The Life and Times of Theodor Joseph Kundtz

In this episode of The Disruptor, host John M. Kundtz takes listeners on a personal and historical journey into the remarkable life of his great-grandfather, Theodor Joseph Kundtz, an immigrant craftsman whose vision helped shape Cleveland and Lakewood at the turn of the 20th century.

From his humble beginnings in Metzenseifen (today Medzev, Slovakia), Theodor crossed the Atlantic in 1873 with little more than his skills and determination. 

Within decades, he became a leading manufacturer, supplying sewing machine cabinets, school furniture, bicycle rims, automobile bodies, and church furnishings across the United States. 

His entrepreneurial spirit left a legacy that touched everything from industrial growth in Cleveland to the iconic Kundtz Castle in Lakewood, Ohio.

John traces Theodor’s story through:

➡️ The family tree and roots in Europe.

➡️The immigrant journey that led to opportunity in Cleveland.

➡️The rise of the Theodor Kundtz Company, serving industries from sewing to automobiles.

➡️The construction and eventual fate of the Kundtz Castle, a Lakewood landmark.

➡️A lasting church furniture legacy, with Kundtz craftsmanship found in thousands of churches nationwide.

Blending genealogy, industrial history, and personal reflection, this episode captures how one man’s story reflects both the immigrant experience and the rapid expansion of Cleveland in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

🎧 Whether you’re a history buff, a Lakewood local, or curious about the immigrant roots of American entrepreneurship, this episode offers a compelling look into the past and how it still echoes today.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Agenda
• 1:39 Family Tree and Ancestry
• 2:56 Journey to Metzenseifen
• 5:46 The Kundtz Castle Legacy
• 13:08 Life on the Estate
• 17:36 The Sale and Demolition of the Castle
• 23:50 Cleveland in the Late 19th Century
• 29:23 Theodor Kundtz's Business Ventures
• 32:43 Church Furniture Legacy
• 36:33 Conclusion and Acknowledgements

Transcript

John Kundtz: 0:01

Hi, I'm John Kuntz and this is a recording of a presentation I made to the Lakewood Historical Society's annual meeting of membership at the Church of the Ascension in Lakewood. The presentation was given on Wednesday, april 30th 2025, and is entitled the Life and Times of Theodore Joseph Kuntz. I am the great-grandson of Theodore and self-appointed family archivist and historian. I also host the Disruptor podcast and am a blogger and a non-profit board advisor. Today's agenda how did we get here Our family tree medicine szeifen where it is and why can't I find it on a map? Since we're presenting in Lakewood, I'd like to spend some time talking about the Kuntz Castle, a Lakewood legacy. Then we'll shift gears and move back to Cleveland looking at the late 19th century look like, particularly as it was a time of growth and expansion for Theodor Kuntz's company, and then we'll discuss more than sewing machine. Theodor Kuntz's company made a lot of things, but in today's presentation we are going to focus on the church furniture legacy.

John Kundtz: 1:39

A number of years ago, our family hired someone to go to Metzenzeifen to research our family tree. We traced Theodor Kuntz's great-grandparents, michael and Katharina, who lived around the 1760s that would be my fourth great-grandparents, who had a son named Ionis. Ionis is essentially German and or Hungarian. For John, he married Anna. They had a son named Joseph, who married Teresa, and Joseph had Theodore. Then, in 1874, maria and Theodore were married in Cleveland. From 1887 to 1910, maria and Theodore had 10 children. Six of them are pictured here Ewald, my grandfather, angie, irene, dorothy, marie and Leo. On June 15, 1926, betty O'Neill married Ewald. They had four children Louise, ewald Jr, jay, andrew, my father and David, my children represent the fifth generation of Kuntzes living in Cleveland.

John Kundtz: 2:56

Let's take a trip to a town called Metzenzeifen. Metzenzeifen was founded in the 1300s by German-speaking immigrants. This picture, taken around the 1890s, shows what Metzenzeifen looked like then. It's not much different today. In the background are the Carpathinian Mountains. On the other side was technically Germany, which is why many residents, including my great-grandfather, spoke German. In the foreground is the church, the center of town, in a quaint village in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Before World War I, metzenzeipen was near the German border, but it was technically in Hungary. Mezenzaifen was near the German border, but it was technically in Hungary. It was roughly about 25 kilometers from Kosi and not too far from Vienna, bratislava and Budapest.

John Kundtz: 3:56

Today, mezenzaifen is called Medzev and is part of the Slovak Republic. Mary Queen of Angels Catholic Church appears to be the spiritual and physical center of the town. In this 1910 picture the church is on the left. In the background you can see the town cemetery, which still has descendants and cousins of Theodore buried in it. Medziv is still a small town in the foothills of the Carpathinian Mountains. Here are some recent pictures taken by a friend of the family. The first one is Medzev, looking east. You can see the mountains in the background. On the upper right-hand corner is the Mary Queen of Angels Church. There's a view of the cemetery in the lower left-hand corner. The last picture, in the lower right-hand corner, is typical of a village house in Medziv, similar to where Theodore or his family grew up. Their house is no longer there, likely destroyed during a flood.

John Kundtz: 4:56

Shortly after he emigrated to the United States. Speaking of that, in April 1873, theodore traveled from his home in metzenzeichen across austria and germany, ultimately to the french port of haver, and he boarded the ss denmark. The ss denmark was not what you would call a speedy ocean going. It was quite slow turning an already long trip. Even longer, theodore, without money, wasn't in a luxury class, so his trip was likely three or more weeks in cramped, dirty, unsanitized quarters with limited food and not a lot of facilities, so to speak. So while Theodore crossed the Atlantic Ocean from France to New York, let's take a look at the Kuntz Castle.

John Kundtz: 5:55

The Kuntz Castle was a staple landmark in Lakewood from 1903 to 1961. Let's deconstruct the castle's legacy. First we'll discuss its architecture, then delve into both the interior and the exterior. We'll explore what we think the life on the estate might look like. Unfortunately, all things come to an end. We'll discuss the sale of the castle to the Murrow family and its ultimate demolition in the 1960s. Lastly, we'll cover the rise of Kirtland Lane, which was the property's redevelopment. Here is a 1914 Cuyahoga County map showing the Kuntz property at 13826 Lake Avenue in the upper right-hand corner. This picture is a blow-up, showing it turned perpendicular, going west on the top and east on the bottom. You can see the property and from Lake Avenue to Lake Uri.

John Kundtz: 6:59

A number of years ago the Lake Hood Historical Society sent me some copies and they currently have in their archives the original blueprints for the castle, and here I'll show you one of them the original staircase blueprint. From the blueprint you can see the design, the architecture and the woodworking that Theodore called his mark. He essentially took his cabinet makers and his craftsmen and developed the entire interior of the house. Here's a picture of that staircase taken years ago when the family was still living there. You can see the ornate architecture, beautiful woodworking and furniture of this master staircase.

John Kundtz: 7:43

Moving to the outside of the castle, here's an original tower blueprint from the Lakewood Historical Society and here is a picture of the finished tower and you can see it matches the blueprint extensively. My dad used to tell stories about visiting his grandmother there. He doesn't remember visiting when his grandfather was alive, but he would visit his grandmother, maria and roam the castle. There was a bowling alley in the basement and he would mess around with that. When he got bored, setting the pins up manually, he would go up into the castle tower. It's about a three-story tower, maybe four if you count Pinnacle. You could crawl up to the top and look out towards the lake. This picture shows the southern side of the tower. If you looked out this window of the tower you'd be looking towards Lake Avenue, but if you went to the other side of the tower you'd have a marvelous view of Lake Erie.

John Kundtz: 8:45

Here's the original carriage porch blueprint. This was the front of the house. The house was built when few people had automobiles, so this is where you drive your horse-drawn coach or horseless carriage park and enter the house. Here is an artist's rendition with the porch. It shows the magnificent wraparound porch that starts in the front, goes to the eastern side and then around the northern side of the house. So let's move on and take a quick look at some of the exterior features. Here is a wonderful aerial photograph from the Margaret Manor Butler Collection at the Lakewood Historical Society, dated about 1934. At this point Theodore and his family had lived in the house for close to 30 years. Here is a picture of what they called the carriage house, but it really was actually a barn with stables, stalls, horses and cows in it In its own right a beautiful house, and the family lived there during the construction of the castle that wasn't completed until 1903. Here is a postcard of the house pointing to the house and the grounds.

John Kundtz: 10:02

Moving on, here's a picture of the north side of the house facing the lake. You can see the window up in the tower. Third floor must have had spectacular views of Lake Erie. This picture was probably taken fairly early after the completion of the construction, because the landscaping is still immature and the trees are still young and they haven't grown up, like you saw in the aerial photograph earlier. Moving towards the east side of the house and you can see the entrance to the gardens or grass. And then you can see the north side of the wraparound porch which we saw from that picture before. It started in the front, went to the side and is now in the back, moving to the front of the house or the south side, facing Lake Avenue. You see the porches again the tower, the carriage porch where you would come and drop off and park your car. And then here's another picture, taken a bit later, based on the maturity of the trees and starting to see some vines on the carriage porch it looks like winter giving a perspective of what it looked like from Lake Avenue as you drove into the driveway.

John Kundtz: 11:16

Let's shift gears to the interior. Here's a picture of Maria and Theodore inside their house, and next to them is an example of the room and furniture in the house. As you can see, there's beautiful furniture, beautiful woodworking. It's a little ornate. In my opinion, one of the things noted in the house is that there were these murals, and I'll show you some pictures of them. But you had these murals that went from the top of the windows to the ceiling some beautiful murals on the ceiling itself. We'll look at those in a second.

John Kundtz: 11:54

Going back to the woman at the bottom of the staircase from the previous slide now I have a picture taken a little later in color. You could see in more detail the woodworking. The craftsmanship Looks like the same chair in this picture. If you walk up the stairs you see the woodwork throughout the house. If we take a quick turn around and look down the stairs you can see I believe that is probably the front entrance or certainly an entrance. You start to see some paintings and furniture in the woodworking.

John Kundtz: 12:30

Here's more of the interior of the house. You can see the furniture and the woodwork. Each room had different types of wood. It got very detailed and pretty. One last picture of a lamp and a table and another interior picture with murals I referenced earlier. Here's a ceiling mural and one of the dining room murals. I love this one because it shows them eating breakfast. This could be when they were living in the barn while the castle was being built. There's a horse visiting. It's a cool picture. I would love to know if this mural was ever here. So let's take a quick look at what life on the estate looked like.

John Kundtz: 13:12

Here is a larger picture from the Margaret Manor Butler Collection from the Lakewood Historical Society. This picture was taken in 1934, discovered in the Lakewood Historical Archives by Greg Scent, and it's fantastic. It's a view that in my 66 years I'd never seen before. It shows not only the castle and the grounds but the paths down to the lake. Most pictures from our family albums were from ground level.

John Kundtz: 13:46

Here's a great example of a picture of the beach on the lake. This is one of the few properties in Lakewood with direct access down to the lake. Most of the lakeshore is very high cliffs. This property had a little beach that you could walk the grounds down to the beach. There was a pump house that pumped water up to the house and they would host picnics and cookouts down at the beach, and there's some swimming areas in the lake as well. It must have been spectacular on a beautiful Cleveland summer day. There were paths from the house to the lake. On a beautiful Cleveland summer day, there were paths from the house to the lake. To the right you'd go down to the beach the path to the upper left where the bench is, leads to a cliff overlooking the lake. Eventually they built what they called the Roundhouse At the top.

John Kundtz: 14:39

Here's a picture of Theodore. In front of it he has his cane, so this was after the factory accident that injured his leg and after that he always walked with that cane area. From the aerial photo it would have been a spectacular place to enjoy an adult beverage on a beautiful summer night watching the sunset over Lake Erie. Here is a picture of Joe, ted and Ewald in front of the castle. I have dated this picture somewhere around 1907, based on the relative age of Joe and Ewald. My grandfather, ewald, was born in 1901, and his brother, joe, was born in 1902. They appear to be roughly five, six or seven in this picture dating it to around 1907 time frame.

John Kundtz: 15:45

Here is another picture, identified around 1910, of Maria and Theodore in front of their house. Here's a blow up to give you a better perspective of their outfits. I think they really embraced the culture of the United States. I asked my dad if he remembers talking with his grandmother and he said she had no accent. Her English was very good. They spent a good bit of time learning English and assimilating into the United States as a prominent business couple trying to maintain Hungarian roots.

John Kundtz: 16:23

Here is a family picture around the 1920s. You can see Theodore and Maria in the front and the rest of the children in birth order. Not pictured is their first child, joseph Peter, who unfortunately only lived to two. I believe he died during one of the flu epidemics of the late 19th century. After that, ted was born, he was called Theodore Jr, but he had a different middle name. He was the oldest surviving son of Theodore and Maria. Then came Marie, ted's sister. Also not pictured is William Joseph, a special needs child with developmental disabilities and did not live with the family. He lived in Chicago, illinois, then my grandfather Ewald, followed by his brother Joe, born 12 months later. Next was Irene and then Angie, his younger brother Leo and the youngest Dorothy.

John Kundtz: 17:30

As the saying goes, all good things must eventually come to an end. Now let's talk about the sale and the end of the era. The time frame is 1945 to 1961. The sale of the castle, the one last look the public open house in 1960, and the eventual demolition of the Kuntz Castle. The Kuntz family's long association with the Lakewood estate ended in 1945, when the property was sold to Robert Murrow for $60,000. Here is a picture from 1955, after the Murrows bought the property and about five to six years before they demolished the house.

John Kundtz: 18:17

After Theodore died, maria lived in the house by herself. It was actually at the time when my dad now 92, and his brother Ewald, now 96, remember going to visit the house and visiting their grandmother there. It was a lot of upkeep. The children were grown married and were moved on and had their own houses, some in Lakewood and some, like my grandparents and his youngest sister, dorothy, on the east side. It became overwhelming for Maria to care for it alone, so they sold it in 1945. Under the Murrow ownership, the mansion gained the new nickname of Murrow Castle.

John Kundtz: 19:02

Unfortunately, around 1960, the castle and the surrounding land was acquired by the Eggleston Development Company for $110,000. Murrow realized the castle was an overwhelming undertaking to maintain and had unfortunately outlived its useful life useful life. The developers' intent was to redevelop the five-acre property into a new residential subdivision consisting of 16 custom-built homes. Before closing this chapter, the Murrows and the developers allowed one last celebration of the historic home, what they called a public open house. On December 18th 1960, the Cleveland Plain Dealer published an article entitled Last Look, then the Castle Will Crumble. They published smaller advertisements inviting the open inspection Saturday and Sunday afternoon, december 17th and 18th. Plans pictures, architecture sketches, will be shown of the luxury homes in the new development at that time known as New England Drive. Then the cranes came, the wrecking balls came. This Cleveland Press photo from March 8th 1961 of the wrecking company tearing down the house. All that's left at this point is the tower. Then the following morning, on March 9th 1961, the Cleveland Plain Dealer published this photo of the castle falling with the caption the tower falls with a crash. The house is now gone. This is a photograph and the corresponding article in the Cleveland Press March 8th 1961, and all it says is gone. With the demolition of the Gingerbread Tower comes to an end one era in Lakewood and starts a new one. The Westside Realty Company will build 16 homes in the $50,000 to $100,000 range in the area to be known as Edgewater Estates. It's always been referred to in our family as the rise of Kirtland Lane, the redevelopment of the property. Here is a June 22, 1962 Cleveland Press. Article 22nd 1962 Cleveland Press. Who article? We're about a year and a half after the demolition Bob Brennan, the real estate writer for the Cleveland Press published an article entitled Castle Memory Lingers in Kirtland Lane Homes.

John Kundtz: 22:00

He included a few pictures. The first home occupied on Kirtland Lane is listed as an air-conditioned New England model bought by Carlisle and Laura Milner. Landscaping here was installed last week. Here is a picture of the original model home for Kirtland Lane. Kirtland Lane. It's listed as a brick and frame home has four fireplaces, first floor utility room, kitchen and family room. Here is an interior picture of the Carlisle Milner's home entitled Spacious Setting for Relaxation. This next picture is entitled Three Levels Face the Lake.

John Kundtz: 22:47

This is the rear of the home being built at 1041 Curtland Lane for James Stouffer's of Stouffer's Restaurant. It will have a traditional front elevation with an attractive two-car garage. The home will have living and dining rooms, kitchen, breakfast room, library, bedroom and bath on the main level, plus four bedrooms and two baths on the second floor. Basement level consists of a family room, patio, barbecue and a boat storage room. This picture is entitled Southern Colonial is Among the Var of early American homes on Kirtland Lane. His home has a library on the first floor, a circular stairway, three bedrooms, two baths and a den on the second floor, wrapping up. Here is an aerial photo of Kirtland Lane. Most of the homes have been built. Kirtland Lane runs down the middle of the property and Dakota Sack is probably where the original house stood.

John Kundtz: 23:50

Let's shift gears to Cleveland in the late 19th century. This was a growth and expansion era for not only the city of Cleveland and Midwest manufacturing, including the Raccoons Company. This picture shows the Cowgill River and the brown areaund's company. This picture shows the Kauga River and the brown areas is called the Irish Town Bend. It used to be called the Irish Town Bend neighborhood and redeveloped into a park.

John Kundtz: 24:16

Margaret Lynch, an archivist for the Irish American Archive Society, found that Irish Town Bend had not only Irish but a whole bunch of Hungarians. When she was looking at the census realized that many of the people in the census records listed their native country as Hungary. What struck her was many of those residents listed their occupation as cabinetmaker. Residents listed their occupation as cabinetmaker, woodworker, craftsman, factory worker, machinist. The Irish town bend initially attracted skilled and semi-skilled workers of Irish descent, but over time more Hungarians moved and lived in Irish town bend. The rationale is because it was within walking distance of the theater of Kunz company which is shown on the map. The original Sewing Machine Cabinet Works was at 122 and 124 Elm Street. Irish Town Bend has another significance there's a residence there at 41 Franklin Avenue, significant because Theodore took up residence there in the Irish Town Bend neighborhood.

John Kundtz: 25:33

When he arrived in Cleveland he was on the boat from France. He arrived in Cleveland. He was on the boat from France. He arrived in New York. At that time Ellis Island was not in operation so he emigrated quickly into the United States. He got on a train and headed for Cleveland.

John Kundtz: 25:51

But to give you some perspective of this picture shows Columbus Road and Riverbed Street, which is still there today. Then right behind it, between the row of houses on the yellow line, would have been Franklin Avenue. At the top of the picture you can see this church, which is the St Emmerich Church. But right here in this box with three two-story and threeow-wide houses is what we believe is Franklin Avenue and therefore we believe Theodore lived in one of those houses, most likely the first one on the left. If you Google 41 Franklin Avenue, you won't find it. The city of Cleveland renumbered the streets not only once but twice. This address doesn't exist because it was replaced in the early 20th century. Margaret Lynch and her brother did a triangulation work and pinpointed this location where Theodore resided, his wife, some of his siblings or cousins and other relatives when they all first moved to Cleveland.

John Kundtz: 26:56

Moving down the river towards the lake, we see a picture of the Theodore Kuntz Company. His cabinet work was set up for 122 and done 124 Elm Street in 1878. He took over the space from a bankrupt sewing machine company. In fact, he actually worked for that bankrupt sewing machine company. Even though Metzenzeifen was known for metallurgy and ironworks, they had cabinet makers there and we believe Theodore's father might have been a cabinet maker. Giving Theodore an apprenticeship in his early teens. This allowed him and gave him the skill he needed to work for the Cleveland Sewing Machine Company. When the company couldn't pay him, he took his pay in the form of equity and later bought them out, renaming it the Theodor Kuntz Company.

John Kundtz: 27:50

Here's a picture from 1879, a company photograph taken in front of the factory. We believe everyone is from Metzenzeifen. Almost everyone would consider themselves Hungarian. You can see from this picture there are two sewing machines. Theodore is the gentleman with the hat in the middle, not looking at the camera. There are some young employees at the top left-hand side of this picture, but they were all proud of what they were doing. The company had really started to grow.

John Kundtz: 28:23

Here is a picture of the Superior Viaduct around 1885. And at this point you can see the cabinet works, what they call plant one on the far left with the box, what they called Plant 1 on the far left with the box, the lumberyard and the flats in the early 1880s shows the business was starting to grow. A lot of people, a lot of wood. He also had a lumberyard in Lakewood which is a subject of another discussion because apparently it was one of the most notorious fires in Northeastern Ohio, still talked about by some elders of the most notorious fires in northeastern Ohio, still talked about it by some elders of the community. Then, around 1910, the Detroit Superior Bridge opened. You can see the five plants in the upper right-hand corner, the viaduct and the new bridge over in the flats. You can sort of see where the powerhouse is today. Since I am giving this presentation in a church, I thought we'd spend some time talking about church furniture.

John Kundtz: 29:27

Theodore was known mostly for sewing machines and that was certainly his core business, but it wasn't his only business. Theodore expanded into more diversified manufacturing over the years by the late 1870s, through the 1880s sewing machines was the business. The good news was that by 1879, for all intents and purposes he was the sole supplier for the white sewing machine company. Sewing machines were very popular and considered pieces of furniture. These machines were expensive and prominently displayed in parlors and living rooms. By 1887, plant 1, which took up the block of Washington Center, elm and Winslow Streets in the flats was solely dedicated to making sewing machines.

John Kundtz: 30:24

Shortly thereafter Theodore got into the school furniture business which he branded as Eclipse. He actually got into it by request. The Cleveland Board of Education needed a local supplier they could trust and asked him to make furniture which Plant 2 then produced, school furniture and eventually church furniture. Beyond Clipp's school furniture there was the bicycle rim business called. In 1897, theodore was granted a patent number 596424, for wooden wheel rims. Now Theodore already had about 40 patents, mostly for sewing machines. But this shows how he got into the business in the late 1890s.

John Kundtz: 31:14

I've seen advertisements from European cycling magazines from 1904 into the 1920s. These rims were considered high-end, relatively expensive, used by performance riders like France quality riders, and they were quite popular in Europe. He also was in the truck and automobile body business, popular in Europe. He also was in the truck and automobile body business. Plant 3 was a dedicated manufacturing automobile bodies for Winton White, peerless, stearns and Murray companies. Truck and automobile bodies made of wood were eventually overtaken by steel in the 1900s. He also was in the stadium and auditorium seat business, an offshoot of the school furniture business. By 1930-31, theodore Quince had supplied 62,781 chairs to the new Cleveland Municipal Stadium. If you've ever sat in that old stadium, those seats were manufactured in Cleveland by Theodore Quince. He also made seats for other stadiums, including Boston and other older stadiums. Unfortunately when they tore down the municipal stadium they didn't save any of the seats. If anybody has one I'm sure the Lakewood Historical Society would be happy to accept it. They're hard to find, but an interesting artifact for Theodore's business.

John Kundtz: 32:43

Let's move on to the church furniture legacy, a natural expansion of the school furniture business. He didn't organically grow the business. He acquired our church furniture company around 1909. It was founded by George Forbrower who apparently was a fellow practitioner at St Rose's Catholic Church, and the story goes that George was aging, his health was failing and he wanted to get out and he sold the business to Theodore. Shortly thereafter he started to see advertising brochures, showcase, theater quints church furniture like one entitled Da Vinci's Last Supper. What I find fascinating about the church furniture business allowed him to take his artistry, craftsmanship and cabinet-making skills to really expand it and utilize the true talent.

John Kundtz: 33:36

The school furniture business is boring, not a lot of room for beautiful hand carvings and elaborate woodworking. It's very utilitarian and functional. But the church furniture business is different, as shown by this beautifully carved in wood version of Da Vinci's Last Supper. Another couple of brochures advertise what he calls the kunst craftsmanship. Another couple of brochures advertised what he calls the Kunstcraftsmanship and the furniture and the pews designed and built by Kunstcraftsmen. At one time more than 5,000 churches in 48 states had handcrafted woodwork from the Theodor Kunst Company.

John Kundtz: 34:13

I picked up a 1916 church furniture catalog. Here is the cover of it and in the title page there were two pictures of the factory. The first one says the factories cover four blocks. The second says over 30 acres of hardware lumber. By 1916, theodore Kuntz Company had grown and expanded. Here are examples of church furniture from the 1916 catalog. Here's pew end number 114, altar number 12, tri-seat number 576, and high pulpit 389.

John Kundtz: 34:58

That takes us to the Church of the Ascension. Here is a picture of my 92-year-old dad in front of the church when we visited, after Greg had uncovered some wonderful artifacts tying the current furniture in the church to the Theodor Kuntz Company. Here is a letter dated April 19, 1916. It's a letter to Reverend Wallace Gordon, presumably the rector of the church, inquiring about providing church furniture In May 13, 1916,. A letter to R H Wilcock, who was listed in other documentation as the chair of the building committee. Essentially, this is a letter acknowledging the fact that they are going to respond with a proposal for the church's needs.

John Kundtz: 35:46

And what ties this all out is that on February 16th 1918, we have a copy of an invoice that definitely shows that business had been conducted between Theodor Kuntz Company and the Church of the Ascension. Let's take a quick look at the current pulpit, the craftsmanship, the choir pews and the church pews. And then one last letter, dated May 21st 1918, was a letter to Mr RH Wilcock, again acknowledging the payment of $1,590 and, of course, thanking the church for their business. The sales cycle went from inquiry to proposal to invoicing to payment it up. Theodore Quince thanked the church for their business and I thank you and the Historical Society and the church for allowing me to pontificate on the life and times of Theodore Quince. I'm John Quince, host of this special edition of the Disruptor podcast. Take care, have a great day.