The Alimond Show

Paige & Dave Fishel - Pioneering Neurofeedback and Psychotherapy for Tailored Mental Health Treatment

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When Paige Fishel transitioned from psychiatric work to founding Paige Fishel and Associates Neurofeedback and Psychotherapy with her husband David Fishel, a former trial attorney turned psychotherapist, they embarked on a mission to change lives. Their practice, a beacon of hope in the mental health field, shines a light on innovative treatments for those grappling with the complexities of modern stress, anxiety, depression, and ADHD. Their story, an intertwining journey of personal and professional growth, sets the stage for this fascinating episode where we traverse the terrain of mental health through the lens of seasoned experts.

Imagine a world where ADHD and trauma are managed without medication, where brain function improves through consistent training, much like how we train our muscles. That's the reality Paige and David Fishel present through their compelling comparison of neurofeedback to physical exercise, illustrating a path to emotional resilience and stability in trauma patients without the crutch of pharmaceuticals. Their discussion provides a glimpse into the transformative power of combining neurofeedback with psychotherapy, offering a holistic approach that has enabled many to recalibrate their lives.

In a time when personalization is key, the Fishel emphasize that one size does not fit all in mental wellness. Our conversation ventures into the importance of tailoring treatment to individual needs, integrating nutritional factors, and fostering collaboration among diverse professionals. Their practice is a testament to the power of comprehensive care, where the potential for reducing dependency on medication is a hopeful horizon for those willing to embrace lifestyle changes alongside neurofeedback therapy. Join us as we unlock the door to a more personalized, holistic approach to mental health with our esteemed guests, Paige and David Fishel.

Speaker 1:

Paige Fischel is my name.

Speaker 2:

I'm David Fischel.

Speaker 1:

We're married. The business is Paige Fischel and Associates Neurofeedback and Psychotherapy, so it's a mental health practice.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And how do you serve your clients. So I started. What 30 years ago?

Speaker 2:

Something like that.

Speaker 1:

Working for a psychiatrist and then I went into private practice on my own in 2007. And so we see people from mental health issues, so we serve people with anxiety, depression, trauma, adhd, just general stress of the modern life. I guess I'd say, yeah, psychotherapy, neurofeedback, hypnosis, breath work.

Speaker 3:

I think that about covers it. Yeah. Categories a lot of categories, yeah and, like I said that, the stress of the modern world these things are so much different.

Speaker 1:

These days, oh my goodness, so different. It's really impacted people. And we now I have Dave, so I was on my own for many, many years and Dave was an attorney, a trial attorney, and like I, can I mean, if we look back like 10 years ago and think we'd be sitting here and Dave's now a therapist in my practice.

Speaker 3:

We'd be like no way. How did you refer to him earlier as a recovering, recovering attorney, I told?

Speaker 1:

I said she's a recovering trial attorney because, it's just such a different thing from what we do um. But in 2018, dave thought he was going to retire for a nice, peaceful retirement and you know, like do art and gardening.

Speaker 3:

And he had other plans for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then he did some other things for a while and then during the pandemic I said let's get trained in neurofeedback. Why don't you do this with me? It's really interesting, it's the latest in brain training and it's kind of the new frontier. And so he did, and I also, during the pandemic, had a wait list that got so long I had to close it. So I was in practice by myself, had a six-month wait list and then I finally just closed it and I couldn't find another therapist and I was like you know, dave, why don't you do some nerve feedback in the practice? I kind of like eased him into it. So he was my lab tech for a while and then I talked to him into going back to graduate school.

Speaker 2:

And now he's, and here I am, and here he is, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, the other part of that genesis was that Paige had been working with a lot of people with trauma and that takes a real toll on the therapist, and so she was looking at other modalities in addition to talk therapy. And there were some books that had come out the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk and some others and some of these other technologies were starting to kind of emerge as useful for people who suffer trauma. And so she looked at a couple of different ones and said this neurofeedback stuff seems interesting, and since I wasn't really intimidated by the computer aspect of it and I'd always been interested in mental health and the mind and stuff like that, yeah, for my entire life, so it wasn't too hard to talk me into, you know, learning the nuts and bolts of neurofeedback. But then later on it was like well, you know, why don't you get your master's degree and take it to the next level? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So tell me describe to me what neurofeedback is. So neurofeedback is exactly what it sounds like it's a type of biofeedback. So biofeedback many people are familiar with it in heart math or one of the heart rate variability things. You can do it with your watch, right, your Apple Watch, and so just by seeing what your heart is doing, like the rate that it's at, and by maybe doing some breathing, you get feedback in real time about what your heartbeat is like right what the speed of your heart rate is. That's biofeedback. That's biofeedback.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And the type of feedback that you get from that is your pulse, but you get it immediately and it turns out that when you get feedback about what's happening, then you can actually control it more. If you know what your heart rate is and you want it to go down and you breathe a little bit, you can watch it go down and that gives you the reinforcement and it continues to do that.

Speaker 3:

And how did you refer to that as biology?

Speaker 1:

Biofeedback, and so neurofeedback, is just a very specific kind of biofeedback.

Speaker 2:

Where you use the EEG, the electroencephalogram, the normal thing that people might be familiar with from sleep studies or from neurologists. Describe it to me so our listeners know so there's a cap that we use when we want to capture all of the brainwave activity.

Speaker 2:

But then when people are actually training, we identify the areas of the brain that are out of whack. And when people are training, we just put electrodes, which is just a little sensor, on the scalp in the area that we want to train and then they're able to get feedback as to what their brain is actually doing at that time, and so then we can give them reinforcement and rewards when their brain gets into that range that we want it to be in. And if you do that over and over and over again and it happens in you know milliseconds, so because computers are fast enough, now we can do EEG stuff in the office on a computer, on a you know a gaming computer, basically yeah, used to be.

Speaker 1:

You would just have to go to a neurologist to do that.

Speaker 1:

So it's really new for, like a practitioner, to have the computing power to do that. They did it originally just in universities and in hospitals. And an EEG is just a measurement of your brainwave activity, the frequency and the amplitude of your brainwaves. So your brain makes all different kinds of brainwaves all the time, like you know, like the. You know deltas, like, are the slowest waves, like when you're're sleeping, and theta is when maybe you're meditating or daydreaming. And then alpha is when you're kind of in the flow, like right now. We're sort of alpha, a little bit of beta is the faster.

Speaker 1:

Some of the same terms that people look at and then they're looking at like their sleep cycle exactly yes same kind of a concept right, yes, yes, and the brain is just electrical in nature and it's the electrical um, what, what would you say? The electrical activity, basically that drives the chemical activity. So you've probably heard about neurotransmitters, and so very often, like in our business and mental health, people are on some kind of medicine, often for, like, let's say, something like depression or anxiety, but those act at the chemical level, and so this is kind of taking it back a step to the core and and addressing things at the electrical level. Interesting.

Speaker 3:

And what made you want to get into this?

Speaker 1:

So I worked for many, many years seeing you know adults I specialize especially in women with trauma, anxiety, depression or distress like of the modern life and was feeling frustrated with how I think mental health is like this, but very much like our whole medical system is like this in health care, where we kind of boil it down. It's too siloed, like you know, you have a problem, there's a pill for it. You have a problem, there's a pill for it. So there's all these advertisements on tv like if you're depressed, these are the symptoms.

Speaker 3:

They make it sound like and then, if that one's not working, yeah, give you another one.

Speaker 1:

Exactly right, and they make it sound like it's like a thing you know, like depression is like a thing that you could catch like strep throat. Like strep throat we can like take a throat culture and see you have like this bacteria in there and you have strep throat and so there is a medicine for that. But with depression it really is a normal and natural thing. Or someone can be depressed because their thyroid function is really low and they're having mental, emotional symptoms, but because something's not working hormonally.

Speaker 2:

Or they can be depressed because their diet is terrible and their gastrointestinal system is full of, instead of bacteria that make serotonin, which is the happy molecule, it's full of things that have crowded out in that ecosystem, things that are either toxic or that just don't allow you to produce serotonin anymore. So all these things have different effects. Almost everybody thinks of mental illness or mental issues as being this chemical process, and it is. But it's not just a chemical process, as Paige was saying. It's driven by electricity, and so we measure that. I mean, that's what an EEG does, is it measures the electrical? We measure that. That's what an EEG does. It measures the amplitude, that is, how powerful a particular brain wave is, and the frequency how many times a second are those neurons firing?

Speaker 1:

To answer your question. Especially during the pandemic, I was thinking, wow, I see so many people with trauma, for example. There's got to be more than just one way to address this, and talk therapy is one way, but sometimes you have to do what's called a bottom-up modality, where it really works at the subconscious level, not the conscious level, and so the wonderful thing about neurofeedback is that the clients don't have to try. So I was looking for another way to treat people with trauma, and this is an incredibly pleasant way to treat someone with trauma, because you watch a video like anything that you want.

Speaker 1:

You just need to be interested and you can't game the system. So you can't have a bad day and not try hard enough or you can't like do better. It's just completely subconscious. So it's really pleasant to you. Pleasant. They just watch a video, they get the feedback. Their brain starts to change just effortlessly with kind of the feedback that they get, and so they see, when you're in a healthier brainwave pattern, you see the video a little bit more clearly, a little bit brighter.

Speaker 3:

So when they have the what would you call it, the contraption on their head, Electrodes yeah. Yeah, just little. They're watching some sort of a video.

Speaker 2:

Right, they're watching a show. I mean, I have kids that watch SpongeBob, I have adults that watch Korean rom-coms, which I didn't even know existed until then.

Speaker 1:

Right, and it goes sort of from dim to brighter, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It collects. That Can I talk real?

Speaker 1:

quick about this, because this is my thing.

Speaker 2:

So we set up a protocol After we sort of do what we call a brain map and we say, okay, we want to work on these areas, they're out of whack, let's put them back in whack, okay.

Speaker 3:

And you do that.

Speaker 2:

So thin is the mapping, that's right. And then we develop a protocol from that and say okay. So you have a lot of high beta, like very high frequency brain waves in one part of your brain that, for example, controls your motor cortex. So you feel tense all the time because there's just this shrill frequency that is happening All the time Exactly. That's a lot of people all the time.

Speaker 1:

That's me too.

Speaker 2:

So we want to train that down. So by doing that, what we do, is we just it's a well-known technique. You may have heard of it from you know Psych 101 called operant conditioning. So you reward the behaviors that you want to encourage. So basically, they're watching a TV screen that's attached to the software and they're attached so they get this real-time feedback where the screen is darkened it's not completely black, but it's pretty dark and then, when their brain goes into the range that we want to encourage, the screen lightens and that's the reward. And then it darkens again Because our brains change in seconds.

Speaker 3:

So it's actually simply trying to, if I'm saying this incorrectly. But you're almost like frustrating the person, like oh it's dark, I can't see, and now it's light, and now I'm happy because I can see the screen again.

Speaker 1:

You're frustrating, probably the brain, so like they're watching the video and we just want them to forget that they're training and just be interested in the video. But the brain loves a reward, even like in a fraction of a millisecond. So it'll be a little bit dim and then they'll get in a healthier pattern and the brain's like oh, I want more of that. And so when they get in a healthier pattern, the screen brightens a bit and it's pretty.

Speaker 2:

And it's a learning process, right. So the brain learns that when I'm in this you know, when I'm not cranking out this super high shrill beta I tone that back. I get the reward, I get to see my show, and it's on a completely subconscious level, so there's no work to it.

Speaker 1:

Kids love, so we do a lot of. Adhd kids who tried stimulant medication like Ritalin or Adderall or something like that, and it made them anxious, made them lose their appetite. It just wasn't a good long-term solution. And so they come in and train and it's a completely drug-free you know, side effect-free way to help someone with ADHD. They love coming because they come to our office and watch TV twice a week, you know.

Speaker 3:

So that's right, that would be. My next question is how often like so? These are sessions that people are doing.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

How often is this? I'm sure it's on a case by case basis, but it's a treatment plan right, so the average.

Speaker 1:

So the good news is it's like drug free, you know, side effect free and it usually is it's non-invasive. Non-invasive and it's. It usually is non-invasive, non-invasive and it's. The results usually are permanent. You know where we're supposed to say persistent, I guess.

Speaker 2:

According to the fda, but like scientists never say something's permanent, yeah, you stop persistent taking adderall, like for the weekend, like you're right back to your baseline.

Speaker 1:

But if you do neurofeedback long enough, like you maintain your gains. And we have people who have gotten off all their medicines and stayed off Wow, and so it's literally rewiring. It's rewiring your brain, yeah. So that's the good news, but it is. It's like training at the gym, so it takes a while. So the average number of sessions is 40. So you'll train two or three times a week, but it's incredibly pleasant. So kids get to the end of their training. They're doing really well and they don't want to stop training. They're like no, no, no, I need a little more, a little more.

Speaker 2:

I'm not done with season six.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

The other thing that we found at the very beginning with Paige and her trauma patients was talk therapy is grueling for them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, or EMDR, do you know?

Speaker 3:

what that is. I feel like I've heard this, but it refreshed my memory.

Speaker 1:

So it's a way to work with the brain for trauma specifically, where you kind of reprocess trauma, like when someone has a trauma, usually like it's it's not integrated into your brain and so you do these things with their eye movements. Like some people use just their hands, some people use like a special little like machine that looks like a telescope. Anyway, it's very effective but it's very unpleasant if you've had trauma, because what you do is you go through your traumatic memory like step by step, so you relive it over and over again.

Speaker 1:

For like six to eight sessions in a row, you know so it is effective. But a lot of people don't want to do it or drop out after a session or two because it's very it's hard, yeah, after a session or two because it's very it's hard, yeah. So I was like what else could I do to work with people with trauma, because you don't necessarily have to do that to go back through all of your trauma. And so for this to be effective, we don't need to talk about your trauma, which is great. You can watch the British Baking Show and suddenly you find yourself, two months into training, like less reactive. You know that you're not as triggered, you're more emotionally resilient, so something that would normally have triggered you doesn't, and you're like, oh my gosh, like that, you know it's. It's very much like, um, if you've ever lifted weights like I started training at the gym in last, about a year ago, I guess and like you leave the first couple workouts and you're like I don't feel any stronger, you know.

Speaker 1:

But like four months, in six months, in something like that, all of a sudden dave and I are moving furniture and I'm like I don't have to stop every five feet, you know, I was like yeah, I actually use that analogy with my kids a lot okay training physically and mentally too and it's important to train your brain, and when you, you know, don't stay on top of things or forget things, your brain goes to mush. Right.

Speaker 3:

It's the same way we take care of our physical bodies too Right and the reps matter.

Speaker 2:

That's why we do 40 sessions. We see people have a lot of positive effects, often after 10, 15, some pretty significant changes. But it's learning right and most of the time, unless we have a single really spectacular traumatic event, we learn things by repeating them over and over and over again, and so the brain has learned, through whatever circumstances, to be dysfunctional or dysregulated in some area. So we want to train it because brains change right. Brain plasticity I'm sure you've heard of that term. That just means you can learn and so your brain can learn. We often think of learning as like facts we know or whatever. But the brain learns all kinds of things, and so when it learns that, it gets rewarded and you feel better. When it's in a different arrangement of how it produces its waves, then that just becomes the natural thing. And so you've got to put in the reps. And so you've got to put in the reps, yeah you've got to put in the time yeah you've got to do the drills to get the skills.

Speaker 2:

In this case the drills are not that hard, right, you just need to sit there. But the other thing that we found then was that with some of Paige's original trauma clients, that some of them were kind of stuck right. I mean, they'd been doing this for a long time trying to get through the talk part, and it was very difficult.

Speaker 3:

So they'd come. Do you feel like the talking therapy? It just takes longer to get at the root of the issue.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I feel like. I feel like the ones that were really successful like stopped for a while, did just neurofeedback and then came back and talk therapy was much more effective Because they weren't sort of frozen in that place because their brain was sort of controlling.

Speaker 2:

Okay, these are the emotions that you can have about this thing, and so when you retrain their brain and they may have come to me for three months, something like that, and not done any talk therapy, and then they go back in and I've seen many people get off of their antidepressants, their anti-anxiety meds, stuff like that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean we've seen people that were on a couple of medicines for decades that they may have started as a teenager. And they just never reevaluated it or kept reevaluating, but felt that they really needed it and hadn't found something else that was effective.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so and you guys are one of the few people that do this right? Yeah, Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 1:

So it's very new because of the computing power and so we got on the you know kind of the train, the neurofeedback train, pretty early on.

Speaker 2:

And it's actually been around for like 50 years.

Speaker 1:

Right, but they did it in universities and hospitals. And now, you know we do. We can do it with just the equipment that we have, and so there's probably just a handful of people in this area, in the Washington DC metropolitan area, that do it, and of those people, not all of them. There's a few neurologists, there's a chiropractor that does it, but there's very few mental health professionals that integrate it into their practice. So it's pretty exciting to be you know on the. You know, you know on the early side of it.

Speaker 2:

That's almost entirely what she still does.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's I would say my, that's my jam, but I love it. I love the wombo combo with the nerve feedback. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, so we used to do all the neuro sessions together, like literally both of us putting the electrodes on the person and going through the whole thing when you were my tech. But now he goes solo and then I tend to then do the talk therapy and I feel like they work really well together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we've seen people come out of talk therapy, go to neurofeedback, go back to talk therapy and have these experiences in resolving trauma or whatever it is, because now the brain is capable of processing it, where before it just froze them down and they ended up, you know, curled up on the couch.

Speaker 2:

Right because their brain was so dysregulated. So you get the brain kind of evened out and and teach them a few other skills, more learning, right and so. So that's why we talk about this is bottom-up, that is like from the body it's subconscious, it's unconscious. Talk therapy is top-down. You think about it and you know it's very effective. You know cognitive behavioral therapy is, you know, pretty well proven as being effective for things. But we think it's much more effective if you….

Speaker 1:

If your brain is healthy.

Speaker 2:

If your brain's healthy, if your nervous system is functioning right.

Speaker 3:

You guys were talking about Apple Watches and getting your heart rate and stuff, and we have that technology now on our wrist that you used to have to go to the doctor for right Dr Right To get your heart rate and see if you're sleeping. Good, you had to go to a sleep center, dr.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Do you feel like this is maybe the new generation of therapy? Where do you see the future going with this?

Speaker 1:

I hope that the future is going where all of that is integrated. I would love all of my patients even to not only wear their Apple Watch and get their sleep data, because that really matters to do neurofeedback.

Speaker 1:

Wear their Android Watch Wear a continuous glucose monitor, because all of these things are related. Like we're starting a group for parents of kids who are doing neurofeedback kids with ADHD, just to you know, talk about how to better support them with other lifestyle things. So one thing that really matters is diet. You know A lot of people don't know that. You know, like all of the dyes and sugars and fructose and you know a lot of the processed food that, like, unfortunately, we all eat, um, really impacts behavior and brain function and cognitive function and emotional resilience.

Speaker 3:

I mean it's just red dye 40. I feel like kids reacted to that, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll do like I'll find out what some of these kids eat and then I'll do these experiments on myself that are really awful, but I just want to know like what does that feel like?

Speaker 1:

And so I had something like eating. I had the red dye, yeah, like literally two weeks ago, and I could not sit still Like we're trying to watch a movie together, and I'm like I got to stand up, I got to wiggle my leg, I could not stand it. And so I just, you know, we want to integrate all of that, because if you're going to do neurofeedback, great Like that is a noninvasive, drug-free way to help with ADHD, but you cannot go home and eat frosted Pop-Tarts. You know, like that will you know.

Speaker 2:

So we'd like to integrate all of it or the blue Slurpee on the way home from New York. I've had that happen.

Speaker 1:

Right, so I'm also a certified integrated nutrition coach through INN, so anyway, like I integrate that in to help support all of these modalities.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's the goal you talked about, like have all these kids that were able to get off all these major prescriptions, which I'm a huge advocate for is that the goal kind of when they come in is is to do you still feel like some of them need conjunction of both medication and their neurotherapy and talk therapy.

Speaker 1:

So we have not had anyone yet who wanted to get off medicine, unable to like. It's been really, really helpful. But they also have to do the other. Lifestyle changes are really, really important. So if you want to get off your medicines and do neurofeedback and feel better, whether you have adhd or depression or anxiety or you're just really stressed out or you have insomnia, like you've got to address the diet and movement and sleep, like those are the, the big three, um, but we, what we find is that the kids with ADHD honestly are the. The stimulants are way over prescribed because they they kind of advertise. I mean, this is good. Pharmaceutical companies shut this podcast down.

Speaker 1:

They advertise that there's something called the ADHD brain and it all looks the same, you know, and it doesn't. We've seen hundreds and hundreds of brains now and some of them do have that we call like frontal slowing, which is like, instead of producing beta waves when they're sitting in class, they've got the theta, the slow theta. They're daydreaming, and that's what the stimulants technically help with. But there are other reasons that it can be having ADHD symptoms and it's not necessarily slowing in the frontal lobe. So if you give that child a stimulant, all it does is make them feel more anxious and wiggly.

Speaker 3:

And if a child's already anxious, those stimulant drugs are just going to.

Speaker 1:

It's a disaster.

Speaker 2:

When we look at a brain map, when I look at a brain map and we consult with a neuropsychologist who has pioneered a whole bunch of different protocols and he's published a zillion peer-reviewed papers and you can look at this brain map and you can see where all this activity is and, and I would say, maybe only a third of the kids, if that, and adults as well, that have been diagnosed with adhd and it's a valid diagnosis, because adhd diagnosis is just a laundry list of symptoms right and and the assumption that those symptoms are caused because you have some sort of dopamine lack in your frontal lobes is just not correct and so you can look at.

Speaker 2:

one of the nice things about this is we don't have to guess which part of the brain is dysregulated. So if a kid comes in and has ADHD, he's been diagnosed by their pediatrician. Or often we get people who've been tested by a psychologist who does testing and you know they come up with this adhd diagnosis. We can look at the brain map. We can say, well, I don't see much frontal slowing, but what I do see is a lack of connection between the executive function in the frontal lobes and, for example, the motor system that moves things right. So so the front of their brain can't say, hey, don't reach your hand out for that, or it doesn't happen fast enough for them to obey that thing, or they may just be really anxious.

Speaker 2:

A lot of kids that manifest with ADHD. Actually, one of the main things that I see is the part of their brain that has to do with social stuff is a bit dysregulated and they have a tremendous amount of anxiety and that anxiety then manifests in acting out and then, if they have impulse control problems as well, because that part of the brain isn't talking to the other parts of the brain, then that's where those symptoms come from. So not everything can be as people. I always tell people yeah, of course you focus better, even if on on a stimulant. I'm like we're all sharper when we take speed, you know, um, it's, it's amphetamine, so we all feel pretty sharp when that, when we do that, right. Coffee works the same way, um, but if you drink too much coffee, you get really jittery, right. And if you're already anxious, if you're already experiencing a lot of that sort of that somatic, that body anxiety, pouring a stimulant on that is only going to make things worse.

Speaker 1:

Right and the reason we don't give our kids coffee yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because of the same reason.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, well, this has been hugely fascinating for me. I love hearing about this and I'm gonna do some more research on this is there any parting words you guys would like to leave us with in regards to so your therapy program to business, sure?

Speaker 1:

so we have a new website going live hopefully in the next few days and we have a lot of videos on hopefully in the next few days and we have a lot of videos on there about what neurofeedback is and you know the other kind of work that we do. We're having a summer neurofeedback, family neurofeedback training sale. So if one family buys a 40-session package, a second and even a third if you want family member, can get it for half off and even a third.

Speaker 2:

If you want family member can get it for half off. We find that that's really handy with kids who want to train and a lot of times they'll feel better if their parents do it and frankly, I have never met a parent who brought one of their children in who couldn't use it themselves, basically Because everybody's stressed, everybody's anxious. I mean it may not be exactly the same treatment. That's. The other cool thing is that it's very tailored to exactly Because everybody has different stressors.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and everybody's brain is functioning a little bit differently, so we can target that pretty specifically, and the other part is just the whole person I mean. So we talked about ADHD and depression and anxiety. There's a whole bunch of other types of things that you know a general therapeutic practice will work with, and so we use whatever works, whatever is appropriate at the time for those people, and so they may go between the practitioners.

Speaker 1:

Right, there's actually three of us. So the third her name is Liz is not here, but she's like a wonderful like with teenagers, talk therapy, and she sees couples and I see individuals and families and so between all of us, we would like to think of ourselves as, yeah, mental wellness practice, yeah, you know, all-encompassing with the nutrition. Yes, yes.

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you so much, I'm going to come in and see you guys.

Speaker 2:

Oh good, definitely do. We'd love to give you a tour, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for having us in.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for being here today. It was a great conversation.

Speaker 1:

Thanks a lot. You guys did awesome Thank you, it was fun.