How Clear Policies On Detention And Layover Save Headaches | Final Mile 133

Nate Cross & Ben Kowalski answer your freight brokering questions and discuss:

⏰ Shipper delay until night — driver left. Is TONU owed?

📅 Broker changed appointment mid-load — who owes detention?

💸 $400 for 1,200 miles with driver assist — fair?

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Transcript

Sponsors And Setup

Case One: Missed Pickup And TONU

Rates, Detention, And Layover Basics

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Welcome back for another edition of the Final Mile, all QA. I got one from our Facebook group and it's growing, Ben. We got like almost a hundred and ten thousand people in that group. Um actually, it's funny. One of the guys that uh works for my company had no idea that uh you and I ran that group. He was like, he's like, yeah, he's like, I was talking with somebody on this uh Facebook group that apparently you're the admin of. Uh, but make sure you guys are uh hopping in there, asking your questions. I also pulled a couple from Reddit that I thought were were worthy of us answering. So um check out the sponsors in the description box to support the channel and let's get right into it. So, first one, I have a question. Booked a load with a broker, and the pickup appointment was at 5 p.m. I checked in at 10 a.m. and at 5 p.m., the shipper said they don't have the product. I reached out to the broker and they said the customer's not responding. At 9 p.m., I told or yeah, 9 p.m., I've told them I can't wait here any longer. So now we're four hours past when I was supposed to pick up. Um, please send a truck order not used. Anyway, they called me at 9 30 to say that the product is ready, but by then I was already at the truck stop. They said we will send it in the morning. So I moved my truck. What are the consequences of this? All right. So to summarize this, this is a carrier who was supposed to pick up at 5 p.m. So they got there early. They probably slept during the day. Um, the product wasn't ready to get loaded at five. Couldn't get any updates. So finally, four hours later, they bail. And after that point, it's too late, but the carriers already gone. The broker's like, hey, it's ready now. Um so the consequences, this is gonna depend a lot on what you have agreed upon as far as like is the truck order not used? Is there detention? Is there, you know, what kind of accessorials have you included in a rate confirmation or in talking with that that broker? And for brokers and carriers out there listening, these are good questions to make sure that you're either asking, if you're a carrier, ask the broker um about what how their customer handles detention and to news. And if you're a broker, have that conversation as well. If because obviously, like nothing goes perfect 100% of the time. So there's going to be times when a load gets canceled unexpectedly. It could be um, you know, someone called in sick and they're back, they're behind on on their loading schedule, so their you know, detention policy comes into play. So need to understand how that all works. My guess is in this situation, they probably never had that conversation. And at face value, depend- I mean, assuming everything that this person has said is 100% accurate and there's no more details, um, I would say that that carrier should be paid a truck order not used um for their time that was that was wasted. But um, we also don't know if there was any like, was it a it's hey, is it first come, first serve starting at 5 p.m.? Like I don't know necessarily like how they had it scheduled, but I mean if I if someone had to wait four hours for one of my customers' loads, um, even if my customer doesn't pay it, I'm gonna pay that carrier a truck order not used. Uh, or I could have offered them like, hey, I will pay detention for you, even if my customer doesn't approve it. Um, up to you know what you you could have the conversation as a broker at 5 p.m. and say, like, look, I know they said it's not ready. I can't, I can't get an answer right now from them. I will pay you detention at X amount per hour. How long are you willing to stay there before you have to bail? Like, have that conversation ahead of time. Because it sounds like the communication kind of broke down here, and eventually the guy's just like, I I gotta go. I'm like, I gotta go find another load. Right? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Same. I mean, as the broker, I probably would have paid the guy the 150 and asked him if he wanted to turn around and probably paid him the mileage to drive back from the truck stop to still make the load work and to help the driver out. If the driver didn't want to do it, I certainly would have still paid them 150 on the truck order not use, which is about the same rate as two hours of detention if you got two hours free. Yep. Yeah, I mean, based on that, I mean, I think it's pretty clear. I do think it's the result of that on nobody had any expectations to begin with. And like we say this over and over. If you're a dispatcher, a driver, or a broker before your truck gets to your pickup, both parties should know what happens if it's not loaded on time. Two three two or three things. One, what happens if it's not loaded on time? What are the detention procedures? Do you need to have a check-in and checkout time signed on your BOL? Okay. You need to be there by five o'clock, okay? What is the detention after usually two hours free? And what is the cutoff between detention and layover? Like all three of those things should be clear on every load. Because, like you said, if the guy, if they closed at nine and he got a text message or a phone call and says, like, hey, they'll load you at six in the morning, like you owe that guy layover, right? I mean, maybe not detention and maybe it's 350 layover, but absolutely, in my opinion, like the truck is owed at the minimum 150 truck order not used.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Here's what I'm curious on, because he said this driver's saying that the shipper told them that they don't have the product, but then the broker says they can't reach the customer. So there's there's some breakdown in communication there too. Like the shipper might not be the customer, but it's probably wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Probably a third party. My guess is like whoever was the customer wasn't the facility and was like, I'm supposed to have this product ready. I bought it, I paid for it. They said it'd be ready by five, and then whoever was either making this thing didn't have it, or they were waiting to get it ready, and that's probably the delay.

Communication Breakdowns At Shipper And Customer

Case Two: Delivery Window Moved Late

SPEAKER_01 6:14

It'd be like my phone call could have probably solved a lot of this stuff, though, at least or got figured out faster. So all right. Next question. It's similar. Who's at fault? Booked a load with a new broker for an 8 a.m. delivery appointment the next day. The broker changed the appointment mid-loading to 11 a.m. and assured on email that they will unload if the driver arrives early. Now the driver is at the consonant and they said they can't start loading until 12 p.m. and add two hours for unloading. The broker said they will only recognize the check-in from 11 a.m. and detention will start at 1 p.m. That's two free hours. Left me with one hour detention while lost almost a whole day. Okay, so um again, at so to summarize this one originally the carriers told 8 o'clock and then the broker changes it to 11, and it's not actually until 12. So what I would say is this is where documentation again is really important. So if I'm a carrier, I want to have on my rate confirmation that the appointment time is for 8 a.m. All right, because obviously he said the broker changed it um mid-loading to 11. So he sat there for three hours.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Um if you get all this, hold on. The one piece that kind of I don't I'm missing is driver at the delivery said they can't un start unloading until 12 for unloading. Broker said they will recognize check-in from 11. Like, isn't that better? The broker's giving the driver an extra hour saying the check-in will be at 11 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

time for when that should start. Yeah. So this is where I'm saying, like, if you the rate confirmation has a delivery time of 8 a.m. and they're gonna have two free hours, then really it should be 10 o'clock is when my uh detention should start. Whereas in this case, he's the broker is ignoring the original three-hour delay in the appointment time that the broker themselves changed. So again, this is gonna come down to documentation. So if I and I've seen these so many times in the past where like a carrier gets pissed and files on the broker's bond, and what does the bond company do is they give each person a chance, like, send me all the documentation you got, I'll make a decision. And like I've I've literally gone to one of uh one of my brokers years ago and I was like, dude, like I understand that you're upset, but the reality is this carrier is due, this money, the bond will likely pay it out, and we're gonna have to pay that money back to the bond. So suck it up and pay the carrier for their time that was wasted. But again, I'd be curious to see what the rate confirmation and and correspondence says. Because this is a delivery, not a pickup. So, like this guy, you know, very likely, um, had he rescheduled it a day in advance, shouldn't have been any issue. Like, hey, it's 11 o'clock now instead of 8 a.m. Right? Yeah. Documentation, communication. What I don't like here is that the broker changed it while the carrier had already arrived, for what it sounds like. So pay the guess is what I would do.

Documentation Wins Disputes

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah, I would have paid the driver the detention from the original appointment time to when he got unloaded. 8 a.m. two hours free. That's 10 to 1 three hours detention.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

And if you're a broker too, like talk to your customer. Like, hey, if the if the customer wanted to change it, you could say that you know, you could say, like, hey, are you guys gonna approve any um any detention for this guy because he's he got here for an eight o'clock delivery, and now you pushed it back three hours.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

So most of the time, this is a broker lying. This is a broker that knew he couldn't get unloaded until 12, and the customer wanted it picked up and it had a short transit time, and the broker couldn't get it covered, so he basically just lied to the carrier and said, They'll get you unloaded first thing if you pick it up now. And the driver's probably like, Well, you know, it's only gonna take me however many hours. I'm gonna be there at six in the morning. I'm not gonna take this load if I got to sit there until one in the afternoon for the same money. Broker lied to get the better rate, and then it played out probably the way the broker expected it to, and then tried to stiff the carrier. Most of those that I've seen, that's what's happening. Shipper has needs it picked up early. Once it can't be received until late, and there's a whole bunch of wasted time in the middle. They're super hard to cover loads, customer doesn't want to pay more, broker agrees to the shipper. Oh, I'll get it taken care of you, then screws the carrier.

Why Bad Broker Tactics Backfire

Case Three: The $400 Partial Debate

SPEAKER_01 10:58

It's my and this is so they added some notes basically saying like drivers sat for hours, the whole next load was ruined, almost a full day of revenue gone. Um and the broker basically just said detention policy. This is where bad brokers get a bad reputation, and you know, carriers won't want to haul for you is if you treat them like garbage, like their carriers are a necessity for brokers to do their job. So, you know, if you have a dispute between uh, you know, if a broker and a carrier have a dispute, I usually just say like, all right, you know, pay them what's due, fair, and move on. And if you just don't want to work with them again, don't work with them again. But don't don't risk your own reputation. Because like, dude, when I when I see a new Google review gets listed for our company and it's one of our brokers did something stupid, I'm I'm like, I'm like, all right, I know there's two sides to every story, what happened here? And then oftentimes we find out like the carrier was you know in the wrong. And um, but sometimes we're like, no, well, you you need to make this right because that's not the kind of company we are. We don't want to be known as the as the company that um you know doesn't pay detention out when it's rightfully earned. And especially I had one of these a couple weeks ago, and I had to like tell a guy like, nope, we don't do business that way. He had a uh customer that approved a tonu and the carrier didn't ask for it, and he was just gonna keep it. And I was like, No, that's not your money. That is the carrier's money for their time that was wasted. So all right. Last question here. This one was on Reddit as well.$400 for a 1,200 mile, one pick, two drop, and driver assist. Am I crazy or is this just disrespectful? I just got offered this. One pick, two drops. The first one's 925 miles in, the second one is at the 1200 mile mark, three pallets, 2100 pounds, driver assist, 400 bucks. Even as a partial, how is this supposed to make sense? So first thing I did was I was like, I'm curious, what is the LTL going rate for this? So I just did a one-pick, one drop from you know, I picked a they didn't tell us the origin, um, but the destinations were both in Texas, and there was like a screenshot of it. So I picked like Vegas, which put it at about 1200 miles total. So I did Vegas to the destination, one pick, one drop for LTL. The cheapest LTL carrier without driver assist, um, with a liftgate, one pick, one drop was like 700 bucks. And I was like, I understand the partials being cheaper, but when you've got multi-stops and driver assists, like, yeah, this is somebody okay. To answer the question, uh, is it crazy? Am I crazy or is this disrespectful? Yeah, you're not crazy. That is a ridiculous rate. And that broker's probably just hoping they can find a back call candidate or something like if you don't ask, you'll never find out, right? Um, that is not a going rate, though. Because I mean, I usually I usually factor in um like for a partial, you know, even if it's let's say yeah, it's three pallets, right? I still say like you're probably somewhere around like two-thirds the cost of a full truckload because that carrier can't guarantee to get their entire truck loaded, you know, with a bunch of little partials, you know, along the right the right route to make it work. So um I usually say like two-thirds is like kind of a guesstimate. And if you're adding in an extra stop, I'm probably going an extra$500 there and driver assist, probably the same thing again. So um yeah, that's a uh that's a pretty rough low ball offer there. But I mean, I see people complain about postings all the time. Like you don't have to take to the load, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

They're just offers.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, it is, right? If I go to the car dealership and you know, they got 40 cars that are priced reasonably and then one that I think is a rip-off, like, all right, I'm just not gonna buy the one that's a ripoff. It's got it the same way in freight. Like it's like if a customer sends me a load list and I'm like, I I can't get these covered at those low rates.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Like, all right, I'm just not gonna do that business. Move on.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yep, move on.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

It's like your neighbor that wants to sell his house and he lists it for twice as much as everyone else that's ever sold in the neighborhood in the past two years. Like, you can list it for whatever you want. Doesn't mean anyone's gonna buy it. Right? Yep. It's like and yeah, you can ask for whatever you want, doesn't mean anybody can or should take it, right? I mean, if I had to steel man the other side, maybe it's a new broker. Maybe the broker was like, well, 1200 miles, it's three bucks a mile, 3,600 bucks, three pallets is basically roughly 10% of a truck. So 10% of three grand or$3,600 is a little more than that. It's$400. Maybe, maybe they just didn't know what they were doing. But to your point, like if you're making three stops, you gotta at least be$150 per stop. Like, that's$450 just in the stop, not even in the drive. So, like, again, it could have been an honest mistake. I doubt that it was just trying to give both sides of the story.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah. I'll tell you what though, if I if I'm a carrier and I had a partial already and that one that one worked in with it, I'd probably call the broker and try to get the rate a little higher because the low, I mean, what's the what's the pain in it? So um, all right, good questions. Keep sending them our way, or you know, we get the juicy ones from Reddit every now and then as well. So final thoughts, Ben.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

One last thing on that last question, right? Is like same thing for brokers, same thing goes for carriers, right? Like, that's also just a starting point. If you're offering four, all right, tell them what it's worth for you to do it, and then say yes or no, right? You don't gotta take it personal. Same thing on the other end, right? Like, all right, if I want to pay whatever, 700 for this and a carrier wants a thousand, I'm not gonna be offended. We're like, hey man, this is what I can do if we can make it work, great. If not, we're not gonna that's part of the job.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah. Yep. Exactly, exactly. Cool, final thoughts.

How To Price Partials And Stops

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Whether you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right. And until next time, go bells.