The Immigrant Legacy of Theodor Kundtz

Originally broadcast on September 13, 2025, on The Hungarian Hour (WCSB Cleveland 89.3 FM)

In this special rebroadcast of The Hungarian Hour* (WCSB Cleveland 89.3 FM), hosts Walt Mahovlich and Elizabeth Papp Taylor are joined by John M. Kundtz. 

John shares the remarkable “rags to riches” American immigrant story of his great-grandfather, Theodor Kundtz. 

Tune in to hear how Theodor arrived in Cleveland with nothing and went on to build a massive manufacturing empire that profoundly shaped the city’s early Hungarian community and the historic Irishtown Bend neighborhood.

Key Topics & Highlights: 

1️⃣ The Journey to America: Discover Theodor’s origins in Metzenseifen (modern-day Medzev, Slovakia) and his arduous 1873 journey across the Atlantic in the muddy, unsanitary lower quarters of the S.S. Denmark.

2️⃣ Building an Industrial Empire: Starting as an apprentice cabinet maker in the Flats, Theodor took his pay in equity when his employer struggled, eventually buying out the company and renaming it the Theodor Kundtz Company. He became the sole supplier of ornate cabinets for the White Sewing Machine Company and expanded into school desks (”Eclipse”), high-end wooden bicycle rims, automobile bodies for local car makers, and church furniture.

3️⃣ Shaping Irishtown Bend: To staff his growing factory at 122 & 124 Elm Street, Theodor sponsored workers from his home country, driving early Hungarian immigration to Cleveland’s near west side.

4️⃣ A Legacy of Philanthropy: Remembered as a “friend of the worker,” Theodor was heavily involved in the community. He founded the Hungarian Savings and Loan Company, financially backed Hungaria Hall, and helped fund a George Washington monument in Budapest.

Community Call to Action: The Cleveland Municipal Stadium Seats.

Theodor’s company manufactured all 62,781 of the original seats for the Cleveland Municipal Stadium. There is an ongoing community initiative to locate a few of these surviving seats for installation in the future Irish Town Bend Park as a memorial to Theodor and the Hungarian laborers who built them.

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

Tori in Amerika: The Story of Theodor Kundtz: A private biography of Theodor written by Christopher J. Eiben in 1994. While hard copies are rare, an audiobook version is currently in development and expected to be available in mid-2026.

How to help: If you have any of these stadium seats (ideally 2 to 4) in your garage or attic - Message us 👇

Transcript

Music And Opening Context

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We just heard from Vera Yako with some classic Major nota. We heard a vocal version of the tune that is normally known as the Brahms Hungarian Dance No. Five. In Hungarian, the words say chendulnota, which means the song rings out. Next up, we're going to hear from our special guest, Theodore Kunst. So John, excuse me, from our special guest, John Kunst, John Kunst. Who will be channeling Theodore Kunz, I guess. So John, you are the great grandson of Theodore Kunst. Yes. Yes, that is correct. That's correct. Now where was your great-grandfather born and when did he come to Cleveland?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Great question. So first of all, let me just thank you guys, Elizabeth and Walt, for having me on the show. I am sort of humbled and astonished that 150 years later, after my great-grandfather emigrated to the United States, that the people in Cleveland, particularly the Hungarian community, stop me, and when they find they listen to my last name, they almost all know of my great-grandfather. So it's pretty amazing. And like I said, it's very humbling and very honored and gratified to be able to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

I'm so glad you could come and make time for us. Share your story.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

It's a typical small sort of town. It focused actually more on ironworks than woodworking, although we believe that Theodore's father may have been a cabinet maker himself and actually gave Theodore apprenticeship, which sort of got him into the woodworking and cabinet business. But the net of it is today Metzenseifin, and it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, but most people in Metzenseifen spoke German, although they identified as being Hungarian, and therefore the ethnic confusion. And to make it even more confusing, today the town is called Medzev, and it's actually part of the Slovak Republic, and it's about 25 kilometers from Koshi. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Koshitz currently it was known during the period of the Kingdom of Hungary, known as Koshaw. And there are a lot of people in our area who came from that area, including a lot of musicians, but we'll get to that later. Excellent.

A Border Town With Many Identities

The 1873 Journey To Cleveland

SPEAKER_02 2:56

So that's sort of the backstory. In 1873, Theodore, his father died, and like many people decided to emigrate or to travel to the United States for, you know, better work, better life. 1873 was when he started his journey. He went from Metzenseifen over through Germany, over to France, to Port of Haver, and boarded a uh um ship called the SS Denmark. Now, this was not what you would call a luxury cruise liner, and certainly Theodore probably had no money. So my guess is he was in the bottom basement quarters that were slow, the ship was slow, it was uncomfortable, it was unsanitary, et cetera. So I just can only imagine that trip probably took a couple of weeks to get from France to New York City. In once he got to New York City, he there was no Ellis Island, so you could quickly emigrate, got through, took apparently a train, came here to Cleveland. Best of my knowledge, the reason he came to Cleveland was there were some fellow Metzen Zipons, I guess you'd say, the Gideons, and there's a large Gideon popul uh family here, and so I think he had a cousin or a second cousin or some sort of relative, and like many times that you go where you know somebody. So he came here, and we'll get into it, but he his first residence was on 41 Franklin Avenue, which we'll talk about when we get into the Irish and the importance of that when we talk about Irish town bend. But what was probably more important is that he got a job as an apprentice at a cabinet making company down in the flats. It roughly was right near where the powerhouse is today on the west side of the flats. And you can actually, right where Spaghetti Warehouse used to be, and in fact, rumor has it that uh tavern across the street was actually his office. And you can still see today some of the remnants where it says woodworking. But long story short, he got a job. The company that he worked for was called the Cleveland Cabinet Works or Sewing Machine Cabinet Works. It had financial trouble. Like a good entrepreneur decided to take his pay in equity, and a few years later he bought the company out and renamed it the Theodore Quint's Company. And at that time their primary w product was sewing machines. Um and we can talk more about that as how and the importance of that to the white sewing machine company.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yes. Now so at this point he's living in Irish Town Bend and has established that factory. Uh at this point, uh, were there many Hungarian immigrants living in Irishtown Bend yet? Because this we're we're talking still the 1870s, is that correct?

Cabinet Work In The Flats

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Correct. So about 1873, Theodore lived there. And I'll go back a little bit. So the factory was at 122 and 124 Elm Street in the flats. So it was certainly walking distance to the Irish Town Bend neighborhood. 41 Franklin is an interesting address because if you Google it, you'll never find it. And the reason for that is, of course, in the city's infinite wisdom, they decided to renumber the streets three different times. So in the 1870s, it would have been 41 Franklin, and it sort of morphed to 81 Franklin in the 1880s, and then ultimately today it'd be 214 Franklin Avenue. And it's essentially right where Columbus Avenue hits the top side of Irish Town Bend. And the house was sort of between it was literally with walking distance down the hill from St. Emmerich's today, where St. Emmerich's is today. And there was a road, there was a little strip of houses between Riverbend Road and Franklin Road. And I pretty sure that we're pretty sure, based on some work that Margaret Lynch and her brother have done and some other family history is that's where he lived. Now, what to answer Walt's question, at that point I don't know, but what was on what was very interesting and why I think there's some real interesting connections here between Irish Town Bend and the Theater Quince Company. First of all, Theater couldn't find qualified workers. So he did like what a lot of people did. He went back to his hometown and to his home country and he started helping people come to the United States, and he would hire them in his factory. And so that's one reason why we have so many Hungarians in Cleveland, because they he he was facilitating that.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yes, because certainly the biggest immigration from Hungary to Cleveland really got going into the 1880s. Because when you spoke of the ship that your great-grandfather came on, uh in the 1870s, things were still very, very rough. By the mid-1880s was when steamship transport became more advanced, the trip became somewhat shorter, although it still was long and it certainly wasn't comfortable. I know my grandparents talked about this, and they came a little while after that, though still around the turn of the century. But so, and again, we see this situation where uh there's sort of a chain that is set up where people let people know back in the old country, hey, there are jobs here, and we could use you, and then they tell their friends and neighbors. And so this begins this chain of migration, which we see, and I mean we still see the same same thing over the decades and even unto today, though a bit less so with the Hungarians now. But please go on with the history of course, great.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

That timing is exactly correct because the he established the company in 1878. So there shortly thereafter in the 1880s would have been when he was looking for workers, particularly skilled craftsmen and cabinet makers. Back to Irish Town Bend neighborhood, when Margaret Lynch and some others were starting to do census records, they found out there were certainly Irish people there, but they had started to move out by that time, and it was a neighborhood of skilled and semi-skilled workers, as I'm told. And so it was a natural place for immigrants, particularly Hungarian immigrants, to settle. And so when Margaret was doing her research and looking at the s the census records, she called me up and she said, Hey, I'm looking at the census records, and all these people are listing their or their birth of origin as Hungary, and when we look at their occupation, they're cabinet makers, woodworkers, iron machinists, laborers, and even musicians, which is a whole another story, maybe a time for another podcast or another show. But so that's sort of what we believe is why they started to come here. And of course, they could all walk down to the, you know, 122 and 124 Elm Street where the factory was. And so there was why he sort of established it. And so the primary business in that 1880s was sewing machines. So he sort of essentially became the sole supplier for the White Sewing Machine Company.

Chain Migration And Irishtown Bend

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Trevor Burrus, Jr. I and also, just to add a little bit more context, we have to remember that in the early 1880s and mid-1880s, even the electric tramways, the streetcars, had not yet been established. So most people lived in places where they could walk to work. We see that also with the settlement patterns in Tremont, where people could simply, whether they were just an ordinary worker or even a manager, could just walk down the hill and they would find themselves in the flats. We had a similar situation with Theodore Kunz's factories with Irish Town Bend.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Right. So it was convenient and very practical, right? I mean the timing was just about right when the Irish workers moved out, the Hungarians moved in, and then the company really starts to bloom.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Correct. And speaking of timing being right, that's exactly sometimes it's better to be in the right place at the right time. And certainly at the turn of the century, sewing machines were considered actually a beautiful piece of furniture, and they were expensive. And so people would buy them with elaborate cabinet works and they would prominently place them in their house. Not like, you know, when I was growing up in the sewing machines stuck in the closet, right? My grandmother had one.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And they were beautiful with ornate ironwork.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Correct. And so that was sort of the core business allowed them to grow, but it didn't really stop there. What's really neat about what I think and what really made Theodore important to Cleveland and certainly the Hungarian population that supported that was he expanded actually by accident, or somebody asked him, into school furniture. So if you ever sat on one of those old school desks and it says eclipse on it, they called that, they that was probably made there.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

And he also expanded into other kinds of furniture. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Correct.

Sewing Machines To School Furniture

SPEAKER_02 12:25

So he had a number of patents, 41 or something like that, actually why it was uh elected to the Cleveland Manufacturers Hall of Fame. But one of them was bicycle rims. So he learned how to bend wood, apparently, and he made wooden bicycle rims. And they were very expensive. They were very high-end. These weren't like what you'd buy for a year and only your Schwin bike, but these were like classic Tour de France kind of rims, uh, very popular in Europe. He got into automobile bodies, made automobile bodies for Winton and White and Pierreless, all Cleveland um automobile manufacturing companies. Got into the school business, school furniture business sort of parlayed him into the church furniture business, which he actually bought from one of his fellow practitioners at uh at the church he was attending, who was aging out and wanted it. But I think one of the most cool things that he's done, and we will talk more about this, is he did as part of the school furniture, he he supplied all of the 83,000 or whatever no 62,781 seats that were in the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium.

Patents Bicycles And Auto Bodies

SPEAKER_00 13:34

No, that municipal stadium was built as part of the Great Lakes exhibition in the 1930s. That's correct. And many, many of our listeners remember it. It unfortunately was torn down and replaced by the current stadium, which is also on the lake shore. But that was really quite an impressive stadium for its day. It was owned by the City of Cleveland, and it was actually surrounded by walkways and gardens, which many people don't remember when we talk about repurposing the lake shore. Now, have any of those seats survived?

SPEAKER_02 14:12

There are that's a great question. And it's because just to back up, it's sort of e it's not easy, but there's a large large supply, if you will, on the third part market, you know, in the antique markets of sewing machines and school furniture. But to my knowledge, this stadium when they tore the stadium down, they had no plans for those that furniture, those seats. And I think I heard they just and I and I wasn't smart enough to go get any, but I think they just sort of gave them away. So they're around, but they're not, you know, there's certainly not 62,000 of them around, best of my know. So it's hard to find.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

So it seems like a uh great memorial, both to the people who worked in that factory and to your great great uh to your great grandfather, would be if some of those seats could be put into the Irish Town Bend Park. Now, is there a way if somebody has one of those seats that they could donate it?

Cleveland Municipal Stadium Seat Legacy

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Right. So actually there is much more to the story. I mean, it seems like Theodore was an incredible entrepreneur and he was very open to possibilities like he would purchase the furniture, the church furniture business. So any opportunities, he just jumped right on it. And this is such a beautiful story of From Rags to Rich's American immigrant story, isn't it? I mean, to consider how he came to America at the bottom of a third-rate ship in the sense it was not Queen Elizabeth's ship of any sort. By far, it's the complete opposite.

Philanthropy And Hungarian Community Impact

SPEAKER_02 15:54

What is the classic, you know, I had no money, I left my family at home, I had no idea where I'm going, and I found a place to work and I did my best. And and to answer your question about his community, let me talk a little bit about his community involvement because I think there's a little bit of a legacy here that will then go back to answer Walt's question, which is, you know, he played a pivotal role here in the Hungarian immigrant community. He uh founded the Hungarian Savings and Loan Company. He financially backed the Hungarian Hall that was on Clark may still be there on Clark Avenue in 1890s. He sent money oh, he was instrumental in funding and facilitating the the monument in Hungary, in Budapest of George Washington. What else did he do? And then he was just a you know he was very, so I'm told, very sort of low-key, didn't like the attention, but was very philanthropic. And and so back to Walt's question, I, Mark or Elizabeth and I have been talking about this, and I thought it would be a great opportunity if we could find some of these Cleveland municipal stadium seats. Since they've lived outdoors for all these years, they would be perfect addition to the park, and we could put, you know, so if we could get our hands on them and and somebody would be willing to donate them or or or buy uh buy them, sell them at a reasonable price, I think that would be a great tribute, not only to the the park, Irish Town Bend, but also to Theodore's legacy here in Cleveland. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

It would be a natural thing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Uh who could they contact if they if somebody has some of these seats and would be interested in doing this? How could they get in contact?

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Sure. Well, I I'm sort of become the self-appointed uh family historian archivist, so there's certainly I would be happy to field those calls.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Exactly. Wow, wouldn't it be fantastic if one of our listeners actually had some of these benches in their attic or their basement or the garage, and we could actually have the original handiwork of Theater Kunz in the park to commemorate this incredibly important Hungarian.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

But he had quite an he had quite an effect, and you know, it's one of these strange things. We're at this point where there are very few people uh still alive who remember that area as a Hungarian neighborhood, because that was basically turn torn down by the early 1950s. Right. And you know, very much like other other neighborhoods, for example, Buckeye Road had originally been a German neighborhood, and then all those Hungarians moved in. Right. And Slovaks, too, of course. And similarly, Irish Town Bend was founded by the Irish, but as the Hungarians moved in, the Irish moved out.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Well, the Irish moved out first. Vice versa, yes. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Well, as the Hungarians moved in, the Irish moved moved out.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

So there was a nice little shift. And of course, we'll be, you know, talking more about Theodore Kunz and his legacy and how we could remember him and all of the other people, the tremendous amount of people that he sponsored to come to America and work here. And some of them started their own company. If I remember correctly, he was urging some of his workers to start their own little entrepreneurial business. Am I correct? I mean, I saw that he said, well, you know, you don't have to work for me forever. You could start your own. I mean, that's what he did, right? He was a a a great example. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Well, that's great to hear because it's a big difference between the experience of working with him and the experience that many of the so-called old settlers, the Urego Merikai Mojaruk, the the Hungarian immigrants that came at the turn of the century, that worked in either in coal mines or in steel mills here, where they were faced at that time with their wages constantly being cut and really being exploited with the idea that there were disposable. And it's great to know that there was somebody who was not behaving like that towards our early immigrants.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

That's that's my understanding from just family lore, that he was he he said he was the friend of the worker, and he would talk we'd walk the plant and he would make sure that things were well. I mean, he was in a serious lumber accident, which because he was touring the lumber yard and wood fell on him, and that's why he walked with the cane for all those years. But I you know, it wasn't all roses. There's some history where there were some strikes and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Between uh between the usual stories we hear of the coal patches and that sort of thing in the company store. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

I will say when I meet many people that are from Metzenseifin and they ha r you know credit my great-grandfather for bringing them to the United States, most of them articulate a pleasant experience, not a uh uh oh my God, I can't believe your grandfather Yeah, he was a slave driver sort of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

That's he was inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

That's what I've heard. So other immigrants I hope that's the case.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yes, that's that's my understanding. And reading the book and hearing some of the stories.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

And maybe you can uh briefly tell us the title of the book so that people can find it.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

That's oh appreciate that. So my dad's brother commissioned a book on uh Theodore Kunst, originally published in when was that?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

1994.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Went through four editions. It's called Tory in America. Um it's written by Christopher J. Iben, and he's actually uh is a very good author. And a little another plug. So the book is hard to find. I believe the Cleveland Public Library has it, Lakewood Historical Society has one, there's there's a few floating around. But it was a private publication. And actually one of the family initiatives right now is we're taking this book and we're turning it into an audiobook. So sometime early first quarter next year, Tory in America, sh the story of Theodore Kunz should be available via audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

And Tory is spelled T-O-R-I. Correct. Trevor Burrus So that's Tory in America. And is that America with a K?

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Well the way the book is spelled, it's A-M-E-R-I-K-A. So in Hungarian.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

It's spelled in Hungarian or German, depending on how you look at it. Trevor Burrus That's true.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Trevor Burrus So and Tory apparently was the name or the nickname that Theodore, I don't know if he gave it to him, but that's what that was his nickname. He would introduce himself on Tory.

Park Commemoration Plan And How To Help

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Okay. Well listen, it's been wonderful talking to you. We're going to hear a little bit of music and then we'll be back to things. Thank you. Good. We will continue. Now we're back in the studio with John Kunst.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yes. So, John, if we could ask our audience once again what or rather share with the audience of what the plans are to commemorate the incredible legacy of Theodore Kunz at this park. The our the the idea of the plan is to find stadium seats that jo uh that um Theodore Kunz actually made, and we could contact you, John, and if you could tell us the contact there, if anybody knows of anyone.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Sure. First of all, I just want to thank Elizabeth and Walt for having me on the show. And again, as I said, I'm humbled and honored to ha after 150 years of people still wanting to know a little bit about my great grandfather. But to answer your question, yes. So what we're uh the plan right now is we think if we could get our hands on some of the original Cleveland Stadium chairs seats, they're easy to spot, they're this really ugly yellow mustard color. But nonetheless, I think they'd be a great addition to the Irish Town Bend park. And if you know of any, or if you know of anybody that has them, please feel free to reach out to me. Thank you so much for coming in and joining us.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Thank you so much for making time for us and sharing all this information. And we plan to have you back here as an update to this magnificent park planning for the Irish Town Bend. And in addition, I would like to put out a picture of that bench that we're looking for on the Hungarian Our Facebook page so that people have an idea of what we are looking for. But were there other colors than just the mustard yellow? Not that I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

That's all I've seen. I mean, he made stadium chairs for other stadiums like Boston's Fenway Park, a couple others, but all the ones I've ever seen are are that. But if anybody we could quickly tell what if they are or not just by some somebody sending us a photo of them.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Super. So do look at our Facebook page, Tori in America book is going to be posted there as well. And also a picture of the type of seat, the stadium seat that would be ideal to if somebody has them. And you know, I wouldn't be surprised if some of our listeners actually are holding on to one of these or two or three. Four would be ideal. That's what we're talking about. Four different seats next to each other, but two or three would also be very beautiful and acceptable and and ideal. So do contact us and thank you again for making time for us to come down and share all this important information. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.