38. Julie Pham on Mastering Curiosity as a Practice

“Curiosity isn’t a trait — it’s a practice. And like any practice, we have to keep doing it even when it’s hard.” — Dr. Julie Pham

In this episode of Humanism Now, we explore curiosity as a practice. Dr. Julie Pham — social scientist, community builder, and author of the bestselling 7 Forms of Respect® — joins us to unpack how curiosity, respect, and communication transform not just workplaces, but our relationships and communities.

As the founder and CEO of CuriosityBased, Dr. Pham teaches leaders and teams how to embed curiosity into daily practice — through self-awareness, relationship-building, and clear communication. Drawing from her personal story and professional insight, Julie shares how our assumptions about listening, respect, and disagreement shape the way we connect and collaborate.

In this episode:

• Why curiosity is a skill, not a trait — and how to develop it
• How to approach difficult conversations using the CAFA method (Context, Action, Feeling, Ask)
• The difference between hearing and believing — and why it matters
• Respect is relative: how upbringing and culture shape our communication
• How curiosity bridges differences — even across generational, cultural, and political divides
• When not to have the conversation: the two questions to ask before engaging

Featured Resources:

• 📕 7 Forms of Respect: www.formsofrespect.com
• 🧠 CuriosityBased: www.curiositybased.com
• 🎥 TEDx TalkCuriosity as a Practice: Watch here
• 🎧 Curiosity at Work podcast: Listen here

Follow Dr. Julie Pham:

• 📸

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Julie Pham and CuriosityBased
• 1:15 The Three Elements of Curiosity
• 2:44 Why We Think Others Don't Listen
• 5:17 Relationship between Curiosity & Empathy
• 7:31 Recognising Feelings and Understating You Want
• 12:13 Preparing for Curious Conversations - CAFA Method
• 12:22 Multiple Truths Can Coexist
• 17:24 The Paradox of Tolerance
• 22:14 [Ad] Transformative Living Radio
• 23:00 (Cont.) The Paradox of Tolerance
• 23:04 How Beliefs Influence our Ability to Be Curious
• 25:45 How has Practicing Curiosity Changed Julie's Views
• 27:29 Benefits of Practicing Curiosity - Lifelong Learning
• 30:29 Advice for Approaching Difficult Conversations
• 32:05 Changing minds on Curiosity as a Trait

Transcript

James Hodgson: 0:01

Welcome to the Humanism Now podcast. I'm your host, james Hodgson. Curiosity is woven through humanist philosophy from the ancients to modern movements, prioritising learning from evidence, re-enquiry and critical reflection. It's considered not just a virtue but an important intellectual and moral quality that helps us care for each other and our world. This week, we explore curiosity not just as a nice-to-have trait but as an active practice. We're joined for this week's episode by Dr Julie Pham, a social scientist, author of the Seven Forms of Respect and CEO of CuriosityBased, a training company empowering organizations and leaders to practice and benefit from curiosity. Dr Pham is an award-winning leader who applies her community building experience to strengthen teams. She's also a TEDx speaker, former journalist, a non-profit executive who holds a PhD in history from the University of Cambridge. Dr Julie Pham, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Julie Pham: 1:00

James, thank you so much for inviting me.

James Hodgson: 1:02

So let's dive straight in. What is curiosity? Can you help us define how you teach curiosity and how we should think about it in a more proactive manner?

Julie Pham: 1:26

it as a practice, and it's something that we do, and sometimes we don't do it, and it boils down to three elements this practice, self-awareness, relationship building and clear communication.

James Hodgson: 1:32

Perfect. So could you break those three elements down for us a little bit?

Julie Pham: 1:35

Yes. So the first element is self-awareness. So that's actually about practicing inward curiosity why do I think what I think? What am I thinking? What's that based on? The second is relationship building. So that means how to get curious about other people, to ask them questions and to also share ourselves. So, for example, james, it's not just about me asking you questions, I also have to share with you about myself, and then you're going to have reactions to what I share and that back and forth. We're practicing reciprocity there, and that is the basis of relationship building. And then the third element is clear communication. So this is how do I listen to understand, how do I ask questions when I don't understand? And how do I tell specific examples and stories, not to speak in theoreticals and abstracts.

James Hodgson: 2:26

That's fascinating. And so, in your experience teaching the practice of curiosity, do you find that there's commonalities in terms of which of those three types of curiosity most people are good at practicing, or can it vary quite a lot?

Julie Pham: 2:44

It can vary and also there's what people think for themselves and what they think for others. One of the things I do when I go into organizations is I will actually do some real-time polling and I ask people these different factors, how would you rate or what do you think is lacking among your colleagues? And so it's make time for self-reflection, build new relationships, deepen existing relationships, listen to understand, ask questions when we don't understand, tell specific examples and stories. So all of those align to what I just shared around self-awareness, relationship building, clear communication. And then I ask them what are you lacking? And so, james, what I often see people say is other people, my colleagues, there's a real lack of listening to understand, and yet that is consistently the thing that is rated the lowest for themselves in terms of.

Julie Pham: 3:37

I don't have a problem with listening People. They don't think that they're lacking that, yet they think consistently others are lacking, that Something that people do will say that they are lacking is making time for self-reflection, and that is that self-awareness part, and that's because our world is so busy. So those are the things that are pretty consistent is other people don't listen, but I listen, I can make more time to self-reflect. And the way that people typically react to that, when I then debrief with organizational leaders, with the managers, is they think, oh, we got to fix this, how do we get people to listen better? And I then say, no, ashley, let's understand.

Julie Pham: 4:18

What do they mean by listening and why do people not feel listened to? Because clearly people feel that they are listening to their colleagues and yet they don't feel that they are listened to. And so, in that, what does that mean? Does that mean that they think that being listened to means I get what I want, I see change. So this kind of gets to how, instead of listening, is a problem to solve, to look at this and say, hmm, what is this teaching us? And so even to get curious about that.

James Hodgson: 4:41

It's very interesting, and it sounds from what you've explained as well, that for most of us when we undertake this exercise, we're still thinking about if the point that we mostly criticize in ourselves is not making time for our own self-reflection. That's still not necessarily showing empathy and curiosity for others, and actually it's saying so. We're very good at spotting when we don't feel heard, as you say, or where others may be lacking in curiosity. But if our own self-criticism is we're not paying attention to ourselves, it's still very self-oriented. So it sounds from what you've explained that curiosity is very tied to empathy and compassion for others.

Julie Pham: 5:17

Absolutely, because we also have to practice curiosity with ourselves, and so I think that is actually something that is lacking. That also people say that they don't make time for, and it's just because go, go, go and they're thinking of how do I fix this, how do I get to the next step? And we don't pause to say, hmm, why am I even feeling this way? A lot of my work is also around respect and how respect is relative and it's objective, and a lot of that actually has to do with how do we get curious around respect, and so people will say, oh other people, I'm being disrespected, and yet what we don't say is why am I even bothered by this? How do I want respect? What's that? Based on? What experiences in my life have informed how I even have this expectation? For example, some people get really bothered when people don't use honorifics and others that's not a big deal. That is actually cultural, that is shaped by our experiences. So to even understand that is helpful to then understand huh, why am I bothered by not getting this thing that I think everyone should know, everyone should do, and yet that other person might not have that experience?

Julie Pham: 6:31

In the US, people will even call their parents by their first names. In some cultures you would never do that. Oh my gosh, you would never do that In Vietnamese. I'm Vietnamese. American hierarchy is embedded in my language. I am only who I am in relationship to someone else, so I'm always trying to figure out are you older than me? Are you younger than me? Are you older than my parents? Are you younger than my parents? Do I call you older aunt or younger aunt? Do I refer to myself as older sibling or younger sibling? And so hierarchy is embedded in my language and that influences how I think about hierarchy, which it's not that big of a deal, and yet in some places it's just oh, we wouldn't. Hierarchy is considered bad.

James Hodgson: 7:10

That would mean, really, this practice of curiosity should be present throughout every interaction, every engagement. I imagine if you know someone incredibly well, by that point, you probably are in a position to be able to work on assumptions, but it sounds like. Yet with every new person that you meet, you have to restart this process, in this practice again. So I wonder then what daily habits do you teach, or practices do you teach to intentionally build this practice of curiosity and to instinctively act with curiosity?

Julie Pham: 7:43

The biggest one is just pausing Before we jump, just actually pause and even take stock of huh, how am I feeling about this? And sometimes it can actually be really helpful to write it down and then to go oh, it's not just one feeling. There could actually be multiple feelings here, and sometimes it actually takes us a while to get to the feeling that might be very vulnerable to share. I'll give you another example. I was having a disagreement with someone, and this lasted months and, by the way, another thing is, james, it takes time, it's not going to be resolved right away and just acknowledging that. So I was having a disagreement with someone where I thought I told them something and then they didn't do the thing that I told them, and I just couldn't understand why. And so we were just talking past each other, because, even though I was saying why did you do this, what I was really asking was how could you possibly have done this? When I told you not to, what I really wanted was them to admit that they were wrong. That's what I was really listening for, and so I had to even get to a point where I could acknowledge that, because in my mind, I'm practicing curiosity. I want to know why you did it and I also want you to admit that you did it and that you were wrong, because that person, when I asked them why they did it, they would talk about why they were justified to do it, which is a different thing. And my first reaction, my first feeling, was I felt wronged, and where I had to go to was I felt hurt and I felt betrayed, and that's a lot harder to admit.

Julie Pham: 9:12

And once I got to that part, I was actually able to return to the conversation and I was able to ask different questions and this time I shared hey, I said this and this and this. When I said this and this, did you hear me? Yeah, I heard you. Did you believe me? No, I didn't believe you. Oh, okay, that's not about me. I can't help it if that person didn't believe me, because there are all these other reasons in their life that have them decide what they believe or they don't believe. That's beyond my control. But, james, it took me months to get to that place of asking and breaking down and asking different questions. So, in terms of what are some daily habits, pause and then also just recognize that it's going to take time.

Julie Pham: 10:01

And the other thing is, throughout all of this, I was sharing with other people and I wasn't sharing in a way. Validate me, make me. Wasn't she wrong? It was actually. How do I see this differently? And because I think that's actually one mistake that people make they share with people and they're just looking for validation and maybe in the beginning that's what we need. We need to be soothed, but at some point we have to decide are there other ways of seeing this? And to ask people for that and you're not asking them to solve the problem or to give you advice that's another thing. Don't give me advice, just help me, try to see this in a different way.

James Hodgson: 10:39

Yes, that desire for validation is very strong and I can see that's the first thing to overcome and accepting that. That does take time as well, I think, allowing yourself the space for those feelings, but I do love this idea that actually comes down to understanding first what you want from the situation and then designing the questions around that, rather than, as you say, just going in for what we might think of curiosity, which is, I'm just going to ask questions to understand this person's point of view, because that isn't going to solve the root problem.

Julie Pham: 11:12

The question that I think I'm asking might not be the question I actually want answered, and because so often the questions that we ask are often laden with our own assumptions and what we think that person already understands, and so for us to even just be willing to acknowledge hey, however, I'm asking this question, maybe I've got to try different ways of asking this question, Because it's not just about oh, they're not hearing the question. This is the thing I had to no longer. In that example I shared with you, I was conflating hearing and believing. And how often do we do that? Oh well, I emailed you, I text messaged you, I wrote it. Why didn't you do the thing? And we don't ask well, did you believe me? Did you agree with me? We assume that if we communicate something, that that person's going to agree, and I don't think that person actually even was aware of that until I broke it out into two separate questions. So it's not that they were consciously doing. I hear you, but I don't believe you.

James Hodgson: 12:06

It was only until I asked the question or questions that we were able to identify oh, this is what's happening not with the questions to the other party, but framing how you feel, your interpretation of the situation, the assumptions that you might be acting on, before you then engage with that more fact-finding exercise.

Julie Pham: 12:35

Yeah. So actually we have this structure about approaching difficult conversations with curiosity, and it's got the acronym CAFA, c-a-f-a, and it's to share. Hey, here's the context, the action, this is what you did. Feeling, this is how I felt about it. And then, to also allow for multiple feelings I feel confused, I feel disappointed, I'm angry, I'm annoyed. And then to ask a question, and sometimes that question, jane, is about asking permission to have the conversation. Are you open to hearing how I feel? Are you open to talking about this? Can we talk about this? Sometimes it's a leading question.

Julie Pham: 13:12

You were late and I felt dismissed, I felt worried. I felt concerned Were you helping your mom? Because I know she's sick? And then that says I know things are going on in your life. I'm not just trying to have you react, because a question will invite a conversation. And there have been times where I want to go in and be like you were wrong and then I remind myself, okay, ask a question because that's an invitation to a conversation.

Julie Pham: 13:37

And I had been on that too, actually, I'll give you an example of someone where I was on that end, someone came to me. It was a colleague and I had basically committed to a sponsor, but my colleague was supposed to deliver on it. So I was like, hey, I got us money, now you go do the thing. And then she came back and she reminded me this is what you did, and how can we collaborate? And I realized, oh, that was not very collaborative of me, but if she had said you just told me what to do, then I would have been defensive. But instead she asked me how can we collaborate? And then it gave me a moment to recognize oh, how did she see this? And then we entered a conversation.

James Hodgson: 14:21

That's great. So just to recap the stages. So it's context.

Julie Pham: 14:25

Action, feeling, and then ask and this is asking for understanding A lot of times, people think that this is asking for change. Can you not do that next time? Now, here's the thing If they've done it numerous times and you've talked about why it bothers you and all of this and it's getting in the way of your working together or whatever, then you can ask for a change. In the beginning, though, just ask for understanding, because when I do that, I've been often really surprised by what people say and it exposes me to different logic. I mean, I'll give you another example of when I lived in Vietnam and this actually goes to the forms of respect.

Julie Pham: 15:03

This was over 15 years ago, so I think things have changed, but people would cancel on me last minute all the time, and I just couldn't understand why I was just. Why don't they give me some heads up so I can do something else? And so I asked a Vietnamese friend and he said oh, no, no, no, they know, but the reason why they wait last minute is because if they told you ahead of time, that would convey that they were making a choice, and the choice was not to be with you. When they wait last minute, it's an emergency, they can't do anything about it. Oh, so they're being respectful. Yes, james, I never would have come up with that logic. Nowhere in my experience would I come up with that logic. And then it helped me understand. Oh okay, this is just a different logic here, and I'm not saying my logic is better than their logic, and I got to understand.

James Hodgson: 15:51

Understanding those norms and, again, until they're questioned, we don't second guess them ourselves because they are the norms, again, that we're surrounded by. So, framing it around, building up to even asking, just to have the conversation, and I've certainly found my experience where approaching a difficult conversation and not knowing what to say, not knowing how to start it, just that question. I'll also add in the context action and feeling, I think next time. But even just the process of asking is this a conversation we can have? Allows that person also the space to explore okay, why might they want to be having this conversation? What could have been misinterpreted? And you find that the person comes better prepared and is really more curious themselves and that's opened up.

Julie Pham: 16:32

And sometimes you can even ask is this a conversation we can have? Would you rather have this over text or a phone call? Because I've had people say let's have this over text. All right, that's okay, just because I might want to have a voice to voice. If they are more comfortable writing it out, we can do that too, and so even just sometimes asking about the after asking permission, how would you like to do this? When would be a good time?

James Hodgson: 16:59

and that's setting up a dynamic of respect as well. As you mentioned, if you went straight in with something more direct or accusational, then you are creating a very adversarial dynamic, but allowing the collaboration to create the framework or the arena that you're going to have this conversation in is already setting the tone of respectful correspondence and negotiation.

James Hodgson: 17:24

one of the areas that we end up debating quite a lot or discussing quite a lot within some of the humanist groups that I'm involved in, is around the paradox of tolerance, which I'm sure you're very familiar with in your work, and I wondered how you feel the practice of curiosity plays into that. Do you feel there are some limits to curiosity? There are some views or points or behaviors for which you might say actually no, in that instance you don't need to take the effort to understand the other person's point of view. That's crossing a boundary. I just wonder how you tend to practice that yourself or advise for others.

Julie Pham: 18:03

So I am an extreme relativist and my training as a historian has really informed this, because whatever we believe to be true now, history will say something later on. And so I take the position of I really want to understand where they're coming from. I'm going to give an example. I was talking to a Mormon acquaintance, them. I'm going to give an example. I was talking to a Mormon acquaintance, but it was over dinner and was a social setting. It was just the two of us.

Julie Pham: 18:30

And this was maybe this was five, seven years ago or something like that, and we were talking about transgender people. And he said I just don't believe in that, I don't believe in trans. And because he said, they are choosing this discrimination. And I said well, I don't think that's the case. I think that they feel that they were born into a gender that's not their own and so that's why they make this transition Like, no, I don't believe that they are choosing this, because the way that you were born is the way that you were born.

Julie Pham: 18:57

And then he pointed to his skin, to his forearm, and he said I am a black man, I am proud of being a black man. I get a lot of discrimination. I didn't choose that there are choices. With gender, though, there's a choice, and so that really helped me understand where he was coming from, and it was a logic that I would not have even imagined, because that's not my experience, and so just by entering this conversation and talking about it, I was able to understand where he was coming from, and so when we shut down, we actually deny ourselves of all of these possible reasons that people have, and we could agree to disagree, and yet I got some insight that I couldn't have imagined for myself.

James Hodgson: 19:42

And when you do that practice, does that also help you find and formalize new and potentially better or more persuasive arguments when you encounter similar views the next time?

Julie Pham: 19:56

I mean, I don't think of it in terms of persuasive arguments, because I really am open to. I just want to understand where you're coming from. When I hear persuasive argument, I think, oh, I'm trying to persuade you to think one way or another, whereas I'm really just tell me what you think I mean. Another thing that was really a huge source of debate was vaccination and anti-vaxxers, and this was amid COVID, and what I saw was a lot of my friends who were loving, caring people were just ah, people who are anti-vaxxers, are this, this, this and this? And yet I talked to people who are anti-vaccination. There was a whole range of reasons and I got to hear them because I want to understand. I'm vaccinated myself. I don't think that makes me better than you. I made a choice and you've made a choice and I want to understand your choice. Yeah't think that makes me better than you. I made a choice and you've made a choice and I want to understand your choice.

James Hodgson: 20:48

Yeah, I think that's definitely an area we've probably all been involved in fairly strong debates in recent years, and you're right. Actually, when you listen to people's arguments on both sides of that, most of them come for either personal concern, certainly concern for their children but we often frame it as though, as you say, it's more of a selfish decision but, yeah, it's a very sensitive topic to engage with people on.

James Hodgson: 21:15

So, yes, trying to understand, I can see that being a really hugely important way of building empathy, building, trust building, um uh rapport before you can then approach that difficult conversation.

Julie Pham: 21:26

And James, I'll say with that, as I talk to people, I realize we are all scared, we're all scared, and so what was really happening was my fear is more justified than your fear, and that's what we were really arguing about. And fear is so emotional and personal, and yet people would try, oh, let's talk about the science. And at the end of the day it came down to fear. And then that also has to do with well then, what makes us feel safe?

James Hodgson: 21:51

And it does seem to be these core, foundational desires that actually underpin a lot of very strong beliefs, and I've seen very interesting practices where people do chip away at that to see that actually at the very core layer, as you said, when you tried to get what is it I want? What is it I'm feeling a lot of sometimes very diverse opinions can be driven from very similar or identical emotions, and so I'm wondering as well. Obviously we talk about beliefs a lot here, so do you think that curiosity can coincide with holding very strong beliefs, or do you think that beliefs can get in the way of our ability to practice curiosity?

Julie Pham: 23:10

I think that multiple truths can coexist and I can believe one thing and someone else can believe another thing. And how do I honor that they believe something else? And that their belief doesn't deny my belief. It's just we have different ways. So I'll give you another example.

Julie Pham: 23:26

The Vietnam War ended 1975. In the US they call that the fall of Saigon. In communist Vietnam, where I lived for years, they call it Liberation Day, the day that the North liberated the South. And in the South Vietnamese refugee community that I belong to, we call it the day we lost our country. And all three are true and they're just different perspectives. So I've actually in recent years been referring to myself as South Vietnamese because I want people to understand that we came here as political refugees, not seeking economic freedom.

Julie Pham: 23:58

Just a side note here is just in the US there's this idea of the American dream. With immigration there's push and pull oh, I'm coming here for economic freedom because the US is so great. There are also the push factors of what pushes people to leave their homeland, and so when we center one story in the US, it's like oh well, because it's the American dream, we're actually denying the other one, which is people felt compelled to leave. I came with my parents as a two-month-old boat person. We had a great life and yet, because of the lack of political freedom, we felt compelled to leave. You know your question about belief. I lived in Vietnam. My dissertation was about the South Vietnamese communist revolutionary who led Jen Van Zou, who led the communist revolution against the French in 1945. I heard his beliefs and I honor that, and that doesn't make mine any less valid either.

James Hodgson: 24:51

This idea of holding multiple truths as well and allowing multiple versions of the truth to be held in, either personally or within the dynamic I think is so important as well. I really take away from this the importance of language and that, again, I guess, coming back to norms, the way in which we describe events or, in fact, our understanding of a particular term and the way it's used could be completely different for someone else and the assumptions that they may have around the use of language. So it really sounds like you're advocating for an attitude of constant learning and that there's always more that we can discover when we're engaging in these conversations or practicing curiosity. And I wonder, how has the practice or actively engaging with curiosity in the time that you have, how has that changed your views, either on yourself or how you see others?

Julie Pham: 25:45

So I got to tell you that it wasn't actually until I became a community organizer did I start enjoying curiosity as a way to build relationships. Because when I was an academic I thought, of curiosity.

Julie Pham: 25:58

Oh, I'm a curious person. It was about knowledge accumulation and all kind of also knowledge hoarding and academia is like, oh, how do I share all of this and prove other scholars were wrong? And this is why I'm a curious person. It was about knowledge accumulation and all kind of also knowledge hoarding and academia. It's like, oh, how do I share all of this and prove other scholars were wrong? And this is why I'm right? And it wasn't until I came back to Seattle and my family has a Vietnamese newspaper and I started doing this and I realized that, oh, there's also learning and curiosity that can happen just from people around me, and so that I actually am really proud of my very diverse network of friends.

Julie Pham: 26:29

I mean, I just celebrated my friend's 80th birthday. She is almost twice as old as me and I also have friends who are teenagers and so many different ways of diversity and that's because I've actually, over the past 15 years, really opened myself up to learning through people.

James Hodgson: 26:47

I've heard that's One of the great benefits of forming communities is intergenerational friendships, being friends with people of different generations outside of your family, and also the diversity of people within your group different views, different experiences, different identities particularly speaking with people from different ages and understanding, because they will have a completely different experience in life in their upbringing, in their formative years, and what you can learn from that. And I wonder, in your experience practicing curiosity yourself but also training others, particularly in organizations, in the workplace and I can see there's also benefits in personal lives and any organization or group which people are in. What are the other tangential benefits that you've seen when people put these practices into place or they try to systematically be a more curious organization or group? Are there any other benefits outside of the areas of empathy and understanding that we've discussed?

Julie Pham: 27:54

it's outside of the areas of empathy and understanding that we've discussed. I'll say that. So I only work with organizations, the workplace and yet what we are guiding them to learn because actually I think that this is something they all know it's just more about how do we have permission to do it? Because in the workplace sometimes it's solve problem, solve problem. And we're saying pause and actually look at what this problem is trying to teach us and listen, and they take that and they apply that to their home lives. And that's why, james, I feel so passionate about this work, because school ends and yet learning doesn't end.

Julie Pham: 28:27

And the workplace there's so much opportunity for this to be a learning organization and if we can, if employers can actually let their teams be okay, we're going to be a learning organization. And if we can, if employers can actually let their teams be okay, we're going to be a learning organization. We're going to continue to learn and adapt here. They will be able to face any challenge that comes up and they will be able to take that to their home lives too. It's when I work with teams. I can't tell you how many times people say, oh, I never paused and thought about this, and they're then thinking about their conversation with their spouse or with their children or with their friends, and how do they apply that there? We don't get these skills in school. It's kind of survival of the fittest, and yet if we actually make time in the workplace to do this benefits the rest of our other parts of our life.

James Hodgson: 29:19

Yeah, I can imagine you've saved many domestic relationships without realizing it. Well, I suspect it's the first thing people think of when they're doing these exercises, and we're talking about assumptions and how to how to oppose disputes. It's going to be the people that they're closest with.

Julie Pham: 29:37

And even actually, when I guide people through that CAFA structure that I was telling you about earlier and I actually say don't come up with an example at work, think about something outside of work or at a past work experience. And the reason why is because I don't want people just to commiserate with one another and validate oh yeah, I know that person Because we can be more objective when we're sharing examples that people don't know about, and then it also helps us relate. Oh yeah, these come up all the time. I mean, actually, when I hear from someone who's like I can't think of a difficult conversation I have that I didn't have, that I didn't address, I'm like really, I wonder if other people would say that about you.

James Hodgson: 30:18

Well, yeah, I'm sure everybody can find a difficult conversation that didn't go the way that they wanted it to, and so, before we wrap up, I mean there's so much useful information that you've shared here that we will include links to everything. Obviously, do follow Julie if you want to learn more, and I can strongly recommend accessing the resources or get in touch for the full training. But if a listener is tuning in today and they're contemplating how to approach difficult conversation or they are trying to understand what is the one piece of advice you would give someone, just to say here's the first thing you can do to increase your practice of curiosity.

Julie Pham: 30:55

To pause and to ask yourself two questions, as you're entering this difficult conversation. So the first question to ask is do I want that person to learn from me? Yeah, that's why I'm going into this conversation to persuade them. The second question to ask is am I willing to learn from them? And to answer that question honestly? Because I might not be willing yet, I might not be willing to change my mind yet, and if that's the case, then don't go into that conversation, because that means you are just going to be performing listening and it's okay to not be ready to have that conversation because you are not ready to learn from them. About the possibility that you might be learning from them. So go practice with someone. Go practice. What questions could I possibly ask this person? Go talk to your friend about that Brainstorm questions to ask, not how to get them to do this, and so ask yourself am I willing to learn from them? And if you are not, do not have the conversation yet.

James Hodgson: 31:56

Brilliant advice. And our final question what's something which you've changed your mind on and what inspired that change?

Julie Pham: 32:17

as a trait, and it was in this publicly humiliating experience where I was presenting on my work and an audience member really challenged it. Did I then start this process of thinking of curiosity as a practice? Because I couldn't understand. Well, wait a minute, she's a curious person. How could she say that? How was I feeling about it? And so, in that, I used to think of curiosity as a tree and now I think of it as a practice, and that's actually what I talk about it. And so, in that, I used to think of curiosity as a tree and now I think of it as a practice, and that's actually what I talk about in my TEDx talk Curiosity as a Practice and I actually talk about the evolution of how I got there.

James Hodgson: 32:44

So, yes, if you'd like to hear the full version of that answer, please check out Julie's TEDx talk. But, dr Julie Pham, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Julie Pham: 32:54

Thank you so much, James, for inviting me.