3. Alex Williams on the Poetry of Discovery & What Humanism Means

Mark Agathangelou, CLH Committee Member and active Event Organiser joins this week's panel to discuss finding Humanism through the  One Life Course, hosing discussion groups and our recent 'What Humanism Means to Me' live open mic night.

Plus our interview with the multi-talented Alex Williams; a poet, teacher, playwright, and author, who will shed light on the power of community within humanism. With his unique perspective, we'll explore the unique role of arts in creating compelling communities, how Alex defines humanism and what inspires his Secular Verses.

Finally, we tackle our mailbag question this week: Why are there still Bishops in the UK's House of Lords, in what is an increasingly secular country.

Episode references:
CLH Once Life Course
Humanists UK Courses on Humanism
Video: What Humanism Means to Me
Humanists UK Campaign: Bishops in the House of Lords

More on Alex Williams;

• Blog: The Dialup 
• Facebook: Tiger Jazz
• Poetry Collection: Secular Verses

Book recommendations from Alex Williams;
Alain de Botton, Religion for Atheists: A non-believer's guide to the uses of religion 

Transcript

James H: 0:00

Hello and welcome to episode three of Humanism, now the podcast brought to you by the central London humanists. I'm your host, james, and this week we'll be looking into what are the areas for debate within humanist groups. Is there religious privilege in the UK government system? And we'll be reviewing our recent what Humanism Means to Me Open Night event in London. All that plus our interview with poet Alex Williams. To discuss all of this and more, I'm delighted to be joined by fellow CLH committee member, mark. How are you doing today, mark?

Mark A: 0:34

I'm very well. Thank you, James, and thank you very much for inviting me to join the podcast this week. I'm really looking forward to it.

James H: 0:42

And we're delighted to have you. So, as mentioned, you've been involved in many initiatives here at central London humanists and it's been a very busy week for you, so really appreciate you taking the time. As it's your first time on the show, I thought it might be helpful to get to know you a little bit, understand your background and your journey to humanism and getting involved with CLH.

Mark A: 1:03

Yeah, so for me it already began with the one life course.

Mark A: 1:09

I'd previously been interested in humanism a lot and I identified as a humanist, but I hadn't really been directly involved, apart from attending a few sporadic meetings over the years.

Mark A: 1:21

But then, during lockdown, I got an email from a humanist UK which I'm a member of, and it invited me to attend this exciting new thing I hadn't heard of, which was called the one life course, which was an introduction to humanism, and it was being presented by my local humanist group, central London humanists CLH. So I immediately signed up for it. I just had a second thought that that's exactly the sort of thing I'd like to do, both to find out more about humanism and expand my understanding of it, but also to connect up with my local group. So that was really my introduction and that was, I think, in 2020, yeah, I think it was 2020 that that happened and that was a really good experience and I thoroughly enjoyed it, to the extent that I actually, a year later, I was actually then having sort of thrown myself into the group. I was actually then a presenter on the one life course when it was next stage. So, yeah, it's quite a rapid integration into the group and I haven't really looked back.

James H: 2:26

And had you come from a religious background or had you always been non-religious and searching?

Mark A: 2:32

Yeah, so I'd always been non-religious. Although having attended a so-called bog standard school, state school I still got exposed to quite a lot of religious indoctrination, I would say. I mean, I think it's sort of baked into our educational system even if you don't attend a religious school, depending on the school. But and I, yeah, I did resent that, having coming from a non-religious background, and so I had some resentment. But essentially, yeah, I was non-religious but I wanted to define myself by the way, to define that, and I was drawn to politics.

Mark A: 3:09

But I always had a concern, which I think was vindicated when I did get involved that politics is just a bit too acrimonious partisan. You can meet people who you like but then find you disagree and then, because of the nature of party politics, it can all get quite difficult and become alienated from people. So the thing, the attraction of humanism which I think I didn't even realize this before I found it this is what I was looking for was something where it's a community of values, where you don't have that sort of intensive, sort of divisive element which can poison relationships and make things difficult.

James H: 3:44

Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to look at it, and was that something that was enforced for you through the One Life course that you mentioned?

Mark A: 3:54

Yeah. So the One Life course for those who don't know is something that was, I think, established by Chester humanists originally in consultation with HUK, and it's a six-part introduction to humanism in very sort of. I think it strikes the right balance. It's both accessible but it's not too simplistic, and it covers various aspects of humanism. So there's one about the ethics, there's one about science, there's one about humanism and relationship to religion, there's something about sort of humanism in the world, I think, and issues like the environment. So there's a whole range of things covered, but in a very accessible way with lots of opportunity for interaction. And so I don't know if it's been done face-to-face. I think that's an aspiration, but it's been done mainly online.

Mark A: 4:42

And it was yeah, it was very enjoyable, it was quite well attended, but I took you. I think there were about 20 of us or so and there's several of those people I've got. Three of those people, including me, went on to become committee members. So it was a really yeah, it was enjoyable but also really provided the opportunity of those who wanted to to actually get more involved, and it gave me a good overview. A lot of it I already knew, but it was also the actual interacting with other people and discussing it was very enjoyable and powerful.

James H: 5:16

Yeah, absolutely, and it's certainly something that we are keen to run again. I think, as you mentioned, the last in-person course was just before COVID. We've run one online since then and I do think there's an ambition before Central London to run another one-life course within the next year. We'll certainly circulate information on that when that's available and, as you say, I think Chester Humanist and other groups are also picking up these courses because they are a fantastic introduction to the breadth of issues that we tend to get involved with and humanists tend to be passionate and care about Exactly. But you did take that that enjoyment of the discussion forward with our group.

James H: 6:01

So, for those who are not aware, mark is also one of the founders of the discussion group which was launched with Central London humanists. In the past year. This has been a new program of online-only events really built around members and guests debating topical and ethical issues. Some of them relate directly to humanism and some of them just are more general areas of interest, perhaps in politics or philosophy that humanists tend to be interested in. It's been really well attended over the first year. So Mark is one of the founders. Could you tell us more about why we set up this discussion group and what the aims of it are.

Mark A: 6:40

Yeah, so prior to us setting up this particular discussion group, there had been previous versions which have been tried and some of which I'd attended, and I think it's just a natural thing for a humanist group to have as a discussion forum, because we like to think and talk about ideas and we've got a humanist perspective and there are big humanist issues directly like faith, schools or the role of religious privilege in society, but also there are other things the environment, for example where we would have a humanist perspective or just as humanists we would want, as members, as citizens, we would like the opportunity to discuss that. So, yeah, it was a natural thing to do. It had the previous version had sort of fallen away because other people, people got commitments. So there was a suggestion we should have one. Somebody else actually suggested it, but a number of people have been thinking about it already. So a group of us got together and just set one up.

Mark A: 7:45

It was turned out to be, as with everything like this, it turned out to be more work than expected, because you've got to redefine what it is you're going to do, what the goal is, how it's going to be structured. It would have been nice if it could be completely unstructured and spontaneous, but you've got to have some rules, you've got to have a format, you've got to have topics. Somebody's got to do the work of providing people in advance with links so they can do a bit of reading ahead. So there's a bit of work involved getting it set up and it's been now, I think, just over a year actually it's been going and, yeah, we've been going pretty much every month.

Mark A: 8:19

A whole range of topics. I think we started off talking about political silos and AI and the impact on the metaverse. We've talked about cancel culture. We've talked about industrial farming or versus regenerative agriculture, and I think we've got a fascinating topic coming up. Shall I mention that now we're going to be talking about book burning in Sweden and the extent of freedom of expression versus respect for the rights of minorities to protect them from what is allegedly hate speech or action. So there's that balance, so that which is more of a humanist related subject. So it's been well attended and we've talked about a lot of really interesting things.

James H: 9:12

These are all humanist or humanist adjacent topics, but these are things that affect all of us, I think, and it's really nice to have that forum once a month to come together and test your opinions on these views and hear different sides of the story. One of the things I've really appreciated is that we obviously are a London group and we tend to meet in person. We've got a huge alumni of members who've previously lived in London or maybe worked there for a time, now live internationally, and it's a chance to bring that wider community together. And even there are some guests who join us from around the country who only attend those online events. So, again, you're hearing different voices from a wider range of members and guests, and I think that's important because, again, we can often be siloed.

Mark A: 10:03

Yeah, definitely. I think just also another aspect which I think is really important and why it's a humanist discussion group in a way, is that we do try to keep the discussion respectful, rational and evidence-based, and I think and I think other humanists do as well that the way to really make progress and to unpack issues is to adopt that approach rather than a more of a sort of adversarial, sort of shouting match, and I think the media often generates sort of false conflict in order to sort of create drama, infotainment culture, and I don't like that.

Mark A: 10:42

I want to find out about the issue. I don't just want to hear two people shouting at each other and disagreeing. So it was a small antidote to that type of approach, is something we wanted to model.

James H: 10:54

And are there any areas that you've changed your mind on or learnt something new through being engaged with this group?

Mark A: 11:01

Yeah, so there's, I mean, I think I've learnt something from every discussion group. I've attended all of them and, yeah, I've learnt something in each and every one, I mean. So I mean we had quite a recent one which was about sort of sustainable and intensive agriculture and I just didn't know very much about that. So I literally learnt new things and I didn't necessarily come out with a sort of simple answer, but I certainly had an understanding of the range of approaches and possible ways forward. So that really that was one of the ones where I didn't know very much about the topic in advance. And it was just a great education, because one of the things we always do is we get the person, the organizer, who's going to be facilitating, to provide some materials in advance, and often that's that's really in you, they're available anyway. I could have read them, but I wouldn't have read them if I hadn't been attending a discussion about it. So it actually, you know, sort of nudges you towards becoming better informed on the issue, which is a useful part of it.

Mark A: 11:56

I mean, we had a very, we had a sentience one. I was already, you know, quite sympathetic to that, but it expanded. That was based on a talk. We had a follow up, which you organise, and we had a follow up discussion group about that with Jamie Woodhouse, and it's that's actually changed my behaviour Somewhat. I've become, you know, more vegan. I'm not a vegan, but I eat vegan at home and that nudged me in that direction. So there's been a lot of things where I mean a very interesting one about conservatism and humanism again, which which opened up things I hadn't thought about in terms of how that's an important issue. Maybe we'll come to that.

James H: 12:29

Yeah, I would agree. I've attended, I'd say probably half of them, and I think there's always something new to learn, a different perspective, and I think there's possibly a perception both outside and inside the movement that humanists should be all aligned on almost all issues and that we take a very hard line, rational, rationalist, scientific, naturalistic approach. But that isn't always obvious, and there are. There can be conflicting rationalist approaches or reasoned approaches to an issue and the other. I agree with you on the political side that often it's framed as a, you know, just a, just a debate, just a, a motive debate. But the other important point is, I think just throwing facts and scientific studies isn't convincing. So it's also about it's good training in a way to learn how to frame your points any more compelling and convincing manner.

James H: 13:26

That's going to hopefully change minds, change behavior and also to help us form where we we land as a humanist grouping on these, these developing issues like AI you mentioned, or like approaches to farming or sentientism. These are quite new developing issues. I don't necessarily have formed an opinion on how humanists should act or behave towards them.

Mark A: 13:47

I exactly, completely agree. I think it's about we really we have to debate it. It's an evolutionary process, isn't it? You engage with the subject, hopefully in a way which is which is logical, which is rational, which is fair, and through that fair debate, you actually, and discussion, you, you collectively, evolve your view, don't necessarily will have the same view, but it helps you develop it, and I think, human as humanist, we have to be happy. And it goes back to what I said before about politics. I think we have to be relaxed about plural. You know, being pluralistic, there will be people with different views, and I think that's something that is pretty well accepted within humanist groups and people are respectful of the fact that, as long as we have some sort of fundamental underlying values in common, we can disagree about lots of things, and we do.

James H: 14:33

Yeah, I think agree on the goals, but, but we can debate how we get there and and that's always valuable. So you mentioned the upcoming event. We'll certainly add the link to that in the show notes if anybody would like to be involved. If they, if anyone would like to find out more information, specifically on the discussion group, how would you recommend they get in touch with you?

Mark A: 14:54

So, on that particular discussion group, you just sign up to meet up and there will be links provide. There's already our links there which will tell you about the topic, and I think, I think, that in general, that's the best way to engage with the group through meet up just to look out for upcoming events and just sign up for them. It's very straightforward, it's it's all on. It's an online group, so you don't have to do anything other than just you know, click on the link on the day and attend and once you attend, we'll you know, we'll quickly talk through with you in about the format as well as briefly introducing humanism and CLH, but we don't belabor that.

Mark A: 15:31

So, yeah, it couldn't be more straightforward and the format is very is very easy to pick up and essentially we just we have we haven't been doing breakouts we basically have everybody in one big room, unless there's a lot of people, in which case we split into two rooms and we just keep that discussion going over the hour, or up to an hour and a half if people want to. Sometimes there's a presentation at the beginning if we have a guest, who's who's got you know, as we did recently, we had Neil Garrett, the chair of the conservative group in the London Assembly. He spoke for maybe 10 minutes or so at the beginning, and then we had a more of a discussion and a Q&A.

James H: 16:09

And often it's a Q&A to Neil, wasn't it?

Mark A: 16:11

It was a lot of. It was Q&A, yes, whereas, whereas that's probably slight, that's that's slightly atypical. Often it will simply be a regular member of the group will will introduce the topic in maybe a few minutes and the assumption is that people have done a bit of reading or they already know something about it, and then we just the discussion, we just let the discussion run from there. So it's yeah, it's a very easy and simple thing to engage with.

James H: 16:34

And the moderators are very good in ensuring that anyone who wants to speak has the opportunity to contribute and those who are more happy just listening in. There's no pressure that everybody has to contribute and share their opinion, so it's always very well chaired as well. Just finally, just to briefly run through, you mentioned one of the upcoming events. What are the topics that are going to be reviewed in the discussion group for the next few months?

Mark A: 17:01

Yes, so we haven't. So we've got. The next one is definitely sort of confirmed and, as I say, that's going to be about book burning in Sweden and the extent of freedom of expression. Should the burning of religious books be allowed? And this is relating to something that some people may have already read about, which is there been instances of a gentleman burning the Quran in Sweden as a sort of religious protest. I think he's a refugee from from. He's from Iran, and so the questions are is this legitimate? Someone would always be offended, no matter what is said but should a line be drawn? And who would get to decide which books and other items are sacred? And is it worth limiting the freedom of speech to prevent hate speech or the risk of physical harm? So that's our next one. That's confirmed.

Mark A: 17:53

The ones that we've got, we are considering as topics which are likely to be covered in the next few months, would include transhumanism, which is a sort of an extension, an expansion of humanism, which some people are very interested in. There's another topic, which is humanism intrinsically left wing, which is something which came out of a discussion we had about conservatism and humanism. So that's quite an interesting topic, because if anyone knows much about the origins of the humanist movement. It was very much associated with progressive ideas etc. But the times have changed and there are now a lot more people who would come from a more conservative background, who would also potentially, if not actually, identify as humanists. So that's a that's an interesting topic and we we definitely do want to get around to talking about faith schools as well in some time in the near future. But there will be people can con, can, can can suggest topics and we can. We can take those on, you know, quite flexibly.

James H: 18:54

Yes, thank you, mark, and I think if any listeners are particularly passionate or involved in any of those topics, or indeed would would like to offer a new area to contribute, then please do get in contact with us. As mentioned, this is organised by the London Humanist Group, but as an online event it's, it's really open to anyone and we're working together as many voices involved as possible. Now, as mentioned at the top of the show, mark's also been busy this week organising a new initiative at Central London Humanists, which is our open mic style events. The first one was called what Humanism Means to Me, and it featured a series of talks from some of our members a couple of committee members, but mostly just regular members who come to the group to give us an introduction to themselves and why they chose to identify as a humanist, what it speaks to them and what, why they joined our group. Those were really enlightening. I was fortunate enough to to come along for it as well, learnt a huge amount about our members.

James H: 19:51

Mark is the organiser. Firstly, congratulations on such a fantastic event. I think it was a huge success and we've had a lot of requests to do more going forward. What was the inspiration behind creating something like this?

Mark A: 20:07

Yes. So I should just preface by remarks, by saying James is being very modest. He was the emcee for the event and he did a fantastic job and played a big part in making it a success. That it was the motivation really was for me.

Mark A: 20:22

I've been thinking for a long time, really since I got involved with humanism, that I'd like to see us stage more engaging events which really bring people together around the core humanist values which are really good, fun, which provide that balance between getting together and also learning something and having some sort of element of structure. So a mixed, almost like a hybrid event. We do some fantastic talks, we have great speakers and they're really brilliant. I attend pretty much all of those and I always enjoy them. That's a great format. But I think it's good to have this slightly alternative hybrid version where there are some speakers. It's a little bit lighter, it's shorter, you don't have to concentrate quite as much because it's one person speaking for five minutes or five people speaking for five minutes about their personal experience. They're not trying to teach you anything per se. It's more engaging.

Mark A: 21:25

Then lots of time to discuss things and socialise amongst ourselves, because as humanists we like to get together and talk. We also threw in some free food and drink to help that along, which seemed to do the trick. This is something that we discussed as planners, including James. James' suggestion, as much as anything else, was that we have something entertaining at the end to send everybody away with a smile on their face. Hence the fact that we had the excellent humanist poet Alex Williams go a little set at the end and also talk about his humanist journey as well. It went better than I could possibly have dreamed. Really, it was a very good turnout. We got over 30 people came along, which is good for one of our events, and everybody seemed to enjoy themselves. There was just a really great atmosphere and feeling in the room. I had a lot of people come up to me, or directly or indirectly, and say how much they enjoyed it and how much they hoped we'd do it again.

James H: 22:28

It was great. It was a really great vibe From my side. I've been fortunate enough to chat with the speakers and hear all the presentations in my role. Just really enlightening as well. I think these are members who come along very often, that we see every week, but to hear their personal stories is always much more moving and humanizing. Despite being involved in all the preparation and the arrangements for everything, what did you take away from the event as just a participant in the audience?

Mark A: 23:01

Yes, so luckily I was able to sit back and enjoy it for the most part. I think what was really interesting is that we didn't really know because we didn't tell them what to say what the speakers were going to come out with. There was an element of anticipation and excitement. I knew they were all really interesting, nice people who would have something really interesting to tell. It happened, naturally, but we also tried to make it as diverse a group as possible. I think probably three of the people would have been young humanists. It was a very diverse selection of people. It was balanced in terms of gender and background. I knew it was going to be very varied.

Mark A: 23:47

I think I was just a joy to hear each person's personal journey just boil down into a few minutes. I was interested in how some common themes came through. Quite a few people did talk about coming from a religious background and how that had impacted them and the struggles they had to sort of what it represented to actually shift away from that and discovering humanism existed. And then there was a humanist community of inner-real solace and support in that journey. We were asking people about their humanist journey, so that was one of the things that came through. There was a lot of ambivalence about that. People still had a lot of respect and good feelings for their families and their communities, but they also wanted to express themselves as non-religious people. There was a lot of affection for humanism as they conduit for that.

James H: 24:44

They were all very good spirited and I agree that it was very respectful. People spoke very respectfully of their backgrounds and upbringings and I think, the fortune that they were able to question and be free to come to their own conclusions. It was a real range. I'd say it probably split between those who were raised religious and a mix of religions. I met my first ex Jane at that event, which was I learned a lot about that faith afterwards. That really sparked some discussion in the breaks as well. I think some of the more interesting ones were those who had come from a non-religious background family.

Mark A: 25:23

I think we should also mention Sapna and her contribution to very powerful poems that she'd written specifically for us about her experiences. There was a number of people who said how impactful they found that and how moving they'd found that With respect to all the other speakers, in a way, that was the standout one that people most remembered. That was really excellent. I was just so grateful that she was prepared to engage and make the effort to come along and do that Also to specifically write that material for us. I think she enjoyed it and was pleased to be involved. That was fantastic.

James H: 26:05

I totally agree. Sapna was fantastic. Again, congratulations to you, mark, on all the speakers on an amazing night. We're definitely looking forward to doing it again, thank you. As Mark mentioned, we were fortunate enough to be joined by a keynote guest speaker on the evening. Poet Alex Williams came and shared some of his secular verses that he's been preparing for many years now. Prior to that, I was fortunate to speak to Alex and find out a little bit more about his background and what he's been working on and why he chose to publish the secular verses. So here's my interview with Alex Williams. Alex Williams, welcome to Humanism Now.

Alex Williams: 26:44

Thank you so much for having me, James, and really looking forward to chatting with you.

James H: 26:48

Well, likewise, I know you've been a friend of Central London humanists for some time now. What would be a great place to start is for our listeners just to understand a bit more about your background and your route, your journey to humanism today and what brought you to this point.

Alex Williams: 27:06

So I think mine is a fairly typical story, particularly of families which have got heritage from outside of the UK. It's a podcast so it's worth me saying that I'm from a Caribbean background and my grandparents came across to the UK first and brought with them a very strong Christian faith, in fact a Catholic faith, which didn't really dilute all that much in the second generation, my parents' generation, and so by the time it came to me as third generation, I was very conscious of the difference between the strength of religious feeling in many of the older people in my family and the kind of religious apathy in most of my friendship group. So it wasn't really that I had lots of atheists and certainly not the case that I had lots of humanists around me. It's just that I had people who were really passionate about Christianity in particular. I was going to say religion generally, but actually it was Christianity. Every birthday card would be signed God bless you. Every Christmas card would have Jesus is watching over you at the bottom of it.

Alex Williams: 28:13

And in my social group people just didn't care about religion. It's not that they were even motivated to feel anti-pathetic towards it. So that created a bit of a conflict in me because I was very religious when I was young. I went to church every Sunday. I felt I had this father figure in the sky looking down at me and that was challenging because I knew I was gay and it made coming to terms with that identity quite hard. I remember going through my confirmation, in particular, and talking to the priest about it and being really dissatisfied with the answers he gave about how I might reconcile my faith with my sexuality, and so my first step towards humanism was just becoming very critical of Christianity as an organized religion. I didn't think it worked for me and that was a sad moment because it was not just moving away from religion, it was moving away in some sense from my sense of belonging to my family Because, as I say, this religion was very much a family trait in my experience growing up. But I did that. I did move away. It became what I considered culturally Christian, which is a very ambiguous phrase, but one which kept me comfortably and coasily within this little family of Christianity, while simultaneously able to push away all of the tenants that I didn't like. And at the time I thought it was a little bit cheeky to cherry pick which parts of the faith I liked and to reject those. I don't. But now I realize that pretty much all people of faith have to do that in order to maintain their faith in the societies in which we live today. So I've come to terms with that. But I've moved then from cultural Christianity towards agnosticism.

Alex Williams: 29:58

When I started to realize that your religious faith was so geographically bound up and the reason I had this strong attachment to Christianity was because of where my grandparents had come from and the reason so many of my friends had no sense of religious identity was because of where their grandparents have been born and what had been passed down to them. Religion is a kind of inherited trait, as it were. So I started to think well, maybe there's a God, maybe there isn't, but certainly religions are just cultural artifacts. And that was a big switch in my head. Because as soon as I realized that I began to question well, if the religions are cultural artifacts, why on earth shouldn't we question the very notion of God? And is God also a human invention, as invented as the religions which purport to know the God that they worship? And that moved me towards atheism.

Alex Williams: 30:59

And by the end of my university career I was a very confident and comfortable atheist.

Alex Williams: 31:05

I didn't believe in God anymore. I didn't mind if other people did, and I think that's an important branch of humanist thinking, that secular idea, but it certainly didn't have any meaning for me anymore. But atheism is not a happy position to be in for a long time because it defines you negatively. It simply says what you don't believe and says nothing about what you do believe, and for me I'm quite a community driven person, I'm social. I like to talk about ideas.

Alex Williams: 31:33

That left me in a very uncomfortable state. I wanted to be telling people what I believe in, not what I don't believe in, and so when I found the label humanism, through lots of wider reading and research, I was delighted finally here with the label, which told people positively about what I believe in. I believe that the universe can be explained through the scientific process rather than through authority and ancient texts. I believe that even without ancient texts, we can still make our moral decisions based on kindness and compassion. I believe that we should have a secular society where everyone's entitled to believe what they choose, as long as it doesn't give them any special privilege or encroach on the rights of other people, and I've been so happy being able to move forward with that simple kernel of philosophy as the core of my moral framework. So yeah, that's my journey to today.

James H: 32:26

I can see there that there's that real strong association with what it means to be humanist.

Alex Williams: 32:33

I mean, that is my personal journey to humanism. The important thing to me is that I can positively share with people what I do believe. I didn't like having to define myself in a negative and I find that really motivating. I think having a kind of crystal clear expression of what your beliefs are helps you make decisions, helps you reorientate yourself in confusing situations, helps you find the solve the puzzle of any dilemma that walks into your life because you've thought about I mean, a lot of people don't think about their moral position, A lot of people don't think about their identity in that way, which is fair enough, but for those of us that do, it's really motivating and energizing to have a framework like that which helps you navigate your way through the complexities of life. Maybe a good way of sharing what humanism means to me is to share a poem, A poem I've written which is called what's a Humanist? And if it doesn't fully answer the question, leave it in Ryan's chains and rhyme is always fun.

Alex Williams: 33:41

What's a humanist? They trust in methodologies, objective and specific. They describe observed phenomena in a manner scientific. They reject all explanations couched in ghosts or ghouls or spirits. They circumscribe their arguments with naturalistic limits. They ask to see the evidence before they reach conclusions. They prefer to confess ignorance than make up false solutions. They try to meet all human beings with kindness and compassion and to treat all other animals in corresponding fashion. They have no evidence of afterlife, so reasonably deduce that this is the one life that we have of any earthly use. They put aside the magical claims of many an ancient text and instead use moral judgment to decide what to do next. So in answer to your question, having thought the whole thing through, I'd say it sounds a lot like me. Would you say it's like you?

James H: 34:37

When was it you said about discovering you were humanist, about discovering you were gay? When was it you discovered that you were a poet?

Alex Williams: 34:44

That's a very kind question. I've always been a keen writer. Right from primary school. I enjoyed getting out my pen and paper and scribbling ideas down and falling them into something solid which I thought was worth sharing with others. So in that sense I've been a poet since my earliest years and I think it's one of those self-fulfilling prophecies, because I was writing and putting my poetry out there as a child. I had lots of supportive adults around me who were giving me really positive feedback, saying oh, we love this, or let's pin it up on the wall or let's put you into this competition, and so I genuinely saw myself as a poet, even from a little kid just scribbling down Dobro. So I've got a lot of adults to thank for giving me the bug for writing and I have to say it's not always an enjoyable one.

Alex Williams: 35:34

Writing is a relatively solitary past. You have to chain yourself behind your desk and get your laptop up and spend hours just writing away by yourself when you could be out there actually enjoying life and socializing with friends. So I sometimes think of it as a bit of an irritating obsession, but it's an itch I have to scratch and I always enjoy the end products. I love having things which I feel have been prepared and sculpted which I can share with people. I think some of my most enjoyable writing is playwriting as a consequence, because, even though the writing itself is still solitary, the ultimate objective is to bring a group of people together, not just a cast of people who are going to rehearse the piece and then perform it, but also an audience who are going to watch and hopefully give you lots of feedback afterwards, and that's why I'm really happy to kind of get out there and share my poetry as well. I love reading my poetry out loud because, again, it's another way of inverting that feeling of writing being solitary and bringing it back to the communal event.

James H: 36:36

Yeah, and we look forward to hearing more as well. And are you working on anything at the moment? You mentioned playwriting. Is there anything in the works? Yeah, there are a couple of things.

Alex Williams: 36:45

So the poetry that I'll be sharing with Central London Humanists is from a collection I've written called Secular Verses and it's currently, month by month, being shared with the readers of Humanistically Speaking magazine. I don't know, james, if you're a subscriber, I heartily recommend it. Maybe we'll be soon. Yeah, please do sign up. It's completely free and they'll drop it into your email inbox every month and it's just a space where humanists get to talk about kind of contemporary issues, topical debates, and share different points of view. And I love it, because when you talk about humanism to people who aren't humanists, they often think, oh well, they must all have the same point of view on everything, which we certainly don't, and often that's one of the difficulties of humanist clubs as well, or societies. I've tried to run one a few times at the school where I teach and it's so difficult because we all gather together, sit and agree with one another for half an hour, which is not very gratifying, humanistically speaking, is deliberately subversive and puts controversial positions as well as competing points of view, and I just have a little poet's corner at the back of that magazine each month where I share some of these poems. So that's something I'm working on.

Alex Williams: 37:59

I work as a singer as well as a writer, often performing under the name Tiger Jazz, and, as the summer has come to a close, a lot of my gigs this year have wrapped up now. I think the next busy period will be Christmas, but I love doing summer gigs, just getting out in the park and singing some of my favourite songs from the Great American Songbook. I also run an open mic night called the Dial Up, where we share, yes, poetry and song, but also we have people come and do whatever their creativity might be. We've had magicians, we've had dancers, we've had people come and share sections from novels they're working on. I love how varied it is and, although I don't advertise it this way, I often think of it as a sort of secular church, because as humanists we don't really have a place to come to regularly as a group together to just enjoy being with each other and celebrate life and celebrate our creativity and our human potential.

Alex Williams: 38:56

The Dial Up is a space where you can do that. It doesn't matter what your faith is and whether you have none. You can come along and just be playful and share your poetry or music or song, your ideas. Just finish working on Heart's Pride, where I was singing again as Tiger Jazz. That was great fun. So yeah, I'd like to keep myself busy. James, let's put it that way.

James H: 39:17

The community is important to you, and that's one of the things that I think is very difficult to replicate, particularly for people who've left faith. It's one of the things that faith does very well and it's something that we should take more seriously, I think, in atheistic, humanistic groups, but also that ability to come together in song and celebrate the arts collectively as well. So thank you very much for organising all the things that you do and bringing more art to the humanist movement.

Alex Williams: 39:54

I think the work that central London humanists are doing in creating a community of humanists across London is fantastic, because without it you can feel alone. Even though we know that the largest sector of the population now are non-religious, it's still religious groups, as you say, which often have the strongest sense of community because they have something active which they gather around. They have festivals fixed in their calendar year. I'm glad to see Darwin Day celebrations and World Humanist Day celebrations increasing in their reach, but they're still very much under the radar for most people. Alan de Bouton, his book Religion for Atheists, suggests we should do these things called agape dinners. We're kind of once a month, humanists gather at a fixed place, a large communal space where we could be together as a community and have a dinner together and just get to know each other and socialise. And I think in a way, that's what you guys are doing in central London humanists providing that space. So yeah, thank you.

James H: 40:55

A pleasure and long may it continue. I think we are seeing a certain rise in the interest in coming along to these events and definitely looking forward to hearing more from you next week. So yeah, I guess. Final question If anybody wants to follow everything that you're doing, what's the best way to find out more?

Alex Williams: 41:14

If you're on Facebook, then you can either go to Tiger Jazz to find out more about my singing or the dial-up to find out more about the open mic. But there's much more detail on my blog, which is the dial-upblogspotcom, and that will list all of my future performance dates. It's got videos and photos. It's got scripts and writing Everything you'd want to find out about there.

James H: 41:39

And, if I may, could I ask, just before we go, would you mind to share us perhaps one more poem that you think is speaking to at the moment?

Alex Williams: 41:48

Yeah, I'd be delighted to this. One's called Hummingbird and as an English teacher I'm an avid fan of a poet called Gerard Manley Hopkins, who wrote with something called Spring Rhythm, which has got this delicious bounce on the page. I tried to replicate that bounce. He often writes about nature and the beauty of nature, which is something I feel intensely, which is another reason I adore his poetry. But he would always end his poems with praise God or some sort of indication of God's might in creating this natural wonder. And I just wanted to appreciate the nature without the necessity to take that last step. So this poem uses the hummingbird as a symbol of nature's beauty, but then just stops. It doesn't need to invent something supernatural to have the appreciation of nature's wonder Hummingbird. What on earth more wondrous than a hummingbird exists? Nature's glory floating sharp, a sliver silver in a liquid air, a slash flash, blue of slicing, vibration, mocking gravity, drinking deep. The leaves of floral nectar hidden from less specialised imbibers, bobbing wonder, flit of beauty, pinnacle of process, evolutionary cousin of all life.

James H: 43:20

Alex Williams, thank you very much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Alex Williams: 43:23

You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

James H: 43:25

Alex Williams there poet, teacher, playwright, author, all-round lovely bloke. It was really nice to meet him at the events last week. Mark, what are your thoughts on Alex's contribution last week?

Mark A: 43:39

Yeah, so I think I mean I've met Alex now a few times, because he actually gave a talk to us about a year ago when he shared some of his poetry and I attended a couple of events that he's staged since then, because he does work, as you mentioned, with as a playwright. He also helps other people I think the term is a dramaturg, somebody who helps other people develop their own plays so I've attended some of those as well. So, yeah, I think, in terms of what he has to say, I mean in terms of the interview, I think that was a particularly interesting insight because you know, he's not well, he did quote, he did have some poems in there as well, but he was really talking very thoughtfully about his experiences and his journey and what I liked about that was that he does talk about his own individual experience and that's very interesting and it also tallies with a lot of what we heard from other speakers about a bit of a struggle really, in some ways to distinguish themselves from, you know, the background they came up with and the values they inherited, to sort of try to define themselves, and I think he very much talks interestingly about that. But I think he also has some really interesting insights, which expresses an interview about what he thinks the value of humanism is in society and how it can play a positive role and the way in which I think it can provide that framework and that for ideas and values for individuals looking for that and more widely so, and I share that, but not in any sort of authoritarian way. It's, you know, it's for people who want that and who want to express that.

Mark A: 45:18

In terms of his contribution on the night, I mean he's, you know, he was, he was brilliant. I mean he he's got such an engaging personality, such a natural performer and entertainer. But he also woven amongst his poems, again, his story which he expressed there, but in a very engaging way. I think he's won everybody over and it was, it was, you know, it was that it was what you wanted, it was, it was, it was funny, but it was also moving and and you learn something it was insightful as well. So, yeah, I mean I heartily recommend him. If anyone's booking humanist events or any other event, but particularly events, I think he would be a massive asset.

James H: 45:58

Yeah, he's a natural performer. I felt like he he's ready to go at the drop of a hat he can. You know he turned up. He said I can do five minutes, I can do an hour. He's just got so much content and such a comfortable there on stage.

Mark A: 46:11

Well, certainly include, linked to the dial up, alex's blog and his live events and also his recent works in the show notes and also I mean he is a performer, but I would just say what you see is what you that's the real Alex as well, because I've spoken to him now a number of times and chatted with him and he is exactly as he appears he's. He's completely authentic and just a very nice, very nice man, as well as being a very talented performer.

James H: 46:36

Absolutely Now. Each week we aim to address one of your questions through our mailbag section and I think, mark, we have one question that's coming this week I think is well suited to you and your background and interest. So this comes in from Scott Jacobson in Canada and he asked why are there so many or any bishops in the House of Lords, particularly when Christianity is now a minority religion within the UK? So nice controversial topic for you to start on there, mark.

Mark A: 47:07

Yeah, so it's. It's. It's frequently referenced by humanists and others, secularists and others, that the UK is the only country in the world, alongside Iran, so just one of one of only two that actually have clergy in our legislature as of right. Obviously, there will be many clergymen who will have been elected in different circumstances. I mean, obviously people think of the admirable Bishop Desmond Tutu, who, who famously sort of flew the flag for anti apartheid reform in in South Africa, but he was elected and deserved his spot on merit.

Mark A: 47:46

Whereas in England, in Britain, in our, in our parliament, we have, I think it's about 25 bishops who are just there as of right, and they're all from the established church, which is the Church of England, the Anglican Church, and so obviously that's that's not something that's just happened, it's something which we've inherited over and they've been in existence for hundreds of years, and it goes back to the reign of Henry VIII, when England was England at the time broke away from the Church of Rome, ceased to be a Catholic or cease to be formally a Catholic country, and the, the head of the church, ceased to be the Pope, it became the King, as it was, you know, the head of the head of state who is the sort of the supreme head of the Church of England and originally Henry VIII himself actually remained a Catholic in his teachings and in the dogma, but over over the next couple of rains, the monarchy became Protestant and this country has been therefore a Protestant country ever since, and the Anglican Church is a form of Anglicanism, is a form of Protestantism. So that's really where we are, broadly speaking, with a few, a few bumps on the road and and that's, and as such, you know, the Lord's spiritual were part of, were part of the, the legislature, and it's never really being changed. And I mean we can speculate about why that would be. I mean, we're a country which has never really undergone a major revolution or we've never lost a big war, so they haven't been the sort of wholesale changes to our Constitution which happened in many other countries, which resulted in clergy being removed from the legislature. So in a sense it's a sort of a product of the fact that we've had quite an easy ride historically in some ways, and it is increasingly seen as an anomaly that we still have these bishops and they're only drawn from one church.

Mark A: 49:47

Sometimes the church responds by saying, well, ok, fair enough, let's have, let's resolve this problem by having clergy from other churches will have, will have, you know, catholic bishops will have imams, will have rabbis, chief rabbis or whatever. But that's just from a humanist point of view. That's just compounding the problem. It's just, you know, we're getting even more clergy. We don't want. We don't want more, we want less. So, yeah, so it's. It's something which I think the church is very aware of as being an oddly, but they're also very keen. The Church of England is to hang on to that because they see that as being something very important, and it does have a real world impact as well in terms of affecting discussions around things like gay rights or marriage law, marriage law laws, reform to the marriage laws, including allowing humanist marriages, that or fertility issues and reproduction matters and all those sorts of things which a Christian voice is still very prominent and disproportionately so yeah, our system do you think?

James H: 50:48

which do you think is a better solution? Also having religious leaders from other faiths in the House of Lords or just removing the automatic places for bishops altogether?

Mark A: 50:59

Yeah, I mean I would favor I think that's the humanist UK position is the latter to get to simply remove them? Because I don't think it's. I think there is a tendency amongst, amongst the sort of opponents of secularism, to actually see sort of secularism and atheism and humanism as a sort of a common foe. So therefore I think you could simply see a solid block of religious representatives in a reformed law to an expanded religious lobby. Acting is a quite concerted group. They might disagree on some things, but I think they'd agree on a lot of things. So actually that would compound the issue. So I would go with the HUK position of simply removing them, and I believe that that's currently the position adopted by the opposition, the Labour Party that they would reform the House of Lords, including, well, I think, a wholesale reform of the House of Lords, but that would include removing the Vishops.

Mark A: 51:56

And it's interesting that for a long time there were no senior politicians really who identified as non-religious atheists. I mean, I don't think I'm not sure any of the most senior ones currently identify as humanists, but certainly currently the Labour Party and the previous two were all atheists and said so and Nick Clegg, who was Deputy Prime Minister, did sort of identify as an atheist, briefly, and half-atheist. We can debate that, but so it's becoming more common for senior politicians. Can you be half-atheist? Well, yeah, I think he famously described himself as an arm atheist An arm atheist, but he certainly was on that road. So that's a bit of a change because, as we know, in America you can't really be an atheist and be a politician and stand much chance of getting elected. So it's a promising sign, even if we still have prayers in the commons, and that has an impact as well, because it allows you to secure a better seat for the debate. So, yeah, there's a lot that needs to be reformed in terms of embedded religious privilege within our political system.

James H: 53:11

There's clearly still plenty to discuss and be worked on there in the UK, but if you would like to submit your question to any of our members here, we'd be happy to address them on the podcast. We'll leave the email address in the show notes. We have now finally set up on Twitter as well, or X, so you can find us at humanismnowpod or on Word. Send us a message on there if you'd like to submit your questions. That's a wrap for another week of Humanism Now, mark, thank you very much for your time.

Mark A: 53:48

Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, James.

James H: 53:51

It's a great podcast as well.

Mark A: 53:52

I think you're doing a great job. I think the one thing I would probably highlight at this stage is that we are very much looking forward. We're looking to encourage people to come along and volunteer and work with us to help stage events and run the group. We already have a very active group of volunteers committee members who do a lot of work, and it's a lot of fun. We work together as a team. It's a good way to make friends and just do something really fulfilling.

Mark A: 54:20

So we are looking for more people to come, step forward and help us run events, so we can do more events like what humanism means to me, one which was great fun to be involved with. And if you would like to do that, you don't have to join the committee, you don't have to commit to doing a lot, just something small, just one event, whatever. Then please do get in touch with us. I'm actually the current volunteer coordinator and you can get through to us on that issue and indeed on pretty much anything you want to talk about us on, and that's with info at centrallondonhumanistsorguk, and I think James is going to share that link as well. So you'll have that.

James H: 55:03

Absolutely. We'll put the link in the show notes to get in touch and, as mentioned, we're always open for new voices and to meet new members in person or online. Anything you can do would be greatly appreciated. So with that, thank you all. Thank you for listening and until next time.