Humanism Now

35. Lindsay de Wal on Redefining Chaplaincy & the Rise of non-religious Pastoral Care in the NHS

• Humanise Live • Season 1 • Episode 35

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"Transcendence is the connection with something wider; the world, the cosmos, nature, other fellow human beings, and doing good in this life"— Dr Lindsay De Wal 

When Dr Lindsay De Wal became the first non-religious head of chaplaincy in the NHS, she redefined what spiritual support can look like in modern healthcare. From sceptical colleagues to international media headlines, her appointment marked a turning point for inclusive pastoral care. 

In this powerful and personal conversation, Lindsay shares how she built a humanist framework for care grounded in deep listening, horizontal transcendence and unwavering compassion.

In This Episode

  • Why only 4% of hospital chaplaincy visits serve non-religious patients
  • How the Netherlands became a global leader in humanist pastoral care
    What “horizontal transcendence” means—and why it matters in non-religious care
  • The art of active listening and the power of silence in emotional support
  • How to become a humanist pastoral carer—and why demand is growing fast
  • The rise of the Non-Religious Pastoral Support Network across the NHS

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James Hodgson:

Across the UK, tens of millions now identify as non-religious, yet public services, especially in healthcare, have often struggled to reflect this shift. Nowhere is this more apparent than in hospital chaplaincy, a service historically rooted in religious traditions, yet tasked with offering emotional and existential support to everyone, regardless of belief. Research shows that only 4% of hospital visits by religious chaplains are to non-religious patients, despite more than half the UK population identifying as non-religious. This suggests that when NHS chaplaincies teams are exclusively religious, the pastoral needs of millions go unmet.

James Hodgson:

In 2018, dr Lindsay Dwyer became the first non-religious head of chaplaincy in the United Kingdom's NHS. A trained counsellor and humanist pastoral carer, lindsay took on this landmark role as the lead chaplain of the Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust. In 2021, she was appointed to the head of chaplaincy and pastoral care team at the Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundations Trust, one of the largest NHS providers in the UK, where she now champions person-centred, inclusive spiritual care for people of all beliefs and none. She's also the chair of the Non-Religious Pastoral Support Network and has received numerous accolades for her work, including the National Health Service Journal's award for helping to diversify the NHS chaplaincy services. Health Service Journal's award for helping to diversify the NHS chaplaincy services.

James Hodgson:

I'm delighted that Dr DeWaal joins us today to explore how chaplaincy is changing and what truly inclusive models of care looks like in practice, from end-of-life support to the power of listening without judgment. Lindsay joins us to discuss the values that can unite us across belief systems and how humanist approaches are reshaping spiritual and pastoral care in healthcare settings. Lindsay Llewellyn, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now, lindsay.

Lindsay de Wal:

Llewellyn, Thank you for having me as well. James Glad to be here.

James Hodgson:

And congratulations again on your landmark and groundbreaking appointments that you've achieved. But if we could start at the beginning, please could you tell us more about your journey into the pastoral care profession and at what stage you identified as a humanist pastoral carer?

Lindsay de Wal:

Yes, of course I think I start with the latter because I was always quite an inquisitive child. I was told very philosophical from the start. According to my mum, I didn't speak until I was five and I came out in full sentences. According to my mom, I didn't speak until I was five and it came out in full sentences. I don't know if that's true, but that's my mom's perspective.

Lindsay de Wal:

But I was always very much keen about exploring life and what it meant to be a life, and questions that you don't always have immediate answers to, such as why are people, for instance, born rich or poor? Why do people hurt each other? Why do you get up in the morning? What motivates you? And when it came to deciding what you want to do for the rest of your life, when you're a student and needing to select a course, I kind of wanted to do something that grabbed my heart and was aligned with my values and exploring those questions of life, what it means to be alive, and I couldn't really find anything other than, for instance, psychology and looking at, for instance, how people are doing mental health wise. But that wasn't really aligned with what I wanted because I'm not interested in specifically diagnosing people and having particular labels assigned to them.

Lindsay de Wal:

So I thought maybe it's worthwhile exploring psychology, until I saw a university solely dedicated towards humanist chaplaincy, and that was at the University of Humanistic Studies in Utrecht, and they looked at all of those kinds of things I was so keenly interested in about worldviewing, theology, sociology, psychology, all of the different kinds of ways of how to live a good, moral, ethical life. And that's yeah, that's been since I started. I fell in love with it and that's yeah, that's been since I started. I fell in love with it and that's what became well, me living that profession in real life. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to have found that.

James Hodgson:

Yeah, that sounds like it was perfect timing. So is it more common in Holland for there to be more humanistic pastoral care and chaplaincy?

Lindsay de Wal:

It is. It's also different cultural context, because I was quite naive in that sense, thinking I'm just going to fly over the pond, it will be exactly the same Dutch English. It's going to be quite similar, right? It's only an hour distance and also time zone wise, but that couldn't be more true. Obviously it is still a very much Christian country. The UK. You also have the bishops in the House of Lords, for instance, and in the Netherlands it is more secularized.

Lindsay de Wal:

They also developed that university I just spoke about quite recently, after they established the Humanist Association in Holland. So that was after the Second World War. It was Jaap van Praag who actually started that Dutch Humanist Association because after the Second World War he felt that there was an erosion of a community of those that were identifying as non-religious. They didn't have anywhere to go other than the Social Democratic Labour Party they had at that time, but that community sense had ceased to exist because it just became the Democratic Labour Party. So he felt out of sheer necessity of humanity, so a call to humanity to not again have a world war in the sense of where people understand human values and connect with each other, and potentially that's the world war derived from nihilism. He founded that Dutch Humanist Association, and that was right after the Second World War, and that's how that university then as well, developed. So it's very much more ahead of its time compared to the UK, where we only had the non-religious pastoral support network since 2016. So you can see the difference there.

James Hodgson:

Yes, huge difference in terms of timeline. So was it quite? It sounds like it was a bit of a culture shock then, because I was interested to learn about when you may have realized that pastoral care could be offered from a humanistic perspective, but it sounds like actually it was introduced in that way. So was it quite different to learn that actually in the UK it is much, still much more embedded in religious traditions?

Lindsay de Wal:

it is, and particularly when you look, for instance, at the health care sector, because you've got many different areas of institutions maybe police, military, education, prison.

Lindsay de Wal:

Healthcare has been there for chaplaincy since the start of the NHS. We link it to the National Health Service and that was predominantly a Church of England role, so it was all Church of England that actually started within healthcare chaplaincy and then it developed into other faith-based practitioners that were added to it, still usually from that point of view of christianity. So may that have been free churches that were added, for instance, or baptist or quaker, and then it became more other faiths, such as muslims, seek, hindu, and then, all of a sudden, we had these weird people knocking on the door that were humanists and had no kind of link to a higher power or a god or gods in that sense, but were completely yeah, how do you say that horizontally transcendent rather than vertical transcendence in that sense in 2016.? So it was quite a shock, like you say, a culture shock with oh wait a second we hadn't thought of other people that might be non-religious, that might want this service or could provide this service in chaplaincy.

James Hodgson:

Yeah, so what were the main challenges or questions that you faced in those early years, 2016 to 2018, entering the UK Health Service, presenting yourself as a humanist chaplain? What was the feedback or initial response that you were receiving from colleagues and patients?

Lindsay de Wal:

Yeah, it's funny because I recently teach as well for the new school secretary in counselling, recently teach as well for the new school secretary in counseling and some of these students and they're preparing for job interviews and come questions that might be asked, particularly as a non-religious or humanist practitioner, and I was starting to write down the questions I've been asked on my journey into it and it's over 60 questions long, james, I kid you not, but it's the basis of how I can pass on how their responses might be towards it.

Lindsay de Wal:

Funnily enough, people that are patients or service users never queried my non-religious status or humanist status. They actually really welcomed it, particularly if there were no religious or if there were face-based, because we see people of any kind of background. They would be either intrigued or just happy that there was somebody lending a listening ear in times of their need. Also, for me to still refer onwards if they needed a specific ritual of a particular faith resource within our multi-faith and belief team, I think it was mostly a shock for people that work as chaplains, within chaplaincy departments specifically, and that's also what I discussed within my phd I think it's because it rocks the bedrock of chaplaincy services, also needing to prove its validity amongst many other different well-being services, also in light, for instance, of psychology.

Lindsay de Wal:

so if you were to look at, for instance, hierarchy of needs, you know having a roof over your head but also funding for the service. People might want to diversify ideally on paper, but when it comes to the nitty gritty it might look like if we're going to diversify and put a humanist in there as well, is that going to cost another post for somebody who might be face-based? So that is the crux in that sense, and the friction when it comes to the practical nitty gritty, and that's something that's really key. How can you actually go from surviving as a service where you're trying to put your hands out for funding to thriving? And that comes with actually making an impact with your service and measuring it well, qualitatively and quantitatively, with how to add to it.

James Hodgson:

It shouldn't ever be at the expense of inclusion of all faiths and beliefs, and when, in 2018, you became the first non-religious head of chaplaincy in the NHS, did this feel particularly groundbreaking at the time, I thought it was normal.

Lindsay de Wal:

Coming from a Dutch background, I thought, yeah, this is something we have in Holland.

Lindsay de Wal:

And then, all of a sudden, all of the phones were ringing and we got many media requests that weren't just limited to the Netherlands or the UK.

Lindsay de Wal:

I eventually had people pointing out that they were discussing my appointment in Australia, on some radio channel, for instance, and many different varieties of reactions, from very positive to very how do you say conservative, in the sense that they were worried about what it would signal.

Lindsay de Wal:

So I became a symbolism of is this a way to get rid of chaplaincy of religion, particularly in a secular institution such as the NHS and within the healthcare setting? So there was a lot of challenge, I would say, and that included nasty comments, as you can imagine, of course, with free comments online or particularly somebody who sent to my work address at the time in Buckinghamshire a threatening letter that Jesus died for me all the way from Texas, usa, along with leaflets how to get to heaven, which you can only do, apparently, from the USA according to that leaflet. So it was a very interesting time and for me it was a signal of okay, I need to become not just a symbol of this is the humanist coming in to secularize everything. But hello, my name is Lindsay. I am, like you, a chaplain who really cares about human beings, and I happen to have a non-religious belief that I, too, care about, like you do, from your faith-based perspective.

James Hodgson:

That's shocking that someone would go to such an extent. But what was the response from your religious colleagues around you and were there any more well-meaning sort of concerns or questions or assumptions that were raised? You had to counter at the time.

Lindsay de Wal:

Yes, First of all, I think I couldn't have been here and I want to show those accolades to people who are faith-based within the chaplaincy field, because we have many advocates that were able to open up the door for myself and other colleagues coming into the chaplaincy field, saying we do need to include people of non-religious beliefs and this isn't a threat, it's just an extra promotion of chaplaincy service in general. So that was absolutely amazing. Devotion of chaplaincy service in general. So that was absolutely amazing. So I never discounted it towards people who were hesitant because they had a faith. It's more about the personality of that particular individual. Just to be clear on that as well.

Lindsay de Wal:

I think those that were very hesitant, they had questions around. Well, do you have any kind of way of praying with people? How do you offer salvation at the end of life? What do you do if people say, is there a heaven, for instance? But if you're the only practitioner at the time and people ask you to do some religious kinds of ritual? So all of those concerns that were narrated from the framework that they've only known that was particularly Christian and not even other kinds of faiths in that sense, but particularly a Christian framework that we were entering into and those questions I've explored with an inquisitive and curiosity-based stance with them, with what does it mean to you? What do you do? This is what I can do and travel with, but it's never to replace. We work within a team.

James Hodgson:

Yeah, I'm sure there's lots that can be learned from each other in that environment and I imagine it's very personalized to the patient as well. So there's it's good to have that diversity of views within the staff yeah, exactly so the phrase spiritual care can mean different things to different people. How do you interpret spiritual care in your work?

Lindsay de Wal:

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that is often debated within chaplaincy and wider context in that sense as well, because everybody uses spirituality in so many different ways and you start looking up concepts or definitions.

Lindsay de Wal:

There are many different ways of how to engage with that concept.

Lindsay de Wal:

What I've drew on as a developer of the years that I've now been in this position and I've done a lot of teaching on it as well to clarify my position as a humanist point of view is, from a spirituality point of view, you can connect to a higher power of God, so those that are faith-based, where you have that transcendence of something that's greater beyond you that you connect with, which is absolutely valuable for somebody who has faith in God or a higher power.

Lindsay de Wal:

For me, as a humanist, I don't have that link that travels up. For me it's that transcendence, so something that's beyond me that I connect with. It's not just Lindsay, but my connection with something broader and wider, with the community around me. So horizontal transcendence, the world, the cosmos, nature, other fellow human beings, and doing good in this life that I'm given and that for me is more than enough because it transcends who I am and adding to that overall love, compassion of my fellow human beings and world travellers, if you're looking into the naturalistic world as well, and world travellers if you're looking into the naturalistic world as well. So that's something that I clarify with spirituality and spiritual existential stance.

James Hodgson:

I love that framing of it, because I think this point about transcendence or connecting to something bigger than ourselves is often critique that we have to face, and talking about it as more of a vertical transcendence and they're spreading outward rather than the horizontal is a nice way of saying it's the same process, it's just the fact that it's different directionality is a nice way to increase that empathy across the divide. I think so. I love that way of looking at it and I know you've spoken previously about the art of listening. Why is this central to your approach?

Lindsay de Wal:

So many people are not heard on a daily basis and if you just imagine a conversation that you might have with a friend, a partner, a family member, we often think that we listen or, for instance, that you just want to be heard about something that you're going through at work.

Lindsay de Wal:

But actually what often happens is or you go and input your own experiences into it, such as I had a dream last night oh, that's strange, I had a dream and you start talking about yourself, or people start giving you advice, for instance, rather than just hearing you with what you're going through.

Lindsay de Wal:

And actually really actively listening to somebody can be so healing in itself and when people feel that they have the time to share whatever that might be without somebody wanting to interrupt with their voice, opinion, thoughts, own experiences. So active listening is not just being silent all the time, but most of it is actually you can have a whole conversation where you say nothing at all and it's just body language, but reflecting back what people have said, and they might not even have heard what they've said until you reflect it back and it can really unlock certain things for people where they might decide to do something because they've heard their own words mirror back to them or they question it all of a sudden with do I actually mean that when I say that that's really interesting that you picked that up, Because we are constantly looped in our own mind with what we might think. But when you test it out with somebody else who's really there, with you walking alongside, all of a sudden you start querying it Is this actually what I believe and think, or should it be challenged?

James Hodgson:

That is always a surprise. That experience, I think, is universal, of saying something and then immediately recognizing that perhaps that's not what you think, or that you've surprised yourself. That's something that you think, yeah. And so are there any practices that you think everybody could adopt or simple things that we could all tricks you could teach us, perhaps for better listening?

Lindsay de Wal:

I think it's pausing, and this is really hard. It sounds easier to say it, but pausing your judgments for just a bit, you might have them in your head. Keep them there for the moment as you listen to someone and practice that silence, Because if you're in a conversation with just the two of you, there's always somebody who will fill the silence. Let it not be you for once. Just extend that convert zone where you feel uncomfortable. You want to chip in, you want to say something. Extend it, count to 10, and let the other come back with whatever they are thinking about, Because conversation driven by the thoughts in our heads that we're formulating and sometimes somebody needs that extra time to work it through. So silence is a good thing. Allow that space. So that's one of the easiest tips that I can give you today Count to 10.

James Hodgson:

I'll put that in practice, but maybe not while we're recording the conversation. A podcast is difficult. And how has your background as a counselor influenced your approach to care?

Lindsay de Wal:

I think for me that has a lot to do with the skills that are similar to a pastoral conversation.

Lindsay de Wal:

So it's the act of listening, it is how you summarize things back, the feedback, for instance, that you give. It is potentially the posture that you hold or the awareness of your reflective practice that is required. So reflection in action, such as postpone the judgment that I was talking about before, what's going on in your head, what are your needs as a practitioner versus the person you're listening to, and being able to temporarily put that to the side and also to reflect on action. So, afterwards that you have the conversation, have clinical supervision, for instance, to talk it through with somebody else that's in the field, and I think those are really good handheld practices that can really come into both fields. And that was also from a research where the chaplains identified with other practitioners such as counselors or psychotherapists. That's something that does overlap and that's absolutely fine. The difference usually that they pointed out is that it's less medicalized of these other kind of well-being support services. It's very flexible chaplaincy and, of course, that spiritual layer and ritualistic care that is often provided, and they're specifically trained within those areas.

James Hodgson:

Yeah, and do you think there's something that humanistic carers?

Lindsay de Wal:

so I guess not just non-religious, but there's something in beingistic carers, so I guess not just non-religious, but there's something in being humanist which brings something distinctive to the bedside I think actually, when I was reflecting on particularly, what do we bring differently to other faith-based practitioners is, I think we all start with person-centered care and meeting the person where they're at. Nobody should should be there and if they are, that's not great practice Proselytize their own faith or belief. You're there for that person in general. So I think what we add is choice for somebody who wants to speak to somebody who's like-minded of a non-religious belief system and like you mentioned in the introduction, for instance, david Savage's research when he was at a London trust, only 4% of people who are non-religious had that support given within a very, very large trust and it's very little percentage for a large population that's non-religious. To caveat that that's not because faith-based chaplains don't care about people who are non-religious, but most likely linked to people feeling it's not for them because of that like-minded status.

Lindsay de Wal:

So there should be an option, there should be a choice that people can go for, and that's why it's an add-on to have non-religious pastoral care. Then on top of that, what we can offer is non-religious rites and rituals. So often at the start, when I was getting questions, you can just do pastoral and spiritual support but you can't do the religious bit and that's what they kind of describe chaplaincy within healthcare, pastoral, spiritual and religious care. But religious care, when you break it down, is all about the practice of a community that comes with rites and rituals, and for non-religious people you have that too, but just in a different way. May it be weddings, funerals, baby namings, all of the kinds that you might see in faith-based practices. But just from a non-religious point of view.

James Hodgson:

And we're seeing the numbers of those increase all the time as well, and the number of celebrants and ceremonies in the UK is growing and I think it's the same around the world as well. So I want to, in your role, in your leadership role that you've taken on, what practical changes have you made or have you seen that's helped ensure that chaplaincy services are inclusive and available and, I guess, accessible, promoted to all patients?

Lindsay de Wal:

Yeah, I think there's a lot to do around the marketing of what chaplaincy means. So that starts with education. Now, that's not easy. In a very large trust We've got roughly 90 and a half thousand staff members are often the key to getting referrals and for people to even point towards the chaplaincy service. So there's been a lot of education towards any kind of healthcare provider, may it be, for instance, instance, the doctors, consultants and nurses, to also just reception and porter staff, because everybody plays a role about what is chaplaincy and it's not just call the vicar and faith-based chaplains agree with that that there's a very narrow-based view of chaplain equals call the vicar.

Lindsay de Wal:

So a lot of teaching. So that's a practical step. What is spirituality? What we just discussed about Also, for instance, signage explaining the different kinds of faith and belief systems that we represent, and an exciting project that I'm doing now, actually within the hospital, is getting together loads of faith, belief and non-religious traditions to have a digital virtual space, like when you have an open house with 360 cameras that can make you move through the different rooms.

Lindsay de Wal:

So you can see a house inside. Yeah, we're going to do that within our chapel space and in nature around there for people to actually engage when they're bed bound with different faith, belief and non-religious traditions and resources. So we're again showing that it's a plurality of different kinds of values and worldviews that comes with the chaplaincy team and that's publicly shared. So influencing national chaplaincy so anybody can use that, and also nationally looking into, for instance, job vacancies and adverts with how that's written is another critical point that I've been trying to raise and put my two cents in, because we're often recycled kind of job descriptions where people just use back in the day we need a vicar, somebody who's done theology and I don't know has experience in the church, rather than we need a practitioner who's trained as a spiritual and pastoral care provider, who's done X amount of hours and has the skills too. So that's a lot of reworking that on national level.

James Hodgson:

Yes, it's very interesting and I'm glad you've spoken a lot about what we can learn and the similarities that exist across beliefs, and it's something which I think we should look to emulate and we can praise religions for is that letting people know that there is always someone there to talk to a community leader who is there to listen to them as and when they need it, is a hugely important feature. Recent guests said we're about 2000 years behind in terms of telling people that we can be available for them. So, yes, it's great getting the message out there and utilizing marketing, I think, is really important as well and letting people know that this is available to them, and I wonder, with that in mind, if anybody was interested in either finding out about pastoral care or perhaps becoming a carer themselves. Where would be the best place to start?

Lindsay de Wal:

becoming a carer themselves. Where would be the best place to start? You can go to your webpage and just type in become NRPSN volunteer. That will lead you to the Humanist UK pages where you can actually apply or read more. If you want to read more first, you can apply afterwards, which will then land you on our accreditation courses, where we will assess skills for you to be equipped to go into any kind of sector that you might be interested in, to become a humanist pastoral care.

Lindsay de Wal:

So it's not just solely for healthcare environments, but we also have people in prison. We also have people in education. Some people work with homeless charities, for instance, as well, and we just got the green light last year that we're now welcomed into the military as well, although that's still a longer route because it's just new and people do need extensive experience. That's something that somebody can work towards as well, and otherwise you've got me too, so you've got my link tree, I think as well. That's attached to this podcast or the video. You've got my contact details then, too, by Humanist UK, so you can email me too if you're interested.

James Hodgson:

And are we seeing requests for support? I guess the question is are we seeing the number of carers match the requests for support that are out there, or is there an increasing need for more pastoral carers?

Lindsay de Wal:

There's really an increasing need for pastoral carers. We now actually get flips out of the table because we were not really welcomed before in 2016. And we really had to work hard to get into organizations. They now see the added benefit of having somebody to offer that choice, that like-minded choice, of a non-religious pastoral care. But now we are struggling to provide it. So we have shifted with the non-religious pastoral support network, where we train volunteers to high quality of standards and we got a lot of people about 40 percent within overall nhs trust as a volunteer and 22 people are actually salaried, which is well about a yeah, a massive increase. It's 2016 in that sense, but we are getting our requests. I really want somebody who's a humanist and we don't have anybody in the area. So if you're interested, there's definitely a need and there's definitely people who want you. So if you feel called to it around meaning and purpose and giving back in that horizontal transcendence line, it's really a worthwhile profession.

James Hodgson:

And thank you for you've been one of the driving forces behind that acceptance and the growing understanding and need for humanistic care since 2016. I think you've contributed greatly to the change in attitudes that we've seen and, with that in mind, what would you like to see going forward in terms of either changes in chaplaincy or looking at the NHS more broadly, either?

Lindsay de Wal:

in humanist care or care in general. I think it's two-pronged. So within any kind of institution that pastoral care gets embedded, it's still sporadic with, for instance, education settings, because there's no kind of set way of how you do chaplaincy with, for instance, higher education or even lower education. For that part, the military is an exciting development as well, but they require two years usually of equivalent to a curacy, which is usually, of course, from Christian perspective experience. So that takes a little while for them to get in. But to see that flourish, because the Dutch have done that again for ages and they had a humanist who was the head of the military chaplaincy. But then I think the other part of it is as well that within healthcare chaplaincy that I operate in, that we really need to start demonstrating the validity of the service.

Lindsay de Wal:

It's not just because chaplaincy was there from the start with the NHS that we have a place at the table. You've seen the recent news with, of course, nhs England becoming the Department of Social Health and Care. Instead there's lots of people that are going to lose their jobs, there are redundancies. You need to demonstrate your service for it to survive and there's still very little qualitative and quantitative data around trusts being collected for chaplaincy services. So I plead as well within my research, start researching the validity of chaplaincy, how it's different to other services, what's alike with it, and to also lobby government to make it a recognized profession. So under HCPC registration now it's just desirable to be part of the uk board of health care chaplaincy. If you apply for jobs which holds the professional standards for the field, with no other kind of psychotherapeutic background or psychology background, would it be desirable to be registered with the bacp or bps. You have to do so. There's something about professionalization of the service to get with the times and to show rigor to who you hire within any kind of institution.

James Hodgson:

I hope that those interpersonal skills and those inter-human skills that you've mentioned listening, care and probably getting trained in those areas as well will become more valuable in society, because these are the things that we can't replace.

Lindsay de Wal:

Yes, our humanity.

James Hodgson:

Thank you so much for your time, Lindsay. Before we go, we have our standard closing question, which is what's something which you've changed your mind on recently?

Lindsay de Wal:

That I stopped caring what other people think, and I give that advice to anybody else who would love to listen and finally let go of opinions of others. I think the journey that I've been through has really told me that go with what your gut, your heart and your values tell you. Been through has really told me that Go with what your heart and your values tell you and that's how you lead a meaningful and purposeful life. Stop worrying about what other people think. I think that's the best piece of advice that I had that I didn't integrate until very recently.

James Hodgson:

Is this an added benefit of non-judgmental listening?

Lindsay de Wal:

Yes, to yourself as well, not just to others.

James Hodgson:

We'll put that in practice, Lindsay Duval. Thank you for joining us on Humanism Now.

Lindsay de Wal:

Thank you for having me.

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