72. From Fear To Freedom: Reclaiming “Apostate” In Life After High-Control Religion

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Micki McAllen, known online as Apostate Barbie, spent 30 years as a Jehovah's Witness before leaving in 2021. Now based in the UK, she uses social media to raise awareness of high control religious groups, support others navigating life beyond faith, and advocate for an end to mandated shunning.

Topics we cover

✔︎ What life inside a high control group really looks like — and how coercive control works without physical force 

✔︎ The Norway Supreme Court case challenging government funding of the JWs over shunning practices 

✔︎ How to rebuild community, identity, and agency after leaving a high control religion

Connect with Micki

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/apostatebarbie/

References and further reading

• JWFacts.com — ex-Witness resource recommended by Micki: https://www.jwfacts.com
• Faith to Faithless — UK support for those leaving high control religion: https://faithtofaithless.com
• Stop Mandated Shunning — organisation Micki volunteers with: https://www.stopmandatedshunning.org/
• BITE Model of authoritarian control — Steven Hassan: https://www.bitemodel.com
• Decult Conference, New Zealand: https://www.decult.nz

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

James Hogson 0:01

Welcome to Humanism Now, a podcast about secular ethics, curiosity, and compassionate change. I'm your host, James Hodgson. Our guest this week is Micki McAllen, an online activist who goes by the name Apostate Barbie, where she raises awareness of high control religious groups and the harm they cause. Micki draws on her own experience spending more than 30 years in a high control group before leaving in 2021. At which point she lost everything overnight. Since that time, Micki has moved from New Zealand to the UK and she now supports others navigating life beyond faith and is also building a more humanist future. Micki McAllen, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Micki McAllen 0:42

Cool, thank you so much for having me.

James Hogson 0:44

I've skimmed over your story very briefly in the introduction there. So I think for our listeners, could you perhaps share your background and how you came to identify with the term apostate?

Micki McAllen 0:57

So I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, and in the Jehovah's Witnesses, they talk about apostates a lot, and it's basically what I would call the Jehovah's Witness version of a boogeyman. And so it was something that I was afraid of most of my life being called an apostate, getting to a point that I would be around other apostates, terrifying. But since leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, after being in it for 30 years, I've come to realize that it literally just means someone who leaves a religion. So it's not this big scary person that's trying to hurt people or pull them away necessarily. It's just someone who has left a religion. And I want to destigmatize the word, I guess. Especially when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses or other high control religions that use the term often and in a demonizing way.

James Hogson 1:50

So are you reclaiming the term?

Micki McAllen 1:53

Yeah. Trying to reclaim it.

James Hogson 1:55

I mentioned that you spent 30 years. So I assume that was from early childhood. At what age did you begin questioning your faith? And I guess how long did that process take?

The Weekend Wake-Up And Research

Micki McAllen 2:06

I'll give you a brief background there. So I was five when they knocked on my mum's door and she started studying with them. So it was part of my life from then until I was 15 when I got baptized in the religion at 19. And I pretty devoutly believed it for the next like 15, 20 years, however long it was. And at 35 in 2020, I all of a sudden discovered the ex-Jehovah's Witness subreddit, and from there started dismantling everything and deconstructing and realizing that I was in a cult or a high control religion and that I needed to get myself out. So the actual wake up was basically over a weekend where I just devoured everything I could find that was in the X-JW subreddit, and it led me to a website called jwfats.com where another ex-witness has compiled all of their older literature and information that they keep hidden from members. So I yeah, spent the weekend going through that, and it's just so clear when you follow the process and you follow the research that it's very much man-made religion.

James Hogson 3:16

So really it was as quick as the course of a weekend.

Micki McAllen 3:20

Yeah.

James Hogson 3:20

And would you say you went from a hundred percent belief down to zero, or were you already questioning when you decided to enter the subreddit?

Micki McAllen 3:30

So it was during COVID. So there are a lot of conspiracies going around, like conspiracy theories and things. And my aunt was sending me a lot of them, who was never a Jehovah's Witness. In debunking that, I came across information about propaganda techniques and brainwashing techniques, and I was unable to look at that and then look at a Watchtower magazine or any of the publications that the witnesses have without seeing it fairly clearly that they're trying to lead you to think a certain way. So that was already going on in the background. Plus, like I feel like you most witnesses have doubts that they push away. And I'd had those throughout my life, but you just kind of think, oh well, I'll I won't worry about that. Jehovah will fix it. Just focus on what I can do now. So with all of that combined, and there are no in-person meetings at the time, like the church services because of COVID. So I was at home a lot and I lost my job because of COVID. So I had time to research and spend a lot of time looking there. So I guess like it really was a combination of the time off the hamster wheel, as it were, the time period of COVID and everything else that was going on around me that led me to feel okay about clicking that link and going into the XJW subreddit. And I feel like I I spent a good week being terrified that I was gonna go to like Catholic hell or something else. Like what else could be true if it's not the witnesses, is it the generic like Christian heaven and hell? Is it something else entirely that I don't know about? And then I just got to the point where I thought I'm not gonna worry about it if I'm a kind person and being my authentic self and having fun. If there's a loving creator, I should be fine. And that lasted like a few months. And then I was like, you know what, I see no evidence of it. I'm not even gonna worry about it at all. I don't think there is a loving creator or even like an unloving creator. I just think we're all here and we should be working to make the world a better place now. Even though that sounds very idealistic and hopeful, that's where I'm at.

James Hogson 5:42

Certainly idealistic and hopeful, but admirable belief for sure. We should work to make this world, this life, the best it can be for as many people as possible.

Micki McAllen 5:51

Exactly.

James Hogson 5:52

And I I think uh you hear a lot of people who will say that leaving faith or changing your your mind on faith is a private matter. Shouldn't be out spoken about publicly or at least publicized. You have decided to go completely in the opposite direction and be very public in your talking about your experience and by being an online activist and personality with apostate in the name. Why did you feel it was important to be public and outspoken about your experiences?

Micki McAllen 6:23

So I think with the Jehovah's Witnesses specifically, there is a lot of pushback whenever somebody speaks out, because if they do, they can lose their family relationships. They might leave or fade away from the religion without being disfellowshipped or removed or kicked out or disassociating themselves. They generally call this like a fade out if they've done it purposefully, but otherwise people like drift away and they don't want to talk about it because they're afraid what their family members will say or if they'll cut them off. So I kind of understand that it can be hard to navigate that situation. But in my case, my mum had left the religion about 10 years prior. My brother was never baptized, and to be baptized in the Jehovah's Witnesses is like when all the rules really kick in, like you have to obey everything or else you could be kicked out. Whereas if you're not baptized, you can get away with whatever, just people might not hang out with you so much. So in my case, I didn't have family that was still in it, and there are so many stories on the XJW Reddit, on TikTok, on Instagram, Facebook, what have you, they're very similar to my own. And I just felt like I wanted to give a voice to the voiceless in a way, because there are so many people that can't speak out, whether it's that their wife and kids are still in, or their husbands still in, and they can't say anything without destroying that relationship. Whereas I can say whatever because no one's still in it, and I specifically want to highlight and encourage women, other ex-religious women, to speak out because it's such a patriarchal environment that towers women specifically in the witnesses, and I think in general, broader Christianity that women should stay silent, they're not equipped to to lead, they're not equipped to teach, and that's just not true. And I want more more women, more queer voices, and people of color as well in the Jehovah's Witnesses. They're not overtly racist, but there is some systemic issues in there. So I just want to amplify and encourage anyone that's able to speak out when they're ready.

Safety, Boundaries, And Online Backlash

James Hogson 8:41

Yeah, that's admirable as well to encourage others, and as you say, when it's when they're ready and it's safe to do so. Do you feel safe? And does the online world and social media allow a safe space for people to speak out if they wish to?

Micki McAllen 8:53

I feel like it can. You just have to be careful. I don't share a lot of my private life on my activism channel, which I do get a lot of pushback there where it's like, why is this your whole life? Why is that all you talk about? And I'm like, I'm only going to talk about this subject on this channel that is about that subject. I feel like I have to be careful in regards to that. I don't specifically say where I am all the time or post about everything that I'm doing in that regard.

James Hogson 9:20

What has the response been like? Have you heard from many people? Has it helped others?

Micki McAllen 9:24

Yes, I've had quite a few messages come through and it's always quite random because I see all the negative comments a lot, but a lot of people also private message me and tell me that my content has helped them, that my videos have helped them, even just to deconstruct or start the process to research the religion. One of my favorite things that happened was when I was on my way to moving from New Zealand to the UK, I went through the States and hung out with some XJWs that I'd known online for the last couple of years. And in New York, we had a meetup and there was a girl there that came up to me and started crying and said that she first came across my stuff and threw a phone, looked at it all, threw a phone at the wall and like never looked at it again for like a year. And then she realized, like after a year of still being a witness, realized, oh my gosh, there's like all these seeds of truth in the videos, and then started deconstructing from there. And that was really moving for me because I still have like imposter syndrome, I guess, where I'm like, why am I even doing this? It's just silly TikToks, and it's I feel like I'm just sometimes speaking into the void. But it's really nice to hear that it actually helps.

James Hogson 10:40

That must be very rewarding to know that it's cutting through to people then. And I guess they can consume it in a very private manner. And as you say, if it guides people in the way that you were able to find that through the Reddit forums, it's just providing another resource for people.

Micki McAllen 10:54

I have had people as well tell me that they won't follow my page because it says apostate, and they don't want, you know, their witness family members to see that they're following an apostate, but that they are watching my content. So I'm like, that's nice too. I don't mind, you don't have to follow my page as long as it helps.

Defining High-Control Groups

James Hogson 11:11

That's a very good point. And I wonder as well, could we draw out a bit more what life was like? When we define high control groups, what are some of the key characteristics that uh make a group uh what we would define or is defined in faith to faithless as a high control group?

Rules, Image, And Information Control

Enforcement Through Soft Power And Shunning

Micki McAllen 11:35

There's the famous byte model, behavior, information, thought, and emotion control from Stephen Hassan, where if you go through that individually, you can see each category the Jehovah's Witnesses or other high control religions tick off. A couple of examples with the witnesses, women were not allowed to wear trousers for a very long time, like at all, until maybe two years ago. And men were not allowed to have beards because it was like unbiblical or something. I don't know. They wanted everyone to look all clean-cut and American and corporate. It might not sound like much, but you are controlling what people wear and how adults present themselves. I couldn't have a nose ring, I couldn't have my pink hair like I did before, no tattoos. You always had to be like wearing modest clothing. You weren't allowed to look outside of the religion's sources, like they have an app, so you had to look in there for any questions that you might have. If you were like, Oh, are the witnesses a cult? They have their very own article explaining why they're not a cult, which I think is quite funny because if you need an article to explain that, then you very well might be a cult. So it's just the control of information. You can't hang out with people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, or you're heavily discouraged from hanging out with people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses. We weren't allowed to go to university as well. That's just changed last year. So it's a lot. People can be quite dismissive of it. Like, well, you could have just gone if you wanted to, without realizing the coercive control that's in place. Because if you did go to university, people might start like soft shunning you and not inviting you to things, or you'll be deemed as spiritually weak. And you you don't want that because you want to be looked on as good or a good example in the congregation, and but you don't want to be thought of as hurting Jehovah, which is a way that they'll frame it as well. They have a kid's cartoon about like a it's called Caleb and Sophia, and Caleb is invited to a classmate's birthday party and takes a cupcake, and it's like this whole emotional dilemma for him. And at the end of the day, you're not supposed to celebrate birthdays, so you shouldn't be celebrating with your worldly classmates who aren't witnesses, and you're hurting Jehovah's feelings if you do that. As her is just it's very constrictive and horrible.

James Hogson 14:07

I guess the question would be well, how are those rules enforced? Because some people might say, well, there's lots of groups or norms that we have in various parts of society that might dictate what's appropriate to wear, what spaces are appropriate to be in. There are various rules. I g I guess it comes down to how are they decided and then how are they enforced. Could you shed a bit of light on that?

First Steps Outside: Meeting The World

Micki McAllen 14:33

So it all comes from the governing body at the top, and they pretty much put out all of the convention videos, convention information, meeting videos and information, and that trickles down to like the circuit overseers who look after your territory, and then the elders in your congregation, and then your elders look after subgroups. So the congregation split into little groups, and then on top of that, you've got your family and how strict your family is. So I knew of people that weren't allowed to watch any Disney movies like Shrek or The Little Mermaid because of magic and wizardry and what have you. But other families, you're allowed to watch Disney movies and do whatever. So there's like the family dynamic, the head of the household situation, and then depending on if your father is an elder or your husband, that could impact how strictly the rules are carried out. So it's not like uh no one's gonna necessarily harm you physically, but there's gonna be this whole undercurrent of mental like coercion, and you realize that if you wear a skirt that's too short, or I don't know, say or do something that's Jehovah's Witness incorrect, you're gonna experience some form of punishment. You're not invited to local groups hanging out, or your friends might stop calling you so much. I'm thinking more about when I was a teenager, like it's very important to have your social friends and your social dynamics that you wouldn't be invited over because your skirt was too short, or you were allowed to read Harry Potter, but that's not okay according to another family, and then that family's father was like an elder, so it gets spread out around the congregation, all of a sudden you're just like the worst person ever for reading Harry Potter or Twilight or whatever else. I know there's a difference between you know, you go to work, you have a uniform, or you have a set of clothing that is work attire. It was like you had to be constantly if you were at the church at meetings at the Kingdom Hall, it was just woman in knee length or longer skirts and like a modest shirt, no shoulders, and men were in like a suit and tie. There was no ability to be a bit more casual about it. It's almost like you you just knew what you could and couldn't do from the way that it was presented to you and the information from the top. Even when it came to wearing jeans in your personal time, like your downtime, there was a video a couple of years ago that they played at the convention, which is, I should explain, the convention's a like a big three-day event where the witnesses go once a year to get more biblical information from their perspective, from their interpretation. And they had a video where the young girl was wearing jeans with rips in them, and you see her father say, I don't think that's appropriate, and then she was like, I'm ignoring you. And then the father goes to the mother and is like, You need to speak to her because that's not appropriate wear for a Jehovah's Witness. Or it's not an appropriate outfit for a Jehovah's Witness, even though they're at school or going out or what have you. And then the mother ends up sitting down with the daughter and explaining it in another way. So it's basically teaching all the Jehovah's Witnesses that are watching that oh, we shouldn't be doing that because that's not how a good Jehovah's Witness looks or represents the religion. And at the end of the video, the girl throws her ripped jeans in the bin. So it's like teaching you that way, it's not like they're sitting there going like, you can't wear ripped jeans. It's we're gonna show you a video of what a good Jehovah's Witness would do. And a good Jehovah's Witness throws her ripped jeans in the bin.

James Hogson 18:35

When it comes to leaving after 30 years, so really your first time as an adult, what were the biggest differences you noticed being outside the group rather than inside?

Micki McAllen 18:47

All my life I was told that worldly people, regular people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, were evil, horrible, mean, selfish, and led by the devil. So having deconstructed religion, I'm like, okay, so they're not led by the devil, but even mentally, it was very hard for me to get out of that conditioning that I should be afraid of people outside the religion. And fortunately, I had the most amazing experiences with everyone that I've come across. I felt like an alien and basically had to learn how to be a normal person. And I had some very kind, loving, like generous friends who took me under their wing and helped me be a normal person. And I've had random conversations with people all over the place that have just, I feel like, opened my life up in a way that if I was a witness, I would have been like, I can't talk to you. And, you know, because what are you talking about? It's got nothing to do with the the real true life of being a witness. So it was nice to just be more open to conversations and experiences.

What Effective Support Looks Like

James Hogson 20:02

And I know you now help others going through that process as well, being involved with faith-to-faith less. And we featured many representatives on the channel here previously. But for you, what does effective support look like for people leaving high control religion?

Rebuilding Community And Agency

Micki McAllen 20:18

I think the hardest thing when you leave is the loss of community, at least like in the role that I have as like a peer support volunteer who helps with like in-person meetups. It's so important to have the space to talk and to find other people who understand what you've been through, especially initially. It helps you to connect with other people in a way that you couldn't when you were in your respective high control religion and to talk about it and see, oh, they were doing the exact same thing that we were doing, only they had different words for it. And here we are, like on the other side of it, trying to navigate like life and undo all of the conditioning and control that we had on us for quite a while. But I would say the community, just having someone to talk to and a safe space is so important when you first leave because it's very isolating and confusing. And so it's really helpful to have people around that have navigated that time before so they can sort of help you out a little bit.

James Hogson 21:21

And how are you rebuilding your own community and helping others to do the same?

Norway’s Case On Funding And Shunning

Micki McAllen 21:26

So I feel like initially having the XJW community was really helpful, but on a broader scale, um, just meeting people, finding out what I was interested in before, or what I wasn't allowed to be interested in, like just trying things and going to different groups that like I love art, so doing anything to do with art, I'll meet other people that have something to do with art, and we're all on the same page. I'm doing something that I enjoy. I think I've made a video about this recently, especially when it comes to friendships. When you first leave, it's very hard to understand that friendships, relationships, and communities. Community takes time. It's not going to happen like that necessarily. It takes time. You have to actually get to know people. You don't just have this instant connection because you're in the same religion or worship the same god. You now have to find different ways to connect and to show up with people that you basically have to learn from scratch because you couldn't do it before. It was just automatic friendships and friendships, community, it takes time. And as well as that, you should be well, I encourage people to start building themselves back up because it wasn't possible to be like a full human before. You were just sort of an empty shell. I feel like I was an empty shell, like a sim, waiting for someone to move me wherever they wanted. Whereas now I'm like, I have agency and I can say, I like this and I don't like that. I feel like that's really important.

James Hogson 22:58

And I know as well you're involved or raising awareness for a current case which is developing in Norway. Could you shed some light on that, please?

Micki McAllen 23:08

So in Norway, I think from 2021, the Norwegian government pulled funding from the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the Jehovah's Witnesses then decided to spend time and money to fight that. The reason they pulled funding was because the Jehovah's Witnesses shunning policies like the disfellowshipping and disassociating, you get shunned. And in particular, they shun children, minors. And the Norwegian government was like, we don't want to be funding an organization that does that because it's quite harmful. And it's gotten all the way to the Supreme Court, which happened last weekend or last week, the beginning of February. And it's basically a wrap-up because the Norwegian government was like, we need to settle this late once and for all, because last year they went to court and the witnesses, I won't say won that round, but it was like the Norwegian government couldn't prove without a doubt that it caused psychological harm to children. And then it ended up back at the Supreme Court in Norway this past week. So both sides got to sort of recap it in front of the I think there were five judges, and they're just going to take some time now to examine everything and then come to a ruling and go from there. But a massive part of this is that the Jehovah's Witnesses tell members that they are entirely self-funded, that they run on donations from members, from regular Jehovah's Witnesses. And I did not realize until I left that they apply for these funding grants and benefits from governments around the world. I think Sweden recently as well pulled funding because of the discriminatory practices of witnesses when it comes to the LGBTQ community. Like you can't get married, you can't be gay in the Jehovah's Witnesses. So yeah, there's a couple of things going on at the moment. So keeping an eye on that.

Shunning Children And Family Breakdown

James Hogson 25:17

There's a lot to take in there. Thank you for sharing and explaining the situation. Obviously, we'll be following the case and may well bring on to for an update at some point. I'm curious though, how shunning works with children, with minors. What's actually involved there? I mean, how are they then cared for and their needs met?

Advice For Doubters And Researchers

Micki McAllen 25:37

A lot of ex-Jehovah's Witnesses who tell their stories talk about being made homeless. So, you know, if you're 15, 16, 17, sometimes the parents will kick you out because of your being disfellowshiped and then therefore being shunned. Some parents still will have the child in the home or the minor in the home, but it will be like a strained relationship. It won't be a proper full-on family relationship like you would have if you were still a Jehovah's Witness or if you were a normal family. So it depends on how the parents go about it, but I do know a lot of people that were made homeless.

James Hogson 26:18

Yeah, that's quite shocking. Yeah. If you have a message for anyone who's doubting, you know, that those people you mentioned who maybe watch your content but don't feel comfortable enough to follow just yet, what would you like to say?

Decult, Advocacy, And Ending Mandated Shunning

Micki McAllen 26:32

I would say follow your doubts and research. Look at every angle, do something that the governing body has told you not to do, and look outside of their sources and you'll find it. Like I cannot recommend JWFacts.com enough because it's got everything there. It's laid out in a way that you can easily understand what they keep hidden from you and what you need to know. And just like even outside that, if you're not a Jehovah's Witness and you're having doubts about your own other religion, follow your doubts and research it and prove to yourself either way, but there is life outside of religion, and it's just, I cannot also emphasize this enough. It's so much better. It's so much better to free yourself from that mental cage.

James Hogson 27:20

And what are you working on next?

Micki McAllen 27:24

At the moment, I'm hoping to go to Decult in New Zealand in October. I volunteer with an organization called Stop Mandated Shunning, where we're trying to stop mandated shunning. But De Cult is in New Zealand and it's like a conference to raise awareness about cults and what like cult survivors need, uh, what the government needs to know, what mental health professionals need to know, and how to support people that leave high control religion. And I'm hoping to go as like a representative of Stop Band Aided Shunning and also as myself to talk about my experiences. Because I feel like just as an aside, you can decide not to talk to someone, right? For your own mental health, for whatever reason, you don't want them in your life. It should be your decision and not do it in like a cruel way, but you don't have to talk to everyone. Whereas mandated shunning is the leaders or someone else telling you not to talk to someone or else. And that shouldn't be a thing. That's a very big part of being a Jehovah's Witness and a massive fair control tactics. So that's what we're trying to stop.

James Hogson 28:37

Well, good luck with that. And with everything that you're doing, thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Micki McAllen 28:41

Thank you.

Quickfire Close And Final Reflections

James Hogson 28:42

And best of luck with the communities that you're building and developing. It sounds great. I have to ask, do you now own a pair of ripped jeans?

Micki McAllen 28:50

I do.

James Hogson 28:51

That's great to hear. And before we go, we do have our standard closing question, which it it seems a little trite given everything we've spoken about so far. But is there anything else which you've changed your mind on recently?

Micki McAllen 29:04

I feel like giving more grace to people who are stuck in either a religious mindset or in a more of a culty situation where nobody's gonna get it, no matter what you say. They have to come to it to themselves. So just let people be. I feel like that's a big thing. Because before I I would get all very worked up. Oh my goodness, can't you see what's happening here? But now I'm just like, oh, they'll come to it and on their own and let them live their life the way they see best. But I'm here if you have any questions.

James Hogson 29:39

That's a wonderful attitude. Micki McAllen, Apostate Barbie, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now.

Humanise Live 29:46

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