67. Meet the British Army's First Ever Humanist Chaplain with Padre Neil Weddel & Clare Elcombe Webber

“Chaplaincy is defined by function, it’s not defined by belief.”

Padre Dr Neil Weddell, the first ever non-religious pastoral carer (humanist chaplain) appointed in the British Army, joins Humanism Now alongside Clare Elcombe Webber, Director of Humanist Care at Humanists UK. We explore what chaplaincy really is, why this appointment is a historic shift for belief-diverse Armed Forces, and what humanist pastoral care looks like in practice for serving personnel and their families. 

Topics we cover

• The evolving purpose of Chaplaincy
• Why the Army’s first non-religious chaplain is such a landmark moment 
• “Presence”, confidentiality, and sitting outside the chain of command
• Stoicism, existentialism, and humanistic psychology as practical frameworks for moral and pastoral support
• How humanist chaplaincy strengthens, not replaces, religious chaplaincy
• Where chaplaincy fits alongside welfare and medical support in a whole-person wellbeing system
• Ceremonies in military life: inclusive funerals, namings, and personal milestones
• What it takes to become a non-religious pastoral carer, and the pathway into the profession

Resources & further reading

• Royal Army Chaplains’ Department: https://www.army.mod.uk/learn-and-explore/about-the-army/corps-regiments-and-units/royal-army-chaplains-department/
• Army Jobs -Chaplain role overview: https://jobs.army.mod.uk/roles/royal-army-chaplains-department/chaplain/
• Non-Religious Pastoral Support Network (NRPSN): https://nrpsn.org.uk/
• Humanists UK - First-ever humanist pastoral carer in the UK Armed Forces:  https://humanists.uk/2025/10/07/first-ever-humanist-pastoral-carer-in-the-uk-armed-forces-2/
• Soldier Magazine - “New kinda padre in town”:  https://soldier.army.mod.uk/issues/november-2025/update/new-padre

Transcript

A Historic First For Chaplaincy in the UK Armed Forces

James Hogson 0:01

Welcome to Humanism Now, a podcast about secular ethics, curiosity, and compassionate change. I'm your host, James Hodgson. Today we're discussing a genuinely significant moment for the UK Armed Forces and for non-religious pastoral care. I'm delighted to be joined by Padre Neil Waddell, who has recently been appointed the first ever non-religious pastoral carer or humanist chaplain in the British Army. And by Claire Elcombe Weber, Director of Community Services at Humanist UK. The MOD is appointed endorsing authority for these new roles. Neil's appointment follows an independent Ministry of Defence review commissioned in 2020, which recommended the introduction of non-religious pastoral support and led to the creation of this new role. It also reflects a wider shift in the belief landscapes of the armed forces, with a growing proportion of service personnel now identifying as non-religious. In this conversation, we'll be exploring what chaplaincy means in a modern, belief-diverse military, why this appointment matters, and what humanist pastoral care looks like in practice, and also what this could mean for the future of support across the UK's armed forces. Padre Neil Waddell, Claire Elkham Weber, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now. Thank you, James. Wonderful to have you both here. And thank you very much for joining us, particularly with such an important and historic announcement. Perhaps to start, Claire, if I could come to you first, and just for listeners who are not aware, what is chaplaincy and why does it matter for people of all beliefs?

Clare Elcombe Webber 1:32

So I think when people hear the word chaplaincy, quite often they think, oh, this is a Christian thing. It's about religious care for religious people when they're in institutions, hospitals, the military, in prison, schools, other sort of public institutions. But really, what chaplaincy is is how you care for the existential side of people's lives. So while chaplaincy historically was very much rooted in religious provision, the Christian church set up the first schools, the first prisons, the first hospitals in this country, and was very closely linked to military provision right from either the beginning of the modern military. What chaplaincy has become over the last couple of centuries is really how we look after people's well-being in that more nebulous way. So there is religious provision within it. So probably one of the easiest examples that people can think of is in hospitals that they might be providing baptism for babies who are very unwell or religious rights for people at particular junctures in their life. But actually, the majority of what Chaplaincy does, whether the practitioner is religious or not, is meet those everyday needs that someone might have when they're in a difficult situation. So when somebody's in the military, they're obviously facing all kinds of tricky situations in their professional life, but also they're people facing tricky situations in their personal life as well. So a chaplain can be there to provide whether it's a listening ear, whether it's to talk about big questions that people have, like why am I doing this? Why am I here? What's the meaning of it? Or, you know, those really big questions that everybody tussles with, no matter what their belief system is, those questions don't go away because you're not religious. You might just be approaching them from a different perspective. And so Chaplain C, in the way that we engage with it, is about that provision in institutions. It's working within those teams where you have different beliefs represented, where you're serving a population that are full of all sorts of different beliefs that don't fit into nice neat boxes. And we're there to meet people where they are and talk to them about what they need. And that's not about fixing things or providing solutions for people. It's just walking alongside them in that moment, whether it's a moment of difficulty or joy or something that might seem really mundane to everybody else, but it's yeah, looking after that existential aspect of people's experience. Neil, do you think that covers it?

Padre Neil Weddell 3:57

I would say so, yeah. Um, and just to fit in with the introduction aspect, Chaplaincy evolves. Chaplaincy evolves with people's needs. And I'd say that it's always adapted and it serves belief and non-belief now, because it should never depend on what someone believes. It should be open and accessible to all for the benefit of all.

Day-To-Day Work of a Humanist Chaplain

James Hogson 4:18

Thank you. And congratulations, Neil. I wonder, from your perspective, inside the armed forces, in your role, what does Chaplaincy look like on a day-to-day?

Padre Neil Weddell 4:29

In a nutshell, Chaplaincy is about caring for the Army's people. I say that because I'm in the army. We also have chaplaincy in the REF and Navy, and they also do a very similar role to what happens within the British Army. Policy would say that it consists of ethical, moral, and spiritual care. But what does that mean in simple terms? Well, day-to-day chaplaincy is really just about being present with people. That could be on exercise or that could be in the barracks, or sometimes just sitting with someone when things are heavy for them. I'd say, and the saying goes, you have two ears in the mouth and you should use them in that ratio. It's more about listening than speaking. It's helping people think clearly about responsibility or stress or dealing with ethical responsibility, particularly in this particular job. I'd say what matters most is that we sit outside the chain of command. There's no agenda with chaplaincy, there's no reporting. So what that creates is an ability to have an honest and open dialogue. Um this applies chaplaincies are religious or non-religious. It's that honesty and open dialogue that is almost like a pressure vent. It allows people to release it when working in an organization that can deal with uncertainty, ambiguity, and volatility.

James Hogson 5:51

Claire, have you found that to be the case across all areas of chaplaincy? Does the similarities?

Clare Elcombe Webber 5:57

Yeah, there's great similarities. Obviously, the military is its own unique environment and people are facing particular professional pressures as well as personal ones. But really, the role of the chaplain is very, very similar in different places. People might make different relationships. So, for example, Neil will obviously get to know the people who he's supporting incredibly well. A lot of the time, he'll be around them for a long time. Whereas a chaplain in a hospital or a prison might not have that same sort of ongoing relationship. But actually the function is remarkably similar wherever somebody is. It is, as Neil said to you, that opportunity to listen to somebody, to be with them, to provide them with what they need in that moment, rather than seeking to fix them or advise them or move to any other sort of agenda.

Historic Significance of this Appointment

James Hogson 6:42

And we touched on it briefly in the introduction, but could we draw out some more on why this is such a historic appointment? Claire, perhaps could I come to you first?

Clare Elcombe Webber 6:53

I would there's a few reasons why this is a really incredible moment. One of which is it's been an incredibly long time coming. So I've been at Humanist UK now for nearly five years, and I remember talking in my interview for this role, or for my previous role, about this exact project, that this had been something that had already been in the making for several decades, that there had already been this close engagement with the MOD to try to get them to see why this was important, why Chaplaincy should be broadened away from a solely religious provision and that it should reflect the makeup of the population. But also just thinking about the institution of the military, it's historic from that aspect as well. It is hard to drive change in the military. It is such a huge institution. It's so rooted in tradition and ceremony. And as I said earlier, you the relationship between the military and the church has been so close for such a long time that actually getting that change within the institution to recognise not only do non-religious people have these existential needs and need to have them met, but actually the traditional model of chaplaincy isn't best meeting those needs, and that having a diverse and inclusive chaplaincy team does actually enrich the offer across the military for everybody. And it makes a huge difference. So it's been a long engagement of building trust, offering evidence for why this change needs to happen, also building up things like policies, understanding that actually the framework of what makes a good chaplain doesn't have to be about their religious knowledge and skills that are built in in parish ministry. So all of those things had to be rebuilt from the ground up. So it was, and actually continue to be rebuilt as we meet different hurdles and different questions as we go on. So it's been a long time coming, and it is a big change for the military. So that's really why it's so significant.

Neil’s Path And Philosophies

James Hogson 8:43

And Neil, why was taking this role important to you personally?

Padre Neil Weddell 8:47

It's incredibly important to me because over 23 years of serving in the military before I took on this role, I've seen firsthand on operations and at home just how much unspoken responsibility people have to take on, how much it can burden them. Decisions that can't be offloaded because of the chain of command. The officer in charge can't tell when you go having a really bad day to the team because the morale needs to be kept intact, the spirit needs to be kept high. So watching that and seeing that, it really struck me how much it's needed to have some sort of fresh event release, as I mentioned earlier. The thing is, these experiences don't fit lately into medical or welfare categories. They're in this kind of grey, ambiguous area. And this is where Chaplain Sea has played such an important role to date and continues to do so in an evolving manner. Bear in mind that the army is just a reflection of society. Its people are a slice of what society is. And as the UK and the Commonwealth changes, as any culture changes, I'm humbled and I'm really privileged to see how the MOD responds to that change by introducing and enhancing chaplaincy from the non-religious perspective. And then what that means is I can come to a table now on operations, and with something like humanistic psychology, which emphasizes dignity and agency, I can help people be heard. Stoism, which I also call upon. I can help people understand what's within their control, which is the choices and the character. And then the third element, which I bring into my chaplaincy spiritual work is existentialism. It helps people take responsibility seriously, helps them realize they're accountable for how they live. So this role, it's great that it's happened because it allows me to bring those frameworks into a space where certain demographics within the military, it's genuinely needed without asking them to believe in anything first.

James Hogson 10:59

Yeah, it's interesting you draw on the Stoics and the existentialists because these are philosophies, I guess, that are available to everyone. And have you found that discussing these ideas has spread and uh started some interesting conversations in your line of work in these areas of philosophy?

Padre Neil Weddell 11:18

It's a really good point you make, James, that these don't have a belief, faith or belief structure necessarily attached to them as something central. Stoics, some were religious and some were not. Existentialists, some were religious and some were not. So this is a great neutral, past all spiritual foundation framework to use because it allows me to support people of faith and people of belief equally. And Stoism, in a way, really fits with the military mindset. Because Stuism really teaches you how to deal with challenge, how to keep a calm mind, how to keep tranquility under pressure and when all chaos is happening around you. That control bit I alluded to, it teaches people what to invest the time in and energy and what to let go of. And time and energy are some of the greatest assets when it comes to operations, because it's energy that keeps the decision making going. It's time that allows us to execute those decisions, and it's energy that allows us to do that to a level faster in tempo than the enemy. So, really, the moral component that I work within actively contributes to the fighting component of the military and its ability to do the task that it's asked to do by the country.

Creating this First Humanist Chaplain Role

James Hogson 12:40

Very well said. And you've personally invested a lot of time and energy in creating this role that you've now stepped into. Would love to understand a bit more about the process of creating and then moving into a role that previously hadn't formally existed.

Padre Neil Weddell 12:54

So the process, it was careful, it was deliberate, and it's been rightly rigorous. It's been a process that's taken many years. It wasn't about creating something overnight, not at all. The serious nature of what chapens here is how it sits in the background, quietly helping people maintain a sense of morale and focus. It's not something you just change on a win. Personally, for me, it meant learning to articulate really clearly and succinctly what non-religious pastoral care really is, to highlight to the current Japancy culture, which has been doing an amazing job to date, that that this addition to what we offer is not an opposition to religion at all. It actually works in parallel. So I'd say for me, it meant a lot of scrutiny, it meant a lot of patience. And I go back to, and this is where my chaplaincy skills came in, it helps a lot of listening, a lot of listening to the concerns and addressing him. What really helped was this. I think the turning point was the realization that recognizing chaplaincy is defined by function, it's not defined by belief. Once that was clear, the kind of the rest followed on, so to speak, naturally, more than people might expect.

James Hogson 14:14

And Claire's mentioned you've been with Humanist UK five years, that kind of coincides, I think, with the timing of the initial review. You've been on this journey as well.

Clare Elcombe Webber 14:23

Yes. I've been very fortunate and very privileged to work alongside some very dedicated, knowledgeable people. Neil's one of them, we've also had a number of people within Defence Humanists and more broadly across our community who have been really instrumental in pushing this forwards. And like we've we've said before, you this isn't something that happened overnight. It took some really careful dismantling of expectations around what people would bring to these roles. The MOD were quite open to saying, okay, we'll need to create a person specification that works across all religions and beliefs of applicant here. What does that actually look like to be a good chaplain? What are those competencies that somebody has to demonstrate? It's not as simple as it was like 30 years ago that the parish priest would just be sent into service into the army. The MOD is, as Neil said, rightly rigorous now around the candidates that they take forward. And that has been really challenging for us to think about well, how do we demonstrate that actually from a humanist perspective? What qualifications do you need? What do you need to have experienced to be able to do this? So it continues to throw us some good existential questions actually about the profession, how we develop it, what we're looking for in people. And like I said, it's been a real privilege to be able to drive that forwards with people. And it's not been an easy road and it continues to throw questions up. And I think it will continue to do that. Every time we present a candidate to the MOD, I think there will be additional questions about how does this experience mat? How do we make sure that this person can perform all of these important aspects of the role? It's certainly not a kind of one-time quick fix. We're in this for the long haul to make sure that actually this is a sustained change for the military and the people who serve.

Culture Change And Reception

James Hogson 16:08

And what has the reception been so far, Neil, since formally starting this role?

Padre Neil Weddell 16:12

I think what surprised me the most is that colleagues, how pragmatic people are. It was more about curiosity than any sort of hostility when we started to propose and develop the concept. I go back to organizations, they have policy, and then sitting next to it, they have their culture because organizations can have all the policy they want, but they are created and managed by humans, and humans are emotional. So you need to bear that in mind. It's a bit like the Myers-Briggs of where you use statistics and then you use emotions, logus or ethos to convince rather than just relying on one. So I go back to the point that once colleagues really understood that this wasn't about replacing religious chaplaincy or pushing an ideology, concerns tended to fade. Most people who really care about the soldier, who really put the military first and foremost, they just wanted to know: will this help our people? It was quite surprising, really. And as I go along, the more and more chaplains from all three services who reach out to me, some are asking me to help them with their master's work, which we all must do as part of our qualifications and development as chaplains to bring this professional credibility. They realize that with the diversification of the UK's faith and belief, they will encounter more and more people who have a belief in that faith. And they're reaching out to me in their essays and thesis that they're focusing on how do we bridge this gap? How do we make this work? Because the important thing is we're looking after people here. We're not pushing a political agenda. And that's how I feel it's been received personally and by the feedback that my chap and colleagues have provided me with.

Clare Elcombe Webber 18:03

I think Neil's really right there, that it has been an exercise in changing hearts and minds. On some aspects, we've had to take quite a campaigning position, that we've been leaning on equalities law, both in terms of the provision for people who are serving, make sure that that's equitable and inclusive and you know meets everybody's needs, but also the fact that their recruitment is lawful, as they were excluding people who were non-religious. But actually, what has been more important is building that trust and showing that our practitioners are incredibly skilled and they are worthy of being there and they can contribute something really constructive, really positive, and that the presence of non-religious chaplains really does elevate chaplaincy as a whole. Like Neil said, we're not there to destroy chaplaincy, we're not there to convert people to humanism or to take away the religious nature of what our colleagues provide, but it is adding to it and making it broader and more diverse than it was before. I do find that once we've built those connections and built some trust, then as Neil said, a lot of the concerns do seem to fall away. There's almost this sort of specter that the humanists are coming and they're gonna take down Chaplaincy. And then actually, when someone meets a practitioner and understands what we're all about, actually it's fine.

Working Alongside Religious Colleagues

James Hogson 19:18

Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, it sounds incredibly similar to Lindsay DeWal's story, who was also on Humanism Now previously, and spoke about her experience in the NHS and some of the initial reservations, but actually how allowing this space for non-religious people or perhaps those who don't want to be defined to have the choice actually enhances the overall offering of chaplaincy services. Claire, I know you work across all areas of chaplaincy and community services with Humanist UK. How do you, from those various experiences that you have in different organizations, how do you see Humanist Chaplaincy sitting alongside the existing religious chaplaincy and enhancing rather than replacing?

Clare Elcombe Webber 20:00

I mean, I think it's such an important part of what chaplaincy offers. And one of the interesting conversations that I've had numerous times with religious colleagues is actually how little of what they provide is based upon their religious beliefs or the religious beliefs of the people that they're supporting. They're all quite open in saying, well, you know, 80-90% of what I do is generic. That doesn't mean that it's generic as in like it's it's well-being services or it's services or anything, you know, but it is not based in the beliefs of either the people they're supporting or their own. And they are all, almost without exception, very keen to make sure that they're supporting everybody who needs support. And that really it's more of a almost a sector branding issue that people look at chaplaincy and think, oh, that's a Christian provision for Christian people, and it's not for anybody else. So I think colleagues seem to be very, very keen actually to embrace anything that makes their services stronger, that makes what we do more relevant, that meets the needs of more people. And it has just been that journey of making sure that they trust what we're doing and understand it. So I think also actually you're in the backdrop at the moment of potential public service cuts. NHS trusts are facing a really hard time around staffing. Prisons are also facing a really tough time around staffing. Being able to demonstrate that your chaplaincy services are really robust, they're really there for the needs of everybody, can only be a good thing from that perspective as well.

Where Chaplaincy Fits In Wellbeing

James Hogson 21:30

And how does chaplaincy fit in within a wider well-being framework? I ask because sometimes I think people might be might coming back to our you know, a very first question. I think there's still a lack of understanding broadly about what chaplaincy is, where it fits in with, I guess, counseling or perhaps mental health services. Neil, perhaps being active in this space, i in terms of overall wellbeing as a framework, where do you see chaplaincy sort of fitting in and supporting other functions there?

Ceremony And Non-Religious Ritual

Padre Neil Weddell 21:58

I think it's It just continues to do what Chaplaincy has always done historically, which is to serve people where they are. The unique nature of the British Army, which I'll speak from as an organization I'm familiar with, is you can imagine there's the medical, is the welfare, and then there's chaplaincy. Now they a Venn diagram, they do overlap those handover takeovers between all three. For instance, some of my approach us who's has suicidal thoughts. So we'd reach out to medical, and together we then work as part of policy on how to manage that situation to the best outcome of that for that person's needs. And then we could also call upon welfare, who has links into agencies and signposting. The unique nature of what we're doing is welfare medical aren't philosophers. They're not trained in exploring existentialist questions. So we create that little space for ourselves. That's where the Venn diagram does not impede upon what chaplaincy is. So I'd say religious chaplains will continue to provide their faith-based chaplaincy, their worship, and when they're asked to do it, the sacrament. But humanist chaplaincies will offer an alternative moral and pastoral-oriented framework and language for those who don't believe. So I think we will just coexist, continue as we're doing, because we'll be meeting different needs for the diversity across the army itself. There'll be soldiers who want to speak to a Christian chaplain. And I've had soldiers come to me because I am non-religious. They, for whatever reason, despite the best efforts of the chaplains and the openness and the caring nature, they just don't want to have anything to do with religion. And so I will exist to support their needs because before they introduced non-religious chaplains, we were missing that element, that silent group of people who just didn't want to approach chaplains. That includes like the LGBT plus community as well for historic reasons. So we'll coexist, we'll meet different needs, but we'll be supporting each other and looking after the soldiers and caring for them to the best that we can.

Clare Elcombe Webber 24:13

And there is also a ceremonial aspect to having non-religious chaplains in the military as well, because obviously the military is very ceremonial. There's not only centralized ritual around things that people might be familiar with, you know, naming boats in the Navy, remembrance services, passing out parades where you might be addressed by a chaplain, but also personal ceremonial things as well. So if somebody serving in the military, if they die or their family member dies and they're having a military funeral, their only option up until Neil's appointment was to have a religious chaplain leading that. And yes, you know, our religious colleagues are often very, very good at being responsive to people's beliefs and needs and would often lead a ceremony with as little religion as they're able to. Now there's more choice. You know, it can actually be tailored towards people's beliefs. So a military family can now have non-religious naming ceremonies for their children. Humanist marriage isn't legal yet in England and Wales, but it should be in due course, and that means that option will be open for people as well as funerals. And Neil has led some incredibly inclusive remembrance events as well. And I think it's really important that we're able to step up and show that even if you take the religion out of those events, they are still solemn and meaningful and connect with people, and that that is something that people need if they've got non-religious beliefs, because we don't want people to feel that they're excluded from those things just because actually the person leading it is doing so from a position of faith.

James Hogson 25:42

And we should mention Neil is also a registered humanist celebrant as well.

Skills That Make A Good Chaplain

Padre Neil Weddell 25:47

Yeah, thank you, James. Just kind of highlight some of the things that I've done in that element. I do tend to focus on pastoral and spiritual care, because as we mentioned earlier in the conversation, that's 80% of what we do, just being there with people. But so far in post, bearing in mind I only work part-time at the minute, I've already delivered a funeral, a non-religious funeral for the Special Forces, which I was asked because I am non-religious. I've was working with a group to deliver a naming ceremony. And I have just been I received an email two weeks ago to ask if I can do a wedding for some service personnel. And being non-religious and a humanist celibate approach, we tailor the ceremonies to the needs of the person. We don't have a script or certain aspects that we have to go through for any of our ceremonies. So they've asked to be married on top of a mountain in Scotland, and so I'm gonna have to put a backpack on and we're gonna go up there, and the ceremony will be tailored to how they would want it, what a ritual such as hand tang they would want, what words they would want spoken in, and what sequence. Again, I go back to the point that non-religious chapens are enhancing what chapin's offers, and we're doing it in a manner that means everybody has a choice and access to something that they may want for those key life moments.

James Hogson 27:13

Now, Claire, you said something earlier in one of your answers that I'd like us to briefly explore a little bit. Going through this process, you had to sort of explore what makes a good chaplain. So, in your experience, what are some of the traits that you think make for a good chaplain?

Clare Elcombe Webber 27:30

The whole crux of it is about your people skills, your ability to connect with people, to hold them in unconditional positive regard, to be led by what they need in that moment rather than what you think they need or your desire to fix them or any kind of outside agenda or framework that you're working to. You know, it is it's a very mindful experience, actually, because all you're you're really thinking about is that moment with that person and where they're at and how you can best be of service to them. So there is behind that, there is a whole heap of philosophical knowledge, existential knowledge, skills around actually how you help people open up, how you help them talk, how you help them explore what's happening to them, and potentially either find their own solutions or work out their own meaning to where they're at. But it is that exploratory approach rather than any kind of destination that you're thinking about. And that's really the core of what makes a good humanist or non-religious chaplain. There's also all of those other things, you know, being a celebrant is really important because you have to be able to be part of those life moments for people. Having good understanding about what people might be going through if they're facing particular common traumatic moments such as bereavement, a baby loss, any kind of grief about loss, you know, whether that is going on deployment and losing your home life, whether that is the breakup of a relationship, all of those sorts of things are common things that the chaplains come across. But really, the things that I see commonly across our fantastic practitioners is they're pretty humble. They don't shout about their skills and they are incredibly skilled. And you can watch somebody even at a conference how they connect with other people, how they make other people feel seen. And that is quite hard to quantify. And that's one of the reasons why it's been so difficult working with the MOD around this person spec, is actually, well, how do you quantify some of those really important but quite nebulous skills that we're trying to grow in people and to put into service of other people? I must say, you know, chaplains, whether they're non-religious or humanist or religious, they're some of my favourite people. And it's one of the real privileges of doing this job is seeing those skills and encountering people who have that approach to life.

James Hogson 29:50

And Neil, what are some of the skills and experiences that you've found to be most useful?

Padre Neil Weddell 29:56

The knowledge bit that Claire alludes to about existentialism, what sits behind that is I've been told never use these words because she never mentions the dinner parties because you just sound boring, but it's the feminologicalness of people's experiences. When I sit with someone, I start with a blank sheet, unconditional positive regard and empathy are the only two things that exist in that moment going forward. If that person, from a feminological perspective, subscribes to a faith, I hold that in just as high esteem and respect for that person's meaning and sense of purpose as I would to someone who says they're humanist. So though having that blank slate to begin with, I think it creates an environment and humans, we can sense things. You can sense when someone has excuses or someone's not being generous. And I don't know how you put how you describe it. When I used to be an instructor, I could feel the energy in a room drift and rise and fall, depending on how well people were listening. I couldn't explain what it was. I just knew after 20 years of doing it, I knew when to call a break. You can feel that when you're chatting to someone, if they're really listening, because is listening as in I'm hearing what you're saying, but I'm going to give you my answer anyway. And is listening where I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm going to respond to what it is that you're saying to me, and I have not made any judgment until you've finished speaking. That to me is what creates those conditions for really being an effective chaplain.

James Hogson 31:33

And Claire, if anyone is listening today and feels inspired or interested in pursuing a career in chaplaincy, what does the training pathway look like?

The Next Five To Ten Years

Clare Elcombe Webber 31:42

So there's a few different training pathways, mainly because people come to this role from a variety of different backgrounds and with a variety of different intentions. The most straightforward routine for most of our practitioners is we run a weekend skills training program, which really gives people an introduction to what is non-mous pastoral care, you know, what's this approach, how does it differ from other things? And it's about checking in with the people skills that people are already bringing with them. So it's not necessarily teaching people how to do it, although there is some of that, but that's an introduction that a lot of people go through to then become volunteers with us. But then people will also bring a lot of their own experience in all kinds of relevant sectors. And so for some people, they can do our weekend skills course, and actually that opens up enough for them to be able to go and find a paid position in either healthcare or prisons or another sector. We also support a postgraduate programme in existential and pastoral care with the new school of psychotherapy and counselling, which is it's the only postgraduate chaplaincy qualification really that isn't based in a religious approach. There are others around the country that accept people who are non-religious, but they are predominantly Christian in their content. So that master's programme really is we kind of view that almost as the gold standard of getting into the profession. It includes celebrant training. So you can come out of that master's both accredited by the non-religious pastoral support network and eligible for accreditation by the Humanist Ceremonies Network. And that really puts you on a very firm footing to go forward into a profession. Now, the military do have higher requirements than other professional roles, understandably, because obviously, if you're working in a hospital or prison, you're working day to day with a team around you who are supporting you. You invariably get to go home at the end of the day, you might be on call, but you get some separation between your work and your home life. Military service is very, very different for a chaplain. You know, you are deployable, you might end up being the only chaplain potentially in a war zone, looking after hundreds of serving personnel. You might find yourself in some very, very difficult situations or supporting people who are in some very difficult situations. So it is something for very experienced practitioners. And the majority of the candidates who we are putting forward for potential military appointment are people who've got quite considerable experience either in hospital or prison sectors or you know elsewhere, so that they've really been able to hone those skills and that they feel confident, and we feel confident that actually they're ready to take on this particular challenge. So getting to military roles is a longer path. It certainly takes some more dedication, which Neil has certainly shown over the last few years, but it's definitely worth it for people who are interested. And the steps along the way are really interesting as well. The master's programme is incredible. I'm probably slightly biased because I give lectures on it, but it gives people such a great grounding in the both the academic knowledge but also the practical skills. And then practicing in different institutions as well is incredibly rewarding in itself. You know, you learn so much about different people and how to relate to religious colleagues and how to build services that are inclusive and people's needs. And you all of those professional skills that then stand people in really good stead when they do go towards the military. So I don't want to put people off by saying the bar of really high to join the military. It's rightly high, but there's an awful lot of great stuff that people can do in between, from volunteering half a day a fortnight, if that's what people are interested in and what they can commit through to being a service lead in the NHS or a managing chaplain in a prison, and then military if that's what people are interested in.

James Hogson 35:37

And Neil, specifically looking at humanist chaplaincy within the armed forces, how do you see both your role developing and perhaps the progress of humanist pastoral care in the next five to ten years?

Padre Neil Weddell 35:52

Good question. Honestly, I hope it's unremarkable. And I say this because it should just simply be part of how the armed forces looks after its people. From a personal perspective, I'm a professional, I like to see it embedded in a professional, trusted, and effective manner. Let's look after people we ask so much from them. And I I don't want to see it headline driven. I don't want to be political. I just wanted to be another way the institution recognizes the moral and human cost of service, how it will respond responsibly to meeting that for its people, caring for its people.

Clare Elcombe Webber 36:33

I think that's exactly it. We want it to be no big deal. You know, it's it should be business as usual across all sectors that actually practitioners are inclusive, services are inclusive, and they're seen to be inclusive. Everybody knows that they can go and see a chaplain if they need something. So yeah, I'm hoping that in five years' time we never have to have that conversation of, well, what is the humanist chaplain? What you know, why are you here? What do you do? People get it and they understand, and we're just part of the furniture.

Changing Minds

James Hogson 37:01

Exactly. Well, it's been a huge step, thanks to all of your both of your huge work, effort, and time. So thank you very much. Before we go, we just have time for our standard closing question, which is what's something which you've changed your mind on recently? Claire, I'll come to you first.

Clare Elcombe Webber 37:16

It's not even particularly recent, but I've been reflecting on my role here and you know this this journey preparing for the podcast. When I started this role, a lot of people said to me, You got a real battle on your hands here. It is hard to sort this stuff out. There's so much opposition from the religious chaplains, they'll do anything to keep you out. And I was quite apprehensive about wading into it then because I thought we were not wanted here, people are actively trying to keep us out. And I'm not going to pretend that that wasn't the case at all. But actually, as time has gone on, I have been delighted by how curious people are, how interested they are in making their services more inclusive, how creative people are in actually reviewing those policies, reviewing those frameworks, trying to make sure that actually we're meeting the needs of people. It has been so heartening to see that actually this isn't really just us who are pushing for this now. You know, other people see why this is really important and they push for it too. So I do an awful lot of work in healthcare. I'm the chair of a healthcare chaplaincy body that is particularly interested in inclusion and equality. And I was in a meeting recently, and the president of the College of Healthcare chaplains, which, you know, has historically the you know, their presidents have almost always been Christian, it has a reputation for being a very Christian organization. And he said to me, you know what, I find myself now in meetings thinking, what would Claire say about this? How can I contribute Claire's thoughts even though she's not here? And it's those sorts of changes across the different sectors that I think, yeah, you know, we're we're getting somewhere. This is amazing. And it has completely changed my mind from those conversations that I had early in in my time here, that this was something that we were fighting for alone and no one else saw the value in. And it has been, yeah, a very quite a tricky but a very heartening journey to get to where we are now.

James Hogson 39:13

Thank you. And Neil, anything which you've changed your mind on recently?

Padre Neil Weddell 39:18

I used to think when it came to organizational change, which is what this journey's been about, that clarity mattered more than patience. What I mean by that is if the case was sound and people would accept it quickly. I've changed my mind about that. I know when I sit with a person that it's all about patience and not clarity, because sometimes what they're saying does not make any sense, it does not flow. I've actually realized I need to take my pastoral skills and apply that as a staff officer when it comes to organizational influence. Institutions I realize move at the speed of trust, not logic. And therefore, taking time to listen carefully, taking time to be open and to answer those difficult questions honestly and sincerely is what I've learned in my journey of working with the MOD and particularly Chapman C to change and reflect the society that it is being created to defend. That's what I've learned. It's been a valuable lesson.

James Hogson 40:25

And this has been an invaluable podcast for me. Thank you so much, both of you. Padre Neil Badell, Claire Elkin Weber. Thank you for joining us on Humanism Now.

Humanise Live 40:34

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