Before You Cut Bangs
Hosted by Laura Quick and Claire Fierman, “Before You Cut Bangs” is full of hilarious conversations about real life, common and uncommon crises, and possible cosmetic errors that come along with it. Through storytelling and therapeutic wisdom, Claire and Laura share how to NOT fuck up your hair (and life) while walking through similar situations,
Produced by Will Lochamy
Before You Cut Bangs
3.23 Is Addiction Really A Disease??? w/ Keith Fierman (Claire’s Dad) Part 1
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Waiting on someone you love to “finally be ready” for addiction help can quietly take over your whole life. Today we sit down with someone who’s lived both sides of it: Keith Fierman, Claire’s dad, who got sober and then built a life around helping families in crisis find the right next step. We get honest about the fear, the hope, and the confusion that shows up when addiction is in the house, and why so many people feel stuck watching the clock.
Keith shares pieces of his backstory and the long shadow trauma can cast, but he also offers a crucial recovery lens: don’t rush to dig into trauma while someone is still unstable. We talk about why the addicted brain goes into survival mode when it feels threatened, how “helpful” confrontations can backfire, and why real support often starts with safety, stabilization, and a plan.
We also unpack what addiction can look like when it doesn’t match the stereotype, including high-functioning addiction and the terrifying speed of opioid dependence. Keith challenges two of the most common myths families hear: that someone has to hit rock bottom, and that they have to want help before anything can change. This is part one, and we’re continuing Keith’s story in part two.
Subscribe so you don’t miss it, share this with someone who needs a better map, and if our work helps, leave a five-star rating and review. What belief about addiction do you want us to tackle next?
Cold Open And Life Updates
SPEAKER_03Welcome to Before You Company. I'm Laura Quick. I'm a professional storyteller and I'm writing my first book. And I'm Claire Fearman. I'm a therapist, but I'm your therapist. Full disclaimer, take what you like, leave the rest.
SPEAKER_05Okay, like lots of things are happening. Probably everybody started school. I recently was dog sitting, Clay's dog, Claire, and guess what? She became a woman on my watch. I literally can't tell you how long I walked around my house thinking I cut myself. I was like, droplets of blood. Obviously, I have cut myself. Um, that's what's happened to me. How's school go?
SPEAKER_04We're off to a solid start.
SPEAKER_05Um Gus's photo. Gus's photo, back to school photo, it owned me. I've never been more inspired.
SPEAKER_04If I don't let you follow me on Instagram, which is the majority of people, Gus looked as stoic as what is that portrait called, the farmer and the wife with this picture. He was the farmer. And so I did a side-by-side.
SPEAKER_05He was. And it was great. It was a solid.
Loving Someone In Addiction
SPEAKER_05Okay. Well, we have something very special going on today. Today we're going to talk about what happens when someone you love is an addiction and you're stuck in the waiting and hoping that it will finally decide they'll finally decide they're ready to get help. And we're actually going to get to talk to somebody who not only got help, has used his life to help other people get help. Right? It's my dad. The prior. It's an iconic moment. Keith Fearman is here. Everybody knows Keith. Everybody. We talk about him since the beginning of the podcast. Hi, Keith.
SPEAKER_00Hello. I didn't even start school today.
SPEAKER_04I know. Well, you we're just so glad you're here. Um, so this was and this is something we've wanted to do. Timing has just never worked out. And then I texted my dad at 7 a.m. and he was in town and was willing to come here and do this. Um, this is important to me for two reasons. I'm shocked I'm not crying yet. It could come. But um first, I get asked about addiction all the time. I mean, I've been on the phone today with people asking, I helped a friend this week. Um, it's everywhere. If you think you don't know somebody in addiction, um, I'm not sure that that could be possibly true. So, first, my first goal was we got to like myth bust some of this stuff and normalize some of this. And two, to me, my dad and our family has uh an incredible story. I mean, pre-me, but I mean, before I was born, his story is incredible. Um, but is our lives changed when my dad got sober and then when my brother got sober. And I think people need to see the other side of that, that it's like worth going through the darkness to get what we have. So I'm gonna stop talking now.
SPEAKER_05I will say before you give us your intro and a little of your backstory, it's my favorite thing to have healthy friends who have really strong relationships with their family. Um, and y'all are really truly icons around here. We talk about the fearmans and how y'all take care of each other, and it's very 90s TV show, and I'm very into it. So I know we're gonna learn about the other side today and your backstory, but we're so glad you're here.
SPEAKER_00Really glad to be here. I actually feel like it's more 50s TV show.
SPEAKER_05Okay, even better.
SPEAKER_00Even but that would be because I don't really remember much 90s TV shows chasing children then, probably. Um, but um I am incredibly grateful for how close our family is. It's shocking. Um, and I say it's shocking because I see families and talk to families every day of my life. We were talking earlier, and I had to say, well, I take that back. I didn't speak to a family Christmas Day 2022. So it's been a little bit since I had a break. Um, but um, so it's seven days a week, seven nights a week, 365 days a year, short of that Christmas day. I got a day off.
SPEAKER_05Um okay, wait, just pause for a second. So for everybody who has heard your name a million times, because we talk about you all the time, at least Claire does, and we're always like, Keith, um, tell them a little bit about what you mean when you say that you are talking to families in addiction every day. Why, why do you do that?
SPEAKER_00Why is it that I do that?
SPEAKER_05Like what is it?
SPEAKER_00What is it exactly that I however my name got out there? Um it was in some ways greater than any expectation I ever had. And in some ways, and I've only told a few people this, I kind of saw it um in a very weird way. Um, I've only heard a couple of people talk about that, where they kind of saw like almost a movie of themselves. Um, and it didn't make sense, but it was very clear that I saw where I would be as nuts as that sounds. So um, but the backstory, let's catch up a bit. Yeah. So the um addiction part.
SPEAKER_04Well, hang on. Before we get to that, I'm gonna put it into one sentence. You help people, whether it's a mother, father, or the sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, dentist, neighbor down the street, find the help that they need and how they get there. I think if we had to put it into a sentence of you.
SPEAKER_05And it's mostly like you are an icon from a crisis intervention of helping families in crisis get their loved ones to the right help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I stood in some line too long because I can't not do it. And um it's just in my fiber, it's in my heart. And yes, so it doesn't matter if I'm in the grocery store, I see somebody, or I get a call from a dentist, a doc, a a mom, a dad, partner, an attorney. It doesn't matter. And it's um it's a beautiful river of of humanity that flows through my life every day.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So I would call you a healer. I think Claire's a healer. I think y'all must have that on your family, that y'all are a family of healers. And I love that because I feel like I I feel that way too, but like sometimes when you find healers, especially a family full of healers, it normally means that that's coming from some a deep wound, and that's how it healed up. You became healers from this wound. So will you give us like a backstory of of where did Keith Fearman
Keith’s Childhood And Early Trauma
SPEAKER_05start?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'll give you the quick the the the the movie trailer. Uh um, I can I've got a really great long-term memory. Now, I have no clue what I had for lunch yesterday, but long term. Uh, first trauma, clear. Day Kennedy was shot, J. F. Kennedy, not Robert, although that's clear too. Um, seeing my mother crying, just weeping, my grandmother crying, weeping. I'm not gonna go deep into that story, although it was pretty, pretty traumatic as a small child. Um, my mother ran to go get my brother from school. My grandmother took me around the corner to the bakery in Mountain Brook Village to get me a Coke. She was crying. Um, she ordered me a Coke. The woman handed her the Coke and said, Why are you crying, Mrs. Rubin? And she said, Uh, the president's been shot. And she said, I hope he dies. And my grandmother threw the Coke in her face, grabbed my hand, and took me across Caddy Corner to Gilchrist.
SPEAKER_05What a gangster.
SPEAKER_00I still remember the seat I sat on in Gilchrist. Wow. Um that same month or two, my mother got married to a really um sick man. Um, he could um show up as like Mr. Slick, beautiful. He could put on masks that to this day I've never seen the likes of, um, and had a streak of evil that I've never seen the likes of ever. Um, you know, you see a lot of trauma, you see a lot of abuse in my world, especially physical, sexual, that type stuff.
SPEAKER_05And that and when you say that, like just for everybody listening, when he's saying he sees it in his world, he's saying that when you see somebody who's in addiction, so much it's closely related to trauma, a lot of times. Certainly big trauma, right?
SPEAKER_00Of course. You see it in if any any therapist sees it, uh, it doesn't have to lead to addiction. Uh, sadly, it's a common thing, you know, child abuse, um, spousal abuse, that type of things. It usually comes in physical first and foremost, sexual, probably. I'm just throwing these numbers out, a second, close second, maybe in some cases. Um, and then the gaslighting evil um is probably uh a lot less rare, or a lot rarer, excuse me. Um, and the creativity around that evil um it can get off the chart, you know, scary. Yeah. For a kid.
SPEAKER_05So they had some either those insane like trauma marks from sexual abuse, physical abuse, or a crazily narcissistic evil person in their life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I'll give you if you want, like just some. I mean, you want some real life.
SPEAKER_04I think the story is important.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so a couple of things.
SPEAKER_04One is you're this little kid.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm a little kid.
SPEAKER_05How old were you where when Kennedy got shot?
SPEAKER_00I was under five years old.
SPEAKER_05And then your mom got married.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Four-ish, actually, to be honest. Yeah, four. Um, in between four and five. So she gets married. Um, some of the a little kid's biggest first fears in life are the boogeyman under the bed or in the closet. Um, he would hide under my bed um and like reach around and like put his hand around my neck and like say, you know, this you're gonna be, you know, taken away. And then, you know, I would run to the bedroom to get mom, and he would come in with like a glass of water. I can literally picture him and go, You've you've had a bad dream. And of course, when you're a kid, your mom probably believes that. Like you're having like because he's she's how maniacal.
SPEAKER_05How maniacal would he need to be to be on the kids?
SPEAKER_00She's not seeing that yet.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To jump ahead a bit, my mother, it's no, I mean, it was very clear I was her favorite. I was the sweet little kid. My older brother was Mr. Genius Savant, could really care less about sweet, fun things. He was in his own world in a good way, because it just he didn't see it. And I think my stepfather knew that he was too smart for this. And the jealousy wasn't there because again, my mother, you know, I was the cuddly one for her and so forth.
SPEAKER_05You were the gus. Yeah, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um, but she but but he had the smarts of gus. Um uh I remember in third grade, he was in third grade, I was in first, and you would go to parent-teacher conference together, and I'm staring at the teacher as she's saying to my mom, she's looking at my brother Michael, and said, He could teach Russian history at a college level. And now he's in third grade, so I'm feeling like I'm the idiot of all idiots.
SPEAKER_05I can't spell Russian has a PhD in mathematics, so I get it.
SPEAKER_00We're the on the same page, man. So at the same time, um, for whatever reason, he also he had a loan company, or he was the president of a loan company. And this is in an era when you could do this, and every night he, and it was small loans, it was um ten dollars to three hundred was the sign on the thing. It was on First Avenue north downtown. And he would call at night and threaten and scream and use the N-word, and like, if you're not there in the morning, I'll come to your house and kill you. I mean, that you could get away with that kind of stuff, first of all, back then, and that went into the 70s, even. We're talking early 60s, but that he kept doing that into the 70s. But even as a small child, I can remember looking up at him going, I'll be the opposite of you. Now, where that came from, I don't know. I know historically abusers turn into abusers, and I just knew it. I knew I'll be whatever the opposite of you can be. And that came to fruition. Um, but that went on. And then as I got older and the physical abuse included into that, I didn't really care about me, but when I would see it with my mother, that ripped me apart more than you know. I really would go numb when I would I don't even disassociate. I can remember the looking in mirror and seeing blood and stuff and like not even feeling the hits because it didn't matter. I was more worried about my mother. So there was a substantial amount of at first just scaring you, and then the the the evil lasted even until long after he was dead, and that because he spent he came up to me of several years before he killed himself and said, I'm gonna be killing myself on this day at this time, and he planned for years how to manipulate from the grave. And the short version of that was and I and I found him, that which was a very surreal thing when he finally did kill himself. Um uh, but he had manipulated this will where my little half-brother got everything, and there was no way he could give it to my mom, to us, anything, because there was trapdoors in place where it would go to the animal shelter or this shelter, whatever. So it was he wanted to manipulate even from the grave and did. Um, and that's just some small things. I'm not gonna go into some of the more evil things this, you know, on this show anyway. But growing up, the gaslighting, the evil parts were far more frequent and far more um horrific than anything physical.
Why Stability Comes Before Trauma Work
SPEAKER_05Can we talk a little bit, just take a pause here in your story and tell us like if you're listening to this and you have a loved one that is struggling with addiction, or maybe you yourself have struggled with addiction, um, what would you say if they're not sure about this person's past or their trauma history? Or maybe right now they're going, oh my gosh, obviously this is extreme, but yes, my person, the person I love and care about, also has trauma. What would you say to them in this moment?
SPEAKER_00If they have an addiction?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, if if you they're dealing with someone who has addiction, the family member. The family member.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I this is gonna surprise you, but I'm gonna say hold off on that trauma. Get them stable in recovery. Because if you're not stable and you've got traumas like I have traumas, and we cut too deep, you're gonna pick up a drink, a drug, or a gun.
SPEAKER_05So, okay, real quick, because I think that's so important and Claire, I think this is something you could weigh in on. It's really easy as a person with someone I've had people that I love have struggled with addiction. On the outside, you can see, oh, you're numbing. You hurt so badly from this thing, and you want to repair it, you want to fix it, you want to get them buttoned up. And so, why do we not allow them? Like, you can't go to them and be like, listen, you're actually hurting from your childhood wounds. Like, what would happen to a person if you did that to them?
SPEAKER_04At that point, you've threatened the disease, and so the disease will take over. So I have to walk so delicately. If I'm working with the addict, it's very different if you're talking with the family member. But if I'm working directly with the addict and I was like, you're masking your wounds and it's you're medicating, and we just need to get you sober. The diseased part of the brain would go into full survival mode and be like, I have to get the fuck out of here. I don't trust you. So it might come in a form of avoidance of me, angry at me, not trusting me. They're not coming back to my office because that is when they run away.
SPEAKER_05This is a flea moment.
SPEAKER_04Get out of there. Or then they'll be really dishonest with me because I broke the trust. So I said, you're medicating, you have this problem. And I'm doing this from the lens of like a therapist, someone came to the couch and was saying that. That doesn't happen actually that often, but sometimes it does. Addiction comes not because that person woke up one day and thought, I'd like to ruin my life, my spouse's life, and my children's life and use fentanyl, you know, like in an overdose. Uh, it is not a conscious wake up and ruin everything. And so I have to look at it as they developed a survival mechanism that likely protected them. If we're going through the trauma lens, that was so painful. Of course they medicated. It makes things better until it doesn't anymore.
SPEAKER_05You know, I didn't choose drugs or alcohol. I chose marriages. We know this. So many. So many. And uh, you know, if you're listening to this and that's what you're choosing, I see you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it comes in so I mean, right. You know, it's crayola crayon. You pick a color.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. But I want you to hear also when you have someone like that, their other personality is huge. So it's very glamorous. They owned a casino, and you know, I'm playing Jin Romney with Frank Sinatra, you know, at 10 years old. So I've got that side going too.
SPEAKER_05So where does the where do you think looking back at your story? Because this is really interesting, and I see this a lot, the charisma that a person who has survived trauma.
SPEAKER_04No, no, that was the the stepdad was the question here, because we're kind of this is an interesting episode because we're doing trauma and narcissism and abuse plus addiction. Yeah. So we'll get to the clean addiction part at the end. But what I think you were telling me about your stepdad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Yes. He was he had that other side that the world saw.
SPEAKER_02Ah.
SPEAKER_00The world saw Mr. You're too young to remember. I mean, he was on the front page of newspapers because around the time Bobby Riggs was playing Billie Jean King for the big match. You again, if you look it up, it was it was a worldwide sensation. He bet his life that he could beat her because he was a Windbleton champ in the 30s, and he could beat any woman. It was the win, he was gonna beat women's lib. So that was a huge attraction for my stepfather. So he decided to play him for a shit ton of money. Can we use that on this?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So everything in Vegas, and it was a big match, and I mean it was exciting. And again, that world was I'm living in that world too. Now, everything could be going great, and you're like in the high life and you're getting treated, you're backstage at any show in Vegas.
SPEAKER_05She told me a story about you being on the like being heard actually on the podcast in a what album was that?
SPEAKER_00Tom Jones Live in Las Vegas.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00And like I and that was like, you know, it's so surreal because if you think about the times, that particular August 18th, 1969, if you look at two weeks before we just landed on the moon, that very night across the country, wood stocks going on. I mean, so it's a total exciting time in the world and a scary time in the world, both at my home and in the world. Vietnam, you know, it everything seems scary, but there's also this glamour going on that could drop as quick as a guillotine. The slightest thing that goes wrong, we're packing up and we're out of here.
SPEAKER_05So, what does the guilt feel like for I think this is a really I've never experienced this exactly, but this idea that you could be so enamored by that lifestyle because you're little and you're seeing all these amazing things that your friends could never even dream of seeing, but then you know this is the same scary monster under your bed and who's beating you, and you're looking in the mirror. Like, did you ever feel like I feel wrong for liking these fun parts?
SPEAKER_00Uh you're just so you're just no. And it's a different feel. Uh uh, it's like that's your breath. You're like, okay, right now, as long as things are good. Good, let's just keep it going till it doesn't. Because you know by that by 10, I know it's it's a certain amount of time before the thing. You know, we had a electric garage door. And um, you know, my whole life when I heard that, it like I froze because I didn't know who was coming up because he could be any one of his personalities. And for whatever reason, even though we had some electric garage doors, until the house I have now in Utah, I never had one that was above like the garage door. And when we were moving in, and Stephanie, my wife, opened it. This is 40 years later, I froze like hearing that. That sound stopped me in my tracks. And I knew exactly what it was. I mean, I actually smiled about it. I was like, wow, it's amazing how traumas can live in your body that long.
SPEAKER_05The body keeps the score. So if you are listening to this and you have dealt with a major trauma, the body keeps a score, is such a it will just make you feel seen to know that trauma. What were you gonna say earlier?
SPEAKER_04I was gonna ask a similar question of the living in these two worlds had to have been wild. So one of my favorite parts of you is your storytelling. And I have about a thousand that I want you to tell. Um and but I and I want to get to the stories of just for time's sake.
First Use And The Trap Of Normal
SPEAKER_04Like, when did you start using? Did you have that feeling that I talk about with my clients of like that first use? And it was like, oh my God, I'm normal.
SPEAKER_00Totally. So let me quick, because I don't think you actually do have this story correct. I've heard you talk and things, and not and nor should you. Um through college, I probably overdid it, but never, I never once recall a having a craving, b waking up thinking I needed something. Um, but I was Mr. Overdue at some.
SPEAKER_05But again, I um just wouldn't have clicked, nobody would have looked at you and been like, wow, that guy's got a problem.
SPEAKER_00I didn't have a problem.
SPEAKER_05Right. You're an old party kid.
SPEAKER_00You were just a dermal village guy. Oh, yeah. I and I could have some of the more creative parties. Like I would have a roof party, which people thought was nuts because you had to kind of belay the kegs up so they didn't fall off the roof and stuff. But that was just fun, you know. Um, but um no, I had the offer. Matter of fact, um, if anything, I had a I stopped too early. I I recall several friends like, come on, let's do one more. I'm like, enough, you know. So I ran it forever. I had an accident. A buddy of mine uh shot a gun next to my ear, gave me tinnitus that I still have, but it gave me a horrific earache. And um went to a friend of mine who it was my brother who had gone to school with him, Jack Allen, was an ear doctor here in town, uh, just two years older than me. And again, I'd grown up with him. He was one of my brother's best friend, and he said uh at that time, this is way pre-opioid epidemic.
SPEAKER_04This is like early 90s, late 80s.
SPEAKER_00This is no, yeah, 90s. This is I can tell you exactly when it is. It's 94, 95-ish. Yeah, 94, 95. Um, my addiction was extremely short-lived. Um, and he gave me these um uh they were lore tab, not Laura tab, but lore tab. The guy that invented them lived on Overton Road. He has a huge house, he made a fortune, but it was long before opioid epidemic. Matter of fact, my home group was so full of doctors because they were sending them to doctors because there was no control over them. They literally could just order them to their house cases. It's funny how many housewives I worked with and doctors I worked with.
SPEAKER_05So wait, wait Lord is an opiate. No, no, no. I understand what I know exactly what Lord Tab is. I'm I think for the listener who doesn't know, at this time when you're going to get your ear checked out and it's the mid-90s, what are you doing for work?
SPEAKER_00Oh, so I started out of college working for my family, hated that business. Um, not that there was arguments. I'll just never forget my uncle. This is the 80s. And I said, I'll never forget. I said they own shoe stores, ladies' shoe stores. And back then it was mainly high heels and this. And I said, you know, we got to start getting into the what we call tennis shoes. They call them sneakers now, whatever. And he's like, women are never gonna go out shopping in tennis shoes.
SPEAKER_05Holy Lord, we live in them. You were ahead of your time.
SPEAKER_00Totally. And I looked at them like they like you're stuck in the 50s, even though I said, let's talk 50s. And I was like, this is not gonna work. And it didn't. And I got out of it. I went to a paper company selling paper goods. Probably one of the maddest things my wife the many things she's mad at. But when I went to treatment, I'd won employee of the year. And here I am in a full-blown addiction.
SPEAKER_05That's my favorite thing about not my favorite. I mean, it's a terrifying thing about seeing people who can fully function in addiction. High functioning addiction. Like you're like the number one employee of the company.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it's definitely mad at you because you're not going on the trip.
SPEAKER_00One of my closest friends um was my, you know, deep into this with me. I won't use his name, but and um I'll never forget he and he didn't really didn't have traumas. Um he that you knew of. No, he but he had a genetic thread for alcoholism. So even though he got out of the opioid world, he's still struggling to this day.
SPEAKER_05Can we talk about just for a second? Let's talk about that before you move into that. You just said something I feel like people are listening and they'll go, wait, wait, I've got somebody who's struggling. And I don't think, I mean, I think we grew up the same way. I saw everything that happened. Nobody, no monsters under the bed, no big traumas. Right. Let's talk about the difference between what you're talking about, trauma-induced um addiction versus.
SPEAKER_00And I'm obsessed with this.
SPEAKER_05So I know that I figured you were.
SPEAKER_00Nutty, you know, uh the there's probably 11 and a half to 12% of the population has the genetic coding for addiction, quote, alcoholism. The only really difference in America is Native Americans. They have probably a 90-something percent. You know, they were not introduced to alcohol until 250 basically years ago. So they haven't had the thousands of years to build up a tolerance like others have. Um certain parts of Europe have a little higher and a little lower, depending on how many quote, thousands of years that particular population has been drinking. So it's very clear studies have been going on since the 30s. So it's not like, oh, that's one study. I mean, study after study after study. So we know that's pretty accurate. So, yes, you can get it through genetics or you can get it through trauma. Um, you could probably get it. I mean, you can look at the Civil War statistics, World War II statistics, Vietnam, and it's all the same. I mean, people came out of the Civil War and about 12% stayed on opiates, and the others quit, and they were miserable for a few weeks. Um, and to be honest, there were more women addicted to opiates up until 1914 when the Harrison Narcotic Act was put in place, and you couldn't just go to the drugstore and buy it. Women go to the doctors, and it was good for anything. Stress, yeah, your your time of the month.
SPEAKER_05Your your husband's pissing you off, like whatever. Yeah. Okay, so we're Steph's mad because you've just won this award, and and she's doesn't discover that. How did she find out, or how did it come out that you were at?
SPEAKER_00So, okay, so it went very quickly to a yes, I want to answer Claire's question.
Craving, Withdrawal, And Obsession To Stop
SPEAKER_00It was the first time I felt like, wow, this is must be how other people feel. I'm not high, I'm not staggering, I'm not stunned, I feel normal. Like, wow, normal. And it's different, you know. I I mean, because I've done it all. And growing up, like I did it all. I just code it all, but I could just could put it down. I was at a party in New York, speaking of cocaine, and fancy penthouse party, and the silver tray came by, and the line of cocaine was so tiny that I was like, for a party this nice, that is one cheap, I probably used a little different word than than cheap uh line of cocaine. And they were like, no, that's pure opium. And I was like, oh, interesting, opium. And I didn't even connect the two of opium, Lortab. I did that line, and I was like, now I went from what I thought was normal to a superhuman. Um like, yes. And the next morning, everything that had never happened happened. Um I woke up craving it. Um and like I felt very unnormal and needed it.
SPEAKER_05Um and that's the first time in your life that that had ever happened.
SPEAKER_00Uh I did that for about a month or two, and I remember I was sick and I stayed home from work. And um I um I remember I forget if it was a cold or whatever, and I thought, shh, well, if I'm sick, and I still had some of the lore tap, and I thought, well, I'm home and I'll take a lore tap. And I remember 15 minutes later, I was not sick. And I went, oh no. Like I'm not sick, I'm addicted. And I remember thinking, I don't recall one thing about this in psychology. I was a psychology major in college, not because I wanted to be it, I just loved it. So I did everything. When you look at my transcripts, it's all psychology except or zeros, or just dropped out except for one B in this course that I cannot even pronounce because I forgot to drop it. And for whatever reason, this professor saw me and he said, Um, I I heard what happened, and I'm staring at him and I'm not saying a word. He goes, he goes, I'm so sorry. And I'm thinking, what is he talking about? And he said, Do you want to take the final exam? Or he said, or I can just give you a B. And I went, you know, just give me the B. So on that record, because I remember I had to pull him up when I was getting so wait, you still don't know what the professor was talking about? No, have no clue if you thought I had a family.
SPEAKER_05What a win.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah, it was a win. So yeah, that goes into a lower tab, you take the lower tab and you go, oh my god, I'm addicted.
SPEAKER_04I'm not in withdrawals anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I did well, I didn't know I was I was in withdrawal. Right. It doesn't. Oh God. And from that second, I became obsessed with stopping. Obsessed. Uh did things like, and I did travel a little for work because I had some parts of North Georgia and stuff. And I remember I would go and just say, I'm here for two nights. And I don't know why I would tell them that. Like, I'm not gonna leave the room. Like they're like, oh, we don't care what you do. And thinking again, if once it's out of my system, I'll be good and life will go on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And of course, now I know all of that makes no sense, but at the time it that was my thought. Get it.
SPEAKER_05But you wanted it fixed too.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So when she found out she
Treatment Mistakes And Desperate Decisions
SPEAKER_00being my Stephanie, yes, um, a very a mix-up happened. At the same time, I'll just for argument's sake, there was a relative of mine also going to treatment. And I went to um, and they said, Oh, you can't go because your relative's going. And so they took me to a different treatment center.
SPEAKER_05Wait, you skipped the part about Steph finding out?
SPEAKER_00She found out you need treatment. It was real quick. My mother, I'll never forget, like, oh my God, you need treatment. It was like, okay, I was like, fine with it. So I go to this treatment center, and they take me to the different treatment center. And I'll never forget, I go up to the nurse's desk and I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And they said, Well, you're an observation, so just hang out. So I do that all day, and then I'm like, now what? And they're like, just pick a room. So I picked a room. This goes on for four days. Now I'm not talked to a person, not seen a doc, not seen. I'm just getting in line for food and sleeping in different rooms. And I finally said, I just do not believe you know where I'm here. And they're like, Of course we do.
SPEAKER_04And had you received anything for detox or withdrawals?
SPEAKER_00I've not talked to a person. Day five, I just walked through the business door and they're like, You can't, you can't, you can't. I walked into whatever the director is, and I said, prove to me that you think I'm here. And they're like, We know you're here, we'll show you. I don't know if it was computer. They said, step out a minute. And that minute turned to an hour. And when they pulled me back in, there was like five people in, two attorneys, and they said, We've made a horrible mistake. We don't, we you're right. We did not have you here.
SPEAKER_05And this treatment will be funny. I grew with you so much.
SPEAKER_00Now, oh, they were like, You can stay as long as you want. Oh, what I could have owned the place.
SPEAKER_05You could have, you really could have.
SPEAKER_00Matter of fact, my buddy, I'll just use well, I won't use his name. He was an attorney at the time. He's like, but he was another using buddy, so he was like, We could sue them. And you know, anyway, it was so you detoxed for five days, but nobody helped you? Yeah, I I actually got a ride home. Stephanie was like, No, you gotta go back. She came up finally, and by the end of that, she was like, This is the weirdest thing on earth. And it was totally weird. There was no, it was up in Huntsville, Alabama. It was horrible. Anyway, um, I immediately came back. Um got nothing out of that, was back in it within minutes, but within six weeks. Um, and I mean I did some nutty stuff in that six weeks to get my drugs. I mean, that Stephanie didn't know about matter of fact, she didn't even know about that until I was probably 15 years sober. Um like what? Yeah, so they headed to work. Um, so in Alabama back then, opiates were not a thing. You can just go on the street and find, I mean, period bar night. So um I would go buy a hunt, see you this afternoon, go into work, see y'all this afternoon, run to the airport, jump on a plane. I had a dealer in New York who was literally, he was like a banker. He was he didn't use, he was perfectly on time. I'd meet him in Alphabet City. This is also pre-9-11, so there's no security at airports. I would buy little bindles of China White, just put them in my socks, fly home.
SPEAKER_05I only had to do that twice because what is China White for those of us who it's pure like heroin?
SPEAKER_00That's like the like the best, the best hair, and there was no such thing as fentanyl back then or any of that. You know, the overdose you hear things because of like Janice Joplin and Jimmy Hendrix, but it was very rare back then that the the you know, long story short, that was nuts. But I wasn't dealing, even though I would have probably gone to jail for dealing. But again, I'm obsessed with stopping. Finally, I said something to her, and then her she calls my mom. My mom's like, I'll never forget her slamming the door, and she's like, they know nothing about recovery, addiction. They just she has one emotion, and that is mad, and you're an idiot, you're a fool, blah blah blah, and you better get help. And I wanted it.
SPEAKER_05Can you can you pause right there? Because I think that's really important. For someone, I bet they weren't looking at you thinking he's obsessed with quitting.
SPEAKER_00No, that's right.
SPEAKER_05They were had one emotion, so they're really pissed, but deep down you were holding both of these things. I have to have this drug and I'm obsessed with quitting. Talk talk to us a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_00At one point, uh talked to a person as nutty as this sounds about because I thought, well, it's impossible to stop. So maybe I could live some form of life. Now I'm young, I mean, like a lot younger than her. And I'm thinking, maybe I can be just live in a home where the kids can kind of visit me. And this is how crazy your brain can get when because this is impossible to stop. Now, if you know anything about recovery, the first step, powerless. That was like, I will never forget seeing that first step, powerless over alcohol, and your life's become unmanageable. This is how I mean it's nuts how how how uneducated I was. I remember saying, Who wrote that? I thought somebody in the building had written. I'm like, because I that's me. Oh that is like I can't stop in my life, so like truly unmanageable. So that's how insanely twisted my whole life was. So when I saw that, it gave me hope. Within a week of just being in treatment the second time, again, not good treatment, but I didn't care. I'm starting to do my own research while in the treatment.
Rock Bottom Myths And Family Bottom
SPEAKER_05Do you think that's Claire and I have had brief conversations about your loved one's rock bottom versus your rock bottom, the user's rock bottom or the person suffering with addiction? Like, do you think some in order for someone to get sober, they have to be at their rock bottom or they have to feel powerless? They have to be able to admit that.
SPEAKER_00I think that's one of the worst statements. Whoever came up with that probably hundreds of years ago has probably killed more people than drugs itself. I think it's ridiculous. It's if you look at it's in any medical book, it would be like me saying, Oh, you've got leukemia, but you know, let's let it get worse. When it gets bad enough to where, like, you know, we start seeing like some appendages fall off, we'll get you out. So I am not a believer in the whole hitting bottom thing. It's ridiculous. I do think families, and again, this isn't my story, but for the most part, need to hit their bottom. Yes, would I have killed to have a me talk to my family back then, 30-something years ago? Yes, I would have killed. So they could have just had a brief understanding.
SPEAKER_05My favorite thing that Claire's ever told me personally is you don't wait for their rock bottom. You just have to get to yours. Yeah. And when you're when you get there, you let me know and I'll help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But that's the kind of premise of an intervention.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, what do what do you mean? It's like life-changing because that is such um language in this field, in this world, in our culture of they won't get help till they're ready and they have to hit their bottom. And I'm unwilling to watch people die in that way. So I have to help the families get to their bottom and understand what that is. But one thing that I that, Dad, you're saying that is so astounding for people that might not really understand addiction is a lot of people in recovery that I work with and have since that was my first job was residential treatment when I was just a baby therapist. Most people I worked with want to stop so badly. Cannot. And when parents can wrap their head around that, that provides empathy to then get them the help they need. Getting mad does zero. Hiding the liquor bottles does zero. You know, putting the line on the liquor bottle does zero.
SPEAKER_05And also, I think that what's really important if you're listening. This and you're the person who has hit your rock bottom and you tried to intervene and you've done like you also they have to at some point there has to be a willingness to at least step into the trigger. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just like and I'm not saying I haven't seen it, yeah. It's very rare. I hear it all the time. But when I dig deeper and they say, Oh, I needed help, and I'm like, really? Like to walk me through that. And you know what? I it never ends up you know, I woke up and said, Hey Hutch, find me a treatment center, you know. Like, no, that just doesn't happen often. But look, I don't also know people that win the lottery, but somebody must because they fill those two.
SPEAKER_05I actually my dad did when I'm okay.
SPEAKER_00There you go.
SPEAKER_05And I would love to just share that story with you a different time. Yeah, but on a scratch off. You know what he sent me? What? He will he won a half a million dollars. I know. And he called me and he said, Listen, I want a half a million dollars. I'm gonna send you something. What do you think he sent?
SPEAKER_00Oh boy, I'm just so scared to ask.
SPEAKER_05No, but just guess though. It's way more fun that way.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I've got a gift card.
SPEAKER_05A hundred dollars.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, God bless. I was what a man. I mean, he stood up to the plate.
SPEAKER_05That's what I'm saying. I was really struggling. I appreciate that. Uh cash money.
SPEAKER_00So you like didn't even pay taxes on it.
SPEAKER_05Stangular bill, Keith. It's a real, it's a highlight.
SPEAKER_00Wow, what a dad.
SPEAKER_05I don't know. Keith's skill in it. Anyways, back to your story.
SPEAKER_00Well, my dad gave me a refrigerator and he didn't even win the lottery.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_00Now it was clear in his will. Like, it wasn't like you're left out of the will. No, that's not my dad. This is my real dad. It's like, make sure Keith doesn't get anything. Like, like, not just leave him out. He didn't like make sure you weren't in his will, but he made sure I wasn't. Damn. But anyway, so yeah, I would have killed. So yeah, the hitting bottom thing, and and Claire just mentioned another thing that is talked about a lot is you have to want it to get it. And that's another fallacy. Sooner or later, that is a truth. You do sooner or later have to want it. You certainly don't have to want it walking and streaking.
Part Two Tease And How To Follow
SPEAKER_05Guys, we are loving this conversation with Keith. Obviously, we want to keep it going. Um, we are gonna continue in a part two so that you can hear his whole story. And by that I mean one percent of his whole story.
SPEAKER_04Before you cut bangs is hosted by Lara Quick and Claire Fearman and produced by Will Lockman.
SPEAKER_05Follow along with us everywhere. Please subscribe to the podcast. Find us on Instagram. We're constantly doing polls. We want to know what you think. And I know that you probably know this, but reviewing us and giving us five stars matters more than anything, and we are so grateful to have you here.
SPEAKER_04We talk so much on the podcast about seeking therapy, getting help, finding resources. I would love to be able to help you with that. My website is up and running and beautiful. It is goodgrowthwithclaire.com. So, whether you're in the state of Alabama or not, I want to be able to help direct you to the right resources. Goodgrowthwithclair.com.
