Earning the Right to Lead with Jonathan & Alex Ross

In this episode of Born Scrappy I sit down with Jonathan Ross from John Ross & Sons Ltd., and his son Alex Ross, VP of Ops and Sales. Recorded live at ReMA 2026, this is a candid, unfiltered conversation about what it actually takes to bring the next generation through a fifth-generation family business the right way.

Jonathan has spent decades building one of Canada's largest and most respected metal recycling operations. A company now in its fifth generation, which puts it in rare company. Alex came up through the yards at 12 years old, studied accounting and finance at McGill University, and is now stepping into leadership having earned it from the ground up. Together they represent one of the most compelling succession stories in the industry.

This episode goes beyond the feel-good family narrative. It's an honest look at the dynamics of working alongside your father, the philosophy behind earning respect before authority, and what the next generation is already bringing to the table that the previous generation didn't see coming.

In this episode, we talk about:

👉 Starting from the ground up
👉 Balancing speed with patience
👉 Earning respect before authority
👉 Running a family business together
👉 What the next gen brings to the table
👉 And more!

Whether you're thinking about bringing your own kids into the business, or you're the one being brought in, this episode is full of honest, practical wisdom from people who are living it.

Born Scrappy.

Brought to you by Buddy.

The only all-in-one platform for buying, selling, and managing scrap metal.

Built for scrappies, by scrappies.



https://www.tradebuddy.io/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy/



WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

27 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing…

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand.

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I built THE killer scrap app, Buddy - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Kids rugby coach. YPO member. Founder. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Committed Stoic. Aspiring cowboy.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy

Transcript

Meet Jonathan And Alex

John's Early Lessons

Alex Joins The Yard

Earning Your Place In The Yard

No Pressure Succession

Family Business Dynamics

Hiring And Team Culture

Speed Versus Patience

Recruiting Next Gen Talent

Earning Respect Early

Patience and Operations

Business at Home

Tech and AI Shift

Raising Future Leaders

If Alex Walks Away

Twenty Year Vision

0:01

The scrap metal recycling industry has always run on hustle, trust, and sharp instincts. This is the podcast for traders and operators who want to get sharper without losing their scrappy edge. I am Stu Kagan, bringing you insights and stories from the people shaping the future of our industry. This is born scrappy. Welcome to Born Scrappy Live Remit 2026. Super exciting. Um, I do have two of my favorite people in global metal recycling, straight Outta Canada, one of the largest metal recycling companies in the whole of Canada. Really excited to have Jonathan Ross and Alex Ross joining us here today. So thanks for joining us guys. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Stu, great to be here. I just want to confirm quickly, Alex, this is your first time coming out, um, so people have the opportunity to learn a bit about you. Is that right? This is, uh, my second REMA conference. Sorry, San Diego's my first one. First time on stage. First, I'm speaking. Yeah. Right. So I'm really excited because. John, we've had so many conversations, you know, about what you went through coming in as the next generation and you're passing on the baton to Alex, but you've been through it all before. So for me, I think to put some context around this, like when you go back to when you were Alex's Day, when you were getting started and your dad was kind of like training you, what kind of went through your head in that stage and what were you thinking when you were 22 years old? Well, I was thinking what an opportunity I have ahead of me because, uh, going into it was a much smaller operation back then as well. Uh, we were more hands on, so there was a lot of, you know, coming outta university and you're into the yard, you're doing everything at that stage. So what I was thinking about when I first came on was. You know, like the opportunity that he's giving me. And it was a lot of pressure because of that, you know? But I wanted to learn from him too. My father was very well known in the industry, very well known at these conferences. We walked the floor, everybody knew him, and that was impressive to me, and I wanted to emulate that. You know, as I moved on. The knowledge and the interactions that he had with people from the industry, from his generation was, was something that I really looked up to when I first came on. And so I felt a lot of pressure because of that. You know, how am I gonna fill the, the shoes? Even though he didn't have a lot of education, he was extremely bright in the industry, and the industry is a very unique and sophisticated industry. So I felt that there was a lot of big shoes to fill coming in. Well, it's an amazing industry, but it's such an interesting conversation is because. You, you just touch on how highly educated were people in the previous generation and it just carries on progressing and they're getting more and more educated, um, and coming in with a whole new way of looking at things. I understand. So like, you know, Alex, when did you first realize that this wasn't just your dad's business, your grandfathers, this is something that was really gonna be your part? Yeah, I think, uh. You know, coming in the scrap yard and, and working my weekends and, uh, and my, my school breaks. But, uh, I was 12 when I started actually running forklifts and, and then material handlers and tractor trailers and with a Ross issued license. Uh, but I kind of realized, you know, I was probably 16 or 17 when I understood the opportunity that I had and to work with my father and my grandfather with that great mentorship that's just. Once in a lifetime and those people are in this, like don't have that opportunity. So I kind of realized I had to, I had to seize that opportunity. So I'd say around 16, 17, yeah. You were, was more than just an equipment operator. And when I've spoken to your dad, he always talks about bringing you in at 12 and making you do the hard yards. And I think we'll touch on that a little bit because, you know, I started when I was 18 and, and all about having to do the hard yards. You really can't. Get to where you are now without having done any level of it. I think times are changing, um, of how much time you spend in the yard, mainly because you come up with an education, so you, you have a different aspect to you, which is maybe the earlier generations didn't have, they had to maybe spend more time in the yard, but it's still so vital. To have that training in the audit. If you can start at 12, well, it just sets you up to be 25-year-old CEO. Hey, John, maybe not 25. No, but listen, I agree with that though, but I I, we have a different philosophy though because in our operations and with Alex and a son and my expectations, my father, um, the younger generations always want to have things happen yesterday. Every generation has that, but what we've. Really pushed for a lot of the people, including Alex. There was no exception. Whether he was an employee, like any other employee, uh, was to put him out in the yard and he had to learn like my background being law, the article thing that I had to do, and going into the different, uh, parts of law, whether it's corporate, criminal, you learn different divisions of law. It's no different than our industry. And it was extremely important that Alex would go into the yard. And you could start in the yard literally learning how to source sweeping. Sweeping was the big, that was like once you graduated from sweeping, you were like, it was over. You were a hero. Um, and then from there you progressed into the office and learning the logistics, working with the logistics team. And then from there, you know, you're learning in the sales team and learning all the buy themselves and dealing with the customers and the pricing and the complexity of, you know, with us in Canada, the currency conversions and the world market commodities and the discounts. Putting all those into play. So that's a big thing for us. You know, we've even had, again, no different because he's my son, but we put even our traders in the arts, they have to stay. And, and that's a big test for us too, because you bringing in a new generation, coming in. And the guys, the girls that wanna work in the yard, okay, they all stay in the yard and really learn the trade and the medals and stuff. Do, those are people that turn out to be very successful for us in our operations. Look, um, we could speak about this all hour and we could do whole bunch more hours. I'm gonna carry on, but I love, I mean, I wrote a couple chapters on Mario's book about this in particular, right? Like, I do believe strongly we have to have time in the, but there is also opportunities to bring people into certain fields. Maybe they're not. The next generation of your family. But like if you're hiring a logistics person, if he came from, was trained in logistics, he doesn't necessarily have to spend five years in a yard. There is opportunities for people to come into our industry. It's an incredible industry. We need source more people and maybe from other industries as well. So I think there's two sides that I wanna ask you, John. When you look at Alex, and this might be awkward, but when you look at Alex, what do you see in Alex? Is he like a different animal to you when you were that age? Oh. Or is he the exactly the same and see yourself? No, we're talking about generations again, and each generation is supposed to be smarter than an ex. Well, this is a perfect example here, and just because he's my son, you know, I'm trying not to be biased, but is a unique individual, always has been as a little child. Like when we would task him with something to do as a child, he would do it a thousand percent, not a hundred percent, a thousand percent. And he was very keen to do things. And that has transformed into his joining our business and, and the stuff that we've tasked him to do in our business. It's, it's been phenomenal working with him. It's been phenomenal with his, his talent and his ability. So I think between my father, myself, and now Alex, I hone, I really believe that he's got a lot. This business than we do looking back at the past. Um, no pressure. No pressure. I'm glad you didn't say because you said, you know, they say the next generation always gonna be smarter. I'm glad you didn't say, well, this one's an exception. That would've been, yeah, I would've somebody crowd hope not. Um, you know, Alex, I guess to you, I wanna know, did you ever doubt. You were coming into this industry, were you at college or in school and going like, no, I wanna be a rocket scientist or something government. Um, I, I would say, um, as I got older, I, it was more the realization that I definitely wanted to do. It wasn't like at one point I actually said, oh no, I actually don't wanna do this. Um, but no, I, I would say I'm full on into it. That's awesome. Yeah. And John, I guess to this as obvious, but did you ever feel that you had to kind of persuade him or suddenly go, you know, you're coming into this business when you're finished, or was it more the drive of him? No. Do, I would never put that pressure on my children to do that. I wouldn't want that for me, I never had that pressure either. Um. Just to clarify one thing though too, this is fifth generation sitting next to me right here. That's fifth generation of companies that don't make it past second and third generation. So that's the testament to the fact that, you know, we have this love for the industry that we've come in without being pressured because I believe that if he was pressured, if my other son was pressured and they're not interested in the business. A lot negativity. He's gonna be a lot harder to be more successful, to grow and to keep growing. So no pressure at all on him. This is all just organically wanting to be in the business. Over the last year, I've probably met addicts maybe five or six times. Yeah. And I know for a fact that that's very true. I haven't met somebody your age as hungry as you. I hired a guy who was really hungry and I actually said to him, I said, the only person I can compare you to is Alex Ross. That's true. Thank you. That's, and just so you know, anybody who's listening. I've had John on my podcast before, and for this one live, I said, you have to bring Alex. I think it's time Alex started introducing himself. He's gonna be a for a very long time. So I just wanted to clarify. This isn't like a bring your child to school there. Bring your kid to work. Bring your kid to work. That's what, that's, it's different inside of Easy Child to School. Same thing. Um, how hard is it being a father and son? You guys have got a big operation. There's gotta be times where it's like. No, we're not doing that. Or can you stop talking right now? You're embarrassing me. What's it like? I, I think we compliment each other a lot more than we, than we fight. And, uh, but if we have disagreements, we're pretty good about, uh, you know, coming up with the, the pros and cons to make it the right decision. Um, but I, I'm thankful for the relationship I have with my dad that we can, we can really, uh, put our heads together and I think for the most part, make the right decision. And if we make the wrong decision, then. That we father. Make a decision and make it right. Yeah. So even if it was the wrong one, you just put and make it right. Exactly. That's right. Yeah, I like that. Any job? No, we get a, we, you know what? We get along well. Um, Alex, again, I'll use his words. We have a good synergy together. Listen, I mean, there's, the filters are dropped in a family business, no question. Right? It's not the same as just an employee that's unrelated to the company. And when the filters are dropped, things can get set a little bit more freer. But at the end of the day, what we do really well at is that we don't walk away from each other mad. We walk back into the room and he points out things that I've messed up. And, and my, and he'll end up listen to what I have to say as well. Um, things that he needs to sharpen up with. But at the end of the day, by working closely together, we're very lucky in the sense that it is a unique situation, that we do have a very good synergy together. And I recognize the experience and the time that my, my dad's been in the business. So try and, you know, listen, when he tells me something, there's usually a reason for it. So yeah, that's vital. I think it's vital that you understand each other's strengths and weaknesses. As you guys know, I work with my wife. Now that's intense. Um, it's been seven years now. Um, I'm actually only 20 years old, but, uh, I think older because three years I've been working with my wife. No, the truth is as long as you know each other's strengths and weaknesses and you are able to have a discussion and a debate, and it can even get heated and actually come through that and still be comfortable, it's so vitally important. I think the one thing that's the most important thing I always did, you know, week 40, 200 people, and one of the first thing in any conversation I had with somebody where there was an issue was what is the person's intention? And when you're going in different directions. It's harder to have a debate and come out on the other side and feel that, okay, we've come out with the right solution. When you are borrowing sun in a business that you both want the same thing, there is no doubt you are not growing your own canoe. You're not growing your own canoe. These guys are in it. For those, it's easier to have those heat of debates because. You are just saying, this is my opinion, this is what I believe. I want the same thing you do. And my wife and I are exactly like that. Like we both want the same thing for our family. We want the same thing for our business. So it makes it easier. And I think when people look from the outside in and they're like, wow, that must be hard because I have fights with my boss all the time. The difference is sometimes your boss is playing the political game and trying to do something else that isn't necessarily what's best for the company. I agree with that a hundred percent. You have my wife, everybody's in the business with us, right? So you know, and we're all rowing the same direction. That is very true. And that is the common goal. That is the common goal. John, have you ever been absolutely right about something and maybe he was wrong or vice versa? Is there any time, like there's been a discussion and another one turned around and said, you actually made the right call here? I think it happens. It happens, like it happens often. Can you think of an example we push the other way? I see that where we have, you know, sometimes we have different judge on character of people. So in interviews we look at, you know, is this person gonna gonna fit well with our team? Are they gonna help us move forward or not? And uh, there's been a few times when I've noticed some subtleties or some habits in the person that I didn't like. Uh, and my dad didn't see it right away. But then. When we found out later on where those people had gone, it was the right decision. I said, I told you so. So not has happened. But you rub it in too. Yeah, but that's all part of that. You gotta shake my wins. What happens the other way too? I mean, you know, wrong both things too. Yeah. Listen, I mean, every day, hundreds of decisions are being made. So there's gonna be ones that we're gonna drop the ball on. Like the bigger picture usually gets thought out more. So you're not gonna have that many mistakes. You're hopefully not gonna have that many mistakes. Uh, but it's the day-to-day operations. It's the minute by minute decisions that we have to make. And again, make a decision. You make what your father-in-law said to you wasted. You make a decision, it's always gonna be right, right, right. I didn't think what I was thinking of the questions. About these decision making, hiring people and keeping people must be really hard because there's emotions involved when it's people. Yeah. You know, I know people get very emotional about metal sometimes, but when it's people, there's, you know, this person's been with us for 20 years, you know, and somebody else is like, well, yeah, but are they still the right person for this job? And that must be quite intense with it's people. Yeah. I mean, we have a, a way of doing things and, and, uh, attitude for us, and, and we've seen it over the years where people that just couldn't. Couldn't row with us, row the same direction. And their attitude was really poor, but they'd been there for a long time. And, uh, we're here to be good operators and do a good job. And if people are gonna have a bad attitude towards that and they're not gonna stay with the team, you know, and you know, there's been, there's been people along the way too where I've seen that we shouldn't rush to remove from the operations because there's certain things, and sometimes that would be, say, a disagreement between us. Well, no, this, you know, very. Passionate, he's gotta go or she's gotta go because, and then sometimes what happens is the light comes on, you get to start to spend some more time with those individuals. And uh, you start to realize that there's some positives behind those employees. You know, many years we've had that over the years, they had to go right away or they had to go right away. Yeah. But, but they have a great team. Uh, I'm very fortunate our. Employees or team, team members, we call them. They're really excellent. We have a lot of good people and, uh, I think that's what makes us a great company is is our, our team. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. What drives you crazy at work about your dad? I, uh, one, one crucial personality difference. I think it's probably, uh, related to my youth, let's do this well, is that I, I wi, I wanna do things immediately. I wanna take action immediately. I wanna make decisions and I wanna make a decision and, and then run with it. And, uh, you know, my dad, because he's seen so much, he likes to think things through a little longer. And sometimes my patience just runs out. Like I just, I want to do it now. And, uh, so that, that drives me crazy sometimes. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's good. It's like a yin and yang to balance each other out like that, because if I was making. Decisions too fast. Maybe they're being made too fast, but on the other hand, I, I do want decisions faster. So yeah, look, there's, there's a happy medium there. Like, I like the next generation and, and the hunger and the drive pushing, and no doubt there'll be times that your dad actually needs that, right? Because it's easy when you be doing it for a long time. You have this big operation to be slow to make change, because all you see is the things that went wrong. It's, that's a hard thing to do when you've got experience. Your dad does, but I think you don't stop. Stop that pushing. Listen, I, I don't think I stop. I don't think they know I can't help myself. You don't. You definitely do not stop. And I, you know what I, I, I respect that though at that generation and the youth of it all, like wanting to make decisions quickly and wanting it. Now let's go. Let's go, let's go. Uh, and, and that's, you are right. I agree. That's really important to have that channel, that energy. So we take that energy and we talk it out, and I just try to slow it down a little bit because listen again. One of the big things that we always instill in all of our managers and what's made us very successful is the fact that we let them make decisions now instead of micromanaging the old ways. When we were a lot smaller and every little thing was micromanaged, we really, really give our managers now the ability, it's no different than with Alex to make decisions, but make sure that when you're making these decisions. Besides them being right, if there is a mistake made because mistakes happen every day, um, that you know how to correct those decisions, I expect the statement of him as well. So the slowing down a little bit also gives you a chance to say, okay, if I make this decision, what are the, what are, what are the consequences of that? Resolve that. Yeah. And I want him to understand that a little bit better. Better, you know, coming in, not guns a blazing, just making decisions all over the place. Having to correct things because it was too rushed. The, the problem with that is, and why I like that they're making decisions is'cause the only way of to really learn is to fail. And if you overthink everything, you'll never make a decision. Never fail. Um, and business won. Move anywhere, make decisions, fail fast. I gotta, the very of my company, one guy on my sales team is in his early forties, other one's in his early twenties. They're looking at a new system to capture, um, customer information. And the guy in his early forties is taking his time looking at what's the return on investment. And he knows that I'm gonna be asking questions if this fails. And the other guy's like, oh, I found what, I'm ready to go. I looked it up on Google. I was checking or, and has the answer. And that only comes from having that experience. Or you spent the company's money, you did something. Dad now wants to know what the heck happened. I'll say again, it's, it's really good to have that injection for you and um, and one day down the line, there'll be more injections for you. That's great. Don't get me wrong though. A decision has to be made. We're not gonna hold on forever either. That's not my point. We can't analysis. We know No decision is also poor decision. I mean, decision can be just buying a parcel, right? What's the price to bad is that it takes you too long. You buy an a parcel it somebody else, but Right. It, you know, it's right on the top way down. I wanted get. Are you finding friends or people you know your age interested in joining you? Uh, I am. Yeah, I am. It's, uh, it's interesting the, the lack of knowledge people have about the industry. I think like people like used to do a great job explaining and really putting a positive spotlight on such a dynamic, uh, industry. Because, you know, I went to, I went to McGill University, I studied accounting and finance and it was a very competitive. Talent pool. Everyone I was with, all my close friends were going to work in banking on Wall Street or Bay Street and or go, you know, work in private equity or whatever. And for me it was, it was just, uh, you know, what are you doing? You're gonna working in the scrap business? And, but once people understood it, you know, we're the start and the end of the supply chain and, and, um, what the amount of opportunity there is. And they realize. Uh, and so I have a lot of friends in in the industry. I'm thankful for that too, and I think there's a lot of talent that needs to be, uh, scattered out and it's great. Brought into the industry. That's a good point. So here's one thing about the next gen. The next gen, a son to a family business brings that I didn't see. This, I thought was a really good example. You touched upon it. The fact is he's coming out with an accounting degree from a big university in Canada and he told me, uh, dad, I have to tell you like you have to look at university degree people, like even in finance. And I would've never really thought about that. Like, I, I have two degrees, you know, an undergrad and a law degree, but I would never have thought about it until he brought it to my attention that when you look at the industry, you look at where those guys are going to Wall Street and May Street and trial, uh, you're dealing with. Currency. Again, as I said, currencies, commodities, trading. You get to travel, international, travel, you get to physically go load into the warehouse there, you know, high touch. So he highlighted something to me that I never thought about. And because of that, we ended up hiring a very successful trader at the time, right at the university, our first time ever. Because my thought was always to take somebody, you don't have to have as much education, we'll educate. You're gonna get somebody who has too much education coming in and. Sexy enough for them. Or they could be down in Wall Street making, you know, hundreds of thousands. But he showed me that and that was a really good example of something that I've taken from the next gen that really works for us significantly. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, um, we got Jackie Ko here as well, who, you know, was the best young fighter came through similar to you. Yeah. You know, now leading the Canadian Recycling Association. Carrie, and it's just such a, um, inspiration to be able to see the young people that come through and then, I mean, it's great to be able to show them and point to Jackie and point to other people that go, Hey, they were here too. Look at where they are now. Right? You're not there yet, but to bring your team in, your friends in the government, but. This person was once there and now is there the, the opportunity is something that we don't show enough of. It's exactly what you said. We're in commodity trading. Exactly. We're in finance, we're in logistics, we're in marketing. We do all of this. And it can be sexy if you take the departments. If you take the whole industry, nobody thinks it is. So yeah, I think that's really important. We show them the progression. Yeah. And again, being young and seeing those different things that we don't always see. That was a perfect example of something that Next Gen brings to the table. But this whole group though, together by the way you speak about, you know, friends in the industry, he's really developing a lot. Carrie. Through Jacqueline. I mean, we're developing a lot of the next gen in our association. Rema has it. Of course Rema has a strong next gen and, and there's a group of them that all know each other all coming from family businesses or for some bigger industries that are not family businesses. And they all get together and they all talk to each other. And when they come together, here they're together. So I think it's nice to see the change of guards. Look, I, I tell all the guys in their early twenties that get to these conventions and start making friends. 60 years of being surrounded by these people. So you better start liking them yet. Alright. And he know you wanna have your dinner card full for every conference, not making your friends now, because you know, Jonathan has no space for dinners because he's made so many friends over the years and I don't doubt you exactly the same. I wanted to ask you, um, John, when you brought Alex in, was there a documented process or an outline of how you were gonna do things? You know, it was your first kid coming in or we like, hey. You've been. Go join the audience, see how it goes. I guess I wanna say no, there was a thought process too, because of course I'm not gonna bring him in and bring him right into the C-suite sort of, uh, situation, because that's gonna set him up for failure. It's gonna set everybody up for failure for transitioning. And one of the things that I've always been instilled by my father too is, you know, how do you gain the respect? It's, it's, again, it's a simple answer. Gaining the respect is by being in the trenches with the employees and showing them that you're willing to roll up your sleeves. Be a part of, you know, the operations. And that's something that Alice was very good at. Didn't question it, didn't, you know, say, no, I wanna be right in the office. Day one. Again, we were always taught being self-starters in terms of there was no real sort of formality of how we learned to do things. And it passed on to Alice in the sense that he jumped into a truck, we drive trucks from the yard. We moved material around our yard on a Saturday. That was the day that he would go in very tight spaces, long trailers. He learned it himself, figured it all himself. And then he'd get out the truck, he'd be helping cleaning, sorting, doing whatever he had to do to learn the business to do. And it gained a lot of respect. And so let's, let's fast forward to today because of that respect. So the, the same employees that are still there, they know him. They don't look at him as the owner's son, because that is a very hard thing to sell. That is a very big, you know, target on your back when you're coming in as the older son. So what we did by him doing that is now he's. Sneak it over a couple of yards and help transform the yards, like underperforming yards that he would go in and change the dynamics of it. And they had a tremendous respect for him, and I was very, very impressed to watch him have that respect by our employees. So that's a huge thing that needs to happen. I really, I think if I was to kind of sum that up, um, it's all about earning respect earlier, right? And you've gotta earn the respect. You can't be given respect from your father. You call me like, everybody now respect this young guy. Yeah, he's gonna now take over. He's gotta be owned, he's gotta go join everybody else and do that work. And when you start having an impact, that's when people respect you. You gotta take over a small yard and all of a sudden that yard floor is clean. Everybody's experience is gonna, customers are all of a sudden saying how much more they enjoy their yard because they come through, they in and out, quickly rises open or whatever it might be. It's making more money. That's when everybody else turns on and go, wow, this guy's actually gonna be really good for us. I totally agree. It's all, it's all those things and, um, it is really satisfying to, to see that progression. See that positive impact and it's a ground up approach. When you, when you walk into those yards, you walk into the yards, you're not walking in nose in the air, Boston Sun, you know, you are walking in, you were saying good morning to everybody. How was your weekend? What you know that is, and that's one thing, and I've had a lot of reports back from our manager. On how respectful he is to the employees and how nice it's to be working with them. So again, testament to you and your personality. Testament maybe to the family and the family business. But, uh, I think that's really, really critical because again, that is where you are either gonna win or lose if you don't gain that respect early to your point. Oh yeah. It's gonna be a real uphill battle transition. I agree. Yeah, I, George Adams says, and I've heard him say a few times now, um, you work for your employees. And if you go in with that attitude or you walk into the yard and you're actually asking for how things going, what if, you know what? What can we do better? Where they feel that you actually are working for them and trying to help them. Yeah. That attitude changes completely. Oh, I absolutely agree with that statement, George. Smart guys, that's had a lot of conversations with him and his synergies and our synergies are very aligned that way for sure. Yeah. That's awesome. Alex, what was the hardest skill you learned? It goes back to patience. Like honestly, it was, that's, that's been a, that is a tough skill for me to learn. Like it's just, it's counter to my personality of wanting to act fast. And so my dad's really shown me the importance of being patient and things take time and sometimes things shouldn't take time. But you know, people don't answer emails outside of our organization that slows us down or they don't answer the phone or, uh, you know, things that are out our control. But just learning to control the things that I can control and then relaxing on the other things, and, you know, hopefully it'll, there's a little bit of nudge. It'll work itself. I would say 22. Right? Yeah. That's pretty wise. I think one of the most important things I've probably only learned in my forties. Which was just the other day. Okay. I'm just saying I haven't been there for that long. I'm gonna say both. I, um, was the ability to worry about what you can control and you can't. Like, if I know that I can't control this, that's the only thing I should focus on. Yeah. Everything else goes in the side or rear view mirror and I worry about that at a later stage. Has that been dealt with? Has somebody handled that? But if it's out of my control, I move on and I don't hop on those things. Absolutely. No, I agree with that. Yeah. That's good. Well, that takes skill though. It takes some, you know, learning skill to get through that. And then on a really practical level, you know, learning the ins and outs of, of a shredding plan has also been. Very eye opening for me. I spend most of my time in, in our steel yard and with our shredder operations, and I feel like I've really come a long way from what I knew as a kid not really working with shredder at all to now. And it's, uh, it's fascinating the technology coming down the line and, and what's already been invented. A lot of talented engineers. John, I know it wasn't that long ago because you're so super young that Thank you. I know exactly. You were taking over from your dad, right? Yeah. Um, just the other day, what do you wish someone had told you when you were his age and have you told him that? You know, that's a tough question. I don't, I don't know because I've always been naturally just born to just. Run. I first born, I dunno. I'm first born. He's first born. There seems to be a lot of natural ability I'm that are like, I'm judged. Oh, I was gonna say that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's another conversation. No, but I think there's not a lot because again, we've never had, like there's this, there's always pressures. You're now taking over. There's the financial, you're looking after 500. Employees and their families. I feel a weight of that responsibility every day when I walk into work. Did your dad give you a speech? Was there a you not what you just said right now? No. Did you have that? No. Have you done that with addicts? No, I did not give out. It's not style that is their stuff. Yeah. Just that. Did you wish you were told that how something you gonna tell addicts? Listen, I mean, it is what it is. Here we are, where we are today. I guess we've been given a great opportunity from my father to be able to take this company and really scale it and I'm very proud of what we've been able to do from what he started. Again. Fifth generations we go back to my grandfather and great-grandfather. He was a very small mom of all operation, but my father, he did the best he could. He worked very hard at it and he gave us freedom with a long rope to figure it out. So, okay, I don't really look at that. Your lovely wife sitting in the crowd. Renee, I would ask her if she was sitting up yet. And I know she's in the business. How do you guys separate the boardroom table versus the dinner table? Like is is home? Just what volume did we buy today and what are the margins like if somebody has. Separation. There is no separation of church and state. There is definitely no separation. No, we do not separate. And you know what? It's fine. There are people, I do know, lots of big family businesses and they have rules around the table when they come in that the matriarch always says, we are not discussing businesses at the table. That is not what happens at our home. They don't have enough hours in the day to afford that. Right. But this is your time to, it's because it's, it's a quiet time of day. So can I tell you something to do though? It's not a bad thing that we're talking about. In our opinion, we find that we're away from the distraction of the day-to-day business and the the multiple things that are going on every day. And what I find is that we can actually think a little more clearly by sitting at home around the dinner table to discuss issues. We can't talk about because every time being interrupted, I, I just find it's a chance for us to focus a little bit more. And then also, we're not always all together in the business every day in the same room, right? So now we're bringing, it's almost like a board. We're bringing everybody into the same room now, and we're, we're working with each other. So if I have a problem or something's happening, Renee or Alex or, or my father, anybody has problems, we kind of present it to discuss and figure out how are we gonna work together to overcome that issue. Successes. It's not always issues. It's also the successes. Hey, this happened today. It's unreal. We, you know, it's, for me, it's a passion for my dad. It's a passion. So it's not like it's something that we don't like to talk about. Right? For the most part, it's always, you know, good, good problems to have or things that we can discuss and peace and figure. I mean, we, we experiences at home. Lisa's laughing in the background there. Lisa grew up in the same environment. Entrepreneurial family. Yeah. And they used to always say they, um, they dinner tables, the ball table. Um, what's interesting is that not only have you guys decided to not separate it, you actually find it strategically positive. Yeah. Have feedback. Yeah. Meet around the table and, and it's actually beneficial. Yeah. We find the benefits of it. Exactly. And you know what? It's not something that bothers us because some people do have issues, but it just doesn't end. There's no, it just always, we're always on when it comes to business, but it's what we like. Yeah. It's actually what we like. It's, it's what you enjoy. We, it's exact same. I, I've worked with these seven years and like as a family business, I much prefer it to having to pick up a phone and phone like my business partner and try and like a, a quick meeting to tell in my day. Correct. So much more beneficial. I absolutely love family run businesses, um, and I think they have the ability to be more successful than co-founders or partners that don't necessarily spend 20 more hours a day talking about it and being their passion. Alex. Generally, what is your generation bringing to this industry that you feel, and not in a bad way, but you feel isn't necessarily here yet, or is something that you can feel is going to come through, um, over the next decade or so? Well, I, I think nothing I'll tell you is, is what you haven't heard, I think already, but it's, you know, competency with technology, more, more comfortable with, with emerging technology and artificial intelligence and, um. Just fresh ideas to the industry. I don't think there's anything that you've not heard that I tell you about that it's really just has to do around technology and fresh ideas, I think. Would you agree? Well, I agree with that, but I'm gonna tell you something. It's funny because you're talking about the older generation. My father with pen and paper, carbon, you know, writing down numbers in the calculator and having to. 700 minus 200 and multiply price 500. Now, can you minus 500? Can you imagine? Imagine though I'm starting to now introduce technology to the company and computers, and he was going crazy about that. It's slowing things down. He didn't understand why it was taking so long at the scale to input the stuff, and he just. You just shaking at the technology, but I don't even know how, looking back, I don't even know how we did this with the pen and without paper. Yeah. I really don't. So I totally agree. Just that's how we, that's how they rolled back then. But, uh, well, you say back then, I still go into many businesses and they're still rolling in a very similar way to what you speak. Yeah. You just, maybe there's spin and paper, but there's, there's, I think the next generation will be more open. Considering technology, I think that's what will drive us forward much quicker. When I say drive us forward, I'm not just talking about like, well, let's just use technology for the sake of it, but efficiencies, right? Cost savings, profitability, maximizing sales, you know, everything that's there in technology that's gonna come through is gonna come through quicker because the next generation are actually looking for it. Wearing something. Yes. Your dad sees it as a hindrance. Yeah. You are willing to accept it, not go out, blueprint and Alex Generation is actually looking to source it. Certainly. And that's the progression, especially the development of AI technology. It's a tool. It's a tool that you have to have now to run a business. Any business, doesn't matter our industry, any industry, but I think that's another thing where father and son are aligned because. Embrace a lot of the new technology. Like I embrace a lot of the new technology. I wanna see new stuff. We, you and I talk about stuff all the time, and so there isn't as much of a generation gap in terms of that discussion and topic that there would be with other things. One thing that we really aligned with this, the technology side at all, if anybody was listening now and they're thinking, you know, whether their kid is 15, 12, like as it was, um, or even 20 coming outta college, if they're thinking. I think my son or my daughter should be joining this industry, should be joining either the industry or the company that I'm in. What would you wanna tell them right now? And this is for both of you? Yeah. Um, what would you want them to hear? Whether it's pitfalls, like this is how you should do it or work for you, things like that. Hopefully the whole conversation gives them some context, but is there anything in particular they should know? Yeah. I would say there's a plant or there's an office that I'm in to do the most basic task. See if they enjoy that. If it seems like it's satisfying for them and something they enjoy doing, then they'll find other things that they enjoy doing. And I think that's the best way is really start from the ground up, get your feet wet, and with something that you latch onto and enjoy then, and they'll do it naturally. And if not, then no right away. But you don't wanna, you don't wanna just throw'em into it. I think. Without that experience. No, but I'm gonna give you an example of what we always did, and this is really, I think was a really a catalyst you wanted to be in the industry. And really high awakening is that sometimes we protect and shield our kids from things and we're, we're just like, not now. You don't need to go do your sports, whatever. But I always, whenever I went on a road trip or if I was gonna visit a plant or something interesting too, they always came with me. Whether it was our own operations. Or, or a mill or somewhere else that we were gonna see. And I made sure that they always came with me. So they're like, you know, little 10 and 11 year olds getting outta the car, you know, putting on the safety vest and stuff like that. And I think that went a long way too for, you know, listen, you, you go to school, you're in a situation where it's a finite, you're reading and learning. This is the real world. And I've always been somebody that gravitate to real world. That's where I was most successful, even in school when everyone talked to us. So it was real world. I wanted to pass that on to them so they could experience real things. This is the real world. This isn't school, this is what business is. And that really made a big difference for them growing up. Instead of just giving me the opposite, is there anything they shouldn't do? Don't say they shouldn't jump straight in, you know, don't have this conversation. Don't make them do that. Whatever it might be, uh, you know, I mean, don't. I don't agree with people. Like there's some people that say as a school of thought is that their children should go work in something else. Before they come into the business. Yeah. Like I think there's a, there's a pro to that and there's a con to that. The opportunity presents itself like it did for me to go straight into it. Yeah. And that was kind of, and it worked well. There's other people that, you know, they're still finding themselves. My other son is doing a, like something totally different. He's going on a different path and that's what he enjoys. We're gonna foster that. But I mean, I practiced law for a couple of years, again, doing something different than the industry. It was okay for me, but it, I feel that for you. Into the business not needing to go into somebody else's or doing something else before it. It's working very well and we're very successful with our plan and path that we had for Alex. Here's a terrible question for you, but I wanna ask it anyway. Great. Let's pretend you're not Jonathan and Annex,'cause you're gonna tell me this is impossible. I, in five years time, if Alex says, I actually don't want to be in scrap metal, what would you do gentlemen? Of course I'd be disappointed because we've planned for this succession and transfer and keeping the family business under the family name and banner. Um, but what am I gonna do? Miss his choice. This path not gonna happen. He has a crazy thing. Do people that bring in the next succession, the next generation, have to also think if that guy leaves, I need to have people trade underneath the big case. Well, that is need underneath hundred percent. They'll have to have a plan. You need to have last resort plan, good structure to your company, I feel. Um, but as for me, you know, my passion is this business and this industry. So, okay, then I'm gonna finish with you, Alex, last question. Alright, sorry John. We've done a podcast before, so let's get Alex time 20 years time from now. What does your company look like? What's your role in it? I don't mean CEO, I mean, what is your actual day to day look like, but just gimme some context of where you guys will be. Well, I hope to really further refine ourselves and refine our processes in the way we present ourself even more. Right? I'm a perfectionist and I think you can never be absolutely perfect just by the nature of the industry and the commodities we deal with. Equipment that we use and things break and things go wrong, but I want to be as, as flawless as possible. Um, so I'll be really satisfied in 20 years if that's doing itself automatically. And my focus is just on how can I grow this company, uh, without being as much focused on how can I make ourselves great operator just as one man show, okay? Because this, that answer isn't measurable for me in 20 years time when I'm still doing podcasts as an old man. I'm gonna say, remember that Thomas, and you said you were gonna have an X as you're coming. How many yards are you gonna have? What sort of volume? How many employees? How big are you guys gonna be? I, uh, I gotta make you do it. I can call. Can we take the fifth? Fifth come. I, uh, I certainly would like to grow our company. That is my number one goal. I don't want to, I don't wanna say, uh, continue, continue, continue. Scale. Continue. Continue, continue. Uh, obviously. The number, let's make a hundred. Sure. Alright, down John Ross. 20 years, a hundred yards. Top three in Canada at the time. Alex and John, will we still be sitting at the same thing reviewing it 20 years from you? 20 years we'll be, we'll be watching, he'll be paying all the bills. And John and Annex, thank you so much for joining us on. Thanks guys. That's it for this episode of Born Scrappy. If you have any questions, stories, or topics you want us to dig into, send them my way. Until then, keep it scrappy.