Life On Purpose Over 40 Podcast

You’re Not Crazy—You’re Being Gaslit, and Here’s How to See It

• Caroline Balinska + Jennifer O'niell • Season 2 • Episode 8

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They charm you, confuse you, and then convince everyone you’re the problem.
In this gripping episode of Life on Purpose Over 40, Caroline Balinska sits down with Jennifer O’Neill, expert in narcissistic personality patterns, to reveal how narcissists manipulate, gaslight, and destroy from behind the mask of “good intentions.”

This isn’t a buzzword conversation — it’s a deep dive into the real psychology behind narcissism, how it shows up in relationships, workplaces, and families, and why systems often fail to see the abuse that’s hiding in plain sight.

You’ll learn:

  • How narcissists gain power through charm, confusion, and fear
  • The difference between emotional immaturity and true narcissism
  • The DARVO cycle: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender
  • Why empaths and high achievers are their favorite targets
  • What “radical acceptance” really means for survivors
  • How to start breaking free — mentally, emotionally, and spiritually

🎧 Tune in and discover the patterns that keep you stuck — and the mindset shift that will set you free.


www.resilientlifetherapy.com

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Jennifer O'Niell:

What becomes important is to understand the core of what narcissism is. So narcissism is not just bad behavior. One of the mistakes that people make is they think, oh, this person is just behaving badly. I think it's never too late when you've had a narcissist in your life to get normalized and validated what happened to you. I would say what becomes important if you think you are with a narcissist is to get as much education as you can, to have people around you who understand narcissism. If you feel that therapy is helpful, get a therapist who understands narcissism. If you are going through a breakup, get an attorney who understands narcissism.

Caroline Balinska:

Welcome to the Life on Purpose Over 40 podcast, where empowerment, elegance, and health take center stage. I'll be your guide on this thrilling journey to outshine your past self. This is a podcast all about transformation. We're plunging headfirst into exactly what health, wellness, style, relationships, and career look like as a woman over 40. You'll be hearing from all the most sought-after global trailblazers and experts. This isn't just about learning, it's about embracing your inner, fierce, fabulous self. Let's get started. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm very excited to have Jennifer O'Neill with us today. I came across Jennifer through a little bit of my own research, looking around at different accounts when it comes to narcissism. It's a very hot topic right now. So Jennifer is an expert. She's been doing this for over 20 years, and we have got her on the call today to give us some advice about narcissists. So, Jennifer, welcome and thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so, so happy to be here. Uh, I came across your account a little too late for me, but um I'm very, very happy I did come across your account because I think that you're definitely making a difference to explaining what narcissism is and the dangers of narcissism and also how women, especially women, can get ourselves out of situations that we really should not be in. So let's start at the beginning. Where did you start from? What got you into this whole area? Because it's it's a very ugly, unpleasant area to be working in.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yes, it absolutely is. And I want to say it's never too late. Because I think it's never too late when you've had a narcissist in your life to get normalized and validated what happened to you. So I just want to say for everybody out there, part of what is so important about this is understanding what is, has happened to you and helping you make sense of that. So, so I've been a therapist for almost 30 years, maybe 30 years by now, long time. So, over the years, I started to see more and more clients. I got some training on narcissism through some conferences. And then I just I started at seeing noticing more and more with clients really consistent experiences. And so I just started going on a deep dive and really started understanding that how crazy it makes people feel, and that once they had the information to help them understand what it is, how incredibly helpful that is to people. So this just evolved um into what I'm doing now. Initially, when I started my YouTube channel, I was just like, I'm just gonna throw videos up there. And I, and then I put a few on narcissism and they just exploded. And I thought, oh, people really need this information. So it's just kind of evolved. And as I've put content out there, of course, I've gotten more clients who are dealing with the narcissistic dynamics. So, in a nutshell, that's how it all about all evolved.

Caroline Balinska:

So there's a huge problem. I've got a million questions for you, but there is a huge problem because we are told you cannot self-diagnose someone, you cannot diagnose someone, narcissists shouldn't be diagnosed. The problem is, though, that narcissists are very good at getting out of a diagnosis, so it's very hard to diagnose a narcissist. And then there's this whole movement of all the women that break up with their partners think that they were dating a narcissist. I've got friends like that as well. Um, through my own personal journey, I can tell them that, hey, your man was not a narcissist, but they like to think that to uh externalize the blame of the relationship breaking down. There's the whole movement around the fact that every relationship takes two people to ruin it. But when you're with the narcissist, that's just not true. Um, the narcissist is the one that's doing all the damage. Where are we when it comes to understanding if we're really with a narcissist or if we're just with someone who I guess doesn't fit us, doesn't suit us.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Gosh, yes, that is such a great question and multi-layered. So, yeah, the the question of diagnosis is a tricky one. And obviously, if I am talking to somebody, I am not diagnosing their partner as narcissistic. I have not met this person, that would not be appropriate. I'm not doing that. And we do have to be careful with diagnoses. Um, narcissism, you know, it is a personality disorder. So there is a diagnosis. And there, I and I realize there's all kinds of debate about this and what is narcissism on and on. However, I think it is really crucial that we do use the term and whatever you want to call it, um, because it is very specific dynamics. And to your point, narcissism is a very specific thing. And there are a lot of things that can look narcissistic, people can act in narcissistic ways without being narcissistic. So if I am talking to somebody, I want them to get educated on what narcissism is. And I have people who come to me who have already done research, and but when we start talking, and I start saying this and this and this, they're like, oh, I didn't realize that was narcissism. So look, yes, a lot of everybody's narcissistic now. Um, so it does muddy the water, and it is problematic for people who are in a relationship with an actual narcissist because it is um minimizing to what they're experiencing, it's confusing. So I think what becomes important is getting information. I repeat it over and over and over and over and over. You need information. And sometimes I do have people who think their partner is narcissistic. And when we start talking, it's like, oh yeah, no, that's not narcissism. It's an easy category to throw somebody in. It's an easy thing to say, there's all narcissistic, and I agree with you. It then becomes like I can just blame them. Um, so I would say what becomes important if you think you are with a narcissist is to get as much education as you can, to have people around you who understand narcissism. If you feel that therapy is helpful, get a therapist who understands narcissism. If you are going to a breakup, get an attorney who understands narcissism. You need a team because you need to make sense of what's actually going on. I hope that answers the question. It does, but it opens up a whole lot of other questions for me.

Caroline Balinska:

So the thing is, is that you said people need to understand what the difference is. So, how could you explain the difference? What would be narcissistic and what wouldn't be narcissistic? Because I think one thing that I keep on, I've really come to understand is that we all have narcissistic traits in some way. And I think that's the the first thing that we need to understand is that just throwing around that term doesn't help a situation. Right. Because that person might not be narcissistic at all. Not in the actual, they're not a narcissist, they have narcissistic traits because we all do in some way. I have a friend of mine, well, she's not really a friend, um, but she's in our group, and I swear she's the narcissist in her relationship. She keeps calling her husband the narcissist, but knowing what she does, and I've seen her in person and what I've experienced, I can honestly say, and I've subtly told her a few times that there's a few things that I can see her doing wrong in the relationship. She is a narcissist and it comes from her childhood. There's trauma there and all of that. But she keeps on claiming it's her husband that's the problem. But I actually think that he's not the problem in the relationship. But it's not my place to jump in, so whatever. But I think that that's where we get this big problem because then she is a type of person throwing around, hey, I'm with a narcissist, and she's not. And then you've got other women that are really with the narcissist. And it does muddy the water. So what do we need to know? What's the difference?

Jennifer O'Niell:

Um, so number one, I think anytime our friends are struggling, right? We can support them however we want to support them, and they're having an emotional experience, and we can talk about the emotional experience. And if we think the person's not narcissistic, we can still talk about the ways they're hurt, they're afraid, all of the things. So I think what becomes important is to understand the core of what narcissism is. So narcissism is not just bad behavior. One of the mistakes that people make is they think, oh, this person is just behaving badly. No, narcissism is very specific. And the core of it, the way I talk about it, is it really has to do with the lack of empathy and the lack of ability to have reciprocity in relationship. And that is core. Um, I don't even know if I would say we all have narcissistic traits. I would say we can all behave in narcissistic ways. And I can give a litany of things, you know, anytime that somebody's in active addiction, they are acting very narcissistically often. Um, you know, they will steal from you, they will lie to you, they will do all kinds of things, right? It's it's that it's all about me. I think people mistake selfishness with narcissism. Um, narcissism is at its core, it's about an inability to have reciprocity. So they might, they they often know what you're feeling. It just doesn't matter to them. There's not the emotional resonance. In my book, I have a quote that one of my clients actually said and gave me permission to use it. And he said, it's the um narcissists do not carry the burden of emotional dialogue. And I love that because that has to do with they're not able to connect emotionally like you and I are. And so somebody may be having bad behavior and they may be acting in narcissistic ways, but at the core, if they're able to show up with empathy, if they're able to show up with reciprocity, if they're able to show up with emotional connection, they're not narcissistic. They may be a lot of other things, but they're not narcissistic. Um, so from that conversation, from that core, we can talk about then, though, all of the ways that that manifests. And I find that narcissists are remarkably predictable the way, the ways that they behave. It's like crazy. People are like, how did you know that? I'm like, well, because that's what they do. So um, yeah, so I would say that's the core difference. And we always want to look at that core piece. And it can still be confusing, right? And if somebody has had a lot of trauma, if they are in a lot of fear, if they are really reacting in a lot of defensive ways, again, that can look very narcissistic, but isn't necessarily narcissistic.

Caroline Balinska:

Okay, so question about that. Like you just said, you use the word confusing. It is very confusing because at the start of the relationship with a narcissist, they show what we think is empathy. But you're saying that they don't have it.

Jennifer O'Niell:

So how does that work? So here's an interesting thing, and and I have no scientific data on this, this is purely anecdotal. So take that for what it's worth. Um, however, I have noticed a trend, and I don't think this is true every single time, but when somebody has been in a romantic relationship with a narcissist, they will often tell me that on the first date, they realized something was really off. There was something that felt weird, but because we're so nice and we want to give somebody a chance and all a million lovely things about us, they ignored that. And so I believe that at a limbic system level, our it's not connecting. There's some, we know there's something weird, we know there's something off. And so it's like an early warning sign. So, what I think is that narcissists are really good at making people feel good when they want to. And we can mistake that for empathy. We can mistake that for they've listened to us when really what they've done is they've love-bombed us. They've told us we're the most wonderful person. And I just can't believe like people treated you like that. You're so wonderful. How could anybody treat you like that? By the way, we're gonna fly off to Paris for lunch. I actually had somebody tell me one time, they actually truly flew me off to Paris for lunch. So I think that they confuse. Often, if you talk to people, they knew there was something that was like this low-level noise, but with all the noise up here that the narcissist creates, they dismissed that, they ignored it. And what I really find to be true is that narcissists can keep the mask on for about six to nine months. Um, and then once they really have you sucked in, it comes off. It's one of the reasons they like fast courtships. They want to get you sucked in. And then the real person comes out. So that's super confusing for people. And people spend a lot of time and energy what I call chasing the ghost. They're trying to get that first person back because they think that's the actual person. So I think narcissists are really good at throwing up a lot of noise. They know how to make you feel good. And by the way, when you start to relieve the relationship with them, you know what they do. They show up with that great person again. And they're gonna make all the changes and they're gonna do all the things. And of course, we believe them. And as soon as they get you sucked back in, the mask comes off again. So I don't know if I answer that question exactly, other than I think people can confuse feeling really good with that person really sees and cares about me. I don't know if that rings true for people or not, but that's my sense of things.

Caroline Balinska:

I think that is exactly right. And I think, like you said, and I've heard it from a lot of people, there's only one way that they work. Yeah, it's it's the same, yeah, it's the same pattern for all of them. So, like you said, that six to nine months within that time frame, then everything changes. And what about um if someone's listening and they're not sure if they they think that they're going crazy? I think that's the that's the biggest part of that part for someone in a relationship, whether it's a female or a male, you're at that point where you think you're going crazy because you start to doubt, am I doing something wrong? Can I make changes? Because all the therapists will say what takes two. What happens when you go into relationship therapy and you might go through five different therapists? Might know someone. Well, if you're going through five different therapists, you should start to go, why are we going through so many things? But that's right. But then here's the thing the therapist is saying you both need to communicate better. And the therapist is telling you, you need to communicate better. And what happens when the therapist says, he's gaslighting you, and then turns around a week later and says, Oh, you need to do better in the relationship. And it's like, hang on a second, which way is it? And you start, your head starts to spin. And it's like, did you tell me he's gaslighting me? And now you're telling me I have to do better. And there's so many therapists I've learned that just are not trained in this area at all. And then you just want the money.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yes, and and listen, and and I will I realize I'm biased here. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know therapists. I there are some out there. I'm not saying there's not, but but most therapists want to do a good job, right? We're in the field because we want to help people. Um, but yes, unfortunately, two pieces on that is that number one, far too many therapists don't actually understand what narcissism is. And actually, had, you know, a couple of people come to me because they were having an experience with a narcissist that that therapist didn't get. And so they wanted to find somebody who understood it. So, so yes, that absolutely is problematic. It's also one of the reasons I really want to put out content to help people understand what this is. And all my extra time, I keep thinking I need to do a training for therapists, but because I have so much extra time. Um, there is the other piece there, and my brain just lost its train of thought. Um going to therapy. Oh, thank you. So yes, thank you. Um, the other piece there is that that narcissists are extremely good at at fooling people. And so you could even have a savvy therapist who the narcissist is they're very, very good at what they do. They're very good at what they do. And so I think we always want to approach relationship dynamics. I think what we never want to let narcissists steal from us is that we want to believe good in people, right? And and we always want to approach a relationship trying to be as healthy as we can. And saying, yeah, I may have a part here. Let me look at my part, let me see if I can change this. However, when you're doing that and you're feeling really crazy, I think it's time to look at what's happening in this dynamic. And narcissists are really good at convincing you it's your fault and you're crazy and you don't know what you're talking about, and on and on. If a therapist does understand narcissism, I've also had many clients who have told me that they did try couples therapy, and the therapist looked at him and said, you know, look, he's a narcissist. She's a narcissist. Um, so you know, this isn't gonna work. Um but yeah, so it's it's two pieces, right? That that that a lot, too many therapists don't understand narcissism, and also narcissists are very good at fooling people. I think that one of the core pieces I want for people to understand is to trust themselves. If you are having an emotional experience that you keep having, I do want you to look at like, do I have a part here? I'm not saying don't look at your part, but I also want you to trust yourself that something is really off. And if you feel like I'm showing up and I keep getting emotionally annihilated, um, you need to trust that. Because even if the partner isn't narcissistic, you are getting emotionally annihilated. And so whether they're narcissistic or not, this relationship isn't working for you. And you get to go in to whoever, a therapist, a friend, whoever, and say, I have done that and I keep getting emotionally annihilated, and this isn't working for me. This is not okay for me. I always like to say, right, wrong, fair, or not, this doesn't work for me. And so sometimes if something really isn't working for us and we feel like we've given it a try, um, we don't need to justify that this isn't working for me.

Caroline Balinska:

On that note, how does it work when it comes to having children, though? I think, I don't know about men, but I think for women, the biggest problem is that we feel like, not all women, but I think a lot of women feel like I better stick around for the children. And this is a complicated formula.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Um, look, I, Nan, that is a really complex question. Um, I, you know, when I put my videos up, I often will get comments, people will say, just leave, just leave. Um, and and it is not that easy. There are there are a million good reasons why people can't just leave. And I'm not even just talking about with romantic partners. I'm talking about if you have a narcissistic parent, if you have a narcissistic boss. So, so just leaving, um look, if I could, I would send all the narcissists to narcissist island, right? And I would make sure nobody has a narcissist in their life. Because if you have a narcissist in your life, you were, I call it, it's like, it's, it's, it's like radiation, right? It's a slow drip, drip, drip of poison. And so if you are in a relationship with a narcissist, you are getting poisoned. Now, sometimes we need to stay for a million good reasons, and that's okay. You just have to understand the game you're playing, and you better get really versed in the game you're playing. So people may decide, because whatever with their kids, their kids are too young, or they don't want to be without the kids, are the million things that they don't want to leave. And so then we have to talk about how do you stay in a way where you mitigate the poison as much as possible. And, you know, the sad truth is I always say with a narcissist, there is no healthy path, there is a path of least destruction, and there is no feel-good path because none of this is good, none of it is optimal. Because if you leave, then that ex is going to have parenting time with those children. Yeah. If you stay, you are staying in a really toxic situation. So I would say for anybody with kids who is thinking about leaving, you need to get support. You need your team. You need to be talking with a therapist or somebody who really gets narcissism and is insightful and is not judgmental and doesn't have an agenda for you to help you make sense of what your plan is and how to do that. So I'm not encouraging people to stay or leave. I want to be really clear. I'm not saying, oh, you need to stay. I'm not saying, oh, you need to leave. I'm just saying that's a super complicated question that only can be answered for each individual person, talking that through with somebody who understands narcissism and understanding what their path is and how long they're going to do that. Yeah, really complicated, really painful, deeply painful.

Caroline Balinska:

I know as someone in our family that um she decided to stay and um she just plays sick all the time and she's she just walks away and plays sick, and oh, I've got to lie down, I've got a headache, and goes and sits in my room. And and in one way, it's really good because she gets her husband because she wants to show that she has a husband. She already had one divorce, so she doesn't want to be divorced again. Uh, she's older, so for her, it's you know, that generation. But um, at the same time, and when she's not with him, she's off with her friends, she's off doing all these things, she's never sick when she's not with him. So it's it's very clear what's going on. But um, it's still terrible, yeah. She's living in this world. It's not like that's a great, it's like you said, it's whether it's terrible, whether you go, it's terrible.

Jennifer O'Niell:

It's poison. And one of the things I really try to help people sort of suss through is, you know, you're gonna pay, there's always a price to pay, right? The price of entry. And so I don't have an agenda for what price people decide to pay. I just want them to be really clear and honest with themselves about the prices they're paying and why they're willing to pay that price. And sometimes the price is worth it, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes I think what often happens is initially people start in a place of I don't want to leave for all the million good reasons. And as we work and we really move into radical acceptance about what the relationship is, because radical acceptance is a core piece of what you need to have on board with a narcissist. Um, they say, oh, if this is really what it is and this is all it's ever gonna be, like I really don't want this. And so then we start talking about how to move to a different way of being. But um people, yeah, it's about what are the and and I will ask people, you know, why are you willing to pay that price? And we can talk about radical acceptance, but quickly I want to say radical acceptance does not mean you accept bad behavior. People get very confused about what radical acceptance is. Radical acceptance is when you are no longer trying to get something to be something that's never gonna be. So radical acceptance is I now understand and accept that this is who this person is gonna be, this is how they're gonna act, and nothing is gonna change that. So then I get to decide what relationship I have with that.

Caroline Balinska:

It's an overwhelming place to be. I think that that's especially I think if there's children involved. I think that, you know, when you're just two people and you're single, but it doesn't just come like you said, it's not just relationships. It might be a boss, you can't leave a job, it might be a parent. I've seen it in that situation too. My father was also a narcissist. So, you know, I see with this four or five of us kids, so you know, only one of them still speaks to him, and yeah, no one else does. And I can see it from that that made it that was very easy for me to walk away from, but I can understand some people can't walk away from their parent that easily.

Jennifer O'Niell:

So well, especially with an elderly narcissistic parent who's in their 80s or 90s. Yeah. So anytime somebody has this idea of it's just so clear what you should do, man, it's super complicated. And, you know, I have to really help people walk through the morass and figure out what they're gonna do about it and how to do that and how to navigate that. It's so complicated. It is not an easy equation. And the dynamics are just crazy.

Caroline Balinska:

So we can understand better what these narcissists are actually doing to us. Do you want to just explain the different, I guess, um, strategies that they use and what we need to understand about those strategies and how we can actually counteract them and protect ourselves? Yes.

Jennifer O'Niell:

So this is so crucial. Um, I talk about this in depth in my book because it this is one of the things when all I talk about people under need to understand the narcissistic dynamics. This is everything. Because the strategies that they use to manipulate and control are really crazy. And for people who have empathy and can do reciprocity, it feels nuts. And this is where people get in trouble because one of the mistakes they make is they they think they project. I uh I always say never project empathy onto a narcissist. So what what we tend to do is we project onto the narcissist how we would feel or how we would think or how we would act. Huge mistake. Because the strategies that they use to manipulate and control feel crazy and feel poisonous. And so we get confused thinking, well, surely they're not doing that. Yes, they are doing that. All right, so let me go over some of them. One of the big ones is gaslighting. And gaslighting is when somebody makes you doubt your own reality and they are really good at it. You can literally have a videotape of them doing the thing, and they will look, yes, they will look at you straight in the eye and go, like, that's not what I'm doing. And I have had so many people say, I literally did. I had a videotape and they looked at me and they said, That's not what I'm doing. It's insane, but they say it with such conviction. They look you straight in the eye, they lie, like people don't do that. So they confuse our brains because we're looking for the tell that somebody's lying. Like they scramble our limbic system, they scramble the social cues, they scramble all of that. So it makes us feel super crazy. They do something that I call the emotional death penalty. So the emotional death penalty is when they ghost you, they act like you are not alive. And when people have a narcissist, so if you had a narcissistic dad, parents, narcissistic parents really do this to kids. Spouses will also do it. Um, but when you were a kid, it is deeply disturbing because they will ignore you. They will act like you are not alive, they will walk by you like you're a ghost. This is so incredibly anxiety provoking. And people will do anything to make that stop. So the emotional death penalty is very effective because it creates so much anxiety for people. They just like our anxiety is going to. Just need to get it better, and we just need to get it better, and we just need to get it better. Um, another one that I call Play-Doh reality. So, Play-Doh reality is when they make reality into whatever they want it to be, right? And that can change in five minutes. So, in the course of one conversation, this is reality, and then you know, they decide this is reality. So, I call that play-doh reality because they just make reality, they reshape it and they reshape it and they reshape it. And again, they're saying it so convincingly that you start, you know, you can go like, I thought the sky was blue, but maybe it is green. Like they really get you doubting your reality. It's nuts. Um, they love to use threats and intimidation. And I tell people, look, they're gonna go from strategy to strategy to strategy. And you can see them going through the different things. Like once you understand what they are, you understand the hooks, like you can start identifying them, yeah, which is what is so crucial about understanding this. Um, they also use the crazy projection where they will literally say, you are doing what they are doing. Like that's nuts. And and people will get into arguing with them. And yeah, um, they will use guilting, they are world-class guilters. And again, if we're empathic, we feel bad, we've upset somebody, we think we've done something wrong. The guilting is really effective. They use what I call the flying monkeys. They now they will especially do this if you are trying to leave them, if you are setting limits or boundaries. So the flying monkeys is when they go to everybody, family, friends, and they tell them their sob story and they get that person to call you, and then they guilt you, and and especially like when there's a narcissistic, an elderly narcissistic parent. Oh my gosh, does this happen? I can talk forever about that. They will have family members call. Did you know your poor mother, your poor dad is blah, blah, blah. It's yes, I know. So, and and then they will also use the love bombing. So the love bombing is super confusing. And again, when these other strategies don't work, they go to love bombing. And love bombing is when they turn it on thick and they're telling you how wonderful they are and they're showing up in all the ways that you want them to. And I'm gonna change. The love bombing especially comes into play when you are getting ready to exit the relationship. And I'm telling you, it's amazing to see. I'm and I will predict they're gonna do this, and then they're gonna do this, and then they're gonna love bomb you. And sure enough, they just go through it's like you can just see it happen. And then they'll flip into rage again. The rage is terrifying. They really do also will use rage because the rage is terrifying, and it will absolutely get people to comply because again, we just want it to stop. So that's a quick sort of um in a nutshell, but but yeah, I feel super passionate about people understanding the ways that they manipulate people.

Caroline Balinska:

Okay, so yes, everything you just said is it's crazy because the fact that you say that it's the same in all narcissists, they all have the same playbook. Pretty much. It's not like it's not like one is different from the other. Uh pretty much, it's just the way they are, and it's crazy. It's like they all went to a special school to learn how to do this. It's like, how do you all do exactly the same thing? Like that's that's a crazy time.

Jennifer O'Niell:

It's so insane how consistent they are. And listen, there are brain anomalies, and you know, they have found brain anomalies in narcissists, so so there is some stuff. Um, it runs in families, I think, too. And again, I don't have a lot of scientific data. Um, I'm I for the for the brain stuff I do, but but yeah, that that runs in families, but it's certainly what I have seen anecdotally and and in all the stuff I've looked at is tends to be true.

Caroline Balinska:

But yeah, it's crazy how consistent they are. That's actually really interesting because I think about um, I've got a couple of narcissists in my life. Um, my father, like I said, was a narcissist is a narcissist as well. And his mother was also definitely a narcissist. So I always thought it comes from childhood trauma, but it's triggered. Yeah. Is it well?

Jennifer O'Niell:

So look, I there's a lot of different ideas out there of what is narcissism, what causes narcissism. And, you know, certainly there are bigger experts than me out there. I only know what I know to be true, what I have seen over and over and over and over and over. And I just want to say quickly as an aside, what we also know, there's been a lot of research on sociopaths. Now, sociopathy is different from narcissism, but what we also know for a fact is that there are definite brain anomalies in sociopaths, and that sociopaths that runs in families. So um, so there's an interesting sort of parallel here. Um here's what I think. Um I think that narcissism is something that is a brain anomaly. Can childhood trauma, can certain dynamics cause people to act narcissistically? Yes. My opinion, my opinion only, take it for what it's worth, is that narcissism is a brain anomaly, that it is fundamentally different in the way that that brain works, um, it is really something that you see from early on. Um, it is a way of being in relationships that is fundamentally different. And and look, people react to trauma in all kinds of ways. So there's no linear formula for if you've had trauma, how you develop with that. So we can certainly make an argument that some people develop narcissism. And there are plenty of professionals out there who would say that that's the case. Um, all I can say is from my experience, from everything I've looked at and know, from the all the people I've been exposed to that have a narcissist in their life. It feels like there is a fundamental thing that's broken in them. Right. And and that piece about the lack of resonance, there is something so weird about that. I talk about in my book, one of the things that I experience if I'm sitting with a narcissist is I cannot feel them. So I so what I mean by that, as a therapist, I am very intuitive about being able to feel people and and the pinging back and forth, the mirror neurons. Um, my experience with narcissists is I can't get a beat on them. I can't feel them. It's this really weird experience. And I've had so many people say, like, yes, like I couldn't, you you can't sync up with them emotionally.

Caroline Balinska:

So I used to say, um, you've just got this bad energy. Yes. And I'd say, there's no such thing. You're being all crazy. And I'm like, I don't mean it from the woo-woo side. I mean that there's just something that you've just got this bad energy. And it's just, I feel it around me that every time we get into this like dynamic, I just feel it. It's just this feeling in the room. It just takes over everything.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yeah, like you can't, you can't get a handle on them. You can't get your hands around them, you can't sync up with them. It feels very, very off. And that's when I talk about, I believe that at a limbic system, I so mirror neurons, right? Those are the part of our brain that help us with empathy and connect. But I believe that there's a that there, and again, no scientific basis for this, but just my sense of thing, that there's something very off with the mirror neurons, that the mirror neurons aren't pinging off of each other. And that's part of, and there's also this lumbic system response, like this person feels off, this person feels dangerous. So I think all of that's happening at the systemic level that makes it feel very weird and off. I would love somebody to hook all this up to whatever and and figure out what's actually going on there. But that's my sense of things.

Caroline Balinska:

I think that's the problem, though, is because they can't be diagnosed without doing testing on them. And they can they can avoid the questions on the test. They can manipulate testing, is from what I understand. They can manipulate the answers on the test. So they can't come up as they can avoid the actual answers to not look like a narcissist because they're very good at hiding from certain people.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Often psychological testing will pick up on if somebody is being defensive or elusive, but sure. I mean, I think um, you know, and and I mean, narcissists don't tend to go for therapy or testing unless they have to, or unless they're being left, they're being abandoned. Um, and then they'll show up. But but they're not really there to really get better. Now, look, I there were people, there were plenty of therapists who work with narcissists and will absolutely shoot me out of the water on that. And and they will say, hey, I work with narcissists, people on the spectrum. And that may be the case that some people have some like on the spectrum. I think if somebody is at this end of that narcissistic spectrum, I don't I don't think they're gonna be getting help and changing because I they don't want to.

Caroline Balinska:

They don't want to, they don't believe that they need to.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yeah.

Caroline Balinska:

And so do you work with couples? I don't. I don't do couples work. No. So if someone feels like something is not right, what do you think the first steps are? So I think the first thing, from what I understand, narcissists are really good at picking the person who has high empathy. That tends to be what I hear, that they choose that person that has really high empathy, and then they do what they do to that person. And that person, because they have the high empathy, like you were saying, they're they're trying to use their normal empathy to feel sorry for this person to help them, but at the same time, they think that they're going crazy. And they're trying to justify the situation. I think, especially if you've got kids involved, and then you're thinking also, I think that you tend to blame yourself then. Then you start to think, why was that so stupid to get myself into this situation in the first place?

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yes.

Caroline Balinska:

I think that's a big thing. It's like, why did I do this to myself? Why did I put myself in this situation?

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yeah, it's so, so painful for people when they get out of the relationship. Um yeah, that's a whole topic. The grief and loss process involved um is really profound. And that also happens with an elderly narcissistic parent when they die. The grief is often not for the loss of the relationship, it's for um how much of their life got consumed by this. So that's a hard part of the grief and loss process is having to come to terms with boy, how did I get myself into this? Um, and and that's complicated. That is something I think you need to really work through with somebody because there is a whole process there and looking at what the heck happened. You know, what I can say is narcissists are very savvy. They're very, very good at what they do. We show up with our best intentions and our best self, and they and they warp that and they manipulate that. And so, look, you know, I guess I'd rather be an empath, empath than not. I guess I'd rather show up in the world in empathy, and even if that means sometimes that might get taken advantage of. But I really want to arm people, you know, and people who have a lot of empathy, right? It's our greatest strength in our Achilles heel because it is what gets us sucked in and it is what gets us held hostage into bad situations, because we do want to help and we do want to give person the benefit of the doubt, and we do want to believe the best of them, all the things. And so that can keep us really trapped. So I think when we have a lot of empathy, we have to understand how to move in the world in that in a way that we don't get annihilated. But that's very complicated stuff.

Caroline Balinska:

Yeah. So what what what do you suggest that someone does? And then there's that whole layer of um, which is like you said, there's that grief of what happens afterwards, but there's also the other side of that. What um what's the what do they use for um there is a saying that they say when a narcissist is out there just to annihilate annihilate you at the level of to everyone else. So they're trying to do everything to make sure that your life is ruined, they will do everything to ruin your reputation. They will they will stop at nothing to ruin your reputation. Yeah. So there's that level of getting stuck in there, but also that there's this like area where it's like that, what what have I just realized that I'm in and what am I gonna do now? And then how do I get out? Because I think that's every single person I've spoken to who's at that stage or gone through that stage where we've gone through the stage of we are getting our whole reputation ruined by this person. Um, and I wish I knew certain things. What would it be that you would tell someone when they're at that stage of don't let this happen to you? What can you do to protect yourself? Okay.

Jennifer O'Niell:

So get educated. You you truly need to understand the dynamics. And that includes the dynamics of what's going to happen when you abandon them. You know, when you break up with them and you decide, like, I'm done. Um, that's their term, though.

Caroline Balinska:

That is literally their term. You abandon me. Oh, yes. Literally the term that they use. It's like they go to this school to go and learn this because they all use that same. They all believe that they were abandoned. Oh, yes.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Oh, yes. So, and listen, the core one for the narcissist is abandonment. So you can do anything to them except abandon them. They love to fight, they will fight you all day, they love it. Um, but you can't abandon them. And so, yes, the abandonment is the thing, right? So, so you really, really need to understand the dynamics cold. And if you are you are at that place where you have to come to radical acceptance and you have to say, like, oh, I need to really like go through this process of unwinding, you cannot do that alone. You need to get support. Um, so again, if a therapist is helpful, please go to one who understands narcissism, who will help you unwind from all of this, whether it's a romantic relationship, a sibling, a parent, a friend, whatever, a boss, whatever. Um, because this is such a complicated and fraught journey, is enormously hard. You need to trust yourself. You need to trust yourself that you know what is, you know what's true. You're going to need boundaries. I talk about boundaries. I'm sure people are sick of hearing me talk about boundaries, but it's important because the boundaries are everything. If you do not have good boundaries, you will not be able to do this. And boundaries sound easy and they are not, and they were super complicated with a narcissist. So you really need somebody who can help you figure out those boundaries. You're going to need to learn to tolerate distress. And what I always say is if you really want to get clear of a narcissist, you have to be willing to be the villain in their story. Now that comes to your point about they're doing all this stuff out there. So you need help understanding how to navigate that and how you want to respond to all of that. But narcissists make us very afraid. So part of how they do that is they threaten us, and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. Um, I just, I wish I had more time to talk about this because this is so complicated. I guess my point is this this is super complicated. You cannot do this alone. You absolutely need somebody who understands narcissism to help you understand how you're going to navigate this, the grief and loss journey. Um, it's it's fraught. How to deep boundaries, what you need to understand, how you're going to navigate the crazy breakup abandonment dynamics, and how to protect yourself in that. So that's a really in-depth conversation that again, I can give general advice, but I think in everybody's individual situation, they need to have somebody help them. And also, I want to quickly say, because I know we're running short on time, but um, you always need to put your safety first. So whatever I say, whatever anybody else says, um, you take what you want, leave what you want, but but if you you always need to put your safety first, and you always need to trust that you know what you need to do. So if if some advice, if you feel like, oh, that's gonna end in in something dangerous for me, don't do it. Like you need to be safe. Um, so yeah, I wish I could give a more in-depth answer on that. It's such a complicated and in-depth. I would love to get you back on to discuss it. I don't know.

Caroline Balinska:

I would love to come back. This has been wonderful. That would be fantastic because I think it is, it's um a very in-depth conversation. And also, I think because it is such a small amount of people that have to deal with this in the way of we're understanding it more and more, and we know that there's more and more people out there that are hiding this. And you know, I just think back to what my mom went through when I was growing up, and now like it's all just hit me in the last two years of what it actually was. My mom actually passed two years ago, and it was like just when I was coming out of my relationship, that it all just hit me and went, Whoa, oh my god, like what we saw growing up, yeah, that was crazy. And yeah, we like at points, we actually used to think my dad was bipolar. And now looking back, I'm like, no, that was complete narcissistic abuse. Like that was like everything you spoke about today. And I think that it used to be hidden. It's not that it's they say it's happening more these days, but it's not that it wasn't happening before. I think that we just didn't speak about it. And I think you keep on talking about having an older parent, that generation, it was really not spoken about in that way. It was like we would have to just do what that person wanted us to do.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yes, and part of the gosh, we're gonna run out of time. Then this is a whole other topic. But part of the problem with a narcissistic parent is they can look great in the community. Everybody's like, oh, your dad is wonderful. I love your mom. She's a la la la la la. She's the sweetest lady. She's he's the most wonderful, helpful man. And you're having this experience in the home that is super crazy and very different. And so for kids, that's so there's so much shame involved, there's so much confusion involved, there's so much craziness involved. So when there's no information out there and people have no way to make any sense of this, yeah, where do you go with that? And I, you know, when I talk to people and we start talking about this, and you and I can literally see them breathe, like, oh my gosh, everything makes sense now. Like you can, I can literally see the relief for them that it helps explain something that just felt super, super crazy. And nobody understood. And you're having a very different um experience than anybody else. So, what like where do you go with that? Yeah.

Caroline Balinska:

It's really rough. Jennifer, I know you have a client, and if you are dealing with a climate narcissism, we don't want them waiting because they need help. So we're gonna let you go because I know you got to get to that in person. But I would love to have you back on to discuss this further because it's definitely a huge topic. You have a new book out. Please tell us what your book is, and I'll put it into the show notes as well so people can get hold of me.

Jennifer O'Niell:

Yes, absolutely. Yes, I came out with my book sometime this past year. Anyway, it's called Um Surviving the Narcissist, and you can find it on Amazon, Surviving the Narcissist, Jennifer O'Neill. And it is full of in-depth information about what narcissism is, how to navigate those dynamics. I also have exercises in there for people, because it's not just enough to have the information. It really involves people really need to look at the dynamics and what's the relationship I have with all of this, and what do I bring into this relationship that makes it hard for me, that makes this feel really dangerous, that makes this feel really scary. One of the biggest barriers to change is the fear that it feels really dangerous for people. So, so I have a lot of exercises in that book also to help people start to unwind kind of where they're getting sucked in and held hostage. So, yeah, so thank you. Yes, I would love to come back. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Caroline Balinska:

Okay, that would be wonderful. And we will end it here because you definitely have to go. So, Jennifer, thank you for joining us today, and we will definitely have you back on to discuss this further. Thank you for being here, and thanks everyone for watching.