Updated AF Collective
Welcome to the "Updated AF Collective," podcast where we celebrate the power and resilience of women.
Join me as we dive into inspiring stories, engage in meaningful conversations, and explore topics that empower women from all walks of life.
We believe that every woman has a unique strength within her, waiting to be unleashed.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, a leader, a creative, a caregiver, or simply on your own personal journey, this podcast is for you.
Updated AF Collective
Unmasking Narcissism: Strategies and Insights with Johanna Montenegro
Can you really spot a narcissist in your life, and if so, what can you do about it? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with licensed mental health therapist Johanna Montenegro from Boerne, Texas, as we unravel the complexities of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Together, we dive into the nuanced types of abuse—financial, psychological, and emotional—that are often hidden behind the charming façade of narcissists. Johanna offers invaluable strategies for recognizing and addressing these forms of abuse, empowering you to reclaim control and prioritize your well-being in any relationship.
Ever wondered how childhood experiences shape the development of narcissism? Johanna sheds light on the delicate balance between emotional needs and material indulgence, debunking the myth that trauma alone breeds narcissism. We explore the impact of parental dynamics on a child's personality and provide practical advice for co-parenting with a narcissist. Through compelling personal anecdotes, Johanna reveals the subtle yet significant ways parents can nurture a healthy emotional environment, even amidst challenging circumstances.
Navigating relationships with a narcissist can feel like walking a tightrope. Hear firsthand accounts of the isolation and manipulation tactics used by narcissistic partners, and learn the critical steps for setting boundaries and seeking help. We discuss the vital importance of support systems, from therapy to community resources, and offer guidance on recognizing red flags in new relationships. Whether you're co-parenting, dating, or working with a narcissist, this episode provides the tools and support you need to foster healthier, more respectful connections. Don’t miss Johanna’s insights and the crucial resources she shares to help you on your journey.
Follow Johanna on Instagram!
@wholelifehealing_
Visit her website for more ways to connect!
Clinical Supervision — Whole Life Healing (wholelifehealingtherapies.com)
*Disclaimer For This Episode*
If you, or anyone you know is suffering from any form of domestic violence, please seek help by calling your local police department, or the National Domestic Violence Help Desk at 1-800-799-7233. Help is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
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Speaker 2:Hey guys, welcome back to updated AF collective the podcast. I am your host, megan Worth. Today's episode. We have a really, really special guest.
Speaker 2:A couple months back I put it out over Instagram If there was any specific topic that you guys wanted to unpack or expert that you guys would want on the podcast, and a couple people made a comment that they would love to learn more about narcissistic personality disorder and have somebody on to kind of talk about it, somebody on to kind of talk about it, what it is, how to identify it and how to know if you are one, I guess. And I found the perfect person right here in my small little town of Bernie, texas. Her name is Johanna Montenegro and she's a mental health therapist licensed in the state of Texas, and she unpacks it all, you guys um, not only with her personal experience between, um, her and her ex partner, but also how a narcissist is, I guess, created. We're not born narcissist, narcissists are taught, and she just gets into all of that. And what I want you guys to take away from this is how to either identify a narcissist in your life, whether it be somebody you work with, your boss, or a parent, or your spouse, spouse, or anybody, maybe your adult child, I don't know and how to identify it, as well as what are the next steps if you have somebody in your life like that, whether you can divorce them or you have to co-parent with them, or it's your parents, so you feel like you have to kind of keep them in your life. Like, what do you do? How do you navigate that? Or even you are in a relationship and you don't know the person has narcissistic personality disorder and maybe after listening to this episode, you will start to see for yourself that you might be stuck or trapped in a relationship like that. Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy this episode. If you know somebody who's going through something like this, you can send them the episode. You can share the episode. I think you would be doing somebody a favor by sharing an episode like this, because mental health is very, very important. We all should be talking to therapists and psychologists, especially if you are a victim of any type of abuse, whether it be financial abuse, physical abuse, psychological abuse. And we talk about all the different types of abuses in this episode, because abuse is abuse, plain and simple. I don't care if you were physically hurt or you were psychologically hurt. You know, at the end of the day, it's not okay. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode, like it, share it, get it out into the world. Okay, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the updated AF collective podcast, where we celebrate the power and resilience of women. Join me as we dive into inspiring stories, engage in meaningful conversations and explore topics that empower women from all walks of life. I believe that every woman has a unique strength within her waiting to be unleashed. Whether you're an entrepreneur, a leader, a creative, a caregiver or simply on your own personal journey, this podcast is for you. Together, we'll share stories of triumph, discuss strategies for success and provide a supportive space for women to connect and grow. Get ready for real, authentic conversations that ignite your inner strength and inspire you to chase after your dreams fearlessly. Welcome to the Updated AF Collective. Hey guys, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2:I have a very special guest today and I put out a couple months ago that you know, what do you guys want to hear? What expert do you want on the podcast? And a lot of people mentioned that they wanted somebody who was an expert in narcissistic personality disorder, and I have that person on today. Johanna Montenegro is a mental health therapist licensed in the state of Texas. She is the owner of Whole Life Healing Holistic Therapies, her private therapy practice located here in Bernie, texas. Johanna specializes in relational trauma, including narcissistic abuse recovery, childhood trauma, partner betrayal trauma and spiritual abuse recovery and partners of sex addiction. She takes a holistic approach to therapy and is trained in EMDR, trauma sensitive mindfulness and advanced yoga teacher training. So, johanna, welcome to the show. I am so glad you're here. We have a lot to talk about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. So let's talk about how you got into this. I know we had a little brief conversation before the before we jumped on the zoom call, but let's talk about how you got into this. What made you want to help families and help other people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I started out my career as a therapist you know going to school and all that out of my own situations that I've experienced. So I had my daughter when I was pretty young and didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life, but was introduced to the career of counseling right, the career field of mental health, and it was that always resonated with me went to school and it was. I really felt like, yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do. But as I was in school, really felt like I don't fit into this box, right, did an internship with children who are aging out of the foster care system.
Speaker 3:So a lot of trauma, a lot of family trauma. And then, you know, shortly after that, got married, didn't realize I was marrying a narcissist. So that's kind of where that started, where maybe about halfway through the marriage, started realizing there's more than just unhealth here and there's something deeper, there's something really wrong in this relationship. And by that point I was, you know, working towards my license and learning more about, you know, trauma and abuse and all of those things. And so about halfway through realizing yeah, I'm in a. I think this person's a narcissist.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. That's crazy. So while you're in the course, you're connecting the dots with your personal life, while learning about what it is, are you, are you open to like sharing about how your, your marriage was? I mean?
Speaker 3:yeah, so early on, um, a very well, I would say, a well-respected person. People loved him. There wasn't anyone that had anything bad to say about him, at least from the people that he was introducing me to. The people in my inner circle, however, were like there's a big red flag here and maybe you should take this. You know, maybe slow it down a little bit. Very probably, shortly before we actually got married, he had shared with me that he had an addiction to sex and pornography.
Speaker 3:So, oftentimes that those things are correlated. Right Like behaviors of addiction can look like narcissism. Right Like behaviors of addiction can look like narcissism. At that time I was like, hey, let's put this on pause. My first red flag that I should have just like ran was him essentially telling me we're getting married or we're not.
Speaker 3:And the hard line in the sand yes and so we, you know, we, we did do some like couples work and he went to you know his essay groups and all that. But that started to become a pattern of when things got really bad in the relationship. Then he would go and say oh well, I'm going to get counseling, or I'm going to my, you know, to my group, and I'm trying to get accountability, I'm talking to my pastor, and then it would last for a little bit like just enough to make it seem like, hey, I got it all together, I'm good, and then the cycle would start back up again of the gaslighting and the manipulation and the lying and, um, just all, all of those behaviors. Um, it was about a year into the the marriage when I started realizing that that was going to be the pattern.
Speaker 2:Um, for as long as I stayed, Is it like a yo-yo effect, where it's like they keep you tethered, where, like you just said, like they'll go and get help and say, look at me, like I'm out here getting the help that I need, and it just brings you back closer, and then he'll get complacent, he or she will get complacent and then they they go, they go back to their old ways of treating you until you are having, like that, one foot out the door and then they'll go back and get help. So it's like that back and forth yo-yo effect.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and that's called the abuse cycle.
Speaker 3:So anytime you are in a relationship with someone who is narcissistic or experiencing abuse, and so the beginning of a relationship and that can be any relationship, right, work, friendship, parents, sibling or partner Oftentimes they're going to put their very best foot forward. Right, they are going to show you all the great things about themselves, but it's all a mask, right, and they sometimes will shower you with gifts and be really extravagant and you know all of that. But that's all transactional right, and it doesn't last very long and it can last a long time, right, right, and it doesn't last very long and it can last a long time. Right, like it lasted most of my dating and engagement period with my ex. So I didn't really know that until I was well into the relationship you know and married. So they they'll be. They can gauge how long it's going to take for them to like, hook you into the relationship until you feel like you can't. And so then the abuse cycle starts. Right, they'll love, bomb you and then gaslighting, manipulation starts to happen, denying your reality. We'll start.
Speaker 2:Can you unpack that? Denying your reality? That's a good one. I don't mean to cut you off, but I have a lot of friends that have you know like that will make a comment when they're in a relationship. It's like, well, you know, they made me feel like I was in the wrong for reacting a certain way, even though it had something to do with that person's actions. Is that what you're talking about with denying your reality? Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3:for a second. Yeah, absolutely that. And then also making you feel like you're the crazy one, right. So so a very simple example that I share. There's like there's a movie about this. It's called like gas, gas lit or gas light, I don't know um. But I go to the room, right, and I turn off the light. And then I come back to the room and the light is turned on and I'm like, hmm, I swear I turned this light off, so I turn it back off, leave the room, come back and the light is on again and I'm like, hey, did you? Did you know? Tell your partner, hey, did you? I swear I turned this light off. Did you turn it on? No, are you crazy there?
Speaker 3:must be something wrong with you. You need to go get your brain checked, right. That's where the gaslighting comes in, that's where that, that manipulation, where then you start to think man, is there really something wrong with me? That is like a super simple example of how situations are manipulated. Um, oftentimes and this is what I I had seen in my um marriage was that there was a kind of towards that.
Speaker 3:The last half of our relationship, I started noticing it more, but it had been happening over the course of our relationship where because in my particular case, right and this is not everybody's situation is that I was in relationship with someone who was addicted to sex and pornography, right, and so essentially things were very transactional in people interaction, right, not necessarily sexual either in nature, but things like meeting up with certain individuals that I'm like well, this seems a little questionable.
Speaker 3:Or inviting people over to our house Well, you're at the house, it shouldn't be a big deal that she's coming over, or there are other people. And if it made me feel uncomfortable and I said something well, you need to just get over it, it's not that big of a deal, like, it's okay. And so then I would start questioning myself well, I guess it's really not that bad, thinking that there was something wrong with me, and they slowly start to groom that person into believing that, into accepting behaviors that they normally wouldn't accept. Right, I would not accept the behavior of you know someone, a woman who was married, to come into my home late at night to hang out with my husband or my ex-husband right To do work right Not acceptable.
Speaker 3:At least for me, that's something that I wasn't going, that I wasn't consenting to, but I was gaslit into believing that it wasn't that big of a deal and that I was the problem.
Speaker 2:Jeez and yeah, like you said, like anything that other people would have an issue with for example, having a strange woman or a man, depending on who you are coming to your house and that person your spouse, your partner trying to normalize it when it's incredibly inappropriate. But they are like programming you to think that you're in the wrong, you are jealous, oh, you just have insecurity issues and stuff like that. So they're like you said, they're grooming you into thinking that you're the problem, which is crazy. And you made a comment about abuse and just for anybody listening that's still learning about this. Yes, there's a lot of domestic violence. I feel like that happens in narcissistic relationships. But can we talk about the other types of abuse that people cause? I was in law enforcement for 10 years and the one thing that I always got from a victim of domestic violence is you know, it never started off violent, but the red flags were there prior to ever that person laying hands on their spouse, for example, financial or psychological. Let's talk about the different types of abuses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so those are called hidden abuses, right. It's things that people don't see on the outside, and there are things that are easily hidden, right. Not everyone in you can see when someone has been physically harmed. You can't see when they've been verbally and emotionally harmed. You can't see when they are financially being abused, right.
Speaker 3:And so when it comes to that, one of the things as a therapist that I'll hear often from clients is that they're scared of this person, right. And then they'll have people in their life ask them well, have they ever hurt you or have they hit you, you? And then again that sometimes folks don't understand that that can feel gaslighting to a victim, because then they start to question their own reality of, well, I guess they're not hurting me physically, so maybe it's not abuse, maybe it's me. When, if you're feeling any kind of fear, right, or if they are being verbally intimidating or even physically intimidating, right, like they're punching a wall or they're slamming doors or they're throwing things around you, yeah, or they're getting in your face or they have a certain tone in their voice, right, all of those are that's all threatening behavior, right. That's all threatening behavior, right, which feels scary and the brain only knows that I'm in danger, right, so then we feel like I'm going to be physically. This person might physically harm me, even if they've never done that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even if they never do. Yeah, but there's other ways. And, like I said, like if you for anybody listening, if you feel like I have to be home at a certain hour or he's going to get in my face, I have this constant fear of him leaving, taking the children, like whatever. It's just that intimidation, manipulation factor and I think a lot of people don't understand that.
Speaker 2:Your mental health, if the relationship is destroying your mental health, just because, like you said, there's no bruises, there's no physical marks, your mental health is at risk and it is a form of abuse. There's many different ways to talk about that. I mean, oh my gosh, Like I feel like we'd be here all day, just. But I think, because society, we have it in our mind like, oh, like you said, he hasn't hit me. I should be grateful. I live in this beautiful house, I have a perfect family. He's never physically hit me, but he's thrown things around me or he limits my spending. I get a quote unquote allowance. I've seen all of these different types of abuse abuse from my domestic violence victims and I was in law enforcement. I would like shake them and be like girl. The signs were there the entire time, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and when, and for someone who's in the midst of it right, who is experiencing this type of abuse. They don't always know that they're being abused.
Speaker 2:Well because they're grouped Like you said, it's a brainwashing during the relationship phase and honeymoon phase.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And then there's this thing called trauma bonding that's happening at the same time. So the word trauma bond gets thrown around. And it's not your best year, like hanging out, you know, drinking cocktails, and like, oh my gosh, did you let me tell you about this story? That's just sharing stories. Trauma bonding happens in abusive relationships, when that abuse cycle is happening Right. So I'll often have people say things like and I've said it before like when the relationship is good, it's really good, like it's amazing, we get along really well, and when it's bad, it's really really bad. And one thing I have to remind folks is that even when it's good, that's still part of the abuse right there. There's a transaction going on there. So as long as they can hook you in, whatever that takes right, they know you, they learn you enough to know what's going to hook you back into that cycle with them. And and then that's what's creating what's going to hook you back into that cycle with them.
Speaker 2:And and then that's what's creating that trauma bond to where you feel like you can't get out of that relationship. So if anything that has like a high high and a low low, that is a form of trauma bonding, that is. That is crazy. So it, I mean what should a relationship like a healthy relationship? Should it just be consistent with? I mean, so it? I mean what should a relationship like a healthy relationship should it just be consistent with? I mean, what is what does a healthy relationship look like? Because I feel like, you know, looking back at my past relationships, I'm one of those people that I've made the comment like when it's good it's good, but when it's bad it's bad, you know. So what does a healthy relationship look like?
Speaker 3:yeah, the things that I define a healthy relationship look like. Yeah, the things that I define a healthy relationship by are not that it's void of some unhealth. Right, all of us to some extent have something to work on. We have some, maybe, trauma that we haven't dealt with, or some behaviors that aren't you know great, but ultimately, two healthy individuals are willing to hear from the other person when they've caused harm, take responsibility for that, and then there's a willingness to change and then there's consistency in that change. Right, and that doesn't mean that person won't ever do that same thing again. Right, but they tend to catch themselves or, when they're blinded, they, they take responsibility and ownership of how that made you feel. Right, and an apology is an apology. Hey, I realized I did this. I'm so sorry, not but you, and then this expectation of how you made them do this thing. Right.
Speaker 3:That's not an apology Again.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry you feel that way. That is like, that's like, that's a pet peeve of mine. When somebody I'm sorry you feel that way and I I'm just like, but what your actions caused me to feel this way? So, like, when they make comments like that, they're not taking accountability, that does that. But but does that mean that they're just a toxic person? Or our nurse, because I think we can be toxic and have narcissistic traits. But how do we know the difference between like a perfectly, you know, perfect definition of a narcissistic person or an unhealed person, somebody that just has, like a little toxic trait? I mean, I know there's a difference, because I mean, there's no way the word narcissism has been thrown around. We've all said it, we've all been like, oh, so-and-so such a narcissist. Um, you know, my, we all think our ex-boyfriends are narcissists. We all throw that term around. But like, are they really? I guess, what makes a narcissist a narcissist and what makes just a toxic person toxic? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I would rephrase it as a toxic person can be narcissistic and an unhealthy person, right? Okay, unhealthy and toxic aren't in my, at least in my, you know definition of it are not the same. Toxic individuals aren't willing to change because then it requires them to change. Right, it requires me to do something different, and I don't want to do anything different. So I'm not changing. You have to bend to me.
Speaker 3:An unhealthy person may be stubborn about certain things, may have a hard time coming around to the fact that they need to make adjustments in a certain area, but at some point they recognize it and then they take the steps and there's a willingness and there's an action towards that change. Right, and there are a lot of unhealthy people who choose not to change, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily narcissistic or toxic. However, when we're talking about being in relationship with those people, we also have a choice on whether we're going to be in relationship with someone who's unhealthy or not. Yeah, you don't have to necessarily accept it If it's causing harm to us, if it's causing harm to others, we don't necessarily need to um continue to be in relationship, or we can redefine what that relationship looks like.
Speaker 2:Okay. And so when you have clients come to you, patients come to you, um, and you I don't know if you say like correct me if I'm wrong it's not like a diagnosis. You get diagnosed as a narcissist, so you can say like so-and-so is you know it's, they have all the elements of this narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 3:I mean you, I guess, diagnose it for somebody, yeah, so um narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder that needs to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist or a counselor can do it as well but, um, psychiatrists and psychologists tend to do these long, more in-depth assessments. The problem with this is that most narcissists don't believe they have a problem. So when we look at the percentage of people who are diagnosed, just in the United States, it's like less than 1%, because those people are going to therapy, right, but it doesn't mean that they're not or that they don't have traits of it. So we can't really go off of that percentage because someone who is, you know, grandiose and you know more than just self-centered, is not going to think that they have a problem. You're the one with the problem.
Speaker 3:You need to go get help, you need to go see a psychiatrist, you need to get on medication, right. So when I have so I have worked with only with women who are navigating these kinds of relationships and, as their provider, I can't diagnose their partner, but based on what they've shared, right and and the, the characteristics that they share about their um, potentially narcissistic partner, based off of those things is where we can start piecing together. I think this might be what you're dealing with, right, and even if we can't put an exact label on it because that other person is not in the room with me, right, like I can't diagnose someone who's not in front of me, yeah, but even if that's you know, that's not the case, I can still help that person and we can still deep dive and learn more about those behaviors, how they manifest, how it's making that person feel and then how to navigate it, whether it's staying in a relationship, staying out of the relationship or redefining the relationship. Okay.
Speaker 2:And I've always wondered this and maybe you could answer it how does somebody become a narcissist? Is it childhood trauma? Are you born with that? Because I do I mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you know, we're all born with some sort of personality. You know my daughter. I realized she started to have a little bit of a personality around six months. You know when things start to show up a little bit. But are we born with this personality or is it created?
Speaker 3:We are not born with narcissism, so that is the good news. No one's born with it, but it very much is environmental. So, depending on many factors, you know how a person is brought up, what their childhood was like, and sometimes there's not necessarily these big traumatic things that happen, which I think there's a misconception with that right, like someone who had severe, you know, trauma in childhood then is narcissistic. No, there's a lot of people who have that story and they're not narcissistic. The easiest way that I can explain it is that they are emotionally underserved children and they are overindulged in exterior things right, so they're-.
Speaker 2:Oh, so they lack human, almost human connection, almost.
Speaker 3:So like maybe they were isolated as a child kind of thing and or, just like, had parents that were constantly absent yeah, so it could be that um, and and those two things tend to go together, right, because what's happening is that this child or this teenager, this person, is learning that love's conditional love is transactional, right.
Speaker 3:Right, I'm going to give you all the things. Which is probably a thing most of us need to be aware of, as you know, if we're parenting is am I overindulging my child in toys and activities and sports and experiences, but then not teaching them how to take ownership, not listening to them, not validating their feelings and not getting down on their level and explaining certain things? Right? Am I ignoring them, their emotional needs, and then overindulging all of these exterior right wants that they have? That is one, one of the ways, right, like that, narcissism can be created, because then we can become adults, or narcissists become adults, and you may notice this pattern of if you give me something, then I'll give you something, but if you don't, then I'm going to withhold love and affection or attention or money or whatever from you, because you're not giving me this thing that I want, that I think I deserve, and so they're essentially being taught a lack of empathy and a lack of responsibility. So it's okay for us to let our kids feel uncomfortable feelings.
Speaker 2:We shouldn't necessarily rescue them from all that Try to be a fixer, be one of those parents that are like constantly oh my child's crying here, take the iPad here, have some fruit snacks Like constantly trying to fix their problem, we're creating a narcissist. This is kind of scary to me because I'm like I'm that mom, that's like what do you need? Don't be upset, kind of thing, Although I do listen to her. You know my daughter when she's upset and stuff. But I'm just like am I just giving her things to fix what she's feeling? And coming in, it's coming off as transactional, that's, I mean, something to be aware of.
Speaker 3:Or it's uncomfortable, right Like, is my child crying and being upset that I didn't give her this piece of candy, you know having a full on meltdown making me more uncomfortable, and so then I give in Because I don't want to be screaming. Right, there's there's different ways to come up, to approach it, but oftentimes that's where narcissism is created. Or there is a narcissistic parent in the home and then there's a not narcissistic parent in the home, right, there's a more empathetic and loving parent. If that more loving, empathetic, kind parent is over-serving, then the narcissist right Neglecting the child's needs, you know, more emotional needs, right like, then that is also where it can be created. And so in a co parenting relationship, which is what I am I have to do is although mine are really young, so there are certain things that we're not, you know, they're not really noticing, but I've had my middle child, you know, recent, actually very recently share. She came to me and said dad doesn't keep his promises, not starting to notice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so she was starting to notice, and in that moment, right, I can be like, oh my gosh, you know, let me call him what it? What's going on? Um, but instead, right, validating that that that made her feel hurt and it made her feel like maybe she wasn't important enough. Hurt and it made her feel like maybe she wasn't important enough. And so it, it gave me an opportunity to be curious about how she was feeling about that and to leave it very open of what, what, how do you want to process this, right? And she's like well, it just makes me sad that he'll say one thing, but he doesn't do it Right and she's really little.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, but she's starting to figure it out. This is, you know, and if you stay in a relationship, say you guys never got a divorce and you stay in the relationship, that child can then start figuring out. Okay, who do I want to be more like? And it's probably going to be the narcissist, because the narcissist is more transactional, like you said, where it's like constantly fixing the needs of the child, trying, you know, doing that high, high, low, low with the child. So the child is also going to be strung along and then it learns that behavior and then when it grows up it can repeat.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, um, or if the healthier parent is not calling out the unhealth in the other parent, and that doesn't necessarily mean bad mouthing the other parent, right, that can mean um. So in this situation with my, my daughter, is that I validated her feeling, right, her feelings of maybe not feeling important enough, um, and then I was able to share with her that that behavior is not okay.
Speaker 2:Right, I didn't say anything about her father. Yeah, no negative words, not saying oh well, he's a so and so you know, that's just how he is. But you validated her because he wasn't.
Speaker 3:He wasn't able to, so yeah, and oftentimes what we'll see is that if and I'm using the example of like a narcissistic father and a and a healthier mother, typically that's just what we see, but that's not the end. All be all right.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, it's the opposite. Um, but say, one parent is, um, just going over the top, being maybe emotionally or verbally aggressive, is being, you know, rude and ugly towards the child. And then the other parent comes in. Well, it's, he loves you, right, Like I know he loves you and you know sometimes he does this and it's okay. Well, what we're teaching that child is that abuse is okay, Right. And so we become adults and we think that when our partners are treating us like our parent did that, oh well, they love us. They're just doing it because they deserve it.
Speaker 2:We're you know when, when, although it's a toxic relationship, it's what our brain knows and our brain will tell us like okay, like at least they're. Yeah, we're in a really toxic relationship, but it's predictable, almost because that's what you grew up in. So we're so conditioned to our childhood. And then we find people we always wonder like why? Why is this person like my mom? I hated my mom. Or why is this person like my dad? I hated my dad, but I married my dad in a sense, and we stay in those relationships and it just like blows my mind. But again, like you said, like we are conditioned as children.
Speaker 3:And oftentimes we stay in those types of relationships because we're trying to rewrite a story that we didn't heal, right? So if I didn't heal my, if a person did not heal their childhood wound, whether it was to their mother, their father, a sibling, right going to naturally gravitate towards someone who has those same characteristics, because I'm trying to fix the story that I couldn't fix back then, right, mom?
Speaker 3:didn't love me the way I needed her to. Dad didn't show up the way I needed him to, right. But maybe if I can fix this person over here and maybe if this person, I can have this person, give me the attention that I need or that I deserved or that I want, then I'll be able to prove that I'm worthy and that I am lovable and that I'm worthwhile to be in somebody else's presence. Right. And so if, when we're repeating that cycle with you know, continuing relationships, friendships, whatever the case may be we have to start looking backwards, yeah, and asking where what story didn't get healed, what part needs to be looked at.
Speaker 2:That's like mind blowing. I feel like you know, not everybody has like childhood trauma. Some of us had great, great relationships, but I feel like even during our childhood, our teen years, our young 20s, we're picking up these like little events that happen in life that affect us and maybe we don't feel it in the moment, but we're suppressing it and then going out into the world and we're dating and we're projecting. So I guess my question is everybody in their life should probably be in some sort of therapy so that we aren't turning into the toxic person. We're not all narcissists, but we all have toxic traits. Do you think that everybody should be taking time for their mental health so that we have these healthy relationships? We're raising healthy, emotionally available children and we're not teaching them to be these toxic people or, even worse, narcissists?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I'm an advocate for mental health, of course, but it is important, right, and we don't have to start therapy when something big happens, right, it can just, oh, so you don't have to wait to hit rock, have to start therapy when something big happens right, it can just oh, so you don't have to wait to hit rock bottom to start therapy.
Speaker 3:Actually, you should be in it while you're healthy, absolutely, because that's when you have the capacity to hold anything that might come up that you didn't realize or recognize that you had to either process or maybe a trait that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 3:You know within yourself Because if I wait till I'm burnt out or if I wait till I am trying to escape a now physically abusive relationship, that I don't have as much capacity to hold that because then you're just in survival mode. Right, it's always best to, if we have the capacity and we have the means to be able to participate in in therapy, to do that just as self care, because life is going to happen, right yeah, maybe not necessarily that you're in this horrible, terrible relationship, but life happens, right yeah. And if I can gain the tools to learn how to manage my own emotions in that and maybe reflect backwards on my upbringing or certain experiences with other people in my life and how I've responded to that, then, moving forward, we can handle those things better. We can see traits in others that we may or may not want to accept into our life.
Speaker 2:We can learn how to recognize boundaries Yep Setting boundaries, recognizing red flags right off the bat.
Speaker 3:And one thing I wanted to share is that not everybody that ends up in a relationship with a narcissist had abuse as a child or had a traumatic childhood. Right, that's actually my story is I had wonderful parents, great parents, and this is a conversation I've had with several clients is I didn't have the big trauma. I don't feel like I was attracted to this person because I needed to heal something from my childhood or because I was repeating a pattern. Narcissists are really really good actors. Charming is what I've heard. Yes and so, um, um, and if you find yourself in a situation where you are in relationship with someone like that and you can't pin it back to like I had this really deep trauma and so now that's why I keep repeating the cycle Oftentimes they do find the really good people.
Speaker 3:Right, most narcissists aren't going to be in relationship with other narcissists or like super unhealthy people because they don't have anything to feed off of. Right, they need the goodness of a healthier person or a kind person. Right, I was very naive and pathetic, oh yeah, and, and I consider like, if I look backwards, I considered myself a very like pure hearted, like child and teenager and young adult, and so I was very easily manipulated into believing that this person was what he said he was. And because I also have this heart to help people, I saw him as well. We can do this together. Right, like you have this addiction and it's okay and we're going to get through it together and we're going to do counseling.
Speaker 3:Right, like all of these things, I also had the voices of at the time, right Like my, my spiritual community sharing, like, not necessarily my parents. My parents were like, run for the hills, they're seeing the red flags, they saw it. But others in my, in my circle, who are, like you know, kind of conditioned to believe that you know you have grace for people and that you know everyone has things that they're dealing with. But you know you can work through it together.
Speaker 2:So you assume that he's going to take accountability and he's on board because he's telling you we're going to do this together. Babe, I love you. Thank you so much for helping and and then you yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I feel, feel like that's what how they get you like that high, high in the low, low. So you're in your high high, going to therapy, he's going to therapy, you guys are communicating in a healthy way, and then it gets complacent and drops back off again and then it stayed like that for a long time, where I'm fine, there's nothing wrong.
Speaker 3:You know you need to go get help, that kind of thing, yeah, but there, there, there are a lot of different types of narcissists. There's a. There's actually eight different types of narcissism. Um, so someone who, someone who is super like, full of themselves right, grandiose and might not be, they just might really love themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then you get it from a variety of different personalities right those who are very violent and aggressive and those who are emotionally neglectful and abandoning and they just leave. That was a lot of what I experienced was very much a lot of psychological and emotional manipulation. But then there was this abandoning, where they would be gone for days, they wouldn't talk to me for months, like very much existing in a home where I felt like I wasn't seen, I wasn't heard yeah, right past me. So we're talking about more of like the what we hear more about and what we see more about. But there's a wide variety of individuals who present with this type of disorder and it all looks very different.
Speaker 2:And I've heard that most people that are healthy mentally, emotionally, all of the things they take care of their self, but I've I mean correct me if I'm wrong, because this is just something that I've always heard you know, thanks to social media, this is a hot topic, and so somebody wrote a blog post saying that more people pleasers not necessarily somebody that grew up with a bunch of trauma or anything they could have, like you, had this great, great childhood they're healthy, but people pleasers are naturally attracted to narcissists and narcissists are naturally attracted to people pleasers. Have you ever heard that before?
Speaker 3:yeah, and that's true, because people pleasers uh, depending on who we're trying to please, right um, we can have boundaries with certain groups of people that we just choose not to overstep with. But, for example, if relationally, in you know, in a more of a romantic relationship, I feel like I can't say no, like I can't say no, then, yes, they tend to attract each other. Narcissists want people pleasers because people pleasers say yes most of the time to things that they want. So oftentimes they're not going to seek out the person who's very boundaried and is, you know, easily telling them no for things that they want them to do.
Speaker 3:Right, they are looking for the person who's going to say yes, who has a difficult time setting boundaries, which is why it's important right to either get into therapy or to have a healthy, trusted person in your life to be able to call out those blind spots Cause we all have them, right Um and to say, hey, maybe you might want to think about setting a limit here. Or I've noticed that you tend to say yes to this thing and then later you resent that you've said yes to the thing that you don't want to say yes to. Later you resent that you've said yes to the thing that you didn't want to say yes to, yeah, yeah. And so when we're able to set those healthier limits, when we understand our own values and what's important to us and what's not important and what's actually very damaging and unhealthy, it's easier for us to create those limits and then to say no to the things that we want to say no to and yes to the things that we want to say yes to.
Speaker 2:That's a yeah and I think, like you touched on something just a second ago, but, um, or when it comes time to leave a narcissist, um, I know the first thing, first things first, is to get help. So you, for example, like when I mean it's easy to say my ex-husband's a narcissist, but I don't know, I don't know and I mean he's I don't know. But when I left the situation, um, I did go to therapy and um tried to sort out the trauma from my marriage, because it was a lot of trauma, and so the first thing was getting help. How do you co-parent with that person now Because, technically, they're still in your life. They're probably going to be in your life for the rest of your children's lives. How do you co -parent with those types of people? That's hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, parenting. One thing that in my co-parenting journey with my ex is that I quickly had to realize that I'm not actually co-parenting with this person right, because that requires that co-parenting requires two individuals who, hey, the marriage didn't work out, but we have these kids and we're just going to love the heck out of them and be the best parent we're going to just be there for them, and we're just going to focus on that.
Speaker 3:And there's still open communication and maybe there's disagreement, but y'all always come to some kind of you know resolve that's best for them, right? Individuals who are in that situation with a narcissist right. Or they're having to share children with someone who's narcissistic or toxic. They're experiencing counter parenting or parallel parenting right, you're doing your thing over here and I'm doing my thing over here, and there's not really a crossing over of collaboration.
Speaker 2:Or that parent is completely going against everything that you're trying to implement with y'all's children right, I feel like they bypass the kids and go straight for the other person, like it's like they use the kids, as you know, just like, like I don't know like just they use the kids in order to get to the other person, because it's like a control thing. And what I've noticed is like cause I've been, I've been recently dating here and there and I went on one date with a guy and I immediately like checked out of the date early because he made a comment that in my I feel like I'm I'm still in my healing process from my marriage. But he made a comment that did not sit right with me. When I asked him him, how is the first question I always want to know, if he's a divorced dad, how is the relationship between you and your ex-wife? Do you guys have a healthy co-parenting relationship?
Speaker 2:And when he made the comment that oh yeah, no, we're fine, I just make sure that if she's dating anybody, it's in our court order that she has to tell me and ask for permission to have the kids be around that new person. And yeah, he had it court ordered that if his ex-wife was to go out and get into a serious relationship, the children were not allowed to be around the new person until she was married. And yeah, and I was like, wait, what? So you're controlling your ex wife's relationship? That has nothing to do with you. And he was like, yeah, I think that's fair. And I was like, how is that fair? Because that's not on you. If we got into a relationship, I would be allowed to meet the children.
Speaker 2:But he got it in the court documents stating that anybody that she enters in relationship with the kids will not allow be allowed around that person until they get married. And when I made the comment, wouldn't you want to know the guy prior to the wedding to make sure that this is a good fit for your child? Wouldn't you want to have a sit down conversation, still in the dating phase, to get to know that man, cause he's going to be around your kid? No, I want nothing to do with him, but she needs to ask pretty much him for permission to allow the children to meet somebody like that. I was like nope, bye. I texted him that night and I was like, hey, I wish you the best, this isn't going to work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and essentially like that is a prime example of how narcissists they try to control the spouse.
Speaker 2:but they also see you as their property Right.
Speaker 3:So, oh, I didn't know that ex-wife is in his mind, right, belongs to him Property. No, you're, you're, you belong to that person. So that's why you, you'll see, um, when you know, uh, someone tries to get out of a relationship that they are just, you know, no one can have you, and they try to make their life, you know, hell, um, or abuse starts to ramp up or even, as, as you know, tragic as you know ending somebody's life where you know, if, if I can't have, you know, one can have you in the, and that has happened, that happens, yeah, um, fortunately, and that's not every situation with a narcissist, um, but they always believe, right, that you belong to them until they decide they are done with you, right, because they found somebody else.
Speaker 2:Is that usually what it is?
Speaker 3:yeah just that you're. You're not useful, right? They're not getting supply from you, so whether, whether, you're with boundaries, yes, once we start setting limits and boundaries with these individuals, well, I can't use you anymore because you're telling me no, you're not engaging with me, you're not going back and forth, right? You're not answering my text messages, you're not being set off when I say something, you have no response.
Speaker 3:No reaction, so I can't use that I don't. So then they discard you and right Go find somebody else that they can manipulate and use and suck the life out of.
Speaker 2:So anybody that's in your life that you have that boundary with, eventually that person does calm down or they just completely disappear altogether.
Speaker 2:Like my ex-husband, I haven't seen him in five years and we have a daughter together and I realized when I stopped responding to his hateful calls and text messages he actually completely disappeared and we haven't heard from him or seen him in years. And so I feel like it's I mean it's hard, because when you're getting really nasty text messages, things that are like really abusive, it's hard to not react. But if you're not getting help, if you're not actively seeing a therapist or a psychologist, you don't have the tools to try to say, okay, well, I know how to deal with this, I know how to manage my emotions, so I don't overreact and give him what he wants and I mean, but for somebody I mean not every. But for example, like I know a lot of people probably want to get help, see a therapist, see a psychologist and stuff like that. But it's not, would you?
Speaker 2:You agree it is harder in today's world, like, if not everybody takes healthcare or insurance and then sometimes you have to pay a lot of money. Is there an easy way for somebody who doesn't either have insurance because that husband or that wife was the insurance carrier, or they don't have a lot of money. What is a resource or a place they can?
Speaker 3:go to get this help? Yeah, so there are a lot of resources available, right, books and podcasts from like not just influencers, right, like actual professionals who are putting this information out to help.
Speaker 3:uh, and you know, individuals navigate this, um, but even if you are needing to to talk to a therapist, right there are certain um resources in the community where you can go um colleges, right Like the universities, their master's level students who are getting their degrees in counseling will often they'll have a center where they can go and get counseling.
Speaker 3:Even if that person doesn't specialize in like narcissistic abuse or have a particular specialty, they're being supervised by someone, by a professor, usually a doctor, right, that has years of experience.
Speaker 3:So you're, you're almost getting two, two counselors in one um often are, you know, are great resources and many therapists do have sliding scale um options available. So if you reach out to someone and say, hey, like my funds are limited, ask them what their sliding scale offer is, and oftentimes they'll be able to reduce the price. If they don't themselves, then they can ask like, hey, do you have any resources of a provider? And usually they're in network with other mental health professionals where they can get you in contact with someone. Another thing is that you, if you have insurance, but the person that you're wanting to see is out of network with that insurance that you have, you can ask that provider to provide a super bill. So essentially, yes, you still have to pay out of pocket, which is kind of the crappy part, but then you submit that super bill to your insurance company and they reimburse you for that session.
Speaker 2:Wow, I didn't even know that. That's great, and then also so I was a police officer in California, so I know that our domestic violence victims if a police officer was to come to the house and take a police report or make an arrest or anything like that we have free services in California for victims of any sort of trauma, especially domestic violence. Does Texas have anything like that here where there are, like the county puts on you know certain, you know therapy groups and stuff like that for these victims?
Speaker 3:Yes, there are, there are shelters and there's groups and there are organizations that come alongside women who are trying to get out of these types of relationships and free of cost.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, are most of them free? Okay, so yeah, perfect. Okay, and do you for your specific services? Do you do so? Are you just licensed for Texas? I'm not really sure how it works, so excuse my ignorance.
Speaker 2:When you have these clients and stuff like that coming to you, are they from all over the country or is it specifically for Texas? So if somebody reached out and they were from Nebraska saying hey, like I heard I heard your episode and this is something that I really want to dive deeper into Could you help me? Would you be able to help them yourself, or would you have to refer them, maybe, to somebody over there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I am licensed specifically in the state of Texas to provide mental health therapy, so that is throughout the entire state. So I'll do virtual sessions. And then I have an office in Bernie where I see I have folks that come in from San Antonio and kind of the surrounding area. If someone is out of state and they hear this episode and they're like I need help, If someone is out of state and they hear this episode and they're like I need help, they can still reach out and I can help them find a person in the state that they are in. Unfortunately, our licenses don't all cross over state lines. Okay, so finding someone in the state that you're in is important. Now there are other resources that you can tap into that that's not necessarily therapy, but there are support groups that people can join and whatnot. They can do it online.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a simple Google search will lead you to those groups. I feel like so. When I left the Marine Corps, I really needed help with like processing certain traumatic events from that, and so a simple Google search for me led to free group therapy sessions and you know when a bunch of veterans would get together. And I know this has nothing to do with narcissistic behavior, but I think, I mean, a lot of our problems could just be solved by like, hey, free services for somebody leaving abusive relationship and stuff like that. There are those groups all over the place, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And I'm glad you said that, because one of the things that narcissists will do is isolate you, right? So if you start noticing that you are isolated from your friends, from your family, you don't have community, you don't have support, that's a huge red flag that something's going on right. And so, whether it's a Facebook group that you find, or reaching out to a close friend, or if you have a healthy religious community that you're part of and you're able to go to that church, you know finding individuals who aren't going to gaslight you into staying into a relationship, but who will listen to you. Right? Because the more that we're able to share our experience in community with people who are safe, we start to regain that strength and that confidence in ourselves, which is why they like to keep people isolated. Right, if I'm alone, I don't have anyone to rely on. Right, I don't have that 4am phone call. Hey, come and get me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the one thing in my marriage. I realized, like, real quick, my friends didn't like him and because of that, you know, he he sensed that my friends didn't like him, so he made me think that you know, it was like, well, my friends didn't like him, so he made me think that you know, it was like well, your friends are acting this way. They're not allowed over at the house anymore. I don't want to see them. So two years into my marriage, I realized I was completely alone. And it took two years and I realized, like one day I woke up and I really wanted to talk about something that had happened in my, in my marriage, and I was like there's nobody left. It was just him and I and I was completely isolated. And it does make it a lot harder to leave that relationship when you feel like you don't have any support to use. Okay, well, thank you. So so much. I'm going to let you enjoy the rest of your day, johanna, I just cannot thank you enough and I appreciate you. And for anybody listening, um, and you got anything out of this episode. You can reach out, johanna, I just cannot thank you enough and I appreciate you, and for anybody listening and you got anything out of this episode, you can reach out to Johanna. You can reach out to me If you don't. If you mind, johanna, I'm going to put your Instagram in the show notes so that people can follow you and reach out if they need anything, as well as your website that you sent me. So I'm going to add all that into the show notes so everybody can have access to you, because I feel like this is a really big topic.
Speaker 2:It's like you said. It's like it's one of those like trending words where we're all feeling like you know we're with the narcissistic person or we have a parent or anybody in our life. But I mean, we need to stop throwing the word around casually, because I feel like sometimes, if we're throwing that word around, it kind of waters the meaning down a little bit. There are, you know, but if you really are in a narcissistic relationship that you feel like you can't get out, you need to reach out. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
