ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Curiosity as a Superpower - Part 2 with Amber Molloy
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Curiosity is not just a trait—it's a superpower in education, and Amber Molloy is back with us to unravel its transformative potential. Discover how asking the right questions can revolutionize learning environments, fostering deeper connections with students and colleagues alike. Reflect on the significance of relationships and the power of genuine connections with Amber as she shares her personal journey in education. From emphasizing the strengths of educators to navigating the challenges of leadership roles, Amber's experiences highlight the lasting impact of collaboration and compassion.
About our guest:
Amber Molloy serves as the Program Administrator for Literacy and the Instructional Coach Mentor in the Office of Professional Learning at Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. She has a passion and commitment to lead colleagues forward guiding curriculum development, refining instructional practices and designing assessments that support learning. She's skilled in long-range planning and the creation of infrastructure to support the growth of teachers, schools, and districts. With over 20 years of experience within the North Penn School District, Amber has served as a classroom teacher with leadership responsibilities in the areas of literacy, math, science, and use of technology to enhance instruction, and has also served as reading specialist, RTII District Implementation Coordinator and K-12 Supervisor of Literacy developing systems and structures to promote diagnostic and prescriptive instruction within a responsive teaching framework.
Through her many years in the field, Amber continues to have curiosity and passion for the human element of our work. She enjoys reading, watching and reflecting on leadership, relationship and how we can better support each other and work together to evolve our educational systems to support the learners of tomorrow. Our future is in their hands!
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
welcome back to change ed, your podcast, for all information and facts that have been triple checked by someone in an office somewhere wow I am your host.
Speaker 2I can't believe they. Let us put this stuff out and Andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and here with me is Patrice Simichek, also out of the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and I believe we actually figured out in our emails we are project consultants.
Speaker 1No, no, no, no, that's not true.
Speaker 2Yeah, it is no. If we keep saying education it's education, but our email says project.
Speaker 1This is all good, should we be consistent. No, because we decided to prolong her retirement. We have a second episode with Amber Malloy from our office. Welcome back, thank you. We have two questions for you, okay. The first one is what is my best attribute as an educator?
Speaker 3No judgment, no evaluation. I don't do that, thank you.
Speaker 1That kills my second question, which was what's Patrice's worst attribute as an educator?
Speaker 3Wow, Do you see? I know it's rough.
Speaker 2This is rough. We're leaving that. Everybody should see how you treat me.
Speaker 3I know I'm known as the lady who asks why? And I know I mean and does that come from Simon's work?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think Simon reinforced that my asking of questions was actually okay, yeah, and there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it, but I can, myself, who always feels like I'm in trouble for something and, not having had any of those experiences. When I was asked questions as a kid, it was because oh, they found out, I did something. When I ask questions as a worker in other situations, it's always because, oh crap, I forgot to do something.
Speaker 3And again I put a lot of pressure on myself. That is unnecessary, but you're making me think about how we're. In our classrooms, we're working with teachers. My goodness, we worked with them on how to ask questions. It's been such a part of our instructional design. Where do the questions go?
Speaker 2more about. More about the relationship than the question so it so that's where I think we're, we're can't skip over that.
Speaker 3No, and that's coaching too.
Speaker 2But we've done a disservice and I think back about like the 10 years that I did math and I'm like asking questions. Here's the questions to ask. Here they are. I've written them for you, someone wrote them for you. There's a hundred questions for whatever topic, but we've never talked about the impact of the question without the connection. So I think for me that's one of those like ah today that I'm having like I need to do a better job of communicating.
Speaker 2It's not just about the question. We can't have those back pocket questions without the connection to my kids.
Speaker 3Circle back to instructional coaching. If I'm coaching an adult, yeah yeah, same is true, right? If I'm coaching you and I come at you with well, why'd you do that, patrice? If we didn't have a relationship, you would shut right down and say who is that lady? Who does she think she is? And so that's in all of my work with instructional coaching and that's where I got into the whole transformational work and the whole.
Speaker 3Who are you with? Who is this person? How do I know you on a deeper level? Because I can't help you to grow unless we're both vulnerable with each other. And I need to know you in order for you to be vulnerable with me. And the only way you can be vulnerable with me is if you trust me. Wow, it's going to take me some time of intentional action to get you to trust me. Wow, it's going to take me some time of intentional action to get you to trust me and show that I'm trustworthy. And I think the same is true in our classrooms. When teachers come in and honor that part of their relationship, their learners come in vulnerable and they can ask questions.
Speaker 2And they're going to move so much further, so much faster, so much further so much faster.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, and there's evidence. There's evidence. I know I can't just say the research says, but I know there's research out there and give me a second, I'll find it for you. Around that element of the learner, I mean and that's Brene's work of vulnerability that I lean so heavily on. There's so much in the research that just she has done about human growth and vulnerability. It's magical.
Speaker 1When you can get a vulnerable learner in your space, you will be a collective unit and you will move forward we've seen it in small tidbits, I think in the work that we do yeah, one of the gifts that we have experienced ourselves and that we are very focused, that we want to be able to share with our listeners this year, but also especially at our steals expo, is the gift of curiosity curiosity is such a gateway, yeah, and for so many things that I'm I'm hearing and I'm listening to, is that being able to literally give it as a gift, like you're allowed to be curious.
Speaker 1Being curious is amazing because it leads to so many great things and a great example of how unintentionally, culturally, that is sometimes not allowed. I would say, by and large, not allowed to be curious because you're not falling in line if you're curious. Just the other day, I was in the space and you could look outside and it was very obvious how different the outside looked, because it was now winter. So when you looked at the landscape, it was just blatantly different from the summer, when everything was green, and the fall when you had all the beautiful colors.
Embracing Curiosity and Connection in Learning
Speaker 1And now nothing Right Like all of that was gone and I said to someone I'm like, wow, that landscape looks very different. And the person turned to me and said are you feeling okay? And I was like, check, not allowed to be curious in this space. I'm going to tuck that back in, right. But I also felt like I was tucking in part of myself, like I really, really, in my adult life, became confident and courageous with my own curiosity. To be like this is part of who I am. If I see something, I'm going to talk about it and I'm probably going to have about 10 questions, some that I could maybe solve on my own, but others where I like I want others to be part of that. And you know what? Do you think that? Why? Why do you think they parked that way and took up nine spots?
Speaker 1It's a really tiny car. How did they do that?
Speaker 2Right, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1So my point is it's I think it's beyond education in our systems. It's a cultural thing of like. You don't know the answer, then you don't know what you're talking about. Versus admitting I know some things, I could get in the door, but yeah, I have a lot to learn, and so what you're talking about being this lifelong learner is that it's really that acceptance of like. But I'm not done right Just because I'm retiring early.
Speaker 3I'm not done right, my.
Speaker 1Amber Gochi has to continue growing. I want to keep doing.
Speaker 3What's resonating with me, with everything you just said, is the ways of being, the study of the ways of being that we talk about a lot in instructional coaching is how you show up to the conversation. Whether it be Jim Knight's interpretation, elena Aguilar's interpretation, joellen Killian's interpretation, we all mention this ways of being but, andrew, it's everything you just said in that it's you show up to the space with curiosity, compassion and courage, and as the coach, you have to step into the space with a lot of courage because you're not sure exactly where it's going to go down. But if you show up in those ways of being, predominantly, it's easier to step away from judgment and evaluation, because I'm not here to judge you or evaluate you. I'm here to be curious about who you are and what you bring to the space and what strengths that you have, what gifts that you have. And then our collective is the two of us being curious about something together. So I might be working with you on engagement strategies in your classroom, but I'm not here to give you answers and be the expert in the space. I'm here to be curious about what you know about engagement strategies.
Speaker 3What have you done? You're a teacher, you're a talented educator. You are every day inspiring those around you. What do you know? And I'll share what I know, but I certainly don't know everything. Let's be curious together. Let's be curious together. Let's have the courage to find new ways to do things. You also brought up is, like I feel like I should know, or not know, like what's the answer? If I don't know the answer, I think the other thing we have to shift in our spaces is it's not the answer, it's an answer, and we want to grow that curiosity, to discover what we said before outside of the learning path. What are the other ways, what are the other viewpoints, what are the other things we can learn that can complement our current work versus the answer that is amplified the most in our landscape?
Speaker 1You know, as we think about the rift that we can feel in society, that we have a hard time getting along or there's issues that divide us. The reality is there's so much that actually connects us, but we get hung up on these smaller issues, and so what I was hearing from you is curiosity leads to connections, because if I'm open and I'm curious, then we find something that connects us. And no, you did that too.
Speaker 2So did I.
Speaker 1And then we find the common ground. But I think we found the issue we nailed on the head here on this podcast, which is not the first time we've done that because we are not encouraging curiosity, we can't find that common ground. Instead, what divides us? Oh, you didn't know? Well, I knew the answer so I, I knew, yes, I knew the answer and you didn't.
Speaker 3So I have some you have something over me already, over me, yep and then, and then that but also there's like multiple the answers.
Speaker 2So, to add to your point, if you have the answer and I have my the answer, we're not going to be able to meet in the middle and have common curiosity in the same way that we would if we were. Just let's talk about it.
Speaker 3Again, it comes back to the learning culture. If our society is a culture of learning versus knowing the answer, I mean, I think we get our answers in a moment. You want to know the answer? Google will tell you yeah, the answer.
Speaker 1Right, and that again goes back to that transactional versus transformative, and I think that's for us. Why we got to this spot, even with this podcast, is that we were like how can we be transformational and while we banter all the time on the podcast which actually doesn't matter if we're recording or not, we will do that. There is a common appreciation for that curiosity.
Speaker 2Because we came to the table with those three C's she mentioned.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yes, it took us a minute because I didn't like you.
Speaker 1It took me a minute.
Speaker 3Well, I think that's the work that we do with instructional coaches is just calling that out as something to reflect in on and about Is when I enter this dialogue, am I bringing compassion? Yeah, is that what's needed right now? Right, when I come to this collective conversation a group of 30 in the room and as a leader, how do I come to that conversation? Is it with courage and curiosity? The other work I'll call out is I really appreciate Brene Brown's work on the power dynamics she talks about and I think that I've always been a leader that has led power with and why. That's who I am as a human.
Speaker 3I guess that's how I was nurtured as a child. That's how I grow. My family is it's all power with. Like I've never had power over my children, even when they were little, rambunctious, crazy little boys. It was always power with, and I think that that's something to think about in your systems is how systems are organized, what are the power structures? And I think her work, bernays Brown, her work in that is just insightful and it really gives us a tool to use to think about, even in the dynamic between the two of you.
The Power of Reflective Relationships
Speaker 3Was it power over, power with? It's always been power with, but in the power with, dynamic, compassion, courage and curiosity are essential in how you show up to the dialogue. I mean, it seems just to me. I think how do we not know this? How do we not integrate? And I think that, back to that again, the learning path and learning off the path is when I went down the route of leadership and I started looking at leadership outside of the field of education, leadership as a field of study. That's where we have to go is we are our own institution and entity, but there's so much we can learn from others.
Speaker 2I think the other impactful thing is your. We're a room full of reflectors oh yeah oh yeah, like without coaching again, but without, without the consistent and constant reflection of how did I show up and do I need to go back and apologize for how? I showed up because I was coming at it from my personal lens and I had my backup, being able to be again in a safe enough space to say I messed up, like I treated you like crap and I apologize.
Speaker 2I think that is a massive piece and with reflection comes growth because, I'm going to be more aware of my intentions and the way that I'm presenting myself in a space. If I've been reflective about it, I'm going to try not to do that again because of how I know it made you feel or not feel, I accept your apology but the thing you have to call out. I will reflect on that later and get back to you you want to differentiate what it means to reflect too.
Speaker 3And that's like deeper learning. For me, it's like we throw around this word reflect on it, reflect about it in it. I mean, that's Killian's in on it about, but some people reflect from the. I said that I maybe shouldn't have said it that way. I'll say it this way, which is a start to reflection, but the deeper reflection is well. Why did you even say it this way, which is a start to reflection, but the deeper reflection is well. Why did you even say it that way? What's inside of you that causes you that abrupt response? Or those words? Why are those words part of your regular vernacular? Why is that?
Speaker 3And then, what's the context and what's the premise in the dialogue that was the catalyst for you to react that way and I think that deeper reflection is even harder to spend the time, and I think that's again where instructional coaches come in, or executive coaches or mentor coaches or whatever role it is that you play, which we didn't really call out in my bio, like my work with instructional coaching and the number of coaches across the county that I have the privilege to interface with, but I think there's something there is that it oh yeah, reflect. I thought through what I said and that's not enough to change who you are, to grow yourself as a human.
Speaker 1So let's go where you just were talking about, about the coaching piece, but I want to do it from the lens of Penn State.
Speaker 2We didn't talk about the deep, deep blue blood that runs in your veins deep blue blood that runs in your veins.
Speaker 1I want to talk about it from how I see you as a micro penn state, because of the deep, deep following that people have for you and appreciation. But it goes both ways because you literally say these are my people, they.
Speaker 1They're my people, I'm going to cry and your arms just keep extending wider. They give them all a hug at the same time, but they don't. You know, what I think is beautiful is that your hands don't actually touch, because there's always more room for more people to come in there and to join in. But I don't know that I've gone into any room where you're like, yeah, these are not my people. Like everybody's, your people, you yeah, these are not my people.
Speaker 2Like everybody's, your people, you're like somehow we've connected, Nope, not you.
Speaker 1Somehow we've connected and we've learned together and like there's like that bond that you've created with them. But we've all been around long enough in our careers to see lots of really unbelievable people retire, but the response to your retirement has been so genuine and so heartfelt and really impacted. I think it's a good testament to your work. But also, again, on reverse, you know, not everybody always gets to see your reactions and it's such a genuine, it was like, you know, a real relationship that's been established and knowing that that's going to change, but who knows how? But it's so powerful and, again, very much like a Penn State. My dad went to Penn State. He's still, you know, he's 400 years old and he still goes to the Penn State games. Sometimes they try to sell us our tickets. I'm like dad, I didn't go there, I got, I don't get it.
Speaker 2But it's like that level. I don't get it, but I do. I don't know. It's a weird when it comes to Amber and Malloy, it's that level of people.
Speaker 1They're all in right. And I know you're all in for all the people, so I think it's worth noting. And again, my people, I just love the connection that you have with others, especially myself. That's why you called it Andrew Gochi.
Speaker 3And I think that the root of all of that is it's relationship Leadership is about. In my work, it's about relationship, and so if I wasn't authentic, in that relationship.
Speaker 3I wouldn't have the feelings that I have now, but the root of everything I've done, that's what it's been. But and I think we miss that I remember early on in my career and I was a student for a very long time. I started in language and literacy, finished in reading and then I went on and did the instructional coaching credential at the state level and then continued on and got my administrative credentialing. And I've just been a student. I did not pursue my doctorate because I did not find a program locally that challenged me to do the research that I wanted to do and I couldn't go to Columbia or go to where I was going to go, to Ohio State at one point. Can you imagine that Me at Penn State or no, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it. But I really, I and I still, I still would love to do research like PhD level research in the field, because I think there's work that I've done that has had an impact and I want the data to prove that that's what makes the impact.
Speaker 3But anyway you have data, I have anecdotal qualitative. And I have gathered we did some work back when we were funded under PIC. We did some work that was more correlated to student achievement as a result of relationship, but then COVID hit and we lost it.
Speaker 2But even I know the student achievement is very important considering the work that we do. But I like to think that if I've made an impact in someone and they're doing something that is better for kids, even if the assessment results aren't showing it.
Speaker 2I've made a difference and I've made an impact, and so I think for us you know I I don't have a doctorate that to me feels like, especially given our work with adults. If I'm doing something that is changing the way a student is attending to learning, even if achievement results don't show it, I've done my job like it's more important to me as a teacher to make sure kids love learning, not they do great.
Speaker 3On the ps, it says yeah, yeah I know that's the ripple effect and we don't know how far we ripple.
Speaker 2So you do have that data, because everybody the impact you have, you have that data it's just not numbers that's really what it comes back down to. It's always about the relationship and and power. And how are you? How are you?
Speaker 1Yesterday when they said what state will Amber go to first? I said Ohio, and then I was like if not Michigan?
Speaker 2I was like absolutely not.
Speaker 3But you see, and I, you know I'm, I, for me what's so. It's funny we joke about that kind of stuff. But you know, and very different than my husband and my children, you know, like they have, they're such strong fans. But who I am as a person? I'm about the people and I'm so happy for those. I'm happy for Michigan and Ohio State to have the same, not the same, to have a similar level of community.
Speaker 2I mean, it's similar to what?
Speaker 3we have. I don't think anyone has the same as Penn State it is unlike anything. I've experienced.
Celebrating Educator Relationships and Compassion
Speaker 3But, it's a collective and I think that's the idea. It is about just honoring people and that's just who I am. Someone left me a note around how they see me as someone who my entire existence is around making you better, and that they honored that in me and saying that they've never experienced a leader who was selfless in a way that it's more about those who I serve than it's ever been about me. And I think that's always been my rub in leadership over the years is leaders step into the role for various reasons. Oh, that's what I was starting to say is when I went through all those credentials and certificates and things and as soon as I got my administrative credentialing, I was like, oh my gosh, amber, oh Amber, you would just be an amazing principal. Oh, you would just be so great you should be a principal, you should be a principal. And I was like I felt so puffed up, like, oh my gosh, yes, yes, I should be a principal, I could be a principal.
Speaker 3And it took a few years of me like pushing in that arena, like, is that really? Because I served one of my roles one of our largest elementary schools in North Penn and I served as part-time reading specialist part-time administrative support kind of person. I don't even know what my title was back in the day, but I served more in an administrative role at the elementary level, supporting the principal. So I dabbled in that arena a little bit but I think as I allowed myself to grow into that is I realized that the principalship is not really my calling and I'm more called to serve and grow others. And I think curriculum instruction assessment opened those doors for me to give me a larger audience to empower others to grow, and those were the communities I was allowed to serve. So not that I couldn't have I think I could have done the same in a principal's position but my goodness our principals, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3And our principals, oh my, my my. What they go through and what they the communities that they're called to serve, the parents, the students, the teachers, the district administration like my goodness, they're just the challenges in their landscape. I don't know if I'd be sitting here today if I took on that role.
Speaker 1Extra early retirement.
Speaker 3Yeah, what I just think they I call them, you know, it's the middle management in our educational systems that are just burdened with so much and yet called to be instructional leaders and yet at the same time, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1I can be very far down the list.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's just such a challenge.
Speaker 1Well, amber, I'm going to flip the script here on how we usually end things. Usually, I have the final word and we give our guests the second to last final word, but I'm going to take the second to last and give you the final word.
Speaker 2This has never happened before. That's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1Yeah, so I'll talk for a little while to give you some reflective think time.
Speaker 2Not that you need it.
Speaker 1You got 30 years of data in there, even though you're 36. Weird, I have questions about when you started, but my number one thing would be this is exactly the reason that we have a podcast is because we're able to share this oral history.
Speaker 1There's so much more that's in that mind of yours and that makes up who you are. But at least we're able to share some of these things where if you didn't have a conversation with Amber, you might never hear this or get this perspective. Or if you don't read Benet Brown or Simon Sinek I mean, I know your bookshelf is not- light.
Speaker 2There's a lot. There's a lot.
Speaker 1The floors in the building are actually happy. You're leaving, we're going to get a little relief, but this oral history, it spans the test of time. We were always sharing things with each other and having this conversation, so that's the richness that I love about the podcast. The other thing for me with the podcast is that in so many ways, every single podcast that we record, I feel like, is a love note to my children, because they might not hear these conversations from me or understand what I do, but at some point they might have an opportunity to listen to this and again, just that love note. But for you, I feel like this is a love note to all your people. It's not just your children, it's for everyone that you can kind of share this out and share these thoughts and these experiences that I've had. It's been a privilege to not only work with you but to be able to sit down with you and capture these moments and have them recorded for all of eternity.
Speaker 1So you can't change your mind after it's put out there, but what would you like to share with us as your final thoughts for our episode?
Speaker 2This never happens.
Speaker 1I might say something when you're done, but go ahead, there it is.
Speaker 3There it is. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to pause for a moment and think back through my career and really through this dialogue you've kind of helped me just narrow it down to who I am as an educator and ultimately how it's about relationship and genuine, authentic compassion for everyone in the field is so many people go in to serve in our schools and every single one of them has the opportunity to impact.
Speaker 3I've been relentless in my work. I don't think over the time did I ever back away, and I think we need to do that, and I'm just grateful. I'm really grateful and I hope that I would love for all educators to be a part of a community where they're honored for the strengths that they bring. None of us are perfect and none of us have, you know, all green children on the PSSA and we all need to work together. Our system needs to realign together. Our system needs to realign together. It's not my content versus your content, my way versus your way, my philosophy versus your philosophy. We all can learn. We all can learn from each other, and we need to, and so I think that coalesce word that I brought out whenever I did, I think that it truly is about the coalescing coales's another word for you Coalescing around, really, the humans that we serve. Coalescing around the humans that we serve. Maybe that's it.
Speaker 1We would like to thank the worldwide 3 billion Penn State fans who have all listened to this podcast, and to the Willard family for sharing it with the.
Speaker 2Penn.
Speaker 1State nation Go Lions, go Nittany Lions. What?
Speaker 2Is that what they say, nittany Lions? Is that what you say, go Lions?
Speaker 1No, actually they say we are.
Speaker 2I was going to say that I've never heard go Lions.
Speaker 1We are go Lions, okay, we are.
Speaker 2That's what you say.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I know that my mom went to Penn State so she gets it, but I disappointed and went to Central Florida.
Speaker 1Thank you for tuning in ChangeEd Nation, as always. Be sure to follow us so you can get all of our latest podcasts.
Speaker 3Yeah, good words. Keep doing the great work that you're doing. Thanks, you are making an impact.
Speaker 1Was that for both of us or just me? No, it was both of you.
Speaker 3Because you were looking at me when you said that?
Speaker 2No, I did my best. Do you see why I?
Speaker 3am the way I am. Keep asking questions, keep being curious.
Speaker 2Goodness gracious. I'm glad someone else sees the way I'm treated.
Speaker 1With respect.
Speaker 3With respect. I was going to say in relationship. Say in relationship curiosity, compassion and courage.