Leadership Film Study #002: Do People Leave You Feeling Bigger... or Smaller?

We study a real feedback clip and ask the question that changes how we coach: do people leave our conversations feeling bigger or smaller? We break down how curiosity builds ownership and confidence, then share a simple framework that helps teammates think for themselves instead of just complying. 
• The “bigger or smaller” test for every coaching conversation 
• Why correcting behavior can still shrink a person 
• Separating observations from assumptions to reduce fear 
• The sun and wind fable as a leadership lens 
• Tell versus discover and how discovery creates internal motivation 
• Ask, Imagine, Invite and example questions to use today 
• Compliance versus ownership and how to avoid creating dependence 
• Using the same coaching approach with kids and family 
• A reflection check on listening, questions, and who does the talking 

So this week, sometime before your next coaching conversation, ask yourself, how can I help this person leave feeling bigger than when they walked in? Then challenge yourself to just ask one more question than you normally would before offering any of your own advice.

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Transcript

Welcome To Leadership Film Study

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Welcome back to another leadership film study. Hey, and if this is your first episode, this is a series where Lindsay and I study real leadership conversations the same way that great coaches study game film. You know, our goal is not to criticize people or pick apart individuals. You know, every one of us, including the two of us, pointing to ourselves here, has leadership blind spots. You know, instead, we're asking, what can we learn from this interaction that helps us actually become better leaders? Because sometimes one coaching conversation can actually reveal a leadership principle that changes every conversation you have after that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, today's episode uh centers around one question that has completely changed the way we think about coaching. You know, when someone leaves a conversation with you, do they leave feeling bigger or smaller? Not whether you were right, not whether the policy got communicated, but what happened to that person's confidence, their ownership, and mostly their belief in themselves by the end of the

The Bigger Or Smaller Question

SPEAKER_01 1:52

conversation?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, and as we play and you watch this clip, hey, you guys don't focus on whether you agree or disagree with what's being said. Instead, your invitation is to ask yourself, hey, if I were the employee in this conversation, how would I leave feeling? Would I feel more capable, more motivated, more confident, or would I simply feel like I had been corrected?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

All right, let's go ahead and dive into the clip.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Let me demystify feedback to your silence. It sounds like this Hey, Steph, what you're wearing today doesn't work. It's not aligned to what our dress code says. My expectation is that you and dress codes we can meet all the standards that our guests expected us for professionalism. What do you think about that? Can we just avoid that outfit in the future? Coaching is not meant to be robotic. So let me give you another example of what this same exact conversation I sound like. Hey Steph, I have to talk to you about what you're wearing today because it doesn't align with what the ebook

The Dress Code Feedback Clip

SPEAKER_00 2:50

says that you're supposed to work for dress code. And it really lowers our level of professionalism when the school team doesn't show up in dress code. My expectation is that we all follow the dress code. So, what do you think about that? Could we avoid that outside in the future? Let me give you one more variation just for fun. Hey Seth, I have a conversation with you that I really wish we didn't have to have because we've had it a couple of times now. Let's talk about your dress code. You've shown up out of dress code a couple of times this week. And it really lowers the level of professionalism in the salon for the rest of your peers and for our customers. So, my expectation is we've got to show up in dress code. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Okay, so let's talk about what are some um just initial reactions, like what stood out to you immediately, Jen?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah, well, I was like, I was doing what I said is like putting ourselves in that employee shoes, and I just felt kind of like small, like, oh gosh, you know, there's more evidence. I don't do anything right. I knew it. I knew I'm not good enough. Do I ever do anything right around here? So I like from that perspective, that's um kind of what I was experiencing. What about you, Lindsay? What stood out to you?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, definitely, you know, and I I also thought about the emotions that

How The Employee Feels

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I might be experiencing as that person, and maybe even some of the questions that I had, like, you know, because like obviously it's different if it's a veteran employee um versus somebody who's brand new. Like, I always just would assume positive intent, or hey, like we don't know all of the context of what's going on right there. But if I was that employee, I might be thinking, gosh, if I'm new, nobody told me about the dress code, or if I've been there for a long time, maybe something happened, you know. And so I just think you know, what stood out is there's you know a difference between correcting a behavior and expanding a person. And I think, you know, to be a great leader, we get the opportunity to think about both. And you know, when we think about both, I think that that's when magical things can happen.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Yeah, because I I truly believe that like if you think about every coaching conversation, it leaves someone either feeling bigger or smaller. So if you caught last week's podcast, we did the sun and the wind fable. And you know, so if you if you caught that, then you know exactly what we're talking about. Um, but there was a contest going on between the wind and the sun, and the wind said they were gonna win, the sun said they were gonna win, and then you know, the wind used a lot of force to try to get this um um little traveler who was wearing a cloak, which is like a coat, and so who could get their cloak off first.

The Sun And Wind Leadership Lens

SPEAKER_02 5:37

So, you know, actually the sun did end up winning because it just used warmth, and so you know, think about that is what a beautiful gift to give someone to really truly expand someone because when that wind was being blown on him, he actually had his hood up higher, he zipped up, he actually shrunk. And so that's really interesting to think about.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, you know, and I of course I love that fable so much. And I think, you know, leadership isn't only measured by whether someone changes, because like probably the wind could have gotten that cloak off the traveler, but it didn't the tra, you know, the traveler like just gripped on tighter because like when you use force and leadership, like people are like, oh, they feel it, you know, they're like, oh gosh, like you mentioned, can I do anything right? You know, there's more evidence that I can't do anything right around here. You know, I think leadership is also measured by who people become because of your leadership. And I think, you know, sometimes when you've become um when you've advanced in your leadership, sometimes you think because you can get from point A to point B really quickly, if you just tell people how to get from point A to point B really quickly, that they'll get there in the same amount of time. But oftentimes, you know, it creates the opposite. Then people depend on you to get them from point A to point B the fastest. And so, you know, they don't become the type of person who is self-sufficient, they become the type of person who depends on somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I think that brings us to our discussion and the opportunity is the difference between you said it, Lindsay, the difference between tell versus discover. So just thinking having a conversation with a teammate, you know, when you tell someone you're doing corrections, you're giving them instructions, you're offering solutions, you're saying, like, here's what you need to do, right? Versus when you create the place of discovery or an environment for discovery, you create curiosity, you create reflection, you actually create ownership. And then with all of that, you create that internal motivation.

Tell Versus Discover Coaching

SPEAKER_02 7:51

And so today we want to walk you through a fun little framework, framework that we love. It's called Ask, Imagine, and Invite, which is a beautiful tool to utilize and create that discovery.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah. And, you know, obviously, this is something you can utilize right away in your salon today. Um, but I think one of the biggest uh marks of a great leader in the world is just somebody who has the ability to remain curious. Like you're not telling, like, you know, Jen just talked about the difference between telling versus discovering. Like when you can remain curious, that's one of the biggest superpowers you can have. So, like Jen mentioned, this framework is so powerful. Ask, imagine,

Ask, Imagine, Invite Framework

SPEAKER_01 8:35

invite. So when you're asking, you know, think about curiosity before conclusions, you know. So that could look like, hey, you know, I noticed. Um, well, first of all, we always love to start with a win. Anytime you're gonna have a conversation with someone, like, hey, first of all, I noticed you showed up early to work today. Great job. You know, give them a high five. Like, I'm just curious. I noticed that you showed up out a dress code, you know, like help me understand what's going on. Has anybody explained it to you? You know, what is your definition of what it should look like? You know, because you want to start to separate those observations from what you're assuming about them. So you want to gather information from them before you give them any kind of advice, you know. So, hey, walk me through what happened, help me understand. Has anyone explained this before? Like, what do you think, you know, the expectation is here? So uh but the key thing here is that questions create thinkers and we want people to be able to think for themselves, you know, and so that leads us into step two, which is where they you imagine with them, you know. So let us help you have some ideas of what success might look like here. So, you know, they you ask them the questions like, hey, you know, help me understand what happened today, and then you start to imagine things together. Okay, so hey, this is great, you know, we learned about the dress code. Like, let's imagine tomorrow goes perfectly. What does that look like? How do you show up? You know, how would that impact our guests? You know, how would that impact your own confidence? You know, you really want to move people toward the picture that you're creating. So picturing your imagining success with them together, you're creating that pathway for them. And then you want to go ahead and invite, you know, instead of assigning the ownership to the person like tomorrow I need you to do this, you're gonna show up in dress code, you know. You've got to invite that ownership, you know. So, okay, so tell me, what do you think the next step is? Or, you know, what's one thing that you'll do differently? Or, you know, would you like some ideas for what that might look like? Or how can I support you? You know, use that one with caution because someone um who isn't super responsible is like, well, you can come over to my house and do my laundry. You know, they'll enroll you in all kinds of stuff. But, you know, getting them to start thinking about, you know, inviting them into that ownership, that's the key here because people are far more committed to ideas that they help create than the ideas that you create for them.

unknown 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

You know, that brings us to, I think, a beautiful leadership principle to um that really expands someone is the difference between compliance versus ownership. So when you think about compliance, like people do it because you're in the room, right? It's like they feel like they have to,

Compliance Versus Ownership

SPEAKER_02 11:42

not that they get to, they have to. Where ownership comes from a place of like, wow, Lindsay showed me that. I did it, and look what happened. Like that's taken, wow, I want more of that. So there really is a really big difference when you're compliance. You're just telling them, hey, you know, don't come dressed like that anymore versus ownership was going through the ask, imagine, and invite. And I think another leadership principle here is to think about the difference between confidence versus fear. Like, you know, it's sometimes it's a beautiful thing to put yourself into your teammates' shoes. Like, how do they feel when you're speaking to them like that? Um, what is it? What are the emotions? Like, what is your body saying? Um, you know, usually they're gonna feel fear. Like, again, like I said earlier, is like, well, gosh, I don't do anything right. All they do is talk about what I don't do right. Because naturally, as human beings, it's so easy to spot the negative before the positive. So when you approach it from that, from that stance, like it's gonna make them feel fear, feel fearful instead of having confidence. So confidence, the word in there, uh, feder means to trust. So they're gonna trust themselves, but they're also gonna trust you when you have a conversation that comes from uh discovery instead of telling. Um, and then that's also gonna create growth versus dependence. Uh isn't that so exciting? You know, dependence is like, oh gosh, I don't know what to do. Let me text so and so, or let me call so and so. But when you experience growth, they actually um get to feel like a whole new version of themselves. And they may not have the words to explain it, but other things in their life start to elevate as well. And so that's a really beautiful thing to look at, you know, because when you when you think about all that, great leaders don't create employees or teammates who need uh who need answers. Like they truly create people who know how to think.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, you know, and Jen, when I think about this like personally in my own life, like I think about, you know, I have three kids that I have the opportunity to be their mother. And um, man, it's just like such a sacred thing. I know, Jen, you have, you know, helped raise your nieces as well. And, you know, maybe if you're a listener, you have your own kids, or maybe you've seen kids, or you remember when you were a kid yourself, you know. I think one of the most challenging things is that like everybody

Parenting Lessons For Leaders

SPEAKER_01 14:15

has to learn through their own mistakes. I think sometimes it's confusing for moms because they're like, hey, let me just give you the cheat code. Here's everything that I did wrong. And if you could just avoid doing that, you'll have a great life, you know. And so, like, you know, you have beautiful intentions sometimes when you're just like tell tell telling someone as a leader. You think, hey, let me just give you this little cheat code really quick. But what the most magical thing about motherhood and about coaching, if you start using the ask, imagine invite theory is that like you really or not theory, it's not a theory, it's a magical little recipe framework that works amazing. Um that people just start to grow and expand. You know, I think about my 16-year-old daughter, and um, I was having a conversation with a mom a few weeks ago, and you know, she was going through some hard stuff with her daughter, and um she was like, you know, I just don't notice that you're doing that uh with your own daughter. And I was like, well, first of all, this is not a comparison game. I was like, everybody's different. I'm gonna have challenges. Like I had I have challenges, you know, like they exist. I was like, but I think, you know, one of the most important things is like creating that safety for them right now that, like, hey, it's okay to make mistakes. Like, you know, it's okay that your daughter made these mistakes. Like, she's a beautiful human being. Like, I see her as a beautiful human being. I know you do too. Like, we've got to keep that trust open. And like, ask, imagine, invite is one of the best ways to do that, you know. Like, hey, tell me what happens. Like, you know, imagine if you continue doing that, or imagine if you did something different, or you know, helping them see that and then deciding what is best for them. Like, that's when you know, because like, hey, is this gonna work on like are the are people just magically gonna correct everything? Maybe, maybe not, we don't know, because like people are who they are, but it's probably gonna leave them, like they are gonna leave feeling bigger and more empowered and probably less likely to do the same thing versus the opposite. If you just tell, tell, tell, they might be like, Okay, when does Lindsay work again next? I'm gonna make sure I'm in dress code that day, you know. So it might work when they see you, but like what's actually gonna leave them feeling expanded and like they own it. And I think Ask, Imagine, invite is really the secret sauce there. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

That's such a beautiful way to say it, Lindsay. And so we have a personal reflection, an invitation for you this week is you know, I just want you to think about your last coaching conversation. Doesn't matter good or bad. And then I want you to ask yourself, did you talk more than you listened? Um, also ask yourself how many questions did you ask? And then did that person leave feeling expanded or diminished? You know, we've been going through some manager

Reflection Questions And Role Play Win

SPEAKER_02 17:12

trainings with inside salon business school with some of our managers and helping them really learn this, ask, um imagine, and invite. And it was fun. We've been role-playing. So if you have managers on your team that want some extra help, shoot us an email and um or text. And, you know, the cool thing is, is we were in a role play, and the person that was acting as the manager, and then we had someone that was acting as the beauty pro. Is at first the beauty pro did know what to say, but the manager gave her the space to keep thinking and to keep evolving. And then it was like her whole body shifted, and she had said the most, she's like, I'm so excited to do X, Y, and Z. And it's like you could tell in that moment, even though it was a role play, you could tell in that moment, like that opportunity gave that person the chance to expand.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

That really was a magical moment. I I loved that everybody got to experience that win together, too, to see how truly they can help transform somebody's life and like who they are. And it seems simple, but it really does create magical things. And so, you know, we would just we're gonna offer you a weekly challenge that you can take if you choose to, you know. So this week, sometime before your next coaching conversation, ask yourself, how can I help this person leave feeling bigger than when they walked in? You know, then challenge yourself to just ask one more question than you normally would before offering any of your own advice.

unknown 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Hey, and thanks for joining us for another leadership film study.

Weekly Challenge And Closing

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Um, we hope this episode helps you start hearing coaching conversations a little differently, not just listening for whether the leader was right, but paying attention to whether they're helping people grow. So we'll see you next time as we continue studying the leadership principles, hiding in plain sight.