? What do you need to be doing? And they obviously know the quote unquote right answers at this point. They're like, we need to be sleeping well and eating well and eating enough and this and that. I'm like, okay, but what does that actually mean? What time are you gonna go to bed? Because that's the stuff you have control over. And so one of the girls said, between nine and 10, I said, okay. Is that feasible? Is that a a, a reasonable thing for you this week?'cause you know, kind of what tests you have going, you know, what your homework load is going to be at this point in time. Is it reasonable for you to go to bed between nine and 10 if you get your homework done and just maybe aren't on social media as much? Right? Like, these are the things that we, we talk about them with them because those are the things that we do have control over. And that's what's really important is to. When we talk about the paradox of control, the first part of it is recognizing what we do have control over and what we don't have control over.

Kevin: 12:01

Yeah. And I mean, so much of that is the, the kids, especially at this point in the season, they know the right answer and they can give you the right answer. But then are they actually taking control of that? And I think that a lot of that, a lot of us do that ourselves is, oh, well, I. I can control this. This is what I'm supposed to do this, this is my plan. But then we let that slip away and we focus back on outcome. Mm-hmm. Instead of focus on the things that could possibly influence like, oh, and it's to go with the race example on this Friday. It's just thinking about what do I have to do for those 20 to 25 minutes? Right. And that is. Not at all what you need to be focusing on. You need to focus on the next five days. Mm-hmm. We really need to be focused on the last 12 weeks. Mm-hmm. To make sure that this race on Friday actually plays out. Correct. And knowing the correct answer of being like, oh, well I need to make sure that I eat a good breakfast. Sounds good. Unless you then don't bother setting your alarm so that you get up in time to actually eat a breakfast. Yeah. Like having the answer is way different than actually taking control and following through with the inputs.

Angie: 13:05

Yeah. So before we jump into, you know, the things that we can control versus the things that we can't control, I think it's important for us to first understand why we crave control and how this relates to our nervous system. So last episode. In episode number four of our recovery series, episode 4 34, I talked about our nervous system and why that really is the hidden driver of our performance and our recovery. And there's a lot of different ways that we can look at our nervous system. And last week we talked about the sympathetic nervous system versus the parasympathetic nervous system. So we've got our fight and flight and performance system, and then we have our rest and digest and repair system. That's our parasympathetic, and so our brains. Are wired to seek predictability. We as humans want to be able to predict what is going to happen because that is safety. When we have certainty that our brain interprets that as danger in our primal wiring, that's unsafe, we have to know. What's coming next? So when something feels unpredictable, whether that's our training or race, or your changing body in perimenopause, if you're a woman over 40 and you're experiencing some hormonal shifts and your body doesn't know what's going on, we feel stressed and our nervous system kicks into fight or flight motor sympathetic activation. But the paradox of that is that when we are trying to control everything, that actually keeps us even more dysregulated. It tells the nervous system that the world is not safe unless I manage every detail. And if you are someone that has ever suffered from anxiety, you know what this feels like because that is one of the big drivers of anxiety. Is that, and even OCD is that. W desire for control and wanting to control what's around you. And when you don't have control, then the world feels very unsafe and the details aren't what you want them, and you don't really know what to do.

Kevin: 15:00

Right. So it's basically like the, the complete lack of control means everything is unpredictable and, and we have this heightened sense of, of nervousness to the world around us. But the more we try and squeeze and control everything, the more it slips through. There's a line from Star Wars about that. The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems are gonna slide through. There's a princess, lay a quote in there somewhere. There you go. Um, but it's that, it's when you try to do too much, it's my juggling analogy is when you're trying to control too many objects simultaneously. All you're doing, like try to imagine juggling 12 chainsaws simultaneously, you're just gonna freak out on this. Like that is a very dangerous move to do. The more you try and do the, the less control you actually have, it's, it's turning your alarm system. All the way up. It's making your learn system so unbelievably sensitive because it says I have to control absolutely every single thing around me. So then the slightest thing that feels outta control doesn't set off and be like, Hey, something might be interesting over here. It says something is super dangerous, catastrophic over here. So the goal here is not just to give up all control, but it's more to redirect it. It's to focus on what we actually. Can control what we actually have some amount of influence over. And then to actually be able to let go of the other parts. It's like carrying an egg. If you hold the egg too tight, you don't have an egg anymore, you have a scrambled egg in your hand. If you carry it too loose, you've dropped the egg, you have a scrambled egg on the floor, you wanna just hold it. Control what you can. Don't control. You can't control where the yolk is, but you can hold the shell gently enough.

Angie: 16:36

Yeah, and I think that, you know, going back to our My bathroom example. This is where there are things that I wanted to control and felt like I, I wasn't able to control. And that sense of not having control paired with some of the other things that were happening in my life that felt like I didn't have control over, like the loss this very sudden and traumatic loss of our dog and other things, you know, that, that were going on, Mel made me. Even give up control of some of the things I did have, which is a very interesting thing that happens as well, because I do, I did have control over picking out the tile and going to, giving all of this information and signing the contract and paying the deposit and all these things. And there's a lot of those things that I just pushed back and delayed because I didn't want to have, like, there was just other things. And so I think that sometimes when we lose control of certain things, it can let us. Release control of some of the things that we actually do have control over. And so for example, to relate this to your training, if there's something that you feel you don't have control of, then there's a lot of times people will just kind of throw themselves, throw their hands up in the air. So say you are experiencing pain or you experience an injury or something like that, and you feel like, oh, now I don't have. Control because now I have six weeks or four weeks that I'm not able to run. And so then a lot of times people are just end up not doing anything. They don't focus on, oh, well, I can still do my PT exercises, or I can still be eating healthier. I can still make. Sure that I get enough protein so that my body can repair itself as quickly as possible. Those are the things that we actually do have control over, but sometimes I think that we can go the opposite direction and when it feels like certain things have been taken away from us, that we actually let go of even the things that we do have control over,

Kevin: 18:28

it's like, uh, a control snowball. Like, well, if I don't control this, then what's the point of controlling any of it? No. What's the point of putting my effort forth and try and control? Things that I still have control over. It gets a little tricky. Same thing happens I think in like the workouts of a week. If, if you, for whatever reason you miss the workout on Monday, there's some people whose brain checks out and they'll be like, well, I guess I'll get back into it next Monday. Yeah, no, you could get back into it on Tuesday. Like you could get into it the next day. Mm-hmm. Or you oversleep and you can't start your run at. Six, you overslept by 20 minutes. So if you start your run at six 20, you can't get the whole run in. People will just say, well, it's not worth it. I'm going, I'm just gonna skip that run. You could still get some of it in. It's a matter of, of accepting that it might not be exactly under your control, but you can still adjust. You can take control of the situation of the hand that you're dealt, like when, if you're playing poker, unless you're cheating. You don't actually know the hands that you're getting dealt, but you still get to play. Like you don't have to fold every time just because you're not holding four ACEs, you still actually get to participate in the game.

Angie: 19:33

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the things that we can control versus the things that we can't control. And a lot of these might be pretty self-explanatory or pretty obvious, but we're gonna talk about'em anyway. And also there maybe there's some things in here that you don't realize that you have control over. Um, and some things that maybe you think you do have control over that you don't actually have control over, which I think is important too. I

Kevin: 20:01

think that's a really important one, is the ones that you think you have control over, that you're like, oh, no, I definitely, I control that. And you're like, actually, actually you don't.

Angie: 20:08

Yeah. So one of the things that you. Always have control over. Uh, is your effort, like your effort level, like the effort that you're putting in and your mindset each day, you have control over. And I can say this, having gone through a very dark period in my life just recently, and there were some days because of the grief that I was experiencing and the the blame that I was placing on myself and the shame and the guilt and all the things that I was feeling that. I wanted to feel crappy. Like, and I, I, I knew that, and it wasn't that I was necessarily making that choice consciously, but I felt bad trying to. Get out of it. Does that make sense? Yes. You felt

Kevin: 20:53

bad trying to feel good when you were like, I feel like I should be sad today. I feel like I should. Well,

Angie: 20:58

I was sad. It's not that I felt like I should be sad if I was genuinely sad.

Kevin: 21:03

Right. But then, and

Angie: 21:04

I know that I could like try to get myself out of it. I could think about the good things and I could focus on something else. And that felt very hard to do, and I also felt like a layer of guilt around even trying to do that.

Kevin: 21:20

Right. You felt like sad was the appropriate emotion. Mm-hmm. And so, well, yes, you could have flipped yourself and tried to have a, a more joyful, a more happier emotion that day. It felt like that was the appropriate thing to have. Yeah. So it, it was in your control, but it was also accepting the emotions that you had on that day. But you'd also talk about your effort level when you're feeling really down on a certain day. You know, we, we give runners different effort levels to run it. There should be L two, L five, whatever it is. If you're exhausted emotionally, you're just really sad on a given day, L five is not going to be the same pace as it is on a day that you're feeling great. Yeah. But it's still, you can control how much effort you're, you're putting forth on that. Like it really is mentally is going to change your physical output.

Angie: 22:04

Yeah. And I think that a big thing for me was really just showing up, like my effort level was showing up. That was me putting in effort. That was me showing up for myself. That was me being consistent, because that's another thing that you, we all have control over your training consistency that you, whether or not you show up on any given day, and of course things can pop up and things can get in your way, but on a regular basis, you have control over how consistent you are with your workouts and with your training. And even on the days that I didn't feel like going out and train training, I knew that. It was important for me for both my physical health and for my mental health because I think that if I would've stopped running or not shown up consistently, that would've made what I was experiencing even worse. So I know that. My training consistency was definitely something that I had control over, and I think it's fine sometimes to make that conscious choice of like, I'm gonna take more days off this week than I normally would because I'm going to allow myself time or space to grieve or to experience other things that I have going on in my life. That's totally fine as long as you're making that choice consciously and not just throwing up your hand saying, oh, well life just keeps getting in the way. And I know that we say, oh yes, this is real life, and life sometimes gets in the way, but there's always a choice somewhere in the mix. There's, there just is like if you have something that you are planning on doing after work and then something pops up with the kids or with your spouse or with you and you're not able to go to the gym, you could. In theory workout later in the evening. If the gym is still open, you could do other things. There's always a choice. Somewhere you could get in a 10 minute workout at home. That consists of like some squats, some pushups, some planks, some you know, body weight stuff. Maybe it's not exactly what you had on the plan, but you probably could get something in.

Kevin: 24:01

Yeah, you can. You can keep ticking off the consistency and. If you maintain the consistency over time, that consistency is gonna be closer and closer to what the plan actually looks like, because you're gonna realize that you have more control over getting a workout. Like today, I plan on getting a workout and then scheduling changed, and that didn't happen. I could have still made it happen, but I chose. To not put picking up our kids onto somebody else. So I, I prioritized making sure that I could do my, my dad job and I didn't get a run. It's gonna tweak my training week, but then it just, it moves an off day to a different day, which is not exactly what I was going for. It's just moves the schedule around. That's all it does. Consistency still exists,

Angie: 24:46

but you made that choice.

Kevin: 24:47

Yes. I actively chose and I briefly was annoyed about having to shift because it's not the schedule of the week that I wanted. And then I was like, no, if I really wanted to work out today, I would just work out today. Right now I would text a few people and this is what would happen and I could get my workout in right now. But it didn't. I chose not to and once I, I consciously chose, I wasn't annoyed with it anymore like I was. Briefly annoyed. I realized that I could still work out and I chose no, I can just move that to a different day.

Angie: 25:17

Yeah. And so then that also reflects your attitude there, like that you have a choice over like recognizing your choice and your control over the situation. Went like was helpful to take you from being annoyed to being okay with this situation?

Kevin: 25:32

Yeah, completely like it. It went to neutral. It's not like I was stoked. I'm like, yes, I'm gonna move this to a Wednesday, but I was neutral to the situation. And neutral is a great mindset for a lot of things.

Angie: 25:42

Absolutely. So other things you have control over. You're eating, how you fuel, how you hydrate, what you're putting into your body. Are you eating enough? Are you eating the right kind of food to fuel the activities that you're doing? Are you getting enough protein? Are you getting enough carbohydrates? How are you thinking? About your fueling? How are you thinking about carbs? Are you thinking that carbs are bad? Are you trying to avoid, are you still in the restriction mindset? A lot of that you have control over, whether you realize it or not. A lot of us don't even realize that we're operating from those mindsets, and so listening to this podcast or other things that help to bring awareness to the those mindsets and how they might be holding you back and then allowing you to. Make a different choice is it's really important, right? So you have the choice to not restrict your calories. You have the choice to make sure that you are getting enough carbohydrates to fuel your runs, whether or not you actually choose that and and choose to believe that restricting is the way that is going to help you lose weight versus. I'm actually going to fuel my body for performance and I'm going to choose strong over skinny. That is a choice that we all have.

Kevin: 26:54

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. You've got that choice. And a lot of that goes back to mindset. Like you can make the choices about how you feel about food, which then leads to the actions about what food you are or are not putting into your body. You have control over your sleep, your stress management. You have control over scheduling your rest days. To an extent, like there's, as we just said, like I just had to move a rest day to today. That was not planned, but it goes right back to I have control over my overall training consistency and I can manage my sleep and training consistency in balance over the weekend. We sit up really late on one night, but I was still able to sleep in a little extra the next day and still get in the run that I was going for. So you balance these things and you're able to control. Several things simultaneously. Like it's not exactly my juggling metaphor. I can control more than three. I just can't control 10,000. Like I can control several things simultaneously and I balance the control of one with the control over the other. I balance out my training consistency, my fueling my sleep, my rest days. They all work together because that's how a life training plan actually works.

Angie: 28:06

Yeah. And that's ultimately what helped us. Design our running reconnected method because it's not just your running that matters, it's all of these things that go into how you feel, how you perform, how your body's able to avoid injury and, and be consistent. Because all of those things make a difference. So if you're like, oh, well I don't have control over it, I got injured. Okay, well, what led to that injury? Did you slack off on your strength and mobility work? Did you not get enough sleep? Were you not fueling your body? Like all of those things led to that injury. It wasn't just how much you were running or the speed with which you were running, it was all the things that went up into that. And that includes your thoughts that you choose to believe about yourself, like the mindset. Piece, and this is why that's one of the first things that we talk about inside of our running reconnected method is your identity, your identity as a runner, as an athlete. The thi the things that you choose to believe about yourself, about what you're capable of, about what is going to make you a better runner. Do you think that more training is going to always make you a better runner? Do you think that restricting calories is going to help you lose weight? All of these things play a huge role in. How you're able to perform and you do have control over that. It's not easy. Right. And I think that it, it's, it's when we talk about it like, oh yeah, you've got control over this stuff. That doesn't mean it's easy to control those things because if you are have a thought pattern that you've been believing, whether it's about yourself or running or weight loss, and you've been believing that for decades, that is not going to be. An easy thing to just stop believing and rewrite. I mean, for some people it is. Some people can just once, once you bring the awareness to it, there's a, there's some people out there that can say, oh, okay, cool. I'm not gonna believe that anymore. I'm gonna go believe this thing over here and stop, start operating from this belief system.'cause that's essentially what you wanna do is start operating from a new belief system that's going to lead you to the things that you want. However, when we have. A way that our brain is programmed and we have that very well worn path in the woods. That's where our brain wants to keep going. So it's oftentimes, for most people, I would say, requires a lot of redirection at the beginning. You have to bring the awareness to the thought pattern that you want to change. You want to. Figure out what you want to change it to. And then you have to recognize that your brain's gonna wanna keep going the old way and you're gonna have to bring it back. And then it's gonna try go going all again, and you're gonna bring it back. And the intensity and the frequency of the thoughts are going to decrease with time as you practice the new belief system. But it's still going to happen. It's not like it's going to be just snap and everything has changed, or you know, wiggle your nose like Mary Poppins used to do. And the whole room is clean. I, I always, I'm sorry, I don't know why, where that analogy came from, but I've always wanted to have that power.

Kevin: 31:00

You went with wiggle your nose. Oh, no. Wiggle Your nose is bewitched. I immediately went to Bewitched. Oh yeah.

Angie: 31:04

No, uh, Mary Poppins is the blink, right? Yeah. She's, she blinked. She would

Kevin: 31:08

blink.

Angie: 31:09

Yeah, I'll do that one too. Wiggle your noses. Bewitched. But either way, I, I still always wanted those powers of like when the clothes just started putting themselves away in that Mary Poppins scenes. Fantastic. Right. And that also leads us to the big thing, which is. The grace and the patience that you give yourself. When your brain wants to keep going over to those old thought patterns, are you beating yourself up for it? Are you telling yourself like, oh gosh, darn, and Angie, like, why are you thinking that again? Or are you saying, okay, I understand why you're going over there, like. Let's just come back over here. It's that redirection. It's the grace. It's giving yourself patience. You know, one of the big things that we also recently experienced after the loss of our dog is that we got a new dog and we got a rescue. And he is two years old and he's amazing and. At the same time, there's some things he doesn't know because he's never been trained before. And so it requires a lot of grace and a lot of patience and a lot of redirection, and he's getting the hang of it because getting mad at him isn't going to do anything. But if I'm patient with him and all of us as a family are patient with him, he's learning. But it might maybe take a little bit longer because he is an older dog. There's some things I think he's picking up on even quicker than the puppy did too.

Kevin: 32:23

Yes. We are all experiencing grace. Yes. And patience with the new dog, who I suggest is somewhat similar to the size of like Clifford, the big red dog.

Angie: 32:34

He is not, he's just much bigger than our last dog.

Kevin: 32:36

He's three times the size of our last dog, and then he's actually being serious

Angie: 32:40

about that. He is,

Kevin: 32:41

he, he's like three and a half times the size of our last dog. Yeah.

Angie: 32:43

Our last dog was 13 pounds and he is 45.

Kevin: 32:46

So that's, that's much bigger. Mm-hmm. And it's possible that one of us here, um, was fine with a, a, a somewhat larger dog, and the other one said, oh yeah, like a 25 pound and then came home with a 45 pound dog. It's possible that's what happened and that we're all having grace and some patience. With the new dog, and we're taking a moment to respond and not just immediately react to the situation around us.

Angie: 33:12

Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and just to be clear, that 45 pound dog was cleared by you. It wasn't like I just showed up with a 45 pound dog.

Kevin: 33:22

That is entirely true. You did show me several pictures of dogs that were like 20 to 25 pounds, and then you visited a 45 pound dog, and you showed me, and I FaceTimed you. I saw how big it was. And I, I also, he, I als Yes, I saw how big he was. Um, it is, he's like a small horse. Um, I saw how big he was. I saw Maddie standing and hi, like looking up to him. Um, but. But I also immediately saw how much the two of you visiting and meeting the dog loved the dog, and, and now he's part of our family. So there you go.

Angie: 33:55

And that's the things that we controlled, right?

Kevin: 33:58

Yes. I can control my response. And, and, and now we've got a dog. Now we, and now we've got a dog. That's great.

Angie: 34:03

And he's awesome. So there's. A lot of things though that we can't control as runners, right? Things like the weather, humidity, wind, wind

Kevin: 34:11

is the worst. If I could control any of those things, it would be wind. Wind is the worst of all running conditions. No one can can differ from this. That is just a fact. I've run in all the, I've run in the hottest of hot, I've run in snow. Sleet. I've run in freezing. Rain, wind. Wind is the worst thing you can run in.

Angie: 34:33

Perfect. Uh, I mean if anyone wants to b to debate Kevin, I'm here. Let us know, um, race course conditions. The organization, the race organization, right. Like there's a, a marathon near us that a couple of years ago ran out of water and it was over 80 degrees in South Florida. Granted it was in December, which is kind of crazy. But they ran out of water. Who does that? And they also ran out of race medals. And that's so frustrating. Like, but you as a runner can't control whether or not there's a race medal waiting for you. As you cross the finish line, that is something outside of your control. But unfortunately it made a lot of runners very mad, which I think was very well justified. Um, you can't control other runner's performances or pacing, and that's one of the things we talked about with our cross country team. Like you can control how much effort. You're putting in, but you don't have any control over your teammates, but at the same time, you can influence your teammates. I think that that's a really important thing too, is to recognize that even though we don't have control, we can still be influenced or have influence over some of these things.

Kevin: 35:37

Yes, we definitely have influence. That's why running as a team, running with others is always super helpful in this. But when you said other runner's performance or pacing. I always thought about it as who you're competing against, right? When we showed up at districts last week, I was like, oh, we'll probably finish around here. And we did not. We finished a little bit lower because other teams showed up and performed way faster than I had expected. Mm-hmm. But I had no control over that. I don't know what their training looked like going into previous races versus their training going to districts. How much did they taper down for this? Did they taper down for any of their races early in the season? I have no idea on any of that, so I have absolutely no control on any of that. I can do the best I can. Like we all, all on the coaching staff, do the best that we can to get the, our own team as fast as they can possibly be. We can try and get the, the girls on the team to help influence each other during practice, during the race to keep going faster. But I can't control what anybody in a different jersey is actually doing. I actually, once they fire the gun, have basically no control on what happens with our team either, but. You've got a little bit of how much you can run, how much effort you can put into the race, how much that person next to you, how fast they're going, how good they feel that is outside of your control, which so many people show up and they're like, oh, well I've, I've raced against that person before, so I should be able to stay with that person. Maybe that person is having the day of their life that suddenly can't bring you down and be like, man, I am really looking terrible today. Maybe they just look amazing that day. Like, that's tricky to, to try and compare yourself to somebody else's performance.

Angie: 37:12

Yeah. Another thing that. I think is a little bit of a gray area of things that you can't control are what's going on in your body, like hormone fluctuations and energy dips and those kinds of things that a lot of women are experiencing in perimenopause and menopause. Even in if teenagers, you know, like if you are someone that's listening to this. Um, I know that some of our cross country girls have recently found out that we have a podcast, and so they're listening. So, shout out to you girls if you're actually listening to this. So if you're a teenager, this also applies to you, or if you have a teenager, um, that. Maybe you're a mom and you've got a teenage daughter, um, or a son, and this applies also like there are some hormonal fluctuations that happen that we don't have full control over. But again, going back to control versus influence, I think that we can control or we can influence some of the severity of those hormone fluctuations based on the things that we do have control over. Like we already talked about, like the sleep and the fuel and the. Hydration and the recovery and all of that. Because if you are su, super stressed out, right? Stress management was another big one. If you're super stressed and you're not getting enough sleep and you're not fueling your body, that is increasing your hormonal dysregulation because your body always wants to be in a state of balance and when you're not. Taking care of your body with the things that you do have control over that makes the hormone situation even worse. So there's gonna be some things that you don't have control over, like losing estrogen. Like if you're over the age of 40, you're losing estrogen. And unless you go on hormone replacement therapy to actually give your, your body. Supplemental estrogen. That's not actually something that you can control. Your body's just going to lose estrogen. This is a natural part of aging and perimenopause and menopause, but you do have control over stress and sleep and eating and all of those things that can control or that can influence how you experience the shift in perimenopause and menopause.

Kevin: 39:20

Yeah, some other things you don't have control over. Illness and unexpected injuries. I'd say that's actually kind of connected to what you were just talking about. Hormonal influences you, you have some influence over illness. If you take care of your body, you are less likely to experience illness. If you go through your strength and your mobility and stuff, you are less likely to get injured. If you have a solid running plane, you're less likely to get injured where you're not making giant jumps in mileage and stuff like that. You could still just land funny on a curb and sprain your ankle. Mm-hmm. Like that is, that's an injury that could just pop up. Life events come up that could be completely outside of your control. Mm-hmm. Um, this is a good one. The exact pace your body can hold on a given day.

Angie: 40:02

Yeah. And I think that there's a lot of people that think they can control that. I know that our cross country kids, when we talk about this and we talk about, okay, well what can you control? And they're like, pacing or like my pace and I'm like. But no, actually no. Like your pacing strategy, maybe you have control over, but the exact pace that your body is able to run on that given day, you don't have 100% control of.

Kevin: 40:26

No, and especially in like racing a 5K if you're racing other people in the race. Even your training, your your racing plan. Oh, I'm gonna go out in this for my opening mile and then I'm gonna come back in this for my second mile if you didn't guess correctly on how fast everybody else is gonna go. We've got girls on the team that are like, oh, I'm gonna go out in like seven minutes and then I'm gonna come back in like a seven 15. Nope, the race is gonna disappear. And so they were like, well, I can't go out in seven. I have to go out in 6 45, otherwise I'm too far back. And they made the choice right then. This is what I'm doing today. Today. I have to go out in 6 45. You don't have control of the exact pace. If you're not feeling great and you're like, this is my level five, I always hit this pace on level five. If you're tired, if you're not fueled, you are not going to hit the same pace on that day for your level five workout. Like you don't have control on the exact pace on any given day. It just, no.

Angie: 41:18

Yeah, and I think that, you know, to make it even bigger and zoom out even further, that is really, you know, we don't have control over the timing of progress or results. Like some people make faster progress than others, and that can be a very. Wonderful thing. If you're someone that's making fast progress and it can also be somebody, something that's very frustrating. I know that it's funny and also extremely annoying and frustrating sometimes when you see, um, women that like, or if you are a woman that, you know, there's a lot of people I've talked to that said, oh yeah, like my husband and I decided we are gonna. Start working out and watching what we eat, and they do like the side by side comparison. And the husband's lost like 30 pounds and the, the wife has lost like five. Right? Even though she's doing more and eating better and eating less and blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So, um. It that, but you can't have, you don't have control over that. Like the male hormones is, are, are different than female hormones. Like our bodies we're cheating. Our, our bodies just do not operate the same way. Exactly. Right. Like they're, so you can't control how quickly you make progress. And I think that's where a lot of runners get frustrated.'cause if they're not seeing the progress that they want in the time that they expect, a lot of people wanna give up. A lot of people wanna start changing things instead of just sticking to the plan. And just acknowledging, okay, well I still am making progress. It's just not at the speed that I want.

Kevin: 42:44

Yes, that's, that's very good. I think to summarize, trying to control what is actually uncontrollable simply drains your energy to focus on what is. In your control. You focus on the wrong things, you can't do anything about it anyway. And suddenly you don't have the energy, you don't have the oomph to control what you actually can.

Angie: 43:03

Yeah, and that goes back to my bathroom story, right? Like when I was thinking about all the things that I didn't have control over, that drained my energy for the things that I actually did have control over, and then I released the control that I actually had. And so I think that when we start looking at. The things that we have control over and the things that we don't have control over. What do we do with this? Right? This is a paradox and paradoxes in life exist all over the place. Maybe that'll be my next series. Maybe I'll do a series on paradox. That sounds like fun.

Kevin: 43:34

Sure, sure.

Angie: 43:36

That was a deep breath. But anywho, so what do we do? You know, we can recognize that there is a, this duality that we have. And that there's things that we can control and can't control, and we have to learn how to hold space for both. We have to control the things we can control and then surrender and release the things that we don't have control over because it's not about giving up. And I think that a lot of people think, well, if I don't try, if I don't hold on tightly, I'm, I'm giving up. And it's not about that. It's about releasing your attachment to certain things and recognizing that. Structure gives us direction, but surrender gives us peace. Like we can have both structure and control and also release and surrender because that's how we stay grounded. That's how we don't just drive ourselves sane and start spiraling, and that's where something called structured flexibility comes in. Like we. Need to plan intentionally because that's the way we make progress. If you don't plan, you're not going to make the progress that you want right there. What's the, what's the phrase? You either fail if you plan to fail. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail. Yes. Right. Is that it?

Kevin: 44:53

Yes, that is. That is it. I was sorry I was laughing'cause that was my dinner tonight. You said, well, what was, what was the goal for dinner? I said, dinner didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to. Yeah. And you said, well, what was your goal? And I go, I'm not sure. Mm-hmm. They're like, well, hard to reach your goal when you're not sure what the goal was. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know. It tastes good.

Angie: 45:10

Yeah. So I didn't really know why you said it went wrong, but you know, I'm like, I mean, it still tastes good. And you're like, and that was ultimately the goal. And I'm like, okay, great. But he wanted the skin on the chicken to be crispier and that didn't really work out, but. So anywho, we need to make an intentional plan and I think it's really important for us to all have a plan. You guys know we've talked about that plenty of times and not, but, but, and'cause it is both. It's always both. We need to plan intentionally and also adapt. Be flexible when things don't go to plan. That is really the key. And can you hold space for both of those things? I think that's really, really important. And part of that is learning to listen to your body, right? Because there are things that. We have planned out. But then if we're being really honest and, and listening to our body and trying to, or allowing ourself the space to adapt, there are things that maybe we shouldn't be doing that day. Like, like Kevin was saying, you know, if you're really tired and you have a speed workout that day. Should you, should you do it? Like, should you try to push through and do that speed workout or should you just take a, an easy day or a rest day, even though that wasn't exactly on the plan? Is that going to help you be more consistent overall, which is ultimately the plan?

Kevin: 46:31

Right? So then you gotta look on like timelines because the whole idea of. Planning intentionally, adapting compassionately sounds great, but if you always give yourself a little bit of grace and a little bit of compassion, just a little bit of space, then you never push yourself. Mm-hmm. And if, if you're always just like, well, I'm not feeling it today, so I'm not sure that I'm really quite capable of, of stretching, of hitting the speed work. I, I don't want to increase my weight when I'm doing my lift session today, because I'm just, I'm not quite feeling, I wanna give myself a little bit of grace. Too much grace means you're never going to actually evolve. Like, that's, that's the, the. The issue of going too far in the other direction. Yeah. Like trying to control everything and keep everything super, super structured means you're ultimately just so finely wired that the alarms are constantly going off. But if you're always giving yourself the grace, you don't have a plan. Yeah. You, you have a plan. You're like, no, no, this is my plan. This is the plan I'm following, but I, I give myself grace whenever I need it. If you give yourself grace every time you think it might be necessary, in all likelihood, you're not following the plan that anymore. And that's, that's how you go too far. And that's where the paradox comes in. You have to find a good balance of these things.

Angie: 47:38

Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I was thinking about that earlier in the episode and then just didn't have the space, and then I probably forgot about it, but I think that that's a really, really important thing to point out because yes, it is really important for us to give like, and I think this is where. Knowing yourself becomes really important. Are you someone that tends to push through and grind it out and grit through? You are someone that probably needs to give yourself a little bit more grace, but are, or are you someone that struggles with consistency and struggles with making progress and. Giving, like staying on a plan, sticking with the structure, then you might be someone that really doesn't need more grace. Like you can give yourself grace in saying like, okay, I, I acknowledge that this about myself, but what I actually need is more structure. And to not let myself off the hook all of the time because that's going to be a better way for me to get progress. And you know, most of us probably fall somewhere in the middle. And that's where it becomes tricky, is knowing when to. Grided out and when to stick to the plan and. Kind of ignore what our brain is telling us and when should we listen to what our brain is telling us and what our body's telling us. I think that's where it becomes confusing for a lot of people.

Kevin: 49:00

This is where I started my last comment, and then I kind of took it a different direction. I tangent myself. Um, but it's, it's on what your timeline is. If your timeline is, I'd like to run healthily for the next 40 years, then a little bit of grace might actually be the preferred method of getting to that. Mm-hmm. If you have a race in three weeks, a little bit extra grit might be the best way to get to that. Yeah. Like you've gotta figure out what is, what is the goal, and which one is the most important thing, because you're not gonna make a huge amount of progress if you don't push yourself. On a regular basis, not on a daily basis, but on a regular basis, you have to try and push outside of your comfort zone. That's how you achieve some, some more short term goals, but that constant, consistent grace that maintains overall consistency is probably the best way to run for the next decade upon decade.

Angie: 49:50

Yeah, no, I would agree with that and I think that that's, I, I feel like. I've been giving myself a lot of grace over the last couple of months, and then when November hit, I was like, okay, an it's time to get back on the horse.

Kevin: 50:00

You've given yourself grace, but you've also really gone for it in the weight room. I feel like you've given yourself more grace cardio wise, but pushed yourself on weights.

Angie: 50:08

Well, I mean,

Kevin: 50:09

that may just mean my perception.

Angie: 50:11

I mean, training wise, I feel like I've just. In maintenance mode, like kind of where I always am, but I have actually been increasing my weights in, in the weight room. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't been pushing myself on my runs in order, like for a performance, but I've been definitely maintaining my, my running performance and I've been very consistent with all of it. Even regard, you know, not even, um, like even considering all the. Crap that I've, that I've been kind of dealing with. I've been very consistent with my workouts because that is part of what helps me stay grounded.

Kevin: 50:42

Yeah. I know. That's what's helped me. Yeah. Like honestly, being able to, it's, it's why I have tally marks on the, the board in my classroom is I can keep putting'em up for miles that I've put in. Like as long as the tally marks keep increasing, I feel like I've got some sense of control. Mm-hmm. Even though it's not, even though like clearly I don't. Oh, nope, I didn't. I wasn't able to run Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm gonna jump back on it on Thursday so I can keep the tally marks going on the board. It gives me a feeling of control over something that I don't have a hundred percent control over.

Angie: 51:12

Yeah, so I would love to invite all of you, you know that now that you're listening to this episode, as we wrap up here, kind of your takeaway from the episode is to ask yourself, you know, and maybe even take a couple minutes to journal on this, if you can. Like, the first question would be. Where are you trying to control something that. You don't have full control over or an area of your life that maybe you need to lean in more to release and trust and letting go and just kind of seeing how it flows. And then the second question would be the opposite of where do you think you could take more ownership in your life instead of waiting for something external to change, you know where. Are there areas of your life where you could take back more of your power and more of your control versus just relinquishing that? And I think that it's important for us to always journal on both. You know, what am I trying to control that I really should release, and what am I. Not controlling, what am I not taking ownership of that I really could benefit from taking a little bit back, a little bit more there.

Kevin: 52:22

Yeah. And those are both difficult questions. Mm-hmm. Like when you start journalism, you're like, oh, I have actually completely released control over that and I need to step back up. And it's, it's tricky, but it's something that you should probably come back to every few weeks to see if you're actually in control of the things. That you should be in control over. Yeah, I know. That's the direction that I lean towards of like, oh yeah, I kinda let that one slip. I should really take charge. And again.

Angie: 52:43

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, truly, you know, when we start to put all these things toge together, that's really what our membership is all about. It's what the running reconnected method is all about is. Learning how to reconnect to your body's wisdom, to building trust with yourself and learning how to balance the control and the surrender, both with the things that we do physically have control over, and also the things that we, you know, mentally need to work on in these things, because that's really where. Freedom and performance all come from it. It, it comes from understanding that there are a lot of things that we can control and there's a lot of things that we don't need to control. We can just allow ourselves to flow and to train with intention instead of this need to have a, a. Death grip on all of the things that we've got going on in our life and feeling like we're failing in all of these areas if things aren't going the way we want them to.

Kevin: 53:40

Yes, I a hundred percent.'cause if you, if you try to grip too hard, you're just living a life centered around fear. Yeah. Fear that something's about to, to fall, something's gonna break.

Angie: 53:50

Yeah. And that's a really hard way to live. So I would love, if you know this episode resonated with you, I would love to invite you. To come check out the Real Life Runners team. You can get more information over@realliferunners.com slash team because that's where we teach our running reconnected method. We have video lessons. You get a personalized training plan that integrates your running and your strength training and your mobility, and all of these other things that we're talking about, like nervous system regulation and understanding nutrition and recovery and mindset. We have. Coach, we have lessons that you can watch on your own time. And then we also have coaching, um, every single week where you can come and figure out where you can improve and get, you know, feedback, personalized feedback for you to help you with your running and genuinely the rest of your life.'cause that's. The goal of this podcast and our entire coaching program is to help you grow as a runner, but also grow as a human mind, body and spirit. So check it out real life runners.com/team. If you feel like you're not quite ready for the team yet, we have a 30 day running reset where you can get. A really good taste of exactly what we're about and make a significant change in 30 days the way that I have that program set up. Um, and I'm actually running a special on that right now, so you can also check that out over on the website if you go to real life runners.com right on the homepage, you, you can get, get the links for all of it. You get the links for the podcast, for the Running reset, and then also for our group coaching program, the Real Life Runners team. So as always, guys, thanks for joining us today. Please share. And review the podcast, um, and help us reach more runners. And I hope to see you inside the Real Life runners team soon. Um, as always, this has been the Real Life Runners podcast, episode number 435. Now, get out there and run your life. I.