How Associations Can Build Sustainable Growth With Patricia Montague

Bill Sheehan speaks with Patricia (Patti) Montague about how associations can strengthen member value, adapt to change, and build for long-term sustainability.

In this episode of Learning by Association, host Bill Sheehan welcomes Patti Montague, CEO of the School Nutrition Association (SNA) and School Nutrition Foundation (SNF), for a conversation about leading associations through disruption, change, and growth.

Drawing on more than three decades of experience in association leadership, Patti shares how SNA has evolved to support more than 50,000 school nutrition professionals while navigating workforce shortages, shifting member expectations, rising costs, and rapid technological change. Together, Bill and Patti explore how associations can rethink member value, strengthen engagement, and build sustainable models that support both their mission and long-term success.

The discussion also examines the growing role of learning, credentialing, and AI in helping associations prepare members for the future. Patti offers practical insights into balancing innovation with financial realities, designing events that deliver meaningful value, and helping boards understand the importance of investing in growth, technology, and professional development.

 Key topics covered in this episode include:

• How associations can strengthen member value while navigating financial pressure

• Why learning and professional development are becoming strategic growth drivers

• The role of community and peer connection in attracting and retaining members

• How associations can approach AI adoption while maintaining trust and credibility

• Rethinking conferences, events, and engagement models to balance experience and affordability

• The importance of credentialing, upskilling, and career development for the next generation of professionals

• Why sustainable growth requires balancing mission impact with sound business decisions

• How associations can prepare members and staff for ongoing technological change

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For more content like this, visit D2L.com/Learning-by-Association.

Don't miss our other show, Teach & Learn, a podcast for curious educators.

To learn more about how D2L is transforming the way the world learns, visit our website at D2L.com.  

Transcript

Bill Sheehan (00:00):

Welcome to Learning by Association, a podcast brought to you by D2L, where we delve into the ever-evolving world of associations and the challenges they face in navigating the currents of change. I'm Bill Sheehan, and I'm thrilled to be your host. Join me and our guests as we explore the role learning plays in driving associations forward and how it can impact every part of your organization, from recruiting, to engagement, and renewals, to staff development, business strategy, and more. So let's dive in. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Learning by Association. I'm Bill Sheehan, Global Head of Association Strategy for D2L. And today, we're fortunate, honored, and blessed, to have Patti Montague from the School of Nutrition Association. Patti's the CEO and has been involved with the School of Nutrition Association for, for a while. Patti, I, I would, it would be a disservice if I tried to give you an introduction.

(00:57):

If you could just give us an introduction a little bit about your history there with, SNA, that would be great.

Patti Montague (01:03):

Sure. Bill, it's great to be with you today. So actually, I will be with the organization 34 years, come June 1st, which I know is very strange in the world of associations in most jobs today. But, you know, I joined organization, just as starting to have kids. And, my School Nutrition Association, I have 50,000 members who feed students across the country, 30 million school lunches every day, 15 school breakfasts. And, a lot has changed in school nutrition. I've grown the organization. I've grown, you know, moved up from being a director to a VP to the COO and eventually the CEO. And, you know, I could go anywhere and do what I do, conferences, advocacy, you know, websites, communications, but it's a great mission and great people and a great purpose in feeding the youth of America. So -

Bill Sheehan (01:53):

Yeah.

Patti Montague (01:53):

I have no regret.

Bill Sheehan (01:54):

And you've done a great job, Patti. I, I've known you for, for a while. In fact, way back in the day when I first got my start, or probably around this time you did, I was with the National Confectioners Association.

Patti Montague (02:06):

I remember that.

Bill Sheehan (02:07):

Yeah, that School Nutrition to National Confectioners, sometimes wasn't always the easiest transition, but I've seen that organization grow and so, be so innovative and kind of be, you know, the, really the voice of that, the, the school nutrition industry and its impact. And you've done a remarkable job. You've been through it all, and you've seen so many changes, that have happened, you know, in the association space and having to adapt, so quickly. , we've seen the advent of, the internet and social media, now it's AI and so forth. And I remember back in the day when the fax machine was the greatest use of technology. And so it's been a very, very interesting ride. And, and congratulations on a remarkable career. I know you're still doing great things there. Thank you. So thanks again for being on the show.

(02:58):

Just from your perspective, and I know you and I travel quite a bit, you, you participate in, in other association events outside of School Nutrition Association. And just from your perspective, what are you seeing, like, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that are facing associations today? And, and how is School Nutrition Association kinda adapting and trying to stay ahead on that?

Patti Montague (03:23):

Sure. So I'd like to say, where do we begin with the challenges? I think, you know, coming out of, the pandemic, which we all know is very challenging, I think all of us were hoping that it was gonna get easier. But I think anyone you speak today, you read every article and every paper. It's all about challenges every business is facing today, right? , but for associations, I think one area of a challenge is membership, you know? , and I think I saw something like 48 to 50% of associations saw a decrease in membership. We saw a decrease, because people weren't going to s - kids were in schools, right? They basically, in America, you shut down schools for year, year and a half. And so, many people are working in the school environment, maybe we had some older members who didn't wanna, you know, expose themselves to, because our members started feeding kids right away, right?

(04:13):

Mm-hmm. Everything closed down on Friday and Monday, they were at curbside feeding. , but our membership, you know, bounced back. It's the directors, the people who are running, you know, administering the programs, but where we're seeing staffing challenges our members are facing because of the turnover. There's not enough people for those lower paying jobs. If you, you know, go into your local town and you look at all the service and the service businesses that are out there in our service economy, and we're competing with that. So how do you ensure that there's enough people to work in the field and the constant need to retrain? So for us to retrain our members because of that. , obviously all associations, the business model needs to change. You know, we used to publish a magazine 11 times a year and made $2 million in print advertising.

(04:59):

Well, that plmeted like everyone else. So, you know, we, we switched and focused on digital, and I'm very proud to say we still publish a magazine. Not a lot of associations do that, but we, we went to, six times a year, and it's still going strong. But we're trying to continue to innovate in those ways. One of the biggest challenges I think many are facing is that a lot of for-profit companies are now trying to replicate what associations have done because of technology. And so that's a challenge. , you know, and sometimes,- you know, how do you explain that to someone? Like, when you do stuff for a s - you know, if you sponsor something or do from the association, we use that money to reinvest in the members. But, you know, there's so many out there that are doing it. And so that's a big challenge.

(05:43):

But again, we are trying to keep up and by, you know, implementing technology, we revising, looking at revising our membership model, constantly looking at what we need to do to be able to competitive and serve our members because, they're facing many challenges, just like everyone else, every other business. So, and adapting to that, I think it's critical to the survival of associations today.

Bill Sheehan (06:05):

Yeah, you're, that's, that's. I think you've hit the nail on the head that, that this, this whole new technology and kind of the, a very hyper-competitive market now for all associations, right? They're competing against companies, particularly in the learning space. They're competing with companies as that's all they do, is learning, and they, they wanna provide it to your members. Whereas you have other things you got to do, government affairs, advocacy, public relations, research, the event, right? Just to name a few things on how associations - Yeah. Really, I believe, are the, the true single source of truth. They're the credible foundation by which standards have been based. And I'm wondering if, you're trying to, to create that, that differentiator within the marketplace. I- is it hard from a learning standpoint or even from, from other, aspects of saying, "Hey, the School Nutrition Association is the standard, right?

(07:06):

This is who, this. We have set those standards." But you have all those other companies out there saying, "Ah, you don't need to belong to an association, right? We can do it for you cheaper," and the like. Are you kinda seeing that at a certain, like, a younger career age versus the members who have been with SNA for, say, 10, 10, 12 years? Are they still renewing, or are you starting to see a drop-off across all the demographic makeup?

Patti Montague (07:32):

Thankfully, we are seeing younger people joining.

Bill Sheehan (07:35):

That -

Patti Montague (07:35):

You know, we have a lot of people that maybe started out, like, you know, registered dieticians that maybe went and started out in the clinical side who found schools and see, you know, obviously, you know, I talked about a mission-based organization focused on our members who feed kids, but the people then who see that they're having a direct, impact on kids and what they're eating in this country. So I think for younger, altruistic, that younger generation, millennials, Gen Z, they really like that, and that's important to them. So in being part of a community, I think that's one of the differentiators, and that's why having, you know, you know, webinars or abilities for people to get on and engage and coffee chats and things like that, I think people really want that, and they want to learn from one another.

(08:24):

There are know, big challenges out there, and I think it's important if this association also to give, that the members can then, like, for instance, in schools, there's 14,700 and some odd school districts, but no one school district is alike. But people who in a large, or very large districts, they have similar challenges, so they wanna be able to meet, or the, you know, small rural districts, and that you're giving them opportunities to do that sort of thing and engage and learn with like-minded people who are facing those same challenges and who, whose learning needs may be the same, I think is how an association, again, is way innovating and finding those ways to, meet members' needs head on.

Bill Sheehan (09:02):

Yeah, and I -

Patti Montague (09:03):

That's really -

Bill Sheehan (09:03):

I'm really glad to hear that. That's why I'm still a big, now, again, I know I'm dating myself, but, but I'm a big proponent of in-person meetings. I often say that associations were the original social network, right? Remember before that that you had to get together, and, and you met, and you learned from each other, and had, you know, coffee chats, and then, you know, in the aisles between booths or, you know, breakout sessions that you really can't get online. And, and that's why I think it's so important, I, you know, to, for the younger generation to understand that still has an impact, right? That can stick. And you, then you develop relationships and, and the like.

Patti Montague (09:45):

It's a different experience, too. Yeah. And we're fortunate coming out of the pandemic. A lot. No, a lot of associations have seen a decrease in attendance at their meetings. Ours, we, we're hitting the highest nbers ever on some of our meetings. Now, this year, we've seen a little bit of a dip. , I think it has to do with the finance, what's going on. Yeah. But first off, you know, obviously, we all see what's happening with, you know, airfares, right? And the cost of travel to get any place, cost of food, hotels, everything is going up. Also, there was a lot of money, money that was pped into school districts during the pandemic and post-pandemic, so that they could afford and,you know, pay for people to come to meetings and stuff. We're kind of seeing a little bit of a pullback right now.

(10:30):

As, you know, from our business, food costs have increased.

Bill Sheehan (10:33):

Yeah.

Patti Montague (10:33):

And the cost of putting on meetings. We've all had to increase our registries, and that's what makes me nervous. How do you keep the meeting affordable that our members could keep coming? That is the big key. And, you know, AV costs, food costs. And it's, that's a challenge going ahead, and I really, I worry about that. But I think people really do get so much more versus, you know, yes, did the virtual meeting work? Does it work for a webinar? But think about during COVID when we were on meetings, you know, you'd have a meeting for three hours, you're there, and you're, then you'd take a break and come back on and stuff. We did it because we didn't have a choice, but I don't think any of us is the way we wanna learn or engage with people.

Bill Sheehan (11:13):

I

(11:13):

I agree. And, the, the one thing I've, I've often found out being, you know, as an association executive and participating with boards of directors, you know, oftentimes, membership and the board don't really understand how expensive it is to run an association. And, I think in this day and age too, it's, I think it's more important and, and I'm gonna ask you to lean on us, but I think the mem - the association has to lean more and more on its suppliers, on its, its sponsors because I feel that we're all in this together and our livelihood depends on it. And so,

(11:55):

they need folks coming to the show, they being the exhibitors and the sponsors. Yep. And I think we have to be more open-minded, and D2L does do this. We have to be more open-minded of, you know, we come to the, the, the directors and the CEOs and say, "How can we help? What can we do? Now, we're already sponsoring, but what else can we do? Because we can't see this fail. Either the organization fail or the event fail." And so I think sponsors are starting to recognize that. And I'm wondering, through the course of all this, you know, where you're starting to see these pains and there's a bit of an angst. You know, how are you rethinking revenue models? I mean, are you, are you starting to say, looking at membership dues and, and I'm telling you, it's a fiduciary responsibility of an association to meet its expenses.

(12:43):

So you can't necessarily reduce member dues or reduce registration fees because those are going to cover the cost of putting the show on. And if we make a little profit, that's great. We put it back into the organization to provide products and services. So are you and the board, are you and the staff -because you have a great staff, Patti.

Patti Montague (13:05):

I do have a great staff.

Bill Sheehan (13:07):

Are you spending some time saying, "Hey, what, what are some strategic innovations or ways?"

Patti Montague (13:07):

Bill Sheehan (13:07):

Patti Montague (13:13):

We've had to. I mean, and, and more like, you know, where you spend your money on and what you do. I mean, one of the things we used to put on a big, instead of an opening event, which I always loved ASAE's opening event, a way of gathering people. Our organization has a closing concert. And of course, I don't have to tell you what it costs to bring anybody, group that you've heard, you know, on the radio or music that we all like to hear. And so this year, we kind of flipped it, and we're having an opening event. And instead of, we're having it, we're going to Charlotte, so we'd have the NASCAR Hall of Fame. There's some costs there, but it's not the same as the staging and the security and the, you know, all the costs you have in bringing, you know, musicians in and, and setting up and et cetera.

(13:54):

But, in our industry, people were more interested in that because once the show, the food show is over, they all get on a plane to go home, right? 'Cause they do these travel country doing shows. Yep. So most of them don't stay. They're happy because we're doing something opening. And I have six sponsors this year, which last year we couldn't get anyone to sponsor because none of them stick around. Right.

(14:14):

But we're, we reduced our costs, so then that's helping us other places where the AV and the other costs are going up. So you're constantly having to rethink and look at putting on a meeting. How do you make it engaging? What. We gonna have some food trucks there and some fun and interesting things for people to do. And then for people to, you know, see each other connect, because sometimes you go to a conference, you know, it's hard. You have conference with four or 5,000 people. You know, how do you, unless you go to certain education sessions, you go to a general session room, how do you connect with everyone? We're hoping that this helps connect people more. And, again, those are the kinds of things we're constantly looking at to see what we can do to innovate our meetings.

Bill Sheehan (14:53):

Yeah. And it varies city by city. I mean, if, if, if no one's put on an event, cities can be expensive. - Yes. You know, and, and we know that. And that's why I think the more and more the board and the vendors can really understand what it's taking to keep our organization going. And I, I believe it's incbent upon them to also promote membership.

Patti Montague (15:19):

Oh,

Bill Sheehan (15:19):

Absolutely.

Patti Montague (15:20):

It's, it's a team, it's a team effort. And we're lucky. Our, you know, our industry people, and I, these are the, they're like our ambassadors because they're the only people in the ecosystem. They're going to schools. They're going to school districts. So they're seeing the members all the time. So I even depend on them to tell me what you're seeing. How's staffing going? What are, you know, what are you, what are the trends? What are you seeing out there? And, and so our industry partners are critical for that. But I think, you know, promoting membership, but what I try to do also, because they don't see our side of the business. Even, you know, my members, they buy food and they employ people and equipment, right? And that, it's their budget is very different than ours and how we make our money. So that's part of our board, new board orientation.

(15:59):

We all go over our budget and explain our funding and how we bring in the money and why we have to charge what we do. And I even use that for our industry partners. I try to explain, you know, we had to increase, but coming out of, the pandemic, we had to go up because their AV and food costs and things are increasing. I think that helps us. So they don't, you know, think we're trying to gouge, because there's people out there who think, well, why are you do - you know, you're just doing this to do it? And I don't have to mention everyone's labor costs coming out of the pandemic, healthcare costs, all those things. So I think it's important that, that all the members understand the cost of running the business and why we have to make the changes. And then, of course, we all know tech costs and AI now.

(16:39):

That's a whole new thing. , you know, I think I was happy when we used to spend four or $500,000 a year on tech. I wish I could say that now, but, you know, it's, it's just getting expensive. And I worry, you know, it all kind of comes together and the budget comes together, but I worry at some point, it's just not gonna be affordable anymore.

Bill Sheehan (17:00):

So - Yeah. And I've talked to a bunch of associations across different verticals, you know, from food, healthcare, construction, engineering. And it's it's kind of, consistent across. Everyone's seeing that, the decrease. And I, and I think one of the reasons may be is that, yes, costs are going up. Food costs, like you said, hotel, airfares and like. What's not going up is their salary or the budgets. It's very, very complicated. And I think a natural default is to say, you know, the board's gonna say, "Hey, Patti, why don't we think about doing something hybrid? Or let's think about doing something on a digital format." Which, by and large, is fine, but it doesn't create that same level of impact that being in person can. And that's why I think it's gonna be incbent upon the vendor community, the exhibitors, and suppliers to help offset those costs even more than they're doing now.

(18:03):

Yeah. And -

Patti Montague (18:04):

Well, we've been fortunate, you know, we have a foundation. So some of our, industry have stepped up and have sponsored scholarships. So, and, you know, for our annual conference, I think I'd probably give out, oh, 50, 60 scholarships that range in, from anything from 1,000 up to $2,000. That really could help, you know, but we're having industry sit up up and sponsor kind of scholarships for meetings, which is really, really helpful. We are very appreciative that they're doing that kind of thing, because it also shows that they're investing in people's futures.

Bill Sheehan (18:34):

, and I

Patti Montague (18:35):

Think that younger, we get younger people to come to the conferences as well. So we're happy to see that.

Bill Sheehan (18:40):

And, and Patti, the School of Nutrition Association also had, I mean, there's the national, but then there's also at the state level, right? Like New York and some others, right? Yep.

Patti Montague (18:50):

Yep. They all have conferences too.

Bill Sheehan (18:51):

Yeah. And I'm sure they're probably feeling that same pinch.

Patti Montague (18:55):

They really are. And it's, it's tough. And you know what's really interesting? Because our meetings always over a weekend because, right, people who work in schools have to be there. So the, you know, there's always over the weekend. But those industry suppliers who are bringing younger salespeople, those younger people don't want to travel on weekends.

Bill Sheehan (19:14):

Yeah.

Patti Montague (19:14):

Oh. They don't wanna be away. So that, I'm like, wow. And like, it's something you and I grew up with, right? Yo did it. You had a meeting, you went on a weekend. It was part of it. They're not willing to do it. And and then, you know, school districts are cutting back. Or even people are looking for more balance. You know, that's another thing coming out of the pandemic. People. It's not this go-go, go constant. And even we, one of the things we did, but nobody really used it, but we had, like, a wellness room, so if somebody needed to get away and step away. In fact, we had put a sign in the door. It's not for people to get on cell phone calls. <laugh> Right? It's for people to, to go there and to sort of, get a minute or two by themselves and, and relax.

(19:54):

And, you know, you're doing all these things because people are really, I think, you know, the stress that we have, you know, every day because of what's happening in our world that is spinning and spinning. And for a lot of people, you know, they, they need that time to take a break and step away. And so, again, these are all things that every company in America is dealing with.

Bill Sheehan (20:15):

 Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and are you seeing any desire or, the membership asking for more, like, everyone's talking about this digital transformation. Are they saying, "Hey, we'd like to see, you know, the School of Nutrition be more digital, be more online, be more virtual."

Patti Montague (20:37):

You know, we've done. First, we do webinars, and we're very highly successful at webinars, but our members don't pay for webinars because there's so many, advocacy organizations and other, you know, nonprofits that work in child nutrition, obviously, want to promote, you know, whether it's a hunger organization or a wellness organization. And so we don't charge for those. So, you know, we always have done webinars. , we've, we've introduced advocacy's big in our world because we get federal funding is what feeds the, the kids in this country. You know, United States spend about $25 billion a year in feeding, kids in schools around the country. And so our members at, we need them to go and advocate, go to the hill, you know promote their programs to senators and congressmen. So we've introduced these advocacy and action, updates monthly we're doing.

(21:29):

We never did this monthly. You know, we did it, like, once a year, but when we released our position paper. But we're getting people coming. They love to hear what's happening and we're doing things like that. But the whole digital thing is hard. , recently had a member say, you know, due to the increase in cost because of, you know, the war and, are you gonna be having a virtual component to your annual meeting? Well, one, I don't have the staff to do that. We did that when we opened our first conference in January 2022. , the pandemic was just happening, and the Omnicron virus had, was just, you know, over the holidays, if you remember everything exploded over the holidays that year. We had to go forth with our conference because the hotel wouldn't let us out. We would've lost $800,000 because right then the pandemic was over.

(22:15):

We were afraid that we might have to cancel it. So we prepared that we recorded pre-sessions and then hosted the next week coming out of the conference. We had a virtual version of the conference. And let me tell you something, that was a lot for, you know, a small staff. But then I only had, like, 40 people on staff because I had to make some, reductions in force during the pandemic. But the cost to, put on a conference virtually with a full in-person meeting that has 7,500 people are so costly, that my members don't have the money to pay for it.

Bill Sheehan (22:53):

Right.

Patti Montague (22:54):

They don't. They simply. And, you know, you feel bad and people, you have to look at the economics of being able to do something like that. And I would love to say we could do it. And also, when we did a virtual conference, annual conference where we had exhibitors, online exhibitors, our members didn't like it. We did it, and we didn't make a lot of money, but we, at least, we put something on, and people didn't like it. And part of it is people working in schools. You know, they constantly, you know, they're prepping the food in the morning, and then they got to feed. And if, you know, you've got people in the East, middle of the country, and the West Coast, the time during the day, what's the best time to do it? So there's all kinds of challenges in doing it.

(23:32):

But, you know, we are doing more digitally, a lot of, putting, you know, a lot of information on the web, toolkits, things like that, producing materials, our magazine, whatever we can do. What we're having success, and you're probably doing this, is we're starting to record all the sessions. And giving a meeting smary coming out of the session, and people just love that. And now we wanna take all this sessions and content to create new training based on the different sessions we're having as the next area where we're gonna be exploring, in the coming months, so.

Bill Sheehan (24:09):

And I was gonna say, too, are you seeing. One of the things we're seeing as you might know, D2L is a very large presence in the K-12 community, as well as in the associations. And, and one of the things we're seeing through some surveys that, we're not conducting, but we're, we're looking at, is that, education or advancing one's career is one of the main reasons they want to join an organization to get started. Right? And particularly that younger generation. I think when I was getting into the industry, I wanted to go there, the network to meet, right? Now, I think there's a bit of a shift where they want to be trained properly. They want to get the badges or the certifications or the micro-credentialings. Yes. Are, do you, are you s, do you, are you doing a lot of that now at SNA throughout the year?

Patti Montague (25:01):

Yeah. We have a credentialing program, which we actually just moved our exam online. , we moved to Pearson View. Our, we used to have hosted at our conferences or at state conferences, and so we moved that online because of that younger generation. We have more people. And it's cheaper for them in having to having to travel someplace. They can go and take, you know, take the tests and so on and so forth. So we're doing that. But we are finding, yes, people want to learn more. The it's the education, it's the learning, any HR survey you see is what employees, yes, we all want a decent salary, but people want that professional development. Again, I think, you know, let's face it, we're all hearing about AI and what it could do to jobs and stuff. I think people want, you know, to learn those skills and diversify their skills and be the best they can be.

(25:49):

And let's face it, there's a many more opportunities today than when you and I first started out in this industry, so.

Bill Sheehan (25:54):

Yeah. Good

Patti Montague (25:55):

For them.

Bill Sheehan (25:56):

One, one of the things we're seeing from a lot of associations and, you know, through our K-12 and, and even higher ed is upskilling. And so upskilling is so important because what's happening, particularly with AI, is the industries are looking for someone to take that lead, right? To say, "Show me where the future's going and what do I need to know within my industry to be successful, particularly AI." And I think they're looking for the association to be that person, but yet associations are saying, "Hey, we're still trying to figure it out too, as an organization and how best to do that." But I, we're starting to see, and, and, and this is interesting, that learning and education is really a strategic driver. In other words, this is something that says, "Hey, we are that..." How does the school nutrition, what, I mean, how do you, kind of position yourself within the industry?

(26:49):

'Cause I think other associations say, "How do we establish ourselves as the standard, as that single source of truth?" , how do you, and that, I guess...

Patti Montague (26:58):

We always say we're the voice of school nutrition, right? We say we are in various ways. And, you know, people would think you're going, you know, we're, we feed kids, so people would think, well, your, your, education programs is maybe about nutrition or food safety. But one of the most successful meetings we have is what we call our school nutrition industry conference. And we've had, and this past year, we had speakers come on AI, you know? And, and talk about the future and doing things like that, because I feel like we have a responsibility. You know, they know that stuff, right? They can, you know, they could go online and, you know, and we do provide training on all that as well. But what they need to see is how the world is changing and what's going on latest in technology and what is happening out there and what's the future hold.

(27:45):

And, you know, we found a lot of success with that. And people that, especially the younger generation, the technology and stuff, they want that high level, next level speaker.

Bill Sheehan (27:54):

Yeah.

Patti Montague (27:54):

You know, and you combine it with, you know, subject matter experts. So you, then you parent, you get some members who are using AI or using social media to promote their operations and drive participation in school meals. It's, it's a business. At the end of the day, they're running businesses just like I am. And, you know, they have to cover their expenses. They're supposed to cover their expenses, so they have to drive that participation. Yes, they get, you know, kids, families who can't afford, to pay for school meals. There's, you know, school free meals for kids, but they're also, they need to have the paying student as well to be able to cover the expenses. Again, food costs, labor costs, everything is increasing for these programs as well. So, we find members, you know, the young, especially that younger generation and our industry members really are looking for high level, speakers, on a vast majority in, of topics and things that are happening out there in the world.

Bill Sheehan (28:49):

Yeah. Do, do you, as an organization, does your education come, outside of member dues? In other words, are you charging for courses and what, certification in it?

Patti Montague (28:59):

We charge some for courses. You know, we, we actually did like everybody else. Like when you go to your annual conference, you pick out 20 sessions that are really, you think are really popular topics and record and you spend like $20,000. You do all the editing and then you turn around and put it out there. And people don't want it. They're not willing to spend our money because they don't have the, you know, there's only so much a school district has. So, you know, we want them to pay money on, you know, our memberships and pay money to come to our big conferences and things like that. Plus, again, there are so many other, people out there that are offering free education. Or an industry person, you know, is producing some, doing some education, working with chefs and, you know, different things like that to highlight their projects, products, so.

Bill Sheehan (29:44):

Yeah. The reason I ask that is, I've been seeing that too. We, we, have, we go across the country and do little, get togethers with association executives talking about challenges and opportunities. And, and one of them has been the fact that they feel that they have to give away everything for free. Because they wanna keep the membership, right? But, and that's when we have the discussions of, you know, nonprofit doesn't mean free, righBecause we do have, typically, you know, associations are funded, you know, through, through initially through member dues, but that's to keep staff and, and rent and all the insurance you need to run it so that you can produce these wonderful products and services to advance your industry. But those cost. And, and so one of the things, we've been seeing is members saying, "How do we go from zero, like charging nothing, to either bundling or providing some educational, assets, beyond the membership dues?

(30:41):

Because that does cost us money and we kinda have to recuperate that so we can continue to provide that." And there's been surveys, I don't know if you know Jeff Cobb from Tagoris, but he does a wonderful - Yep. He does some great,

(30:53):

 - He

Patti Montague (30:53):

Does.

Bill Sheehan (30:54):

, research. And one of the ones, that, that he was doing, you know, talking about kind of the learning becoming more of a strategy than a program. And when it's a strategy, you know, it evolves every aspect of the organization. You know, within the school, within your organization, School of Nutrition Association, is everyone. And I know it's tough, because it, it was tough for me, but is everyone kind of all part of the, you know, understanding the value that learning plays within our organization and everything we do must have a little bit of that learning?

Patti Montague (31:28):

I, I think so. Well, we have a strategic framework and it's one of our four areas of focus, you know, is, is professional development learning. So yes, it is. It's, like you said, you know, you do wanna charge, but you got to what's that, what's that price point that's gonna work, that's, that's gonna be affordable, but you also got to look at the cost. It's budgeting time, right? So we're sitting here and, someone said, "Oh, we saw this new cool thing we wanna do, blah, blah, blah," that. And I said, "Well, what is the cost though? And is, does the cost justify it or, or is the, what we're using currently gonna do it?" That's, that's the key now, I think, all of us have to look at, because how much, you know, certain technologies cost a lot more money, and you got to look at what the price of the product and what you're gonna be able to provide the member at that certain price point.

(32:15):

So, you know, like everybody else, we have to look at the overall cost of producing this stuff.

Bill Sheehan (32:19):

Yeah, and what, what, what oftentimes members and board members often sometimes forget is that when you launch something new, you're also reallocating staff time away from something else, and that costs money. That person's being paid. And so we have to take all that into consideration. And that's why I think sometimes it's important for boards to say, "Hey, it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of revenue to keep SNA going or whatever your organization is. So you have to understand that things are gonna start going up because, again, nonprofit doesn't mean free. It's just a tax status, not a business model."

Patti Montague (32:58):

I think it's important also for boards. Like, we, you know, we have. If we're doing something new, we go and that money comes out of reserve. We say reserves is there, yes, God forbid, that rainy day. Oh,

(33:08):

Yeah. But that's our R&D fund as well. So the, the board have to, you know, you try to explain in a for-profit world, you know, think of all the new product testing and things that go on, but something may never make it to market. We don't have that luxury. Whatever we do is gonna go to market, right? But it may not take, right? You're gonna have to test it, and then at some point, if it's not, you know, people aren't purchasing it and they're not finding it useful, then you're gonna have to cut it. You're gonna have to cut the strings and say, "Okay, this is not gonna work." But I think it's important as part of your strategic, discussions with the board that they understand that. Yeah. Otherwise, they get, you know, you could get yourself into some trouble. I think you need to be very transparent with the board, even about the costs and everything and, you know, what it takes to run the organization.

(33:54):

I go back to that. , sometimes they say, somebody asked me, "Are you, do you, . Is your goal to make money every year? 'Cause we're a nonprofit." I said, "Well, you know, we have to make money, yes, because we have to be able to reinvest in the business. You just can't, you know, come in, you know, you're a 14 and a half million dollar organization and just hope to make $10,000 a year - Yeah. Because you need to have the money down the road." And of course, during the pandemic, it's what got us through. We were lucky because we had the right, right insurance. We had bought the insurance to cover our meetings when they got canceled. , but, you know, we had good. We didn't have to take a lot of money out of reserves. We had to make some cuts on staff, but we got through it.

(34:39):

But I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know, you are, you know, you're a business, and no matter what business you're in today, your cost is so high that you have to, do have to factor in to make a profit in order to reinvest in the company, and to keep up with what's happening out there, in the world today.

Bill Sheehan (34:58):

Yeah, and that's, it's, it's maddening at times, I think, for staff, particularly, you know, those who are, working with the board and so forth, because the fact is that do you wanna work with an organization that is not making money, you know, is just breaking even? Because then you can't grow, right? You could, right? There becomes a bit of a fiduciary responsibility of board members to take a more active role. And we're starting to actually see, you know, in working with boards, because when an organization is looking at a learning management system, sometimes they wanna bring the board in, not or they, at least some of the folks on the executive committee, just to make sure - Because it's a big investment. You know, like, and, and they're starting to look at that.

(35:41):

And one of the things that they're asking too is, "Hey, will this..." And I'm, I've been saying, "I want to take the word relevant out of my vocabulary for this year and use impact." Is, you know, we always wanted the association to be relevant, but are you making an impact? And I think one of the best ways to make impact is learning. And I don't mean this by just taking a course, but learning is going to the annual event and talking with people over lunch. You're learning what's happening in their industry. And are, are you trying to see that? I mean, are, are you seeing that right now that, that learning or education is going to be that impactful type of offering that we as an organization need to really promote more and more of and dedicate more and more resources to?

Patti Montague (36:34):

Well we are, and I do think so, yes. Especially since people are feeling, again, they're worried about their jobs, right? So what better way than especially, and, I think even teaching members about AI. And how AI, how they can use next, what I would like to see us start looking, focusing on in the coming months is how AI, they can use AI to help them. Just like, you know, we all could, you know, I could use another 15 people on staff if I could afford them, right? Same thing in schools, right? And there's just so much demand out there, but teaching them how to use AI, I think is really, important. So whatever we can do, but I think, again, promoting this constant, you know, you look at how quickly technology. And even, like, what is it? They said a year ago,

(37:22):

you know, people here in DC know about AI and how much, how far it's come. And, and I think it's a little scary, right? At how quickly the pace is and learning and, and everything that's evolving with AI. But I think more important than ever, and especially to get staff. And I think, quite honestly, I have a fiduciary duty to ensure my staff is getting trained in AI. 'Cause I worry about, you know, we, we introduced Copilot and at first, you know, we're saying, you know, you could opt in. And, we put out a, the opt-in notice, opt-in, opt-out right before the holiday, and we came back, and they said to me, "Well, we had, you know, how many people signed up?" And they said, "Well, about 14 or 15 didn't." And I got, you know, I feel like, "Why, why didn't somebody sign up?" I go, "That's not right.

(38:07):

You need to go double check with people." You know, I think they were busy trying to get everything, because we closed down between Christmas and New Year's. So they wanted to get everything done before the, you know, closing down. Because I worry, especially for that younger generation, we owe it to them so that they will be able to, especially people like coordinator level and stuff .That they'll be able to be, have the skillsets to be employed that they can continue to grow. So I feel not just for our members, but I feel an obligation to my staff that we have to help them do that as well.

Bill Sheehan (38:35):

I think, that's so nice to hear, because oftentimes, you know, we've seen some statistics that are showing a lot of churn within the association space of staff leaving. And, and no one really understands if, if you have a staff at 10, I know you have a larger staff now, but if you have a staff at 10 and two people leave, you've lost 20% of your staff. And just - Big, big thing. Trying to replace them is not easy, because that moment that they've created, it almost takes a year, a year and a half just to catch up to, to where they were.

Patti Montague (39:02):

Yeah. It really does. Although I will say, you know, as you know, coming out of the pandemic, people were hiring like crazy. Oh, yeah. And you couldn't find people. This is the first time in six years I'm almost fully staffed. I have one position that's about to be filled. I have not been fully staffed even before COVID. We couldn't find people in the DC region. It's just so competitive .

Bill Sheehan (39:24):

Yeah.

Patti Montague (39:25):

In our field, as you know, and other, a lot of larger associations. But it's definitely starting to turn, but I do think it's, again, you need to keep. If you wanna keep good people, you got to keep, train them. You got to provide them professional development, and you, you got to keep them challenged. And I think, with AI, and it's, you know, a lot of people, in fact, today are, I just got back from vacation, in Europe. So I, I'm a little bit wa- waking up a little bit too early and I'm still on Europe time. So I was found myself reading the, the Wall Street Journal this morning very early in bed and, on my, my iPad. And the, the backlash against AI, I, I, I get it. But I, I just think, you know, I think maybe the government or someone has to do, to educate people more on what the opportunities and what it can mean, in our lives.

(40:18):

And I think nobody's really doing a good job at that. Even all these AI companies are spending money. They got to do a better job because I do think it really can do a lot for our country and for, for young people

Bill Sheehan (40:30):

Today. Oh, I, I agree. In fact, Financial Times had a statistic that says job skills have changed 25% since 2015, right? So that - Oh, wow. Now they're saying it's gonna, they're gonna change by 65%, almost two thirds within the next four years by 2030. And a lot of that's gonna be due to AI, right? And I think, and, and we, and, and I know the younger generation says, "Yeah, blah, blah, blah. I've heard this before." We saw the web come into a d - being a disruptor within the association space. Oh,

Patti Montague (41:02):

Yes.

Bill Sheehan (41:03):

And I remember, and I was one of them say, you know, thinking, "No one's gonna buy, put their credit card online to buy the registration. They're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna wanna, they're not gonna wanna miss a meeting because they could do it over the computer. And look at what's happened over that. And I think with AI, it's gonna be exponentially faster.

Patti Montague (41:22):

That's, I was just what you. Yes, it is. It already is. It's just trying to, you know, and, and for someone like me who has, you know, with all the responsibilities, I play, you know, I go in, I use AI, but I'm not real good at going and doing the copilot training. <laugh> In fact, I, I got to do a little bit of that this week. I'm a little behind in doing it. I just started using it and finding ways to use it, but probably I'd be better off if I did some of the copilot training, so.

Bill Sheehan (41:47):

Yeah, that's, that's the thing to, , and again, I think that that fear is waning a little bit, that AI can replace me. What it can replace is mundane tasks that can make you more efficient - Yes. , and more effective. And I think that it can. It's also as a catalyst, accelerator. It helps you think differently. But it can't have the conversation with your member. Right? That's true. And, and it might be able to anticipate certain things based on data, but it's not gonna replace the han in - interactions that I think members come to, appreciate and expect. It'll just, it can maybe enhance it a little bit. And, and this kinda touches on something that there's this buzzword out there, this future-proofing of associations. I don't know how you future-proof, but you're trying to look ahead and say, you know, we, we wanna be on, you know, the top of the technology wave, or here's where the future's going.

(42:48):

And, and we're trying to remain impactful, not real, but impactful. I, it is a lot, is. I'm sure there's some strategy thinking of not only are we doing the day-to-day stuff here at SNA, but we're trying to say, "This is where we kinda see the future going with AI as it relates to school nutrition. And we just wanna inform our, our members that this is coming." Are you, are you doing some of that to try and be a little bit forward thinking, which is difficult?

Patti Montague (43:14):

We have some sessions. We have some sessions planned for our coming conferences coming, and our speakers are gonna touch on a little bit of that, paid speakers. But, we're starting now to plan for our meeting in January, my industry conference, which is it, we call it the industry conference because it's, you know, basically innovative. It's kind of the innovation meeting we have every year for the K-12. When I say industry, it's the K-12 segment. Mm-hmm. And, I think we're gonna have to focus on that and, and do a little bit, a better job at that to help people. You know, you see a lot of stuff, you know, in restaurants, and you see what's happening. Like, you know, they're weighing plates or have sensors because at the food costs, it, you know, if they can weigh a plate, and if it's over so many ounces, they know they have too much food on the plate.

(43:58):

I don't s - or robots or - Yeah. You know, salad makers or something in schools. I don't see that kind of technology hitting schools so quickly because of the cost. They just don't have the money. , schools need money to buy, more equipment. You know, the equipment, let's basically all buy, buy a refrigerator, dryer. They're not lasting 20 years anymore, right? Same thing, same thing in schools. And then, and then I hear that about the cost to have anybody even walk in the door to fix something today, what they have to pay. Again, more cost, you know, coming to their business. But, you know, that adaption is gonna come. But I think we have an obligation to bring to them, and to teach them and show them how to, you know, streamline what they do. You know, a lot, they have a lot of manual.

(44:42):

Every job, let's face it, every job has all those manual tasks, and, we have an obligation to help them, to make their jobs more manageable. These people's jobs, I think about over the last 15 years, the changes, and, you know, driving to have healthier meals, and, you know, just, you know, applications, you know, for kids to have to fill out an application to get approved to get a free meal, and just all the regulations and stuff. Minutia is what I call, right, really.

(45:11):

The AI and things that could help streamline those processes, that they could really focus in. You know, some of my members get into it and love to go into the cafeteria and see the kids and, you know, interact with their staff, but they're tied to their desks because of the, all that administrative work that all of us have in our jobs. Right. I think that's where AI can really help streamline a lot of that.

Bill Sheehan (45:35):

Yeah, so it's Monday. You, you know, one of the other things, too, that, I, I think might be an opportunity for associations, and maybe SNA is doing this, but do, do you know when, you know, a- a- all association from the staff standpoint, we always wanna make sure, "Hey, our LMS is working fine. Our members love the engagement. They give it high marks, and there's a high completion rate." That's great. And so the staff is like, "Hey, we've done it. This is great." But are you actually tracking the impact that learning and education, that certification is helping in their career as they go on, the personal aspect? Because I think what happens is some, most associations I've talked to say, "No, we don't. We don't track that."

Patti Montague (46:14):

We have not. Yeah. Only by people's testimonies. You know, it's a great story, especially you hear people who, you know, started out working in a kitchen, maybe as a, somebody who was a mother, single mother, or mother started working part-time, four hours, and then they rise up and, you know, they have to take certain food safety and nutrition courses. But you could, you know, rise up and it's, you know, even at a small school district, you might not have a full four-year degree, but you could get a, a pretty nice, you know, job. In the community working and feeding kids. That can still happen today. , and I think, again, I think the kind of learning and education that an association can put out and provide could really be valuable, es- especially when you look at the cost of what to go to colleges today.

(47:00):

Many people, younger people, they're wondering, is that really a good investment for me to be spending all this money to go to college where I think will be an opportunity for associations moving forward?

Bill Sheehan (47:10):

Oh, I think so too, because not only that, but you're taking on a, a rather large debt that can take tens, not 20 years to pay off, and I think they're starting to look at more effective learning and educational experiences where I can get a certification in advance without having to spend an enormous amount of money.

Patti Montague (47:32):

Absolutely. And

Bill Sheehan (47:33):

That's where I think associations are uniquely positioned. And maybe I'm, I don't know, looking through rose-colored glasses, but I'm a huge proponent of, you know, associations being designed and will always be designed to protect, promote, and advance an industry. Because we have the subject matter experts in there, and they're promoting that too. And so I, I just think too, that start, one of the shifts that are starting to happen is we're all in this together. Now, it used to be, it was like the board and the staff, and we moved forward, and then the suppliers would, you know, come along and be that now we're all in this together. We don't wanna see anything fail. And I think it's incbent upon the board of directors, not the staff so much anymore, to really promote the goodness of the organization and the critical nature it has.

(48:22):

And the, and the products and services an association has, like, learning. You can trust this information because it's vetted, it's complete, and it's trusted before we send it out. These other, you know, some of these other competitive companies aren't, you can't. How do you know that's the standard of probably stealing from SNA to provide those standards? So just in, in closing, Patti, and this, that's, this has been one of the fastest hours of the month. , where, where do you kinda see, you know, SNA as, as, as its role in, in, in, particularly serving this younger generation and helping them, kinda guiding them through the industry, and, and, and the, the, the aspects that, that an organization should provide, such as learning and networking and research and the like? H- how, how is, how is SNA really gonna position itself in the next three to five years to say, "We are that single source of truth"?

Patti Montague (49:18):

I think it, it's, you know, we have an obligation. I think it's a fiduciary obligation as whether it's, you know, a staff person or the board, to provide that for people that, you know, wanna come in, especially given the nature of the work. They're gonna, they're responsible for feeding, you know, our nation's future. And if you read in the news about make America healthy again, most Americans believe in healthier, eating healthier food. And, there's a new dietary guidelines of pyramid, you know, pyramid's been flipped, right? Yep. Everybody's reading and hearing about that. Well, they are now the first place where people are gonna start seeing that. , some new proposed rules are gonna be coming out from, USDA, and, my members will have to implement those. Once the rule's finalized, it's probably, you know, in the next year and a half, two years.

(50:04):

But preparing them to be able to do that. And like you said, saying you're the trust, you're the trusted source of information to ensure that you're continuing to feed kids these healthy meals so they could, you know, learn and to be, you know, nurture them and help them learn and be the best they can be. Well,

Bill Sheehan (50:23):

I'll tell you what, it's, we're at the end, but I do wanna thank you. I had three children go through the, the school district, and they all, they all ate very healthy, never got sick, so I can't thank you enough for you and your members for making my, children's, day at school a little bit more healthy and invigorating. You've been listening to Learning by Association, a podcast where we delve into the ever-evolving world of associations and the challenges they face in navigating the currents of change. This episode was produced by D2L, a global learning innovation company helping organizations reshape the future of education and work. To learn more about our solutions, please visit www.d2l.com, and don't forget to subscribe so you can stay up to date with new episodes. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.